General Police Misconduct aka Murdering Black People

[newmodel87]

I'd love to hear your theories as to why unemployment is twice as high for black people as it is for whites.

Have you even looked into the matter and researched it? I mean, beyond the simple, convenient, truncated and perpetual notion of institutional racism?

And why are you only comparing blacks to whites? Why not compare them to asians or jews as well? Or do you not think that they have faced adversity too?

[emptydesk]

You brought up black unemployment, not me. I'm asking you what you think about what you brought up.

It's how conversations work.

[allegro]

I don't think anyone is saying the police shouldn't be held accountable for making bad decisions. Being a police officer, especially amid racial turmoil, is not easy and the majority of the time the police do a good job but you rarely hear about this because their service is taken for granted. However, it is very dangerous when the media take the exception to the rule and begins to create a narrative that suggests that police, collectively and even with many black officers employed, are out to shoot black people without just cause. The last thing that poor and crime-ridden neighbourhoods needs is less police; you will only get more gangs, more violence etc. I don't think even want to get into the basic psychology of this matter but the easiest way to manipulate people is through emotion because under emotional manipulation, you don't need to debate with logic and facts thus making the truth easy to obfuscate. This perpetual divide & conquer strategy employed by the democrats is obvious; stir the pot and create a civil war and then convince the blacks that, if elected, only the democrats have the power to help the black community despite having a terrible track record. Obama did what for the black community? Higher rates of unemployment? A greater racial divide?

First of all, there are less police in ghettos in cities like Chicago because those areas pay less property taxes because the housing prices are cheaper; it's plain old economics; larger number of police are devoted to higher taxpaying areas and big retail areas. These poor areas ALREADY SEE less police, it's already a reality. And the police they DO see are insufficiently trained to handle the drug and gang wars they encounter, and they are overly protected by a police union that that refuses to weed out the bad apples who have numerous complaints lodged against them. The "media" didn't create this problem; it only relatively recently came to light due to phone camera footage of police brutality being posted on YouTube and Facebook, etc., but it's been happening for a long, long time. Ask any minority living that life. Nobody is saying that ALL police are "bad." But even cops will tell you that there are bad cops and the force isn't doing anything about it, the unions protect the bad apples, and that the system eliminating the beat system, and not focusing enough on community policing and, especially in Chicago, Baltimore, DC, etc., not hiring and promoting enough minority officers and sending those officers into the minority areas is a big problem.

This isn't some emotional problem that started with Obama; this is something that never really went away with the advent of the civil rights movement. Chief Detective Jon Burge in Chicago and his detectives torturing confessions out of minorities using car batteries, etc., that was happening for the 30 years, nobody can blame Obama or any media for that shit.

[newmodel87]

First of all, there are less police in ghettos in cities like Chicago because those areas pay less property taxes because the housing prices are cheaper; it's plain old economics; larger number of police are devoted to higher taxpaying areas and big retail areas. These poor areas ALREADY SEE less police, it's already a reality. And the police they DO see are insufficiently trained to handle the drug and gang wars they encounter, and they are overly protected by a police union that that refuses to weed out the bad apples who have numerous complaints lodged against them. The "media" didn't create this problem; it only relatively recently came to light due to phone camera footage of police brutality being posted on YouTube and Facebook, etc., but it's been happening for a long, long time. Ask any minority living that life. Nobody is saying that ALL police are "bad." But even cops will tell you that there are bad cops and the force isn't doing anything about it, the unions protect the bad apples, and that the system eliminating the beat system, and not focusing enough on community policing and, especially in Chicago, Baltimore, DC, etc., not hiring and promoting enough minority officers and sending those officers into the minority areas is a big problem.

I never said the media created this problem; rather, I said they are creating and perpetuating a dangerous narrative.

I'll illustrate by saying that this is analogous to 'prevention is the best cure' when big phama only attempts to address the symptoms, after the fact, when the roots of an insidious health condition have long been allowed to take shape and spiral out of control.

Hiring more minority officers won't help at all when the vast majority of black murders are committed at the hands of other blacks. There are underlying reasons, largely ignored, as to why these particular black communities are in such disarray. You cannot deny the disporportionte crime rate, poor family structure without father figures, lack of education, high unemployment and welfare dependency, victimization and numerous other factors that contribute to, and simultaneously influence, the underlying causes of plight in the black communities. I'm not saying police are perfect but the correlation drawn between police shootings of blacks and vice versa is a side effect of a much bigger problem that has yet to be properly addressed and only when you do that can you actually elicit any degree of change. The media and people of power within said black communities have been propagandizing racism as the sole cause when this is simply not true; this is absolutely irresponsible and does nothing to help blacks or anyone else for that matter. There are reasons why blacks have not made the same amount of progress as other groups who have suffered severe amounts of prejudice and been able to rebound (ie. Asians, Jews etc.).

