The little things that piss you off...about music.

[allegro]

yeah but what about any backlash from Lennon lovers?

That was possible just from her book, which didn't paint him as Mr. Wonderful. She painted herself as the poor abandoned waif and he ran away with a trollop and he didn't see his son Julian very often, etc. Not a lot of great stuff. Some good stuff. But no beating stuff. She gets into a lot of details re how she discovered him having an affair, etc.

[Sutekh]

Well, she's the one who could capitalize on honesty. She has nothing to sell other than her story. Dirt sells more than clean.

Dirt without proof gets you sued, and a book by Lennon's wife will sell no matter what.

Either way, you can't declare the book to be totally honest anymore than I can pretend to know what kind of man trent is in private

[allegro]

Dirt without proof gets you sued, and a book by Lennon's wife will sell no matter what.

Oh, come on. She could have said that he beat her and he wouldn't have sued her. She said he hit her once, and he owned up to it. He wrote "Jealous Guy" about it. She even still loves the guy. Here, go read the book yourself, it's pretty old. Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. The guy is dead, he can't come back to argue this shit.

[Sutekh]

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing - honest. Why are you posting a link to the book? It doesn't matter if I read it or not - I have no way of knowing if she's telling the truth, it can only fuel more of the supposition that you say is baseless and futile

Also what's this all about

There have never been any stories of John Lennon being violent to women; the lyrics to "Getting Better" are song lyrics, not autobiographical.

She said he hit her once, and he owned up to it. He wrote "Jealous Guy" about it.

[allegro]

That's not "beating women" or "being violent" as if it's a regular behavior.

He felt so bad about doing it once, he wrote a friggin' public song about it.

Every Beatles fanatic knows about it. It's common knowledge.

None of this lends to this guy's thesis.

The lyrics to Getting Better are still not directly autobiographical, they're deliberately overblown.

This guy's thesis juxtaposing Reznor and Lennon is just plain stupid. Painting Reznor as a "dark goth" is Reznor's OWN CREATION. Using the lyrics to these two songs to define their personalities is just plain stupid, since the Beatles song was commissioned for a WORLD EVENT. Sure, Lennon believed in peace and love, but so did everybody else at the time and sure it was misguided in hindsight but comparing it to "Love is Not Enough" -- a song about recovering from addiction -- is just reaching for a thesis that doesn't exist. Like I said, an English professor would give him a D-.

[Sutekh]

No but it counts as a story of him being "violent to women"... you are misquoting yourself there

Boil it down maybe... what would your bullet points on this issue be

mine would be

1. trent is perceived as a bit dark and scary but is actually fairly mundane
2. Lennon is perceived as a hippyish man of peace but really was quite a volatile and troubled man

We can never know for sure, let's just take that as a given - would you say there is no discrepancy between the truth and the reality there, or would you say it seems accurate. Again, take it as written that we don't know for sure and it's just supposition

[allegro]

No but it counts as a story of him being "violent to women"... you are misquoting yourself there

Boil it down maybe... what would your bullet points on this issue be

mine would be

1. trent is perceived as a bit dark and scary but is actually fairly mundane
2. Lennon is perceived as a hippyish man of peace but really was quite a volatile and troubled man

We can never know for sure, let's just take that as a given - would you say there is no discrepancy between the truth and the reality there, or would you say it seems accurate. Again, take it as written that we don't know for sure and it's just supposition

1. Trent was never perceived by me as dark and scary, but was always perceived as short, smart, and drunk.
2. Lennon was always perceived by me as brilliant, dark, and weird. And dead. But hitting a woman once when he was young doesn't count, to me, as being "violent to women" as far as his overall "personality." Like, as in "dangerous." But, he should have never hit a woman, ever. He knew that, and wrote songs about it, and probably never got over it.
3. This guy's thesis sucks. Hard.

