Marilyn Manson

[Graz]

Born Villain doesn’t remind me of any other album, it sounds unique in his catalog. Maybe that’s why I’m drawn to it. It doesn’t really trigger the same kind of emotional response like the many albums before it did. I can just vibe with it and it’s cool for me. I know it’s not for everyone.

[HWB]

Do you really think Trent would ever be influenced by any of these albums lol. They're not good

Trent was absolutely feeling impressed when he heard "I Want To Murder You Like They Do In The Movies" who could have thought someone could make a 9 minutes long song that is so empty and totally undeserving of its lenght? Really impressive way to let down the listener in a huge way!

Goddamn, I really do hate this album so much lol.

[HWB]

Bingo.

If Trent came out and vouched for Manson's last decade and said THEOL, Born Villain and Heaven Upside Down were huge influences when he was writing Hes Marks and the EP trilogy, the general attitude towards those albums would shift dramatically..

Seeing how people still think "Lulu" from Metallica/Lou Reed is terrible even when Bowie himself praised it I don't think so. I don't think people would be willing to like something just cause their favorite artist liked it or was even inspired it, that would be pretty sheepy, frankly.

And like others have mentioned, I don't see what Trent could be inspired by? It's not like Manson was making any unique music here or something we haven't heard from other bands before, I don't know what Manson did on THEOL for anyone to feeel inspired in any capacity.

[Prettybrokenspiral]

Do you really think Trent would ever be influenced by any of these albums lol. They're not good

You're missing the point. Trent would likely not be influenced by any of these albums, no..

But, if he was, or had he produced any of them, people here who always complain about them would have a much different attitude towards them.

Let's say, for instance, Trent had produced Born Villain and said at the time "We set out to strip ourselves of any fears or inhibitions of what the audience might think and came up with this gloriously challenging record that's not very immediate and really forces you to spend time with it, peeling back the layers and getting in touch with the heaviness and the violence of the music and the lyrics we achieved here. Me and Brian are really proud of this work and it exceeded our expectations. We hope someone out there hears this and feels what we felt when this was being made.."

People would touting that record like it was ACSS for the modern era. Guaranteed..

[Tom]

You're missing the point. Trent would likely not be influenced by any of these albums, no..

But, if he was, or had he produced any of them, people here who always complain about them would have a much different attitude towards them.

Let's say, for instance, Trent had produced Born Villain and said at the time "We set out to strip ourselves of any fears or inhibitions of what the audience might think and came up with this gloriously challenging record that's not very immediate and really forces you to spend time with it, peeling back the layers and getting in touch with the heaviness and the violence of the music and the lyrics we achieved here. Me and Brian are really proud of this work and it exceeded our expectations. We hope someone out there hears this and feels what we felt when this was being made.."

People would touting that record like it was ACSS for the modern era. Guaranteed..

I don't think so. It's not like anyone here has formed their opinions about those albums because TR didn't produce them, or because he said anything negative about them. So far as I know he's said nothing. Folks just don't like them very much. In general, I don't think peoples' tastes here are so governed by the whims of TR - don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan, but I like plenty of stuff that I know he doesn't care for, and he's recommended plenty of things which aren't my bag. I'd imagine most others here are similar.

And the counterfactual you're trying to entertain isn't very illuminating: if TR had produced those albums, they would have been very different, and he certainly wouldn't have been influenced by them unless they'd have been very different. So, what we're effectively being asked to entertain is that if those albums were very different - better, essentially - then more people would like them and fewer people would dump on them. Well duh.

[fillow]

Do people like 2wo album because Trent produced it? Didn't think so

[HWB]

Do people like 2wo album because Trent produced it? Didn't think so

I don't really like Niggy Stadust, at all, really.

Not only Trent produced that, but he also performs on plenty of the songs, a lot of the tracks are Fragile outtakes (I like those on ther own just don't like their usage here) and Trent has not only written down a statement about the album but also about specific tracks which is rare for him to do.

So, I don't think Trent's lack of involevement has anything to do with people's reception here of Manson's recent music. Maybe people would indeed be more forigving, perhaps first influences would be little bit more biased, but I don't think it would make such a big difference as Prettybrokenspiral claims.

[hellospaceboy]

I don't really like Niggy Stadust, at all, really.

