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Throbbing Member
I am an Atheist. When I was a kid my parents used to bring me to church. As a child it never made any sense to me, and obviously as an adult it still doesn't. I find myself getting into heated arguments on the topic with friends and family, and I find it very exhausting. Just wanted to put this out there and see how some of you feel about religion in general. . .
Active Member
I don't have a problem with people being religious (see: granny). I do have a problem with people persecuting for not having the same beliefs, and for using their beliefs to be hateful.
There are two protestant ladies at work who are currently being (passive, when she's around) agressive towards a Jehovah's Witness who for obvious reasons doesn't celebrate Christmas. Now, there are lots of things in the JW religion I don't agree with, but this particular example is really kind, and tolerant and was happy to echo excitement on my birthday when she doesn't celebrate them. But according to these protestants she's a bitch for not wanting to go to the Xmas office party.
The homophobic JW aunt I have though, she can fuck off.
Me? I don't have a religion nor do I believe in an anthropomorphic god. I don't think we're at the top of the food chain though (I think as many theists believe this as atheists and I think it's arrogant) - I don't know if it's a being, a force, or just plain physics, but I think there's something more powerful than mankind in existence, and while that doesn't mean we should sit back and let life happen, we are just as much a subject as anything else in existence. /hippy
Last edited by icklekitty; 12-06-2011 at 09:08 AM.
Gilded Member
This topic is something I've actually been thinking a lot about recently. When I was a child, I was not baptised, but I was confirmed. I was told that meant that once I got to an age when I could properly decide, I could be baptised and join the church. Other than that, I don't really remember attending church on any regular basis until 4th grade and my parents were divorced. By this time in my life, we were living in a very rural area and it was a small church my dad started taking me and my sisters to. Weekends were our time with him, and it became something we did for a few years. Looking back now, this was actually the perfect time for this to happen for me, as I had just discovered Nine Inch Nails and, as we know, there is at least some degree of doubt in NIN's music. (*chuckles*)
Anyhow, this was a crucial time in my life for deciding what I believe in, and at some point the idea that God is real just became something that I didn't agree with. At this point I never really thought about it much, but I do remember my mom expressing concern over one of my friends because she said he didn't believe in God. This is the same friend who introduced me to NIN. Over the years I just avoided expressing my thoughts on the subject when I was around family, and mostly still do. On a couple occasions, though, I presented a couple issues I have to my mom, and all she could say was that I have a good point. For years I thought of myself as an agnostic and just sort of left it at that.
Recently, though, I realized not only that I'm an atheist, but that I seem to be the only one in any of my extended family. I've only explicitly told this to my two sisters, but I'm pretty sure my mom knows. The rest of my family doesn't know what I believe because it's not something we usually talk about. My grandpa on my dad's side, though, is pretty religious and his second wife is as well, but she is outspoken about it. It bugs me to no end, and I dread going over there on the chance that religion will come up. I feel like I'm at a point in my life where if I'm pushed, I will explain to them how I see things and they won't like it. I don't really want this to happen, but I'm getting tired of being put on the spot when it happens. It doesn't happen all that often, but it came up around one of the recent Raptures that didn't happen. It's not like I've had a hard time with my family because of what I do or don't believe, but I think it's easier to avoid the issue rather than "come out" to my entire family.
About a month ago I finally went to Reddit to see what it was all about and I found r/Atheism. Now I had known I was an atheist before this, but this prompted me to examine religion and figure out just why I have issues with it. And there are so many. The more I think about it, the more none of it makes sense. I realize that people use it as a source of comfort, but I've come to the conclusion that this is because they don't really think about what they believe. It's discouraging to me to think that my family believes in, and worships, a god who is completely ok with most people being punished for eternity simply for their lack of belief. That is such a depressing idea to me and most people I know go through life devoted to such a cruel being.
Banned
How about in the Old Testament where God commands his believers to massacre whole cities of men, women and children. Or, how God sends down giant hail stones to crush every last "enemy" (non-believer or believer in another God).Originally Posted by Goldfoot
In the Bible, Satan is not the source of evil. God can send forth evil at will and has done so. How can that be an all-loving God?
Sorry to bash on Christianity, but that's the only religion I've really looked into. Also, you may have different beliefs (obviously). So feel free not to get upset by my viewpoint.
One last thing. If the Bible is the word of God, how do you explain this:
Jesus talks about the smallest seed on Earth being the mustard seed, when in fact, we now know the mustard seed not to be the smallest seed on Earth. If God is all-knowing (past, present and future), the creator of all things and "perfect", how could an error like this be made?