[Sutekh]

Sure - I don't get the impression he was a wife beater and I don't think it shows he was "violent to women", but I think the fact he slapped his wife, in addition to all the other stories about him having fights with men, shows that when it came to violent outbursts he had a short fuse or whatever. I mean we can say he was young but the guy died barely a year into his 40s - he was young when he died. But even that said, does somebody have to do something into their 50s or 60s before we can define it as one of their characteristics? Don't know about that

But yes, writing a thesis about rock songs is fucking rubbish even if it's a solid thesis... poor effort on that person's account

[allegro]

Sure - I don't get the impression he was a wife beater and I don't think it shows he was "violent to women", but I think the fact he slapped his wife, in addition to all the other stories about him having fights with men, shows that when it came to violent outbursts he had a short fuse or whatever. I mean we can say he was young but the guy died barely a year into his 40s - he was young when he died. But even that said, does somebody have to do something into their 50s or 60s before we can define it as one of their characteristics? Don't know about that

Lennon was born in 1940. He was getting into fights at the Cavern Club in 1961 - 62, so he would've been 21, 22? He met Cynthia in 1957, when he was 17 and she was 18. She got pregnant in 1962, when he was 22 and she was 23, and they married shortly thereafter. She says he struck her in 1959, when he was 19 and she was 20, when he saw her dancing with Stewart Sutcliffe and he got jealous. Regarding alleged slurs against Epstein, there have long been rumors that Epstein and Lennon were having some kind of affair.

What the guy's stupid essay misses is that Lennon was a pretty well-known feminist. His second wife is a huge feminist. Lennon wrote "Woman is the Nigger of the World" based on something Yoko said. When Lennon was acting like a total asshole at one point, Yoko kicked his ass out, and fixed him up with May Pang to keep an eye out on him. And Lennon actually went along with it. Then Lennon lost it without Ono and the Maxi Pad Incident happened. The guy should have read this for more insight.

[henryeatscereal]

I think bands do kind of rely on these people coming out to make up the numbers at shows though

Agreed! and i'm not generalizing these "kinds" of fans because sometimes they might know 1 or 2 songs about the band but at least they try to participate or listen, but there are other "casual fans" who are talking between songs and just wait for the single, damn it's annoying (i saw Radiohead a couple of years ago and there were some people just waiting for Creep!).
And yeah i agree that bands need these fans to pay for their crew, i see the positive side out of it but it's annoying considering how much i love the music and could care less about the status of going to a "hip" concert...

[WorzelG]

And Lennon actually went along with it. Then Lennon lost it without Ono and the Maxi Pad Incident happened. The guy should have read this for more insight.

This is why I think it's totally unfair for the guy to make all those judgements on Lennon when he was murdered at such a young age.

[The_Prowler]

You're nitpicking. One of my best friends lives in Manassas and commutes to the District every day. I had an apartment in D.C. Lots of people who either can't afford to live in the District or don't want to still commute to / from the District to VA in your area daily. It's, in essence, a suburb of D.C.

It's like when NIN says they're doing a show in "Chicago" when they're really doing the show way the fuck out in Tinley Park, where Jesus lost his shoes. Or when they do a show in "Detroit" when it's really in Clarkston which is a fucking landfill ski resort in the winter but otherwise fucking nowhere. No band stands on stage going, "FUCK YEAH, HELLO CLARKSTON!!"

Fair enough, you make a good point. I'll concede.

[Mantra]

2. Lennon is perceived as a hippyish man of peace but really was quite a volatile and troubled man

Just because Lennon had a bit of a split personality doesn't necessarily mean he was full of shit about the peace and love stuff. I've always thought that his "darker" side was one of the main reasons he was so drawn to utopian idealism, because it was something to strive for. For certain people, that's just one of the ways they deal with their shit. In that sense he reminds me of a lot of people I know, even myself to a certain extent. The existence of some darker side doesn't make a person's idealism bullshit. I'd wager that 90% of the activist/dreamer types I know have also struggled with depression/mental problems/whatever. It doesn't mean they're not sincere about their beliefs and should therefor be "taken down" or whatever it is that kid is trying to accomplish with that essay.

