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Thread: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - SPOILERS

  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by neorev View Post
    Did Russian bots try to sabotage ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi’?

    According to researcher Morten Bay, 50.9% percent of negative responses received on Twitter came from non-automated accounts, while only 21.9% was from actual humans.

    “The likely objective of these measures is increasing media coverage of the fandom conflict, thereby adding to and further propagating a narrative of widespread discord and dysfunction in American society,” Bay writes. “A number of these users appear to be Russian trolls.”


    https://www.nme.com/news/film/did-ru...t-jedi-2385750
    The results end up hurting a US company while empowering trolls, one in particular being alt-right comicsgate endorser and prominent comic artist, Ethan Van Sciver, who created "Soy Wars," a satire branding of the Disney Star Wars studio that criticizes the films as being targeted to SJWs.

  2. #662
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    I like strong women in movies. Ripley and Sarah Connor are the ones that promptly come to mind. But there are many, even Lea. Hell, even Rose in Titanic fucked whoever she wanted and couldn't care less about "society judging her". And I liked her. I can't stand superpowered/superperfect Rey.

    I dislike SW as a whole tho. The original movies are silly. The prequels are pathetically bland and just look bad. The new trilogy is hilariously shoving SJW propaganda down everyone's throat (I'm sorry if this offends you, not my intention, but the problem is you if it does).

    Rogue One had balls to kill the heroes in the end but the only scene I liked was the one with Darth Vader. I have zero interest in the Han Solo movie or in future films of the saga.

    Sorry if my negativity bothered you somehow. Just wanted to vent a bit. Cheers.

  3. #663
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    No, please, tell us how you really feel.

  4. #664
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    You don't like any of the 3 original films yet you've wasted hours of your life watching every single sequel, prequel, and spin off since then. Makes sense.

  5. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegate View Post
    No, please, tell us how you really feel.
    Guess this is what a message board is about right? Thanks for the comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by imail724 View Post
    You don't like any of the 3 original films yet you've wasted hours of your life watching every single sequel, prequel, and spin off since then. Makes sense.
    How else would I know if I liked/disliked them if I'd never watched them? lolz. Your post makes no sense, sorry. If you watch a bad movie do you instantly give up on any sequel or spin-off related to it? I'm an open-minded person and like to give art a choice. I didn't like the first episodes of Breaking Bad, for example. I can only imagine how shitty I'd feel if I had given up on it. It's fucking amazing. Open your mind a bit, you might be missing on lots of cool stuff.

  6. #666
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    Rey is awesome and one of the main reasons I am still interested in the next movie even though I was completely indifferent towards TLJ. More excited for the Weiss Benioff Star Wars films though because I want more original content set in the Star Wars universe, not a continuation of the Skywalker saga

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricardo View Post
    Guess this is what a message board is about right? Thanks for the comprehension.



    How else would I know if I liked/disliked them if I'd never watched them? lolz. Your post makes no sense, sorry. If you watch a bad movie do you instantly give up on any sequel or spin-off related to it? I'm an open-minded person and like to give art a choice. I didn't like the first episodes of Breaking Bad, for example. I can only imagine how shitty I'd feel if I had given up on it. It's fucking amazing. Open your mind a bit, you might be missing on lots of cool stuff.


    Edit: but in all seriousness, if you didn't like A New Hope but wanted to give Empire a try, ok I get it. But you didn't like that either? Ok, sure let's try Jedi. Hmm, didn't like that one either, maybe I should watch the prequels which are universally hated. Nope, surprisingly didn't like those either. Hey, its your time and possibly money, spend it as you like, but at some point you gotta ask yourself why you keep trying to make it work when you're clearly not a fan of the franchise. I saw the first Transformers movie and decided then and there not to waste any more of my life watching the sequels. So to answer your question, yes, if I watch a bad movie I do instantly give up on any sequel or spin-off related to it. There are plenty of other forms of media to occupy my time.
    Last edited by imail724; 10-04-2018 at 08:21 AM.