Funny, it was good enough to get me into Saul Williams, but now it's my least favorite of his albums! Volcanic Sunlight is a masterpiece tho

[firewlker]

I feel mostly the same way, though I think the record is largely just extremely lifeless and forgettable and not, generally speaking, outright objectionable. During the run-up to its release, Manson and Twiggy on multiple occasions, I believe, suggested that it was a more "punk rock Mechanical Animals." I'm curious, does anyone actually get that vibe from it? I'm more in-line with your take that Eat Me, Drink Me is a campy Halloween Mechanical, though I'd never before thought of that I'd be hard-pressed to name anything about Born Villain that reminds me of that record.

Manson always promote a new record comparing to some classic of his own (new one being a exception I guess), even though isn't even 1/4 closer. Even when he was a music journalist he made a review about his band which didn't even had something done, that's how he launched his music career so I'm kind of surprised people didn't realized yet he's kind of a compulsive liar.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

Portrait of an American Family is by far the biggest shitbomb of any Manson record ever and the one I spin least. Irony is Trent had a hand in that one (not nearly as much as ACSS which is basically a NIN record with Brian on vocals). I will take Eat Me Drink Me or High End of Low ANY day of the week over Portrait. Portrait is a cool scare mommy and daddy shock rock record when you are in 8th grade...Its basically like a GWAR record....I outgrew that album by the time I turned 14.....At least EMDM and THEOL he tried to stop shocking people and just focused on music...which is all I ever wanted from Brian Warner....Just focus on the music

[firewlker]

Portrait of an American Family is by far the biggest shitbomb of any Manson record ever and the one I spin least. Irony is Trent had a hand in that one (not nearly as much a ACSS which is basically a NIN record with Brian on vocals). I will take Eat Me Drink Me or High End of Low ANY day of the week over Portrait. Portrait is a cool scare mommy and daddy shock rock record when you are in 8th grade...Its basically like a GWAR record....I outgrew that album by the time I turned 14.....At least EMDM and THEOL he tried to stop shocking people and just focused on music...which is all I ever wanted from Brian Warner....Just focus on the music

To me POAAF is kinda overrated. There's some songs I like from it but it always comes to my mind that POAAF actually it's the last Spooky Kids album while ACSS being officially Marilyn Manson debut record, even though POAAF doesn't have the 'Spooky Kids' on the name. Even considering that POAAF demos X final product doesn't really change that much in comparison of ACSS demos X final product.

And maybe what I'm about to say now it's unpopular opinion or not but: Reznor production skills shines a lot on his own material (NIN, HTDA, scores) but besides some little exceptions, it lacks a lot on other people work.

To be fair, many bands do this. Deftones, for example, often like to compare their current latest LP to White Pony.

There's a lot of Manson words that made me wrote that line about he being a compulsive liar, but I don't want to extend much about that. But also you're pretty right on yours too.

[Jon]

To be fair, many bands do this. Deftones, for example, often like to compare their current latest LP to White Pony.

"Ignore your initial impressions! This is exactly like 'xyz', you picky fuck!" (I know it's going to seem like I'm picking on you...)

The latest song is pretty much 5/10 material. I would rather that Manson release a dark/alt country record at this point, but yawn. Those people (not you) trying to legitimize his current dirge via discounting his past are 100% off.

"That record is sequenced by Trent Reznor, you biased fuck!"

[Krazy]

I absolutely <3 POAAF. Never even heard of Manson or his band prior to hearing them open up for NIN in Madison November 1994. Fun fact: Jim Rose Circus was actually the “band” before NIN, MM was the third band in that bill. Manson and the band blew me away that evening, and I have a really hard time getting into live acts that I’ve never heard recording of before. The rawness of Portrait is avoidable trait for me. And yes, nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

[Graz]

Portrait is a classic. It was actually the 3rd album I got after ACS & SLC. I spun it regularly for a close to a decade, it will always play some part of my rotation, no mater how old I get.

[Jinsai]

Potrait is a goofy album that is like halloween shlock combined with spooky whatever.. it's a really fun album. I remember when I first heard Antichrist Superstar and i was annoyed with how serious he was taking himself.

I guess that's kind of a lost perspective at this point. I still think everything up through Mechanical Animals is really good, but nothing after that does much for me.

And even though I love Mechanical Animals on a lot of levels, the lyric "as hollow as the O in god" is the dumbest shit ever. You have to try to come up with something that fucking dumb.

[wight rabbit]

Do people like 2wo album because Trent produced it? Didn't think so

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyeurs_(album)

Nine Inch Nails' Trent Reznor receives executive-producer credit, with the actual production duties being handled by Bob Marlette and Skinny Puppy's Dave Ogilvie.