[WorzelG]

^^^i don't get how people don't realise that if they ever actually attained their utopia they'd be bored shitless and it would just end up as a dystopia due to boredom

[Sutekh]

Just because Lennon had a bit of a split personality doesn't necessarily mean he was full of shit about the peace and love stuff. I've always thought that his "darker" side was one of the main reasons he was so drawn to utopian idealism, because it was something to strive for. For certain people, that's just one of the ways they deal with their shit. In that sense he reminds me of a lot of people I know, even myself to a certain extent. The existence of some darker side doesn't make a person's idealism bullshit. I'd wager that 90% of the activist/dreamer types I know have also struggled with depression/mental problems/whatever. It doesn't mean they're not sincere about their beliefs and should therefor be "taken down" or whatever it is that kid is trying to accomplish with that essay.

I didn't say he was a hypocrite, you've got the wrong idea or I've not made myself clear

I'm saying there's a discrepancy between how he is perceived and how he actually was - I'm not saying anything at all about the sincerity of his convictions. He can be perceived as a hippyish man of peace, actually be quite an angry guy, but ultimately still believe in and aspire towards those ideals

[fillow]

AC/DC

10 chars

[Khrz]

Just because Lennon had a bit of a split personality doesn't necessarily mean he was full of shit about the peace and love stuff. I've always thought that his "darker" side was one of the main reasons he was so drawn to utopian idealism, because it was something to strive for.

There's this funny perception that hippies were mellow dudes just lounging naked, smoking blunts. But I guess every ideology ends up simplified to its simplest tropes after a little while. It's like reducing punks to bad hygiene, battle boots and safety pins.
But I don't know if Reznor really is perceived as angry and dark nowadays... I know half the media still mentions the 90ies persona, but that's because it's makes for an easy paragraph that helps lengthening your sub-par article... "Once the dark lord of self-hatred and destruction, now a father of two and happily married blah blah blah" cue to present day and not much to say. But that's only mentioned in reference to the past, I don't think that, for the ones who still perceive Reznor at all, he's still considered that way...

[The_Prowler]

Agreed! and i'm not generalizing these "kinds" of fans because sometimes they might know 1 or 2 songs about the band but at least they try to participate or listen, but there are other "casual fans" who are talking between songs and just wait for the single, damn it's annoying (i saw Radiohead a couple of years ago and there were some people just waiting for Creep!).
And yeah i agree that bands need these fans to pay for their crew, i see the positive side out of it but it's annoying considering how much i love the music and could care less about the status of going to a "hip" concert...

I saw Brian Setzer last winter, and there was this woman sitting a few rows ahead of me who could not sit still in her goddamn seat for more than five minutes. She left during almost every song (not between songs, mind you... during the fucking songs) to go smoke (I know this because I could smell her from back where I was and it just kept getting stronger every time she came back), she talked incessantly the whole time, fucked around with her phone and was just generally being a terrible person to be around. I swear to god, she seemed to have no idea who the hell this band was until they started playing Jump, Jive and Wail. Then all of a sudden she was the biggest fangirl on the planet, making a bigger ass of herself singing and dancing than I could ever hope to be (yes, I'm a singer and dancer/headbanger at certain concerts, and I admit this). Then when that song was over, she went out for another smoke, then came back and grabbed her poor husband and dragged him out to leave... there was 45 minutes left in the show after that.

Oh, and the opening act was this great Rockabilly band from Australia, and some fucking piece of shit ass clown douche canoe had the goddamn balls to shout "FREEBIRD!" while they were tuning after one of their songs. A couple people nervously chuckled a little, but most of the crowd was obviously offended. The only thing that kept me from yelling at him and using plenty of choice, colorful language was the fact that it was a family show and there were lots of young children there. As a musician, I was personally offended by that. I don't take things personally that aren't directed towards me, but that kind of bullshit just isn't acceptable for anyone to do to a working band, and I'm extremely acquainted with how soul destroying that can be. It's bad enough when some idiot is demanding songs that you obviously don't do (because they're from a genre that you don't cover or you don't do cover songs at all), but shouting "Freebird" is an insult to the band's integrity, professionalism, creativity, as well as being a very personal insult against them as people, not "just" musicians.