  8. #668
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    I was completely unphased by TLJ. Didn't hate it, didn't love it. Solo was solid, if unspectacular. Force Awakens was fun. Rogue One was absolutely excellent though. They've been up and down for the most part over the last few years. I really hope the Rian Johnson trilogy and the movie(s) from the Game of Thrones showrunners are great.

  9. #669
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    Google recommended an article to me today about how Captain Marvel is going to fail and that after the failure of The Last Jedi...which is where I stopped reading. You know, I wish I had a failure that made over 1 billion dollars.

    I really don't understand - still - how people look at it and call it a failure. Maybe the story didn't turn out the way you wanted but there's no way you could ever call the movie a failure.

  10. #670
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegate View Post
    Google recommended an article to me today about how Captain Marvel is going to fail and that after the failure of The Last Jedi...which is where I stopped reading. You know, I wish I had a failure that made over 1 billion dollars.

    I really don't understand - still - how people look at it and call it a failure. Maybe the story didn't turn out the way you wanted but there's no way you could ever call the movie a failure.
    It's the internet in 2019.

  11. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegate View Post
    Google recommended an article to me today about how Captain Marvel is going to fail and that after the failure of The Last Jedi...which is where I stopped reading. You know, I wish I had a failure that made over 1 billion dollars.

    I really don't understand - still - how people look at it and call it a failure. Maybe the story didn't turn out the way you wanted but there's no way you could ever call the movie a failure.
    With all due respect, it's possible for something to be a failure AND a financial success; the two aren't mutually exclusive. It's all subjective, of course, but I would say the entire casino planet subplot was a failure in that it contributed nothing to the story and gave me prequel flashbacks. Having said that, even though I found The Last Jedi a little disappointing, I do think it had some great scenes (Yoda scene, Luke & Artoo scene, throne room fight scene, lightspeed destruction!) and didn't deserve the amount of hate it received. I honestly hope that JJ can bring this third and final installation in the sequel trilogy to a satisfying and proper conclusion. After all, it's not just the final installment in the sequel trilogy, it's the final film in the entire nine-film Skywalker saga. They shouldn't concern themselves with subverting expectations so much as telling an engaging story with likable characters, which is exactly where I think The Last Jedi stumbled.

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonic_discord View Post
    With all due respect, it's possible for something to be a failure AND a financial success; the two aren't mutually exclusive. It's all subjective, of course, but I would say the entire casino planet subplot was a failure in that it contributed nothing to the story and gave me prequel flashbacks. Having said that, even though I found The Last Jedi a little disappointing, I do think it had some great scenes (Yoda scene, Luke & Artoo scene, throne room fight scene, lightspeed destruction!) and didn't deserve the amount of hate it received. I honestly hope that JJ can bring this third and final installation in the sequel trilogy to a satisfying and proper conclusion. After all, it's not just the final installment in the sequel trilogy, it's the final film in the entire nine-film Skywalker saga. They shouldn't concern themselves with subverting expectations so much as telling an engaging story with likable characters, which is exactly where I think The Last Jedi stumbled.
    It didn't deserve the kind of hate (ie. harassments) it got, but it absolutely needed some form of backlash. That is the only thing which may affect the creators to take a step back and second-guess themselves on certain aspects. I think the main Star Wars saga has a big enough boundary to have a creative free-flow, without trying to be artsy with bullshit like Leia or Snoke. The movie should be about the SW universe and its characters, not a means to an end to make yourself (in)famous as a director or writer at any cost.

    There will always be a gray line, where people will never ever agree if something was immersion breaking or not, but TLJ had too many moments where it was so clear that Rian was just flaunting his ego. "Haha, got them fanboys and girls all riled up!!! Look at me go!"

    I think the right idea is to give people like Rian complete creative control in another SW saga, like the unannounced trilogy he got. As much as I despise him for some of his artsy decisions in TLJ, I root for him to create the biggest mindfuck SW movies we have ever seen and succeed. It should be his very own sandbox, and I am curious what he may produce. Just don't touch the main saga.

