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Thread: Kanye West

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne View Post
    You know, I made a similar statement on the old board about Public Enemy back when MBDTF came out, I can assure you that in those three years, I was wrong. If you can't respect what Kanye is doing as a whole, there's something terribly wrong. None of his other counterparts are doing what he's doing now. While I fuck with Drake because he uses great samples and has introspective, relatable, and thoughtful lyrics, nobody is on the level of Kanye. Wordplay, forget it, I literally laughed at how awesome the rhymes and lyric sheet for "Black Skinhead" was. I used to think Hova was the best in the game, but he can't evolve like Kanye, not to mention Hova hasn't done anything memorable since American Gangster, and that was six years ago. I don't count Watch the Throne because his bits are the weakest.

    But yeah give me Yeezy over conscious hip hop like Sage Francis or Jedi Mind Tricks anyday.
    Dude, I completely agree with you. I think 808's and Heartbreaks was what turned me into a fan, I thought Graduation was good...but I wasn't as much into hip hop at the time as I am nowadays. 808's just had this Prince and late 80's pop feel to it that was so nostalgic to me that it made me really interested in him as an artist. I started going back and listening and loving his earlier stuff so by the time MBDTF came out, I was blown away. It was an accumulation of everything he had perfected previously and stomping into some new territory. Some people call it self indulgent, but that's just his music I think...and most popular hip hop in the first place...but that record was like an epic prog-rap record about how fucked up his shit is. I love it and still listen to it heavily. He has completely evolved and I love where he's at as an artist....these new songs showcase an intensity that literally gives me goosebumps every time I hear it. It'll be tough to top MBDTF but if anything he'll create another piece of work that sits comfortably next to his already outstanding accomplishments.

    Like you, I just think none of his other counterparts are on his level as much...and I like a lot of different hip hop/rap. I enjoy underground kings like MF Doom, trap artists like Gucci Mane, conscious rap like Jedi Mind Tricks and so on and so on...and no one can touch Kanye for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thefragile_jake View Post
    Dude, I completely agree with you. I think 808's and Heartbreaks was what turned me into a fan, I thought Graduation was good...but I wasn't as much into hip hop at the time as I am nowadays. 808's just had this Prince and late 80's pop feel to it that was so nostalgic to me that it made me really interested in him as an artist. I started going back and listening and loving his earlier stuff so by the time MBDTF came out, I was blown away. It was an accumulation of everything he had perfected previously and stomping into some new territory. Some people call it self indulgent, but that's just his music I think...and most popular hip hop in the first place...but that record was like an epic prog-rap record about how fucked up his shit is. I love it and still listen to it heavily. He has completely evolved and I love where he's at as an artist....these new songs showcase an intensity that literally gives me goosebumps every time I hear it. It'll be tough to top MBDTF but if anything he'll create another piece of work that sits comfortably next to his already outstanding accomplishments.

    Like you, I just think none of his other counterparts are on his level as much...and I like a lot of different hip hop/rap. I enjoy underground kings like MF Doom, trap artists like Gucci Mane, conscious rap like Jedi Mind Tricks and so on and so on...and no one can touch Kanye for sure.
    I'd had a soft spot for Kanye when College Dropout came out, and liked him then, didn't fully appreciate him until 808's came out. Hip Hop is weird to gauge now since it's not just something underground or strictly for the masses. Like rock and roll, it has different genres and niches that are evolving and coming through. So comparing different artists like Kanye to Pitbull is silly, much less Public Enemy to anyone now. IT's completely different than what it was 20 years ago and even 10 years ago. I mean there's tons of us who love Gucci Mane as much as we love The National, so it feels unfair to keep comparing one artist to another in hip hop since it's evolved.

    I have high expectations for this album, I at least hope it's better than Cruel Summer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne View Post
    conscious hip hop like Jedi Mind Tricks
    No front, but the above statement is kinda ridiculous. There's a difference between concious rap and a white guy shouting "Allah" and "Daddy" while rapping about conspiracy theories and the murder of so called "faggots", you know?