[kas23]

I absolutely <3 POAAF. Never even heard of Manson or his band prior to hearing them open up for NIN in Madison November 1994. Fun fact: Jim Rose Circus was actually the “band” before NIN, MM was the third band in that bill. Manson and the band blew me away that evening, and I have a really hard time getting into live acts that I’ve never heard recording of before. The rawness of Portrait is avoidable trait for me. And yes, nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

This is a shot in the dark. But does anyone remember the music they played on the speakers between the acts? It was like spooky circus music or whatever. It has always stuck with me, but I have no idea what it was or if it was played at every venue of the tour.

[wight rabbit]

That's news to me. Didn't Trent take credit/blame for it in subsequent interviews?

I completely forgot about that project, and looked it up out of curiosity. So, I honestly don't know. As an executive producer, however, he probably heard a lot of the songs and provided feedback. Perhaps interviews misconstrued that?

[Prettybrokenspiral]

Portrait of an American Family is by far the biggest shitbomb of any Manson record ever and the one I spin least. Irony is Trent had a hand in that one (not nearly as much as ACSS which is basically a NIN record with Brian on vocals). I will take Eat Me Drink Me or High End of Low ANY day of the week over Portrait. Portrait is a cool scare mommy and daddy shock rock record when you are in 8th grade...Its basically like a GWAR record....I outgrew that album by the time I turned 14.....At least EMDM and THEOL he tried to stop shocking people and just focused on music...which is all I ever wanted from Brian Warner....Just focus on the music

Portrait is still my favorite thing he's ever done, which is more than enough to get me burned on the cross with Manson purists, but I don't care. He'll never be as fun or as off the wall weird as he was on that record. Sure, Mechanical Animals and TGAOG have more than their share of irony, but on Portrait it actually sounded fresh and unlike anything of its time, or even since..

This was that brief moment in time when the band was virtually poor and only had their talent and their live performance to get them over. But the songs are definitely there. Just one gonzo rock banger after another on that record. Everything that came after Portrait might be more accomplished and more noticeable, but Portrait still to this day engages me from its creepy start to its off-the-rails finish like none of his other records do. He never again sounded quite as nuts and anarchic as he did on that album..

[Einzige]

INCOMING HERETICAL OPINIONS ALERT

Manson did his best work- MA thru and including EMDM - without Trent. Manson by no means requires Trent to work.

What he does need is a musical right-hand man who he respects enough to keep him focused. I think Manson has ADHD or something, because all of his records since Sköld left have been stylistically all over the place, sans TPE. Manson definitely works best as a concept record band, bit it's hard to find a big concept if you can't commit to one sound on an album.

It's like...

POAAF is the White Zombie record. ACSS is the Skinny Puppy record. MA is the David Bowie record. HW is the... well, this one gets a pass from me because it owns. GAOG is the KMFDM record. EMDM is The Cure record.

THEOL, BV and HUD don't have strong identities of their own, and are the worse for it.

If I were Manson's manager, I'd recommend that he pick up the remaining crew from Type O Negative or something and do that. I'd love for him to do the Type O album, the Sisters of Mercy album, or whatever, as long as it was a consistent influence throughout the album.

[Krazy]

This is a shot in the dark. But does anyone remember the music they played on the speakers between the acts? It was like spooky circus music or whatever. It has always stuck with me, but I have no idea what it was or if it was played at every venue of the tour.

This can probably get answered in the “Random NIN questions/thoughts”. Threads. Or maybe ask @ninlive ???...

EDIT: no way can I remember that. That was like 26 years ago, only remember bits and pieces of the concert at this point in time. Just know that entire night was awesome and blew me away as a 17 y.o.

[rampface]

You're missing the point. Trent would likely not be influenced by any of these albums, no..

But, if he was, or had he produced any of them, people here who always complain about them would have a much different attitude towards them.

Let's say, for instance, Trent had produced Born Villain and said at the time "We set out to strip ourselves of any fears or inhibitions of what the audience might think and came up with this gloriously challenging record that's not very immediate and really forces you to spend time with it, peeling back the layers and getting in touch with the heaviness and the violence of the music and the lyrics we achieved here. Me and Brian are really proud of this work and it exceeded our expectations. We hope someone out there hears this and feels what we felt when this was being made.."

People would touting that record like it was ACSS for the modern era. Guaranteed..