    That being sad, I am highly pessimistic (which may be a good thing, because I was so sure TLJ will be 10/10, best ever), because JJ is not a man to finish projects with. He is sort of a mix between a visionary and a guy who knows all the cheap tricks, but can make them look compelling. If you want an idea for an entertaining, but not so deep movie plot, he should be your guy. I just can't see him putting a satisfactory end to difficult stuff like characters final arcs. I'd be happier if they hired someone else to help him write it, so he can focus on directing.

    Wait, I just checked the wikipedia, it says a guy named Chris Terrio was writing it too. Neat! Let's see what has he been involved with a writing credit... Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

    Just end me...

  13. #673
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    ^What were the "artsy decisions" in TLJ?

  14. #674
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    Hi. I've made the choice to start splitting complaints about TLJ to the Episode VIII thread because we're getting ramped up for an onslaught of Ep IX stuff and I want that thread to be focused on that movie instead.

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    This dude has an intriguing theory… very likely not correct… but still way more interesting of a take than anything this trilogy has given us so far. (for anyone still interested in fan theories)





    Again, not likely to be true, but still interesting.



    On a separate note, allegedly George gave his plans for episodes 7-9 to Disney and they opted not to use his version. It would be cool if that story could see the light of day. They could do an “alternate universe” graphic novel telling that version of 7-9 (DC and Marvel have both done these kinds of one-off stories with their characters over the years). This is likely a pipe dream, but I’d like to in some way get closure to this story and these characters from George, and a limited run or digital graphic novel set in an alternate universe seems like it would be a cheap and easy way to let it exist without distracting too much from the cinematic prime universe.

  16. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantra View Post
    ^What were the "artsy decisions" in TLJ?
    The most glaring was Snoke, as his death, and ultimately his entire role was nothing more than some weird flex to the viewers that Rian's aint no bitch, and he's just gonna kill him. It sounds super cool on paper, like imagine Vince Russo pitching it, if you are familiar with that lunatic. Basically a bunch of bros inserted into every sentence, and being absolutely high on the idea that you pull this "great" twist. But it has no substance, no value, nothing. It's like a disciplinarian slap to the face, without the disciplinarian part. Bamm, I hit you! You didn't expect that, ha!!

    It's so lame and amateurish. First year art students come up with shitty ideas like this. Bro bro bro, what if my movie was from end to the start? Bro bro bro what if the whole movie was just a dream? Shit like that. And I'm not saying ideas like this can not be fleshed out into something of value, but it is artsy when it has no substance.

    Same thing with Luke's lightsaber throw. It is an extremely powerful image, which has no substance whatsoever other than gotcha! We get some rather vague ideas as to why Luke may have gone down this path, which is still more than the complete void after Snoke, but it is highly unsatisfactory. It's like that one le epic troll scene was all on his mind, and he threw around some backstory, that Luke made a mistake, so that's why he became the man who did that.

    And then the third one was Rose sabotaging Finn. Oh, it's the end of the movie and you think a brave soldier will give his life to the resistance? Le epic troll time motherfucker, but this time, he did not stop there. He painted an image of two people kissing and talking about how Love >>>>>>> everything else, while a huge ass deathbeam is about to annihilate all their friends.

    Out of context, all three of these are epic. An unexpected plot twist, a hero's refusal to the holy cause, and love blossoming in the middle of destruction. Amazing, A+. In context, however, they all stink.

    A good counter-example is Luke's hologram projection. It started from the same place, namely bro bro bro... but what if Luke is not really there??!! But that idea actually got fleshed out. How does he do it? Why does he do it? What does he achieve with it? How does he achieve it? We can argue whether the answers to these questions are satisfactory, but they are all valid answers nonetheless. It's also a very smart way to please many fans' wet dreams of Luke being this 1 versus the world Jedi God, without destroying any braincels as to how does he do it.

