Marilyn Manson

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

That did happen. I don't know if you're around the same age as I am, or if you were there for the release of The Fragile. But the critics kinda hated it. Where it it cropped up in media, it seemed like it was more or less mocked. On a personal level, the other Nine Inch Nails fans I knew thought it was pretentious garbage, too long, and not hard enough. If they couldn't get Spiral 2, Impossible Pain, or something on the level of Broken, they didn't want anything to do with it.

I remember the backlash against The Fragile when it came out and people were complaining it didn't sound like TDS and it got swallowed whole by the Korns and Limp Bizkits on the Billboard charts and totally ignored by MTV. But within a few years that album had gained acceptance and acclaim within the NIN fanbase. By 05, people were complaining With Teeth didn't sound like The Fragile...Within 5 years The Fragile went from hated to beloved.....THEOL came out 11 years ago and is still frowned upon. if the tide hasn't turned by now.....It ain't turning

[tony.parente]

I remember the backlash against The Fragile when it came out and people were complaining it didn't sound like TDS and it got swallowed whole by the Korns and Limp Bizkits on the Billboard charts and totally ignored by MTV. But within a few years that album had gained acceptance and acclaim within the NIN fanbase. By 05, people were complaining With Teeth didn't sound like The Fragile...Within 5 years The Fragile went from hated to beloved.....THEOL came out 11 years ago and is still frowned upon. if the tide hasn't turned by now.....It ain't turning

I will say that THEoL is the last traditional "Mansony" album with the theatrics, the attempt at concept and him giving a shit about the presentation in terms of live shows, his look and the packaging.

[Jinsai]

I am honestly baffled that there's people who don't think this is the best thing he's done since Mechanical Animals.

@sesquipedelism, I am fascinated by the way you internalize lyrics. As someone who wrote some (and often regretted doing so), it's interesting to hear that sort of approach/appreciation, where a single line could ruin a song for you. I am NOT saying this is a bad thing... if anything, I remember falling in absolute love with the Richard D James album, and then the song Milkman came on, and the vocal saying "I would like some milk from the milkman's wife's tits" bothered the living shit out of me.

Then I found out that the song wasn't initially intended to be on the album, and was only included on the US release as a bonus selling point. Which was weird. But in some weird way, knowing that the song wasn't supposed to be on the album made it fine. And then suddenly I liked the song.

I guess what I'm saying is, I think I understand the off putting nature of the "and then I put you away" lyric on Broken Needle. I like "never put you away," as a twist on it, but if it's not there it doesn't really bother me. I think the initial concept is effective. It's a VERY obviously sexualized metaphor for a damaged relationship, but it's self-deprecating... "Put you away" w/ a vinyl record means you're taking care of it. You're not throwing it out. You're treasuring it, and "never play you again" means you can't really bear to think about it, so you file that experience away on a shelf.

I really like that. It's more mature than most of his concepts. And now, I feel like a complete idiot, over-analyzing lyrics from Marilyn Manson in 2020. I hate this year...

The album's good though!

[Space Suicide]

I will say that THEoL is the last traditional "Mansony" album with the theatrics, the attempt at concept and him giving a shit about the presentation in terms of live shows, his look and the packaging.

Eat Me, Drink Me

[tony.parente]

Eat Me, Drink Me

THEoL was surprisingly thick with substance.

http://www.nachtkabarett.com/TheHighEndOfLow/Era

[Jinsai]

Also an English major! What a dumb dumb idea for us smart/clever people to major in! I blame my 18-year-old self for not really putting a lot of thought into that...

In your case, we read the lyrics as a scenario in which a damaged and lovestruck/needy Manson cannot resist interacting with this princess even though he knows he will damage her just by connecting.

Or, really, damage himself by thinking about doing that; that he interacts and does damage her, it's removed in this way that seems to imply it hurts so much to even do that. At that point, we have to call upon the author to swear upon the authenticity of it.

Then he cuts himself off after brief communion—he gets one brief moment of love and connection, but knows that any more love and connection, though it might soothe him, will hurt her. So he puts her away and never, ever plays her again. In this reading, future inattention (I'll never, ever play you again means, for a record, that it sits useless and mute on a shelf) is not a statement on/indictment of the woman's newfound, Manson-inflicted undesirability, it is instead a statement of reverence and protection—"Even though in you I might find some moments of pleasure and comfort, I promise never to connect with you again, because I know more damage would destroy you."

Here's where I totally disagree... "playing the record" isn't even necessarily making contact. It might just be thoughts you can't kick. Good times, bad memories.
Telling yourself you'll "never play it again" is probably intentionally dishonest, and that's why it's kinda great imo. You will "play the record again," even if you don't want to, and then you'll "put it away" again.