[henryeatscereal]

^Great example of what i mean, i don't get this people, really

[The_Prowler]

I don't understand how some fans get upset/angry/offended over a band trying to grow and mature musically and experiment with different sounds. Sure, they may put out an album that you don't like the sound of, but that doesn't mean that you should stop being a fan. Not every band is AC/DC and will be happy putting out 50 records that sound basically the same. These are creative people and need to branch out and expand.

I hate mentioning a band like Marilyn Manson and being yelled at that "WELL I WAS A FAN BEFORE HE GOT FAMOUS AND STOPPED LISTENING TO HIM AFTER PORTRAIT OF AN AMERICAN FAMILY BECAUSE HE JUST SOUNDED TOO DIFFERENT AND COMMERCIAL AFTER THAT!"
Or bringing up Pink Floyd and hearing the age old "THE ONLY PINK FLOYD WORTH LISTENING TO IS WITH SYD BARRETT BECAUSE DAVID GILMOUR JUST RUINED THE BAND! THEY DIDN'T SOUND LIKE PINK FLOYD ANYMORE!"
Or when someone's pissed about how "ROB ZOMBIE SUCKS NOW! HE DOESN'T SOUND ANYTHING LIKE WHITE ZOMBIE ANYMORE! HE SHOULD HAVE STUCK TO HIS EARLY SOUND!"
Or my old favorite... "WHAT THE FUCK IS KORN DOING RECORDING GODDAMN DUBSTEP MUSIC?! THEY HAVEN'T BEEN GOOD SINCE BEFORE THAT STUPID TRANSISTOR SONG!"
And every argument carries the subtext of "you're wrong and stupid for thinking differently about it". Unless, of course, they flat out tell you that.

If you don't like an album a band you like puts out, fine. But don't get pissed at them over it for trying something different. Let them grow.

[littlemonkey613]

1 But hitting a woman once when he was young doesn't count, to me, as being "violent to women" as far as his overall "personality." Like, as in "dangerous." But, he should have never hit a woman, ever. He knew that, and wrote songs about it, and probably never got over it.

But like the Playboy interview..

"I used to be cruel to my woman, and physically -- any woman. I was a hitter. I couldn't express myself and I hit. I fought men and I hit women."

Sounds like more than one woman was a victim of his habitual abuse, and I don't like to see anyone try and act like someone like that wasn't dangerous or violent to women. I assume most people haven't read this interview though.

Also based on personal experience I know it doesn't matter at all how "feminist" a dude is. I've known so many abusive feminist men and none of them saw themselves clearly, obviously. John Lennon is the very definition of a wife beater. Anyone who says "I hit women" and is being truthful is. Also he never said he stopped, and he referred to himself as a violent person. Honestly I fucking hate the dude and I'm a huge Beatles fan. But yeah I am not a objective voice. I don't trust him and I don't like him.

[allegro]

But like the Playboy interview..

"I used to be cruel to my woman, and physically -- any woman. I was a hitter. I couldn't express myself and I hit. I fought men and I hit women."

Sounds like more than one woman was a victim of his habitual abuse, and I don't like to see anyone try and act like someone like that wasn't dangerous or violent to women. I assume most people haven't read this interview though.

Also based on personal experience I know it doesn't matter at all how "feminist" a dude is. I've known so many abusive feminist men and none of them saw themselves clearly, obviously. John Lennon is the very definition of a wife beater. Anyone who says "I hit women" and is being truthful is. Also he never said he stopped, and he referred to himself as a violent person. Honestly I fucking hate the dude and I'm a huge Beatles fan. But yeah I am not a objective voice. I don't trust him and I don't like him.