    Another artsy shit was Leia's flight, but I didn't mention that, because that scene had the benefit of the doubt, that it may get fleshed out in ep IX, as it was supposed to be Leia's movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Channard View Post

    On a separate note, allegedly George gave his plans for episodes 7-9 to Disney and they opted not to use his version. It would be cool if that story could see the light of day. They could do an “alternate universe” graphic novel telling that version of 7-9 (DC and Marvel have both done these kinds of one-off stories with their characters over the years). This is likely a pipe dream, but I’d like to in some way get closure to this story and these characters from George, and a limited run or digital graphic novel set in an alternate universe seems like it would be a cheap and easy way to let it exist without distracting too much from the cinematic prime universe.
    Is that just allegedly? I thought it was pretty much a fact. His story's protagonist was a girl named Kira, that's all I can remember.

    Also, we can thank George for the prequels, so that we don't riot when we hear news like that. Just throw his ideas to the bin.
    Last edited by Volband; 03-31-2019 at 01:19 PM.

  17. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volband View Post
    Is that just allegedly? I thought it was pretty much a fact. His story's protagonist was a girl named Kira, that's all I can remember.

    I think George said it happened, I’m not sure anyone from Disney confirmed it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Volband View Post
    Also, we can thank George for the prequels, so that we don't riot when we hear news like that. Just throw his ideas to the bin.
    Bring up the prequels? Interestingly enough so did George when discussing his ideas on episodes 7-9. His quote…

    [Thenext three StarWarsfilms]were going to get into a microbiotic world. But there’s this world of creatures that operate differently than we do. I call them the Whills. And the Whills are the ones who actually control the universe. They feed off the Force… If I’d held onto the company I could have done it, and then it would have been done. Of course, alot of the fans would have hated it, just like they did Phantom Menace and everything, but at least the whole story from beginning to end would be told.” - George Lucas

    George was a storyteller. At least the prequels told a coherent story that fit the narrative of the OT. They were world building and stage setting. The stuff we have been getting since the sell is a superior technical production, I’ll give it that, but two movies in and I still have no clue what this story is, who these characters are, or how the fuck any of it fits in with any of what came before. JJ really has his work cut out for him with this next one.

  18. #678
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    I agree that the new trilogy is a mess, and we can finish the whys after IX, as everything has been said about the misery around ep VII and VII. But I disagree that the prequels at least told the story. You are right, it did, but it wasn't always a compelling or a coherent one, and he also sacrificed a lot for special effects. You surely know his now infamous words about special effect during the OT era.

    Just to give two examples, he told the love story of Anakin+Padme, and he introduced the midichlorians. From a writing perspective they made sense, but they were absolute garbage.

    I think George is a visionary but not a good write or story teller. George is the guy who makes cans from the can'ts. But he is not the guy who is responsible for the likeable characters and story throughout the OT. The more you read about how it was written, cut, etc., the more you realize that George has always been a mediocre writer.

    To argue with myself, the prequels at least expanded the SW universe. I don't think George paced it well, but Episode I did more world-building than VII and VIII combined, which is sad. It's can't even be fixed now, because you can't introduce something like a whole new faction in 2,5 hours of screentime.

  19. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volband View Post
    ...Just to give two examples, he told the love story of Anakin+Padme, and he introduced the midichlorians. From a writing perspective they made sense, but they were absolute garbage....
    It seems like we are mostly agreeing. The tragic story of Shmi coupled with the forbiden love story with Padme makes narrative sense because it gives a reasonable explanation as to why and how someone good can be manipulated to make bad decisions, and ultimately turn bad. These are basic feelings and experiences most people can relate to on some level. And to justify doing bad things in order to facilitate some perceived greater good is a trap easy to fall into.Conceptually this all fits in helping us to understand how a hero of the galaxy transforms into the villain. Unfortunately the technical execution, the onscreen depiction of the love story was ham-handed.The goofy dialog, flat delivery, and generally awkward scenes hampered the movie. The narrative still fits with the overall story, it was coherent, its execution was just really bad to watch at times.