One one last thing. Jesus died atleast atleast a generation before the first gospels were written. How can the New Testament be considered a first-hand account of part of Jesus' life?
These are very weak, un-detailed arguments. But if you do some Google searching, you will find the more detailed versions of all these questions and arguments.
Gilded Member
I'm aware of those examples, as well as many others. I didn't care to go into a huge list of things I disagree with, I was just making a point about the entire belief system. You could also question how God was disappointed with people so much that he decided to kill them all and start over. He would have known before he ever created the Earth that this was going to happen, so why go through with it. There's plenty of things that don't make sense, and that is my point. People don't really think about what they believe. Not only that, but they don't even read the bible. Religious people who are against homosexuality because of the bible fail to be opposed to other things that are forbidden in the same book of the bible.
And yes, I know that Satan is not the source of evil. Satan isn't Lucifer, as most are led to believe. Satan isn't even the ruler of Hell.
Last edited by Goldfoot; 12-06-2011 at 11:08 AM.
Throbbing Member
This. Except for the part where I'm actually catholic - this.
Flaccid Member
I have $20 that it ends up being a really big rock.
Anywhoo. I'm a pretty die hard atheist, but its gotten to the point where almost all of my closest friends are very religious. I love them to death, I understand their beliefs better than I once did, and because of that I have a lot fewer issues with religion. I still detest the extremists (read, my extended family), but kind, generous people who are made better by religion aren't half bad.
Down, but not out.
This is something that I wanted to ask for quite a while, and I'm sure such questions belong in this thread. I also don't intend to attack Christianity here either. I'm just very curious. I come from a Christian background myself, and I still have a very difficult time comprehending certain aspects of Christianity. I'm also being general here, so I'm not asking about one particular denomination of Christianity either. (However, these questions are based on my experiences with Adventism. It's a Protestant sect.)
1. Why do they only use the words love and hate to address and describe one's positive and negative feelings towards others? Why can't there be apathy, like and dislike? Why are such feelings only measured in love and hatred?
2. If people that don't believe in God and the Bible go to Hell for simply being non-believers, how exactly are those the acts of the unconditional love and perpetual forgiveness I keep hearing about? How exactly is that free will if you have to believe in God and the Bible in order to become saved?
3. Why do some Christians think that atheists are inherently bitter, immoral and incapable of love, forgiveness and compassion? Those assumptions are so far from the truth. Most atheists come across as laid back to me, and they actually have a grasp on accountability and ethics, and are also just as capable of love, forgiveness and compassion like any other person out there. Just like how anybody can be good, anybody can be bad.
Last edited by Halo Infinity; 12-06-2011 at 02:09 PM.
Throbbing Member
Exactly.
I was once told by a devout Baptist that I must be inherently evil because I an an Atheist. I live my my own moral code, and it has nothing to do with being "good" because I am afraid of going to hell. I treat everyone I know and meet exactly how I would like to be treated myself. I don't lie, cheat, steal, or physically harm people. The most Religious man I know is hard core Catholic. He also happens to be the most deceitful people I have ever met. That doesn't mean that every Catholic I know is deceitful, but he is such a hypocrite. He talks down to me and goes on and on about how "ignorant" I am, but he doesn't seem to practice what he preaches. This kind of stuff makes me nuts. . .
Active Member
I agree with what you and some other people here are saying about the bible, and as a result I've learned to separate God and the bible. It's a fascinating cultural text (especially for the psychologists!), but it was written by humans. And humans are basically dicks. Even if God told them the utter amazing real truth truth, I am certain that whatever human wrote that down did a little bit of government-style editing to pander to whatever they wanted. Ok, so you hit on some guy and he doesn't love you back - that doesn't mean you should bullshit about how homosexuality is wrong. Ok, you wanted a threesome but your wife said no. That doesn't mean you should vent with some thou shalt not covet crap.
BOO MANKIND
Josh Wink was on HLAH
I have no issue with any religion, my issue is with how certain people interpret and exploit certain facets of certain religions to further their own goals.
Also, militant Atheists are probably the most obnoxious people on the planet
Flaccid Member
wake up sheepledean! The bible is only for stupid people, im so much betterrrrrr!
Edit: New ETS won't let me post in all caps.
Josh Wink was on HLAH
Omg sheepledean
Down, but not out.
Such accusations and assumptions drive me nuts true no matter how much I try not to let them get to me as well. I have gotten used to coming across some Christians of any denomination that conduct themselves in such a hypocritical manner. I've just witnessed such spectacles far too much. They also preach against hubris, but somehow manage to embrace nothing but arrogance and narcissism, while labeling non-believers as "darkness" and "lost" when they don't know anything else about them. For all they know, that atheist, or person of another faith might be one of the most gracious and centered people they'll ever encounter.