    It's fine, if you're a fan of Ye's, but your statement seems a bit single minded to me. What do you mean by "counterparts"? Rappers, who are as commercially successfull as Kanye? Rappers in general? Rappers with a concious approach? Please note, there're plenty of rappers with a concious approach, who didn't just decide to dive into their Saul Williams phase while simultaneously selling silly Nike sneakers to the people or rocking designer wear. I don't buy his "deep" commentary on materialsim, consumerism and capitalism one bit. His stuff is just not the kind of thing that normally gets the mainstream's attention, that's all. Well produced, sure. But for genuine experimental / concious rap try acts like Shabazz Palaces, Killer Mike, billy woods or Cult Favorite, for example.
    Last edited by r_z; 05-21-2013 at 03:25 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by r_z View Post
    No front, but the above statement is kinda ridiculous. There's a difference between concious rap and a white guy shouting "Allah" and "Daddy" while rapping about conspiracy theories and the murder of so called "faggots", you know?

    It's fine, if you're a fan of Ye's, but your statement seems a bit single minded to me. What do you mean by "counterparts"? Rappers, who are as commercially successfull as Kanye? Rappers in general? Rappers with a concious approach? Please note, there're plenty of rappers with a concious approach, who didn't just decide to dive into their Saul Williams phase while simultaneously selling silly Nike sneakers to the people or rocking designer wear. I don't buy his "deep" commentary on materialsim, consumerism and capitalism one bit. His stuff is just not the kind of thing that normally gets the mainstream's attention, that's all. Well produced, sure. But for genuine experimental / concious rap try acts like Shabazz Palaces, Killer Mike, billy woods or Cult Favorite, for example.
    ironic that Saul Williams licensed his track to a nike ad?

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    he did?

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    Quote Originally Posted by r_z View Post
    Shabazz Palaces
    Shabazz Palaces are the best active hip-hop group around right now. Waiting for everyone else to catch up. I've been reading a lot of comparisons to Ye's new songs with Shabazz Palaces but he is just not on their level at all.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by r_z View Post
    No front, but the above statement is kinda ridiculous. There's a difference between concious rap and a white guy shouting "Allah" and "Daddy" while rapping about conspiracy theories and the murder of so called "faggots", you know?

    It's fine, if you're a fan of Ye's, but your statement seems a bit single minded to me. What do you mean by "counterparts"? Rappers, who are as commercially successfull as Kanye? Rappers in general? Rappers with a concious approach? Please note, there're plenty of rappers with a concious approach, who didn't just decide to dive into their Saul Williams phase while simultaneously selling silly Nike sneakers to the people or rocking designer wear. I don't buy his "deep" commentary on materialsim, consumerism and capitalism one bit. His stuff is just not the kind of thing that normally gets the mainstream's attention, that's all. Well produced, sure. But for genuine experimental / concious rap try acts like Shabazz Palaces, Killer Mike, billy woods or Cult Favorite, for example.
    Having family from Philadelphia, I used Jedi Mind Tricks as an example, because all I hear is how great of a rapper like Vinnie Paz is and that I suck for listening to Kanye West. This is an exact conversation and argument I've had with a cousin in December. I like Shabazz Palaces (in fact I praised the shit out of Black Up when it came out) and Killer Mike (I've been on his bandwagon since he was dropping verses on on those latter career Outkast songs). As for Saul Williams, I didn't like him before Trent toured with him and I still don't, I think he's massively overrated and boring.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by inch View Post
    This is terrible please wake up. Go listen to public enemy and get educated
    I have a problem with people using 90's 'gangsta rap' as some kind of golden age of hip hop that no current rapper can come close to. I find most hip hop songs created in the early 90's, from the simple 2-step beats to the painfully basic lyrical flow, to be cheesy, rudimentary, and outdated. Does "Fuck The Police" or "Straight Outta Compton" really stand the test of time? Does the chorus "Chickity-check yourself before you wreck yourself" really resonate decades later as a catchy piece of music? Is anything Public Enemy or N.W.A wrote really considered that more poetic and crucial to society than a Kanye song?