    The midichlorians weren't much of an issue in my mind, they were barely mentioned in the movie and I'm and not sure why people took issue with that of all things. Although it sounds like George would have brought them more to the fore in the final trilogy.


    And the CG has aged poorly.

  20. #680
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    @Volband

    Hmm, well I don't necessarily want to veer off into a semantic debate, but I guess I wouldn't personally describe those examples as being "artsy," per se. I think of them as trying to be kind of clever and surprising and subverting audience expectations, but I'm not sure I would ever describe anything within the SW franchise as "artsy." But whatever, I'm not trying to nitpick over word choice. I was just mildly confused by your description.

  21. #681
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    Some of the political things and intricacies dragged on too long, and was ultimately hard to understand. I watched episode 1 when I was 8 years old. I liked Jar-Jar, the lightsaber battles and the podracing, but I doubt I even knew what does a trade federation mean. I'm not saying don't be too smart, but don't base your soap-opera movie on that. For example TLJ has the DJ monologue about how there are no good or bad guys. It probably won't do much for an 8 years old until they rewatch it at an older age, but it is fine, because it takes up one minute of screen-time. Watching endless political debates in the "parliament" is not exactly riveting. It's something you should get in a book or something.

    It somewhat flows into my other problem with TLJ, which is it didn't go all the way. It threw some conventional ideas out of the window, but never dared to drift too far. Imagine a plot twist, where it is revealed that some higher ups in the Rebels (or whatever the fuck their name is, that's how creative they were with that) and the Empire, sorry, First Order allied, essentially betraying their own, and creating something even bigger and more corrupt. Essentially going full circle with (dysfunctional) Republic--> fractured into the Empire and the Rebels ---> New (corrupt) Republic. It is pretty stupid on many levels, but at least it builds towards something, instead of being at a standstill in 3 movies in a row.

    @Mantra That is my problem, that it's only smart if you do it with some substance. Just by simply not laying down to expectations means nothing on its own. Imagine a presidential candidate going to the podium and saying that he didn't prepare a speech. Damn, wow, that is bold! So what then? And the answer is nothing. You expected some clever improvisation, or some silent picture and video montage with powerful messages, something powerful without words. Maybe people won't like it and you get 0 votes, but at least you had a clever idea. But no, you get nothing, except something unexpected for the sake of being unexpected.

    I can accept the trying part with Luke. I mean, they did try to explain why he did what he did, so we can't call them lazy there. I am rather convinced it was an extremely poor attempt, but was an attempt nonetheless.

  22. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by eversonpoe View Post
    not trying to set you off at all, but didn't you absolutely hate​ the last jedi because it was the opposite? totally shocking with almost zero fan service? just genuinely want to understand your POV on this.
    I had the least problems with innovations. I think for example Leia's flight and Luke's character were a hot mess, and had 99 bleeding wounds, but the idea behind them was fine, if not even great. For example they were badly written (Luke), or kind of forgotten about (Leia), but I personally welcomed the change, and if the rest of Rian's work hadn't piss me off as much, I would probably not even mention these examples.

    But the rest of his "innovations" were either amateurish, self-absorbed, or both. It felt like I was watching Rian Johnson: The Movie, instead of an actual SW episode. I used innovation in quotations, because I don't think the proper word for simply defying expectations can be considered innovation. Innovation requires substance, and I just don't see it. I watched the movie like 5 times, I've read arguments from both sides, and I still don't understand the death of Snoke for example. I don't particularly care for his death, nor did I care for him being alive; I just feel like his entire screen time in both movies were simply for a cheap twist. "Hah! Gotcha! I bet you didn't expect this, huh????" Ya got me Rian, I did not. Now where's my payoff? Will Darth Plagueis emerge from the shadows, revealing he had been the mastermind behind everything all along? No. Will this be Kylo's redemption arc? No. Will this be Kylo's moment of becoming an adult, leaving behind his self-esteem issues and becoming the new dark lord? No. Will this be anything more, than shock value? Sadly, no.