Well, he's been dead for over 30 years so it's a moot point. But as a big Yoko fan, I bet he never once even fucking thought about that shit with her. No fucking way. She was the matriarch in that family. They were together nearly 20 years when he was murdered.

He said he was violent when he was young. No fucking way Yoko would put up with him being violent, ever.

edit: Oddly enough, I own that Playboy issue in pristine condition; I bought it the month he was murdered. Here's the whole quote:

PLAYBOY: "'Getting Better.'"

"LENNON: "It is a diary form of writing. All that 'I used to be cruel to my woman, I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved' was me. I used to be cruel to my woman, and physically... any woman. I was a hitter. I couldn't express myself and I hit. I fought men and I hit women. That is why I am always on about peace, you see. It is the most violent people who go for love and peace. Everything's the opposite. But I sincerely believe in love and peace. I am a violent man who has learned not to be violent and regrets his violence. I will have to be a lot older before I can face in public how I treated women as a youngster."

[Millionaire]

Not about Lennon, but let me squeeze this in here:

I hate when really good music has really bad lyrics.
I hate producers who try to take too many imperfections or noisy elements out of a record.
I hate snide, elitist(I'm trying not to use the word hipster) music review sites/magazines that seem more concerned about the personality and credibility of a band than the actual music.
I hate people who think that metal/punk/any aggressive music is somehow juvenile. Some the the most popular stuff is, but they've just ignored the stuff that isn't.
I, uhh, mildly dislike when I hear a really good B-side that could've improved an album if they just left it on.

[eversonpoe]

I, uhh, mildly dislike when I hear a really good B-side that could've improved an album if they just left it on.

good example: kinetic by radiohead. possibly my favorite radiohead song ever, would have been perfect if included on amnesiac.

[raptors661]

Really good albums with lackluster final tracks.

[onthewall2983]

I hate people who think that metal/punk/any aggressive music is somehow juvenile. Some the the most popular stuff is, but they've just ignored the stuff that isn't.

I think punk is boring, which is probably much worse imo.

[The_Prowler]

I think punk is boring, which is probably much worse imo.

I'm not a fan of Punk music, either. Never have been. The Ramones, The Clash, The Misfits, fucking Green Day and fucking Blink 182... I can't stand it.

[eversonpoe]

I'm not a fan of Punk music, either. Never have been. The Ramones, The Clash, The Misfits, fucking Green Day and fucking Blink 182... I can't stand it.

sorry, but the ramones, the clash, and the misfits are in a completely different league than green day or blink 182. and at least blink 182 had fun. green day, once they got big, always seemed like they were only in it for the money. but the ramones and the clash were awesome. even if you don't like the music. you have to appreciate their firm political stances. and the misfits are just SO MUCH FUN!

edit: sorry if i'm not as eloquent as usual. kinda drunk

[onthewall2983]

The Clash had some good songs, I'll grant them that much. I can appreciate anyone's political stances if they're similar to mine, but I learned a long time ago pretty hard that sometimes the people with similarities to you can be just as unpleasant to deal with as people who are opposed to those qualities.

[The_Prowler]

sorry, but the ramones, the clash, and the misfits are in a completely different league than green day or blink 182. and at least blink 182 had fun. green day, once they got big, always seemed like they were only in it for the money. but the ramones and the clash were awesome. even if you don't like the music. you have to appreciate their firm political stances. and the misfits are just SO MUCH FUN!

edit: sorry if i'm not as eloquent as usual. kinda drunk

No, I understand perfectly. As I've said before, I try and respect music even if I don't like it. The Clash and The Ramones are to of the greatest punk bands that ever lived, and they far outclassed almost anything else in the genre, but I'm still not a fan of it. And yes, Green Day and Blink 182 don't compare to them on any level at all, but they're two recognizable examples of modern Punk music that have throngs of fans all around the world because they're good at that they do. Comparing Green Day to The Ramones was not fair, and I offer my apologies for it.