Same here. I'm completely with you on this.
Oh yes, I've certainly noticed that. Various types of fundamentalists can be as obnoxious as one can get, but such atheists are also something else.
Last edited by Halo Infinity; 12-06-2011 at 09:02 PM.
Hairy Member
Im glad others catch on to this. Why do people believe that all atheists are automatically evil people? I really dont get it. I get bashed all of the time for my lack of beliefs yet its world war 3 if i say something about christianity. I am not an atheist because i am evil or dont want to play by someone elses rules in life. As long as you are a good person, what the fuck does it matter?
Down, but not out.
While I find both militant theism and atheism to be equally reprehensible, I don't understand that either. Why is it that when Christians make an attempt to spread their beliefs, it's just their right to freely express themselves, but if atheists were to merely share their thoughts, ideas and opinions, they're sometimes subject to accusations of "hate speech" and "bigotry" when they're not even imposing their stances upon others to start with? That's an enormous double-standard, and I'm still shocked to see how overlooked/ignored it is among such Christians.
Precisely. Just do what you got to do, don't hurt anybody, and treat others with dignity and respect if you'd like the same treatment in return. Be good for the sake of being good.
Last edited by Halo Infinity; 12-07-2011 at 11:21 AM.
Gilded Member
Is it your intent that "militant" apply to both sides in this case or do you find atheists reprehensible?
Down, but not out.
Oh no, I'm okay with atheists. I also went for the former, but I didn't mean to say that all atheists or theists are like that. I'm just saying that it's possible for anybody on either side to end up being militant, and I'm just not okay with having somebody else's ideals shoved down my throat and vice-versa. I'm actually a fence-sitter on this issue because I get along with theists and atheists. And just to make sure I've made myself clear, no, I don't find atheists in general to be reprehensible at all.
Last edited by Halo Infinity; 12-07-2011 at 12:33 PM.
Throbbing Member
Why do some atheists think all christians are inherently bitter, immoral and incapable of love, forgiveness and compassion?
Just saying: people iz stupid. All kinds and breeds of people, not just those who don't use their brain properly.
As for your other questions: they're sweeping generalizations, so nobody can answer those questions but the people who said those things to you in the first place. I personally don't know any christian adults who actually believe in Hell, and most of the christians I know (granted, they're all catholics, and we're a shady bunch) are rather nuanced people, who try to be loving and try not to hate. (And fail, obviously, cause we're only human.)
Down, but not out.
I'm sure it takes all kinds. That I get though. Not all Christians are like that either. I completely agree with you there.
Sorry about that, perhaps I should've included the word some in my other questions. (I really try hard not to do that.) I also made sure to mention that I was also asking those questions in reference to Adventism. I was reared in that faith and that's what most of them believe in, and they often measure negative and positive feelings towards others in love and hate only. They also believe in Hell, and I understand that such questions are best asked to the individuals that made such statements. I also wondered if Christians from other denominations also had some similar beliefs.
Oh I see. Advenstists are Protestants, so there's going to be enormous differences/conflicts between the two. And yes, they try to be loving but fail like everybody else. As for me however, every Adventist I know believes in Hell, and some of them use Hell as way to make people feel fear and guilt as attempt to prevent others from leaving their faith. They also say that you can go to Hell for disbelief.
Speaking of love, I also had a lot of trouble understanding what it means to love your enemy. I still don't get it.
Last edited by Halo Infinity; 12-07-2011 at 03:46 PM.
i'm too thin
Alrighty, this is my kind of thread!
First off, if you believe in any supernatural ideas (gods, ghosts, spirits, auras, chakras, etc.) you're simply foolish. I won't say stupid, because I know a few intelligent people who believe in absurd things, but definitely foolish. Now to clarify, I'm certainly not saying any of these ideas are wrong or impossible, but to believe in anything that has absolutely no proof (scientific or otherwise), you're delusional, foolish, or just ignorant.
Secondly, to the people who think 'militant' atheists (militant in this sense means posting anti-theist ideas on Facebook, as opposed to militant religious fundamentalists who have murdered millions of people across the globe) are obnoxious or cruel or arrogant - why shouldn't we be?! I understand the concept of 'let people believe what they want' and I would love to do just that, but it's simply impossible in this society to ignore the constant bombardment of religion. Some of it is quite subtle. Some of it (see: Rick Perry's new Presidential ad) is horribly up-front. Religion is simply everywhere. And the worst part of it is that people think it's the norm to be religious. They just accept it. I mean, everyone else believes in Jesus, why shouldn't I? It's terribly depressing to see grown, otherwise intelligent people talking about fairy-tale characters and stories as if they're true. The President of the most powerful nation on the Earth doesn't believe two people of the same gender shouldn't be allowed the same rights as heterosexuals. You know why? Because his interpretation of a 2000 year old book, which was written by many different authors in many different nations, which was endlessly edited and revised, forbids it. If you want to say 'live and let live' to something like that, you must really not care one bit about the intellectual evolution of this species. We've come a long way technologically, but intellectually, we're still cavemen.