    No - it's simply a case of nostalgia goggles being worn too tight. Gangsta rap like N.W.A had a place in the 90's, and they did a good job of speaking to a generation that felt neglected and mistreated by society. They rapped with menacing authority and didn't hold back on the violence (or misogyny) But to compare them to rappers today is useless. It's like going to a Grizzly Bear thread and declaring, "This is trash. Go listen to Bob Dylan for some real folk"

    Also, read the lyrics to Public Enemies 'Fight The Power' - it's vague gibberish about civil inequality written in the simplest, most forceful way possible; it's not some epic stand against a corrupt society. It probably served a major purpose when it was first released, but now it's sounds like Chuck D showing off his best watered-down Malcolm X impersonation while an annoying crackhead with a clock as a necklace tries to distract you from the fact that it's supposed to be a serious song.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Presideo View Post
    I have a problem with people using 90's 'gangsta rap' as some kind of golden age of hip hop that no current rapper can come close to. I find most hip hop songs created in the early 90's, from the simple 2-step beats to the painfully basic lyrical flow, to be cheesy, rudimentary, and outdated. Does "Fuck The Police" or "Straight Outta Compton" really stand the test of time? Does the chorus "Chickity-check yourself before you wreck yourself" really resonate decades later as a catchy piece of music? Is anything Public Enemy or N.W.A wrote really considered that more poetic and crucial to society than a Kanye song?

    No - it's simply a case of nostalgia goggles being worn too tight. Gangsta rap like N.W.A had a place in the 90's, and they did a good job of speaking to a generation that felt neglected and mistreated by society. They rapped with menacing authority and didn't hold back on the violence (or misogyny) But to compare them to rappers today is useless. It's like going to a Grizzly Bear thread and declaring, "This is trash. Go listen to Bob Dylan for some real folk"

    Also, read the lyrics to Public Enemies 'Fight The Power' - it's vague gibberish about civil inequality written in the simplest, most forceful way possible; it's not some epic stand against a corrupt society. It probably served a major purpose when it was first released, but now it's sounds like Chuck D showing off his best watered-down Malcolm X impersonation while an annoying crackhead with a clock as a necklace tries to distract you from the fact that it's supposed to be a serious song.

    Did you just call PE 'gansta rap'?

    The 'golden age' of hiphop was back in/around 88 BUT most people will cite the early 90s as the true pillar of achievment and creativity in rap. The reason NWA and DREcentric music is so iconic is because it was entirely new and different from everything that preceeded it. Now that you've had 20odd years of every hybrid of genre you can imagine I see how those songs might seem 'cheesy, rudimentary and outdated' but those songs invented a sound and will forever be cited as the pioneers. SO Kanye can innovate as much as he wants but if it wasnt for those tunes he would probably be a hotel manager or something.

    ON that note, I also think its stuffy and old to be telling people that Kanye isnt real music and they should listen to Public Enemy.

  10. #70
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    Kanye West

    (Meh that inch guy only came here to create a redundant thread and when it got locked, his first whining target was this thread because it happened to be at the top. If he'd done it a month ago, he'd be jizzing in the 300-page Manson thread.)

  11. #71
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    I honestly fuckin hate Kanye and his whole attitude, but...

    That performance of "Black Skinhead" on SNL was fucking brilliant.
    Who knew Kanye and Marilyn Manson would go well together.


    Last edited by Reznor2112; 05-22-2013 at 01:22 PM.