Okay but you're describing a record that doesn't exist. You can put that on a sticker and slap it on the cover but nothing from that quote is accurate. Manson didn't "set out to strip himself of any fears" on Born Villain. He was a drunk and sloppy mess who didn't give a shit about the material and lazily repeats 3 or 4 of the same phrases ad nauseam on every song. Born Villain is not a "goriously challenging record" that requires patience and time. It's a vapid slog with no rewards. It's not heavy (in fact, it's quite subdued and the tempo is painfully boring). It's not violent (unless you consider accidently breaking your absinthe glass in a drunken stupor towards the bathroom a "violent act"). And if you consider the lyrics "you're just a ring tone that happens when you get sick enough to call the one with bullet holes, bullet holes for eyes" anything other than drivel, then there's no hope articulating how fucking amateur and pathetic Manson's lyrical content has become through the years.

The problem isn't the producer or attaching a respected artist's endorsement. It's Manson! Plain and simple. He doesn't care anymore and it's obvious from the quality of his recent works. Otherwise, this discussion wouldn't come up time and time again. So I vehemently disagree with the assumption that Trent or anyone else's involvement would have any positive or negative perception of the record. Born Villain fucking sucks.

[rampface]

THEOL, BV and HUD don't have strong identities of their own, and are the worse for it.

This is it. If Manson would return to each record having a distinct character, theme, design, etc., it would make a huge difference.

[Einzige]

This is it. If Manson would return to each record having a distinct character, theme, design, etc., it would make a huge difference.

I've always wanted him to fully embrace the goth shit and get a violinist on-board for a record. He toured with Rasputina once; dark, medieval music isn't necessarily outside of his wheelhouse.

Always wanted a dark wave Manson album, too, ala.Ego Likeness or Blutengel. Hell, grab his good friend Billy Corgan, lock them in a room with the Adore record and see what develops from there.

If he cuts back on the alcohol, I'd suggest that he has a good decade of musical longevity left. I don't see a reason he can't become kind of a King Diamond-like figure, telling spooky fables through music.

Finally, I think his fifteenth record should be his last (WAC will be his eleventh LP). Marilyn Manson, a double album. The first half, Marilyn should be Mechanical Animals-esque, full of ballads, acoustic work, and synths, and should be produced by Billy Corgan. The second half, Manson, would be full of ACSS-style bangers and creepy noise interludes, and produced by Trent Reznor. Full circle. Maybe even close on the boat ride chant from Willy Wonka.

Hey, a boy can dream

[Prettybrokenspiral]

Okay but you're describing a record that doesn't exist. You can put that on a sticker and slap it on the cover but nothing from that quote is accurate. Manson didn't "set out to strip himself of any fears" on Born Villain. He was a drunk and sloppy mess who didn't give a shit about the material and lazily repeats 3 or 4 of the same phrases ad nauseam on every song. Born Villain is not a "goriously challenging record" that requires patience and time. It's a vapid slog with no rewards. It's not heavy (in fact, it's quite subdued and the tempo is painfully boring). It's not violent (unless you consider accidently breaking your absinthe glass in a drunken stupor towards the bathroom a "violent act"). And if you consider the lyrics "you're just a ring tone that happens when you get sick enough to call the one with bullet holes, bullet holes for eyes" anything other than drivel, then there's no hope articulating how fucking amateur and pathetic Manson's lyrical content has become through the years.

The problem isn't the producer or attaching a respected artist's endorsement. It's Manson! Plain and simple. He doesn't care anymore and it's obvious from the quality of his recent works. Otherwise, this discussion wouldn't come up time and time again. So I vehemently disagree with the assumption that Trent or anyone else's involvement would have any positive or negative perception of the record. Born Villain fucking sucks.

And yet, you're so passionate in your dislike for it, which would probably tickle Brian Warner pink. Nearly 10 years after that horrendous record that's got you so emotional, and you're still following the guy. This dude has a hold on his fan base -- for better or for worse -- unlike any other I've seen, with the exception of Axl Rose..

[rampface]

And yet, you're so passionate in your dislike for it, which would probably tickle Brian Warner pink. Nearly 10 years after that horrendous record that's got you so emotional, and you're still following the guy. This dude has a hold on his fan base -- for better or for worse -- unlike any other I've seen, with the exception of Axl Rose..

If anything, I'm passionate because I was a huge fan and grew up on his music. I started listening to Manson in 1995 when I was 10 years old. My teenage years were peak fandom. My emotional connection to Manson's music has long since faded but I still keep up with him for the nostalgia (also, it's not a difficult task to add someone on instagram so I hardly put any effort into "still following the guy"). And I would hope that if Brian, for whatever reason, decided my opinion was important to his career that he would be embarrassed he released something so half-assed and get his shit together to start making music that matters. You're probably right though and it would "tickle him" and that's the problem: he no longer gives a shit.