Also, I didn't even touch on the horrible, evil, twisted crimes that organized religion has committed. That's not my biggest problem. My biggest problem is the way religion (organized or not) stunts our philosophical growth.
Last edited by Harry Seaward; 12-07-2011 at 08:40 PM.
Throbbing Member
i feel that whatever afterlife awaits you (if there is one), you will surely meet it if you are kind to your fellow man, and take all possible steps to avoid selfishness.
i was raised a roman catholic, meaning that i was baptized, and received communion. i however, have developed a more Zen outlook on life, and i feel that getting hung up on what everyone believes is a waste of time and energy. If you believe in God, Allah, Yaweh, Krishna, I-Ching, Mantra, etc. i am fine with that. it is your spirituality, and you have chosen to go about it as such. We are all children of God (god defined as the power that controls life, be it some cosmic being, fate, the random, or predetermination), and to truly understand the mysteries of existence is something our minds literally cannot comprehend.
Throbbing Member
I am an atheist as well, but I can't agree with you here. You are right, militant atheism is not burdened by the bloody history that religious fanatics have (yet), but that doesn't mean atheists should act like arrogant dicks. It's one thing to defend our ideas and argue about the faults of religious belief, it's quite another to all-out bash religion and believers, essentially grouping them all in the same category, that of ignorant, blithering idiots. The belief in a greater power is multifaceted and there are various degrees of dogmatic belief. Some people identify themselves as religious, yet do not put much faith in thousand year old rules and stories, nor judge people according to their religion, or lack thereof. Atheism should present its case clearly and calmly. Descending into heated, hateful arguments puts atheism in a place which, out of all "religious" (for lack of a better word) value systems, it has a wondeful chance to avoid. I don't want atheism to appeal to fanatics. And it's really a waste of time and energy if you think about it. It's more likely to cause negative reactions than promote its message.
Throbbing Member
Well, in essence, it makes sense. The three abrahamic religions (judaism, christianity and islam) are also called the religions of hope, love and faith. These three aspects are present in all three religions (one could argue: in all religions), and christianity is most commonly strongest associated with 'love'. Christians have the most anthropocentric view of God, who's not completely transcendent and has a lot of 'fatherly' (or in some sects 'motherly') attributes, love being one of them. So the whole 'God is love' spiel is founded in christian theology.
And if God is love, then not-God is not-love or hate.
There is a tendency in christian litterature and theology to always take a firm stance. In general, the idea is to always feel love for everyone and everything, except for sins. And there the drama begins: how do you hate the sin and not the sinner? How do you decide whether the sinner chose the sin and if he did, should you still love the sinner?
The easiest way out is always black and white. It's not, however, what the Bible itself advises.
Which would be this:
It's not quite as straightforward as that. First of all, there are two places where we are commanded to love our enemies.Speaking of love, I also had a lot of trouble understanding what it means to love your enemy. I still don't get it.
First there is the story of the Good Samaritan. A man (a scholar of the law, according to the text) aks Jesus what he ought to do to to go to heaven, and Jesus answers by asking what the Tenak says about this. The man repeats (from Scripture): Love God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind, and love your neighbour as you do yourself.
Then the man asks: But who is my neighbour? And Jesus tells the story of a man who was mugged on the road and left to die, naked and wounded. A priest came by and - following the rules - didn't help the man; and a Levite came by and - following the priest's move - didn't help the man. And then a Samaritan came by, an enemy of the people and a heathen, and he does help the man.
Jesus asks: So, who was a neighbour to this dying man? and it's clear that it's the Samaritan. Do as he did, and you will go to heaven is Jesus' sound advice for the man. Which is seventy kinds of shocking to your average jew hearing this story: not only did Jesus say that a heathen and an enemy of the jewish people was an example to a religious jew, but he also implied that the priest and the Levite, following the Law to the letter, were not.
So in this story, your neighbour is your enemy.
Then there's the Sermon on the Mount, which plays on the same theme of How do we deal with the Law? And again, Jesus (or more likely the writers of the gospel do this) pushes his followers to their limits: be better than good, be perfect. This is the concept of imitatio Dei: be holy as God is holy, be good as God is good, love as God loves. And because God's love is universal, transcendent and does not discriminate; neither should ours. God loves all his creation, so should we.