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    So what exactly is it that people find innovative about Kanye's music? I don't get it. He's certainly not bad, but why do people act like he's the most important rapper of this century? This is not trolling, I sincerely want to know. I listen to a lot of rap music and his never struck me as being THAT special.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by r_z View Post
    So what exactly is it that people find innovative about Kanye's music? I don't get it. He's certainly not bad, but why do people act like he's the most important rapper of this century? This is not trolling, I sincerely want to know. I listen to a lot of rap music and his never struck me as being THAT special.
    Talking about him purely as a "rapper"... I woud consider him one of the best rappers of the last 5-10 years (public personality aside)

    He has put out consistent material for years.
    He has a good flow that he is able to switch up depending on the beat he is rapping on.
    He makes wise choices when selecting beats... this has been the downfall of many great rappers (see Nas, Raekwon)
    His lyrics are for the most part free of filler and he has good punch lines. He is often a highlight of crewcuts.
    He maintains underground/artistic credibility while still able to appeal to the mainstream.
    He isn't afraid to take a chance and move in a new direction musically.

  14. #74
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    Agree 100% with above!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfte View Post
    The 'golden age' of hiphop was back in/around 88 BUT most people will cite the early 90s as the true pillar of achievment and creativity in rap. The reason NWA and DREcentric music is so iconic is because it was entirely new and different from everything that preceeded it. Now that you've had 20odd years of every hybrid of genre you can imagine I see how those songs might seem 'cheesy, rudimentary and outdated' but those songs invented a sound and will forever be cited as the pioneers. SO Kanye can innovate as much as he wants but if it wasnt for those tunes he would probably be a hotel manager or something.

    ON that note, I also think its stuffy and old to be telling people that Kanye isnt real music and they should listen to Public Enemy.
    That's pretty much what I was trying to say. Rap artists in the late 80's/90's were pioneers and helped shape hip hop into what we hear today. But it irks me when people blindly refer to that era as the pinnacle of hip hop, and completely disregard any legitimately good rap artist today as trash because their music doesn't seem as purposeful. Yeah, there are a bunch of mainstream rappers creating verses solely dedicated to the strip club, their bank account, and how much designer clothing they own. It's annoying; however, there are plenty of brights spots where artists today "get real" and rap with a purpose.

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    Kanye, to me, isn't the best "rapper"...but he is the best total package in terms of production, song writing, and rapping. Eminem, Nas, and Jay-Z are the best pure rappers IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodiak33 View Post
    Eminem, Nas, and Jay-Z are the best pure rappers IMO.
    Jay is probably the best of all time, I'll give you that, Nas being in the top five. Em on the other hand, I always found to be very overrated. I go back and listen to the first three albums and while his flow was impeccable, a lot of it is mindless and downright cartoonish at times. To me, Em had his time and place and grabbed it and he was a great artist for that time period. Now, he's just bad. I mean very bad, Relapse and Recovery were clunkers. Relapse was him trying to go back to that almost goofy persona of his first album (as well as parts of Marshall Mathers LP and Eminem Show), but it was just numb. Recovery was even worse, because when he figured out that his old persona didn't work, he did this forced transformation into someone who thinks he's more aware, but isn't. It ammounted to a good chunk of the songs featuring him blatantly yelling and barking out bars instead of just spitting it.

    Put a gun to my head and I guess I'd say Jay-Z is the best pure rapper, but I could make a case for a handful of people as well. Kanye is intriguing to me because he's grown with each release. Nevermind that beforehand, he was making beats and produced a good portion of The Blueprint, which could be the best hip hop album of all time. He made perfect beats, then started rapping (keep in mind no labels at that time were willing to give him a shot, them knowing he was just a producer) and has continued to make thought provoking music.

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    Chicago critic Richard Roeper (a/k/a pall bearer for Roger Ebert) (okay and I also happen to be in love with Richard Roeper) weighs in on new Kanye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Chicago critic Richard Roeper (a/k/a pall bearer for Roger Ebert) (okay and I also happen to be in love with Richard Roeper) weighs in on new Kanye.
    I think thats a totally accurate commentary on Kanye. Yet the new track is totally sick anyway. Artist != art.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Presideo View Post
    I have a problem with people using 90's 'gangsta rap' as some kind of golden age of hip hop that no current rapper can come close to. I find most hip hop songs created in the early 90's, from the simple 2-step beats to the painfully basic lyrical flow, to be cheesy, rudimentary, and outdated. Does "Fuck The Police" or "Straight Outta Compton" really stand the test of time? Does the chorus "Chickity-check yourself before you wreck yourself" really resonate decades later as a catchy piece of music? Is anything Public Enemy or N.W.A wrote really considered that more poetic and crucial to society than a Kanye song?
    Let's not get crazy here. NWA and Public Enemy have aged really well, and it's not all about the lyrics. They're also completely different.