[Jinsai]

Another interesting take. So when he's digging into the grooves and damaging the record, which would be a memory/thought, he's doing what to it? That damage to the other is sort of the central focus of the song.

I would consider that to be a "trip down memory lane" for better or worse? I feel the "record" analogy is so blatant that it was meant to imply memory, even if the needle/groove is obviously implying physical sex. Not to get too into this, but the metaphor could be considered masturbatory.

The idea of damage is related to memory. I would say we go through relationships in our heads in ways that fluctuate and get increasingly confusing as time goes on. I can identify with the concept that someone you were close to in a deep and sexual way has been "wounded" from that intimacy in a way that the "male in the relationship" can't completely identify with after it's over. I don't see it as implying something abusive or narcissistic. Even in a non-sexual context, I think the idea that plutonic interaction can "scratch people up" is relatable in a non-literal sense.

Maybe I'm overthinking it.

[Space Suicide]

Finally got my order in the mail today.



Deluxe Splatter vinyl variant + 7" along with the standard CD and the Target Exclusive with the acoustic tracks.

Ah well.

[Jinsai]

Yeah, I'm not buying this one. I think the memory idea doesn't make sense in the context of the song. And I definitely don't get the impression it's masturbatory;

OK, let's separate it on a literal level. Play a record that upsets you, then you put it away carefully (I'm of course adding that part, but to any record collector...)
The whole process feels masturbatory there from the start... there's an easily extracted component to it. It's easy to see it as masturbatory, it's ok, I'm easy and loose with how I get excited when it comes to lyrics. But isolationist hobbies are, almost by definition masturbatory. Record-collecting is pretty isolationist. You might find a partner who feels the same way, but...

I don't know, there's a REALLY thin line between being a pretentious asshole and explaining how you feel in a vulnerable way, and I think he rides it here perfectly

[Jinsai]

Yeah, the kind of fetishistic record collecting I imagine we all think of when we hear the phrase is to a degree an inherently isolationist hobby, sure. But if that were something you'd be reading into the song's central metaphor, I think the solipsism of it would absolutely count out your previous suggestion that "I'll put you away/I'll never ever play you again" was a protective sentiment intended as an out of the ordinary act of affection for the protected object. If you read isolationism into the metaphor, I think "I'll never ever play you again" takes on a more "if I can't have you nobody will"/John Fowles The Collector possession/jealousy dynamic. Which is to say the song's narrator becomes a giant sack of shit.

Which I find less interesting and compelling than the protection/affection reading and, if it were the case, a fucking long way to go around to rationalizing the original reading of the song in which the narrator is an asshole suggesting the worst punishment that could happen to the love object is the withholding of his attention.

The reading of the lyric (or lyrics in general), to me, really hinges on whether or not the author is being genuine. That's a thing with lyrics for me... I feel the best ones are dishonest. They're presentations of an emotional response, not some biographical thing. It's rare that I hear people being really genuine about their life and feelings and I get invested. There's some exceptions, Blood on the Tracks, or something really horrible and confessional like the Tori Amos song Me and a Gun, but otherwise, I think it's best when lyrics exaggerate, lie, tell a story of some kind... It's a process of "venting" that isn't related by just telling someone about stuff in a literal way.

I don't think the meaning imparted is "if I can't have you." It's more mean spirited than that. It's already ownership.... but I don't think it's realistically saying that. It's more pathetic and sad, and it feels self aware. I dunno, I CANNOT BELIEVE I'm going this deep with a Manson record. In the song, I think it's talking about memory... hence the "record" metaphor. It's not saying "if i can't have you" it's saying "I can't have you." It makes it more tragic and, in the context of the song, conflicted in how it feels.

[halo eighteen]

The reading of the lyric (or lyrics in general), to me, really hinges on whether or not the author is being genuine. That's a thing with lyrics for me... I feel the best ones are dishonest. They're presentations of an emotional response, not some biographical thing. It's rare that I hear people being really genuine about their life and feelings and I get invested. There's some exceptions, Blood on the Tracks, or something really horrible and confessional like the Tori Amos song Me and a Gun, but otherwise, I think it's best when lyrics exaggerate, lie, tell a story of some kind... It's a process of "venting" that isn't related by just telling someone about stuff in a literal way.

I'm well aware of getting off topic, but the events depicted in Me and a Gun weren't completely autobiographical either, but I think that just further proves the point you're making.

[tony.parente]

I finally got the splatter variant in. Super high quality packaging - weird that the 7 inch was packaged outside of the main package and the vinyl sleeve wasn't as potent as i was expecting but overall i'm really happy. The gloss/foil print on the jacket is really really nice too.