That's the general idea. There's no consensus over whether this means that you cannot feel hatred, or whether turn the other cheek should be taken literally - there's very little consensus over anything within most major religions, so that's no surprise. But anyone trying to be christian does have to struggle with the idea of what it means to love your neighbour as you do yourself. It's not an easy task, but then again - if it leads to God's perfection - it shouldn't be.
God, I'm all in lecture mode. Like I said: ask others, and you'll get very different answers. But this is how I would answer those questions.
Down, but not out.
Thank you for taking your time in giving me a thorough answer. I appreciate it. I noticed that Adventists also believe everything you just said there, despite their differences from Catholicism, as well as the other faiths you've mentioned regarding the religions of hope, love and faith as well. Oh yes, and that's certainly true. I've often received multiple different answers from people that were also of the same denomination. It's like for every 10 Adventists thinking and believing one way, there would be another 10 Adventists to object or merely think and believe otherwise, which clearly goes to show that you can't assume that all people from "Insert Religion Here" are all the same. (But you already covered that point quite well already.)
As a long-time lurker, I'm aware that you're a teacher right? And you said that you were a Catholic? I just wanted to be sure that I got that right. I just remember you for being very knowledgeable of religion, as you have also proven to me right now as well. You often provided a lot of clarification to certain things in religion that made me very confused.
Last edited by Halo Infinity; 12-08-2011 at 10:09 AM.
Banned
Is it God's universal love on display when God utterly destroys countless numbers of people in the Bible? I am not bashing. This is a serious question for a non-believer who tries very hard to accept the Bible as the word of God.
Hairy Member
God is love...
...proof that god is gay?
Throbbing Member
^ Delusional: That would be a false syllogism, like 'I can get in my suitcase, ergo..' But you already knew that. On a less logical note: if all love is mirroring the divine love, then all love is mirroring the divine love, yes. However, some people (and most followers of the three monotheistic religions would in this case be 'some people', so that's a lot of 'some people') will claim that there's divine love and then there's perversions of divine love, and homosexuality is a perversion. They use naturalistic arguments or symbolic arguments (revolving around the relationship of Christ and the Church) to back this up. Those arguments are, by the way, utterly unconvincing on a philosophical level.
In general, the answer given to that question would be: if you had a kid, and the kid was an addict who stole from you and sold your grandfather's watch for a fix, would you not at some point try some tough love?
Not saying that's a brilliant argument, but it's the most common answer to your very common question. I have yet to meet a christian who actually read the Bible and wasn't worried by the flood and Sodom, all Nineves aside.
@ Kris: Yup, guilty as charged (though that doesn't automatically mean I know all that much more than your average person. I just seem to have absolutely no life, freeing me up to spend time on teh webz to type out lengthy rambling replies). Thanks for the compliment. I realized my earlier response was a bit random, so I figured I might as well give a better answer to that question.
Hairy Member
That's what's nice about abstractions like "love", logical analysis doesn't apply.
As an atheist I never thought this was a productive argument to make. Really anything incomprehensible by our standards can easily be explained away by our lack of intellectual capacity compared to the supreme being, "god works in mysterious ways". Until you tear down the all powerful all/all knowing/all loving traits, that's a perfectly reasonable and valid response from a believer. *EDIT: To clarify, the argument I'm referring to is cashpiles not your counter argument Elke.
Last edited by Delusional; 12-08-2011 at 02:39 PM.
Stubby Member
I live in a holy land where the religion states that strong drinks are forbidden; beer is said to be okay in their scripture yet the majority of practicing Mormons take an even stricter stance and abstain from alcohol completely- even in cooking.
This really pisses me off. Why? This state is number one for anti-depressants- almost twice the national average in the US; with LDS use almost twice as high against non-LDS citizens. This religion pushes perfection so badly that its members (mostly women) are extremely distraught, and many are badly addicted to other prescription drugs. These people think that these complex drugs are okay compared to a glass of wine (or a hot drink; yes, even hot chocolate is not allowed) because drugs aren't mentioned in their scripture.
This has been making me think lately about how religion does not fit in our modern society. Change is quick compared to thousands of years ago; ancient scriptures are completely out of touch with how we run our lives today, and I'm not even bringing scientific evidence vs. religion into this. I actually admire the strictness of most Mormons- what percentage of Christians can say they follow their religion's rules so closely, or even enough to honestly call themselves Christian beyond their belief in Jesus? But it has the same fallacies as all religions- not every rule, tale, or suggestion makes sense in the now, and this is where I think religious following sits on the same line as insanity.
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