    It's important to understand that it wasn't this moment that made the movie sour to me. In a vacuum, I'd just roll my eyes. Stupid, cheap, but oh well, let's move on I guess. Howewer, I refer to this, because it is a prime example of how Rian approached this movie, which is putting himself above everything else. It's like he loathed part of the fanbase, so he read some fan discussions (Luke's saber, Rey's parentage, Snoke's identity) and then he went ahead and defied them all, so he can teach everyone a valuable lesson: Rian Johnson doesn't give a fuuuuuuuuuck what you like or want.

    That is a horrible attitude. Star Wars is Nine Inch Nails, and Rian Johnson was hired as a live session member. He is more than welcome to put his own twist on things! Go ahead, play a different solo at the end of Terrible Lie, go crowd-surfing, try your hands at other instruments, etc. It's part of the reason why he got hired, to bring his own creativity to the project. But imagine Rian Johnson telling Trent Reznor that he won't perform March of the Pigs, because everyone expects it, so he is going to pull a funny on everyone so he demands it to be ejected from the set. Then during Hurt, he busts out the meanest of guitar solos, because Hurt is boring, so let's spice it up, let everyone's eyes be on Rian; why does Trent take the spotlight anyways? No, you don't do that. You don't hijack something that's insanely popular and well-established, just so you can market yourself, or get 5 minutes of (in)fame. If you think you are the new shit, then make your own band. But until you play under someone else, you have to follow certain rules. If you don't like it, don't accept the gig.

    And this is where the answer to your question finally arrives: the things Rian did his own, aka when not riding JJ's or the franchise's wave was pathetic, uninspired and badly written. Rian's vision, creativity and writing ability peaked when Rose suicide drove into her crush's vehichle in order to save his life (!!!), because she doesn't want to lose more of her friends, so she won't let her lover save all the rest of her friends (!!!!), then the first thing she does after nearly killing both of them anyway (!!!!) is to give him a kiss and lecture him about the value of life, while her friends are being pummeled by a huge death laser!!!! This level of writing is simply bad, child-like and not acceptable. It's not even that this whole idea was unsalvageable. Here, this is how you get all your desired "cool" moments without embarassing yourself and your own characters: Finn goes to kamikaze into the laser, Rose doesn't want to lose him, so refuses to get out of his tail, Finn's vehicle gets roasted, loses control, crashes into the ground, Rose goes after him, saves him from the wreck, looks behind her, everything is lost, they are about to all die a'la Rogue One, so she gives him a kiss to give and receive some embracing comfort in their final moments. Bam, am I hired or what?

    It was the worst, but far from being the only example of Rian Johnson being a mediocre writer at best. Another examples are: Casino subplot and its hollow life lessons; Rey and Luke's lackluster and confusing (ie. Rey has become more efficient with the lightsaber without ever actually being shown to be trained by Luke and not just rocks) training/wisening up plot; Holdo not telling her own crew about her plan, just so we can get (another...) self-sacrifice moment; Rose being written as a person, who was raised in a vacuum, so she doesn't understand (in the middle of a cruel war, nonetheless) how love can't solve everything; not being able to come up with a less comical and cartoonish explanation as to why the bad guys can't reach the rebels; Leia being able to fly while semi-dead, but not even giving an explanation as to why she does not even try to use her apparently quite strong powers against the bad guys - or at least acknowledging the flight scene.