[NotoriousTIMP]

I am actually blown away at how good this album is....the music is spot on; hearing synths so clearly on "Paint You.." is a perfect example. I had my doubts when I heard MM was teaming up with Shooter as I figured we would get something to the linking of:



To my surprise this album flows very well and I haven't really found a track that I dislike. Bravo to Manson & Co. this is a great album and will be ranked highly for my list of best of 2020

[tony.parente]

They restocked the splatter variant
https://marilynmanson.lomavistarecor...atter-vinyl-7/

[richardp]

They restocked the splatter variant
https://marilynmanson.lomavistarecor...atter-vinyl-7/

Aaaaaand SOLD. Thank you good sir!

[paul_guyet]

I finally got the splatter variant in. Super high quality packaging - weird that the 7 inch was packaged outside of the main package and the vinyl sleeve wasn't as potent as i was expecting but overall i'm really happy. The gloss/foil print on the jacket is really really nice too.

Smells premium, right?

[Demogorgon]

sooooo... any sightings of We Are Khaos leaking in good quality yet? I've been checking various places, no luck yet.

[Jinsai]

Well, like I said I'm probably overthinking it... and I haven't really paid attention to any of his lyrics since Mechanical Animals. If there's some "I'm damaged so I'll fuck you up" motif going on, I guess it's not gotten my attention.

With the way I get "into" lyrics, I guess I just take it however I want. Stuff should be open to interpretation and I think "good lyrics" should be things you can internalize and make your own (most of the time). I usually even try to avoid hearing what the musician has to say about it. It was a bummer when I found out that the Beatles lyric "He blew his mind out in a car, he didn't notice that the lights had changed" was, I guess according to Lennon, about some dude driving a car on LSD. Lame.

[tony.parente]

This new record may be the best fucking thing the man has ever done.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

This new record may be the best fucking thing the man has ever done.

Right now I rank it at number 2 behind ACSS

[halo eighteen]

I'm not sure what you think is being proven.

I was merely responding to Jinsai's statement that "I think it's best when lyrics exaggerate, lie, tell a story of some kind.."
I was neither comparing anything to Manson nor anything that would've been brought up by you or anyone else in this thread? Hence the bit I included about being off topic.

[Jinsai]

This new record may be the best fucking thing the man has ever done.

100% agree.

The only things that haven't held up for me are the "if you conjure the devil" bit and the "love fucking you" bit.

W/ the "love fucking you" lyric, it just feels embarrassing to even listen to alone. If someone else is around, it's cringe. Everything else musically in that part is kind of great, so it's additionally unfortunately that there's this super cringey lyric going on. I really do try to not listen to most of the lyrics really... I honestly have no idea what he's saying during some parts, and I like that.

Musically and lyrically, the "if you conjure the devil" chorus just bores me at this point.

Everything else on the record is great. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I heard a heavy mainstream pop/rock album that was this good. This year never ceases to surprise.

[tony.parente]

100% agree.

The only things that haven't held up for me are the "if you conjure the devil" bit and the "love fucking you" bit.

W/ the "love fucking you" lyric, it just feels embarrassing to even listen to alone. If someone else is around, it's cringe. Everything else musically in that part is kind of great, so it's additionally unfortunately that there's this super cringey lyric going on. I really do try to not listen to most of the lyrics really... I honestly have no idea what he's saying during some parts, and I like that.

Musically and lyrically, the "if you conjure the devil" chorus just bores me at this point.

Everything else on the record is great. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I heard a heavy mainstream pop/rock album that was this good. This year never ceases to surprise.

Yeah he let a little "heaven upside down" slip in for a second, luckily he snapped out of it quick. That's really the only cringe part of the whole record for me.

[kas23]

The entire Perfume song is a slip back to HUD. It’s packed with all sorts of dumb stuff, especially the part about buckshot in your hair or brains or whatever. The only thing good about that song is his vocal delivery of the word “yeah”.

[elevenism]

Holy jesus. I stopped listening to Manson after Smells Like Children.

And good LORD, this record is dope, and dare I say, pretty. I'm impressed.

[Jinsai]

The entire Perfume song is a slip back to HUD. It’s packed with all sorts of dumb stuff, especially the part about buckshot in your hair or brains or whatever. The only thing good about that song is his vocal delivery of the word “yeah”.

I like the "get behind me Satan" thing
but otherwise, sure, it's a low point.

[allegate]

Holy jesus. I stopped listening to Manson after Smells Like Children.

And good LORD, this record is dope, and dare I say, pretty. I'm impressed.

would you say it's a...



dope show?

[elevenism]

We Are Chaos sounds like So Long and Thanks For all the Fish by APC.

[rampface]

It's hilarious to see where all these 90's bands ended up. I'm surprised at how much I'm still listening to this. I think I... like it?

[NotoriousTIMP]

I want you to know I begrudgingly gave this post a thumbs up....damn puns

would you say it's a...



dope show?