    Also... when I'm thinking of Public Enemy and NWA, I'm thinking 80s, not 90s.

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    Jayz better than Nas KC?

    I know this isnt the place but everytime I hear that I have to say something.

    I always found that when firing all cylinders, Nas dances circles around JayZ BUT Jay has a much better ear for beats, and the ability to craft a better album.

    Since this is a Kanye thread............. he supposedly co(or ghost) produced Poppa Was A Player for Nas. Great tune.

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    I've had this question rattling around in my head for the past few days now, and I think I'll ask it here. Is Kanye a rapper?
    It may sound stupid, but hear me out. Listening to each album you can hear the growth and the expansion of ideas slowly becoming something more.
    Sure his style and delivery is hip hop, but where he culls his influence from, his approach to music and his attitude (that lack of a tough as nails demeanor most rappers portray) to me leaves him by himself.
    I think of him as someone who trying to make high class art out of the genre. Someone who aims in a different direction than most and has been successful at it.
    At least that's how I feel about his songs. His guest spots are something different.
    Thoughts?

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    There are many other "rappers" that fit your description of "growing", "being influenced by", "approaching" or "art making". In the end, he's rapping, is he not?

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    He's definitely rapping. I do understand that his writing is clever, his beats are great and he knows how to assemble a team of diverse collaborators around him to make a unique final product, but let's not try to pretend he is somehow transcending rap and making a new art form - he's just doing rap very well, and knows how to present it in the most entertaining way (the worldwide projections, etc). I'll give you this, though, his fans are so dedicated that they are doing all his PR work for him.

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    for a mass consumption major label commercial hip hop product, you're not gonna get much more innovative than Kanye. Of course when you start to traffic in more underground & independent artists you will find more groundbreaking stuff. But considering the utter drek Kanye is mixed in with in the pop hip hop landscape, he's the best & most daring for the past 7 or 8 years, and he still gets tons of airplay, records sold etc..

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    I've never thought too highly of him as a rapper, but as a PRODUCER he's done some damn good stuff. How many people have sampled/reinterpreted Mike fucking Oldfield, for example!


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    Kanye is performing at the Governor's Ball tonight in NYC. Hopefully we'll get some better bootlegs of the newer material.

    It's crazy Yeezus comes out in two weeks and we virtually know nothing. I like that, it's got a certain mystic about the album...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne View Post
    Jay is probably the best of all time, I'll give you that, Nas being in the top five. Em on the other hand, I always found to be very overrated. I go back and listen to the first three albums and while his flow was impeccable, a lot of it is mindless and downright cartoonish at times. To me, Em had his time and place and grabbed it and he was a great artist for that time period. Now, he's just bad. I mean very bad, Relapse and Recovery were clunkers. Relapse was him trying to go back to that almost goofy persona of his first album (as well as parts of Marshall Mathers LP and Eminem Show), but it was just numb. Recovery was even worse, because when he figured out that his old persona didn't work, he did this forced transformation into someone who thinks he's more aware, but isn't. It ammounted to a good chunk of the songs featuring him blatantly yelling and barking out bars instead of just spitting it.
    Listen to his flow on this song from 2011 and tell me he isn't still amazing:


    And just to drive the point home, his flow is the absolute best of all the impressive rappers in Drake's song "Forever" :

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    http://pitchfork.com/news/51084-watc...overnors-ball/

    HOLY SHIT. On Site sounds fucking SICK.

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    "I Am A God" sounds like a Kanye track produced by Burial....well...at moments it does.

    Kanye's gone crazy industrial rap. Is it next week yet?


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