    Personally, I value consistency very highly. If you are a grade A asshole, but consequently not throw a fit if someone else is a grade A asshole to you, then there is already something I can respect you for. Be a bad writer, I don't care. Use cheap twists, whatever. BUT!!!!!!!!!!! If you are a bad writer and you exploit other's work and legacy for every single high moments in your work, then you are a phoney and I dislike you, and your work is even less valuable in my eyes, than if you sticked to your guns. Basically, every "woah" aka high moments in TLJ was either due to cinematography or riding on other's work: Holdo's sacrifice (cinematography); Luke throws the saber (JJ, original trilogy), Luke vs. Kylo (original trilogy), Snoke's death (JJ), throne room fight (cinematography), Leia (original trilogy), Rey is a nobody (JJ). Even if all the cinematography elements are Rian's vision, it still doesn't excuse his writing. If you are lacking in certain areas, then be fucking humble at least. This should be a life lesson for everyone. There is no shame in not fucking with things you don't understand.

    This criticism has already taken into account Disney's grip on the franchise. Yes, I know the "very funny" scenes while innocent people being burned to death is not Rian's fault, because it is obvious they were told that the movie needs a set amount of funnies from certain cute characters. Yes, I know that the poor treatment of certain characters like Phasma is not his fault, because Phasma looks badass, her toys must sell like crazy, so Disney forced him to have a few cool scenes with her which they could put into the trailer. Yes, I assume Disney would never let groundbreaking things to happen in their main-, aka most selling trilogy, so would never let Rey to be turned a Sith for example. I am also aware how Star Wars itself is a glorified space opera, so I have nothing against unlikely heroes, valiant self-sacrifices or feelgood moments like a kiss. Just fucking write them better. Let me suspend my disbelief. It's bad writing, when I am willing to accept that you can drop WW2 bombs in space, or that you can have giant spacebattles to begin with, yet you manage to write such poor characters and character interactions that I just can't... I just can't.

    If things stay the same, and IX ends up as what it looks to be, so the biggest fan service in the history of cinema, then the only episode in the new trilogy which has any valuable aspects from a filmmaking perspective is going to be TFA. Now, hear me out. TFA? The knock-off of EP IV? Yes! Context is king, as Eric Bischoff (wrestling personality, for those not in the know) would say. TFA was the movie you could not mess up. TFA was the movie you had to get right, and you had one shot to do it. All the eyes were on TFA, and you had to grab a whole new generation of audience. JJ did it. The story was whack, but he introduced some great, likeable and different characters. I care much more about the characters, because I will have to and need to want to follow them in the following episodes, and while a shit story can be saved, deadbeat, not likeable characters hardly. He also left off many threads to be followed up upon for the future writers. I saw many people give shit to JJ for having dozens of unfinished stories left in TFA, but it was his damn job!! To create a foundation. Unlike Rian, JJ was an absolute subordinate to the franchise. He didn't want to reinvent Star Wars, he didn't think he knows better, or if he did, he most certainly did not behave like that. JJ did some lazy shit in the past (Star Trek...), but he nailed TFA 10/10. No, the movie itself was not 10/10, but if you are a fan, or a Disney associate, or a writer/director about to follow up on this, you can lick all ten fingers of yours, because the opportunities are endless. Then came Rian...

    Rian's biggest luck was the few, but vocal extremists, and the validation culture we live in. He, the movie and some of its actors were undoubtedly got some harsh and unwarranted hate, which missed the important points at hand completely. It was only natural, that it resulted in just as extremely defensive people. A good example is Snoke's death, where some people acted like the fact that he died was the biggest possible sin one could have done, and now their lives are worthless, while others tried to explain how that scene was in fact a Rian Johnson masterclass, people just too dumb to understand it. As for validation culture, we live in a day, where searching for validation is easier than ever, and the internet provides many hot beds for it, which we may even call safe places. Reddit and Twitter are two examples. I have come to realize that no matter how bad something is, these platforms contribute safe haven for people, who don't want to deal with these opinions. "Am I the only one, who liked [something bad]? Is it just me, or is [something bad] is being totally misunderstood?", soon followed up by "Guys, I think [something bad] is actually my favorite music record/movie/tv show". And I deliberately left out certain social topics and possible agendas, because these are sensitive, highly controversial topics, but tl;dr: they create an artificial landmine. One example of this is that article someone posted here during the TLJ debates, which basically said that Rose is actually the best written character ever, and if you don't like it, then you hate women - #facts. You would think people would have an agreement that this may be a bit of a stretch, but no, some unironically support and agree with that sentiment. All in all, it is nigh impossible for Rian to get the shit that he deserves. Me, a nobody can type this one out, but let's say I'm an author at a popular site or newspaper. If I go hard on Rian, even without any profanity, I'll make myself a target, and my career is over.