*this comment was written while lying in bed holding a phone near my face and seething in rage. Ugh I'm sooooo mad and emotional right now

[ManBurning]

Surprised to see some negative opinions about "Portrait" around here...
That album is awesome.

It's fun, cheesy rock 'n roll at it's finest.
The record doesn't take itself seriously. It's goofy, it's fun. It's an easy listen. Not to mention Lunchbox is probably in my top 5 Manson songs of all time.
I still have my Lunchbox CD single. I used to be a mad Manson collector, but I sold off everything except the first 4 records and the lunchbox single. Those are the definitive Manson records.
If I was forced to add 1 and only 1 "post Holywood" record to my collection, it would hands down be The Pale Emperor. But the rest are not worth taking up shelf space.

[Einzige]

Born Villain has one of his absolute best tracks on it, and that's "The Flowers Of Evil". It's complete and total Sisters of Mercy worship, but I adore Andrew Eldritch and have never expected Manson to sound original anyway. (I'm still pulling for Mazza to record an "Under The Gun" or "Temple of Love" cover.)

The title track is killer, too. It sounds like it could have been on Holy Wood, maybe after "Valentine's Day".

These two and "No Reflection" are the only things I really like from the record. Though "The Gardener" is a much better as a spoken word piece than "Wow", which a lot of you seem to enjoy and which I don't get.

I'd murder for a Manson record that sounded like "Flowers Of Evil" and "Saturnalia" front-to-back. Total 80s goth rock.

Edit: I guess EMDM was a bit of a goth rock record, but I mean the more Sisters of Mercy/Christian Death postpunk side of goth and less the frilly romanticism of The Cure.

[ManBurning]

Born Villain has one of his absolute best tracks on it, and that's "The Flowers Of Evil".
Though "The Gardener" is a much better as a spoken word piece than "Wow", which a lot of you seem to enjoy and which I don't get.

Both those songs are awesome. 2 very under appreciated songs on Born Villain. I feel like those 2 songs get glanced over a lot for some reason.

Finally, I think his fifteenth record should be his last (WAC will be his eleventh LP).

You are being incredibly generous thinking Manson has 4 more records in him after he releases Chaos.
I'd be surprised if we get 1 more, maybe 2 at the absolute most after this.

[Einzige]

I dunno. A lot of people treat Manson like he's on death's door, and have since THEOL. If he is trying to get to fifteen records,and we discount SLC and LWF, that leaves four records. At an average of two years per album, he'd 'only' be 58 by the time he hit it.

Lessee... I have a post up at Provider Module about this.


Including only studio album releases, and accounting only for the official U.S. release dates:


Portrait Of An American Family -> Antichrist Superstar: 812 days [July 19, 1994-October 8, 1996]

Antichrist Superstar -> Mechanical Animals: 707 days [October 8, 1996-September 15, 1998] <- Shortest wait

Mechanical Animals -> Holy Wood (In The Shadow Of The Valley Of Death): 791 days [September 15. 1998-November 14, 2000]

Holy Wood (In The Shadow Of The Valley Of Death) -> The Golden Age Of Grotesque: 910 days [November 14, 2000-May 13, 2003]

The Golden Age Of Grotesque -> Eat Me, Drink Me: 1,484 days [May 13, 2003-June 5, 2007] <- Longest wait

Eat Me, Drink Me -> The High End Of Low: 721 days [June 5, 2007-May 26, 2009]

The High End Of Low -> Born Villain: 1,071 days [May 26, 2009-May 1, 2012]

Born Villain -> The Pale Emperor: 994 days [May 1, 2012-January 20, 2015]

The Pale Emperor -> Heaven Upside Down: 990 days [January 20, 2015-October 6, 2017]

It's been a shorter wait for Heaven Upside Down than it was for Eat Me, Drink Me, Born Villain or, barely, The Pale Emperor.

Oh, yeah: it'll have been 8,482 days between the release of Portrait Of An American Family and Heaven Upside Down.

The discography ranked by wait time, shortest to longest, and treating Portrait as a non-entity:

Mechanical Animals
The High End Of Low
Holy Wood (In The Shadow Of The Valley Of Death)
Antichrist Superstar
The Golden Age Of Grotesque
Heaven Upside Down
The Pale Emperor
Born Villain
Eat Me, Drink Me



Yeah, I can see him hitting fifteen records. Especially if he condenses one into a double album. I think that's probably what he's aiming for - the fifteen records part - because then he gets to kick back and look like a bit of a mad genius again for "predicting" it.