    In conclusion, my problems are not with innovative ideas, but with Rian Johnson's beyond abyssmal writing in TLJ, and the fact that he will never get the mainstream critical lambasting he would deserve. I tell you this though: if this guy will actually be the sole writer of his very own SW trilogy, then he has some enormous balls, and a great opportunity to shut his critics. TLJ will forever be a stain on his SW career, but that doesn't mean his story has to end there. Also, he will either do something amazing, or something comically bad, like kissing while your friends being shredded behind you. Either way, we will be entertained.

  23. #683
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    I agree with most of this Volband. What really pissed me off was the waste that RJ did, the Casino scene? Terrible. It should've been spent on making Finn and Rose more real, now they just felt like lesser characters that happened to be minorities elevated to a higher stage to fulfill some check in the box. They've had ZERO backstory and THEN the "fans" were racist and relentless towards Kelly Marie Tran for having a terrible character, fuck those people. How can you do that to somebody? She didn't write the terrible script.

    The Jedi tree? Dumb. What they did to Luke? Horrible, and Mark Hamill said what was really on his mind a few times about it. To me, personally, TLJ was the most disappointing movie I've ever seen from what I remember. Far from the worst movie I've ever seen, but disappointing.

  24. #684
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    TLJ is not a bad movie per se if you just want some quality popcorn time. space pew-pew, funny scenes, omg Leia!, lightsaber pew-pew, dramatic moment, more space pew-pew, ground pew-pew, omg Luke!, morel ightsaber pew-pew, twist, the end! Considering all the pew-pews were done in an amazing quality, and that the scenery, costumes, etc. are great, TLJ can not be labeled as a bad movie. The bad writing and its place in the SW universe and in the third trilogy is what makes it a mixed bag.

    I also don't think the bad writing was a racial thing. Everyone but Kylo got dicked. Luke was degraded into a comic relief, Poe lost 50 IQ since TFA, Holdo had no idea how military works, Rey barely had any real challenges which could have made her a better or more experienced person, Phasma was degraded into a comic relief villain, Hux was like a one dimensional (me angry, me shout, me greedy, me evil, me stupid) villain from The Powrpuff Girls, etc. Kylo had a great character arc, and Leia was pretty good, the only annoying thing was she forgetting that she was a space wizard, which was... weird.

    It was also interesting to see how the swamp-dwellers of the SW franchise were divided by TLJ. So, you got the most obnoxious, most annoying "fans", who have all the SW posters, who wear an original, teared and ripped SW shirt and probably don't shower too much fight with one-another. On one hand, they gave the movie a 0/10, and listed some godawful reasons for doing so, like delving into some deep lore which probbaly not even George Lucas himself knows. On the other hand, people tried to defend Mark Hamill's obviously annoyed and disappointed comments and behaviour, claiming they were all in jest, etc. Or they tried to act like JJ returning has always been the case, and it had NOTHING to do with the mixed receptions of TLJ.

    Also, I would rather watch TLJ 5 more times, than Attack of the Clones 1 more time. Frankly, I barely remember the story of ep 2., or whether it made sense or not, but even if it had a 10/10 writing, I rather be entertained by 10/10 pew-pews, than watch shameful CGI and people talking about what other people had been talking with some other people. So, in a way TLJ's cross is that it's not nearly as bad as it may seem to be, so we actually care.

  25. #685
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    Attack of the Clones was super boring...totally agree with that.

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