[emptydesk]

You're really gonna do the bootstraps argument?

[allegro]

Hiring more minority officers won't help at all when the vast majority of black murders are committed at the hands of other blacks. There are underlying reasons, largely ignored, as to why these particular black communities are in such disarray. You cannot deny the disporportionte crime rate, poor family structure without father figures, lack of education, high unemployment and welfare dependency, victimization and numerous other factors that contribute to, and simultaneously influence, the underlying causes of plight in the black communities. I'm not saying police are perfect but this problem correlation between police shootings of blacks and vice versa is a side effect of a much bigger problem that has yet to be properly addressed and only when you do that can you actually elicit any degree of change. The media and people of power within said black communities have been propagandizing racial divide as the sole cause when this is simply not true.

It's apples and oranges, though. The black shootings in those areas are due to the gang warfare and gangs protecting drug turfs, and the only residents in those areas happen to be black and it's like a war zone; but even the police know that the biggest customers in the drug trade in those areas? White people driving in from the suburbs. In Chicago, it's the Eisenhower Expressway, known as the "Heroin Highway." You can buy heroin on a sidewalk, like a drive-thru at McDonald's. The good residents in these areas have been there for YEARS and now they can't even sell their homes, can't get any equity out of their property to move, can't get any police coverage to help them protect their streets and neighborhood and properties and, worse yet, they complain that the police often treat them ALL as if they're all drug lords when the majority of them are taxpaying citizens who have to live among these gangbanging drug-dealing jerks. So the correlation between cops, crime, and cops treating ALL of the citizens as if they are ALL criminals is faulty logic. Citizens are still entitled to 4th Amendment rights. Welfare? Honey, that was reformed during the Clinton administration, where were you? Black people haven't been "propagandizing" anything; this problem has a lot more to do with class and poverty and lack of civic representation than race. Chicago is one of (if not THE) most segregated cities in the country; the differences in city services between poor and rich neighborhoods has been proven time and again, and the poor neighborhoods are pretty much ALL minority neighborhoods. And this isn't due to some "propaganda." These neighborhoods are filled with hard-working citizens who just can't make enough money to live well in this city due to cost of living, etc. Yes, black people within these neighborhoods have been DESPERATELY trying to get help to stop the violence in these neighborhoods; they have asked for help from the Mayor, the Governor, the National Guard, the President, Clergy, they've had protests, sit-ins, everything, but no help has arrived and children are being killed every week by drug-selling gang members shooting at rival drug-selling gang members. But the bottom line is that nobody cares; they're not important enough; they're poor. They're voiceless. They're dispensable. If that was happening in the rich neighborhood, we'd probably have tanks in there, but nope.

When BLM organized a huge protest on Black Friday that shut down all the expensive retail stores on Michigan Avenue to bring attention to Anita Alvarez, the shitty prosecuting attorney, shit happened. It's only when you hit Big Money in the Wallet that things get done, eh?

Correlating crime in black neighborhoods to innocent people being brutalized by corrupt police officers = faulty logic. There is no correlation except institutionalized racism (people assuming that all black people are violent).

What the black community NEEDS MORE OF right now is this kind of media involvement. It's what helped the civil rights movement when I was a kid in the 60s. It's what has been missing for far too long. It's what is needed to motivate change.

[newmodel87]

You're really gonna do the bootstraps argument?

I tried, albeit in brief summary, but people like you are clearly not capable of comprehending anything but overly simplified, convenient talking points. I probably shouldn't have bothered to respond. But continue to ignore the plethora of long-existing issues within the black communities that manifest in many facets of life, ignore statistical studies and cries of help from within the black communities, in favour of the same empty political rhetoric espoused by people like Obama that has solved anything but the fundamental problems that continue to worsen.

[emptydesk]

I'm basing my argument on what you've said, and yours is based on projection.

[allegro]

I tried, albeit in brief summary, but people like you are clearly not capable of comprehending anything but overly simplified, convenient talking points. I probably shouldn't have bothered to respond. But continue to ignore the plethora of long-existing issues within the black communities that manifest in many facets of life, ignore statistical studies and cries of help from within the black communities, in favour of the same empty political rhetoric espoused by people like Obama that has solved anything but the fundamental problems that continue to worsen.

Okay so you're not from the U.S. (I have a B.A. in English, you're easy to spot.)

Anyway, Obama is pretty much considered a house negro by American blacks (especially Jesse Jackson) so you're kinda talking goofy, here.

[newmodel87]

It's apples and oranges, though. The black shootings in those areas are due to the gang warfare and gangs protecting drug turfs, and the only residents in those areas happen to be black and it's like a war zone; but even the police know that the biggest customers in the drug trade in those areas? White people driving in from the suburbs. In Chicago, it's the Eisenhower Expressway, known as the "Heroin Highway." You can buy heroin on a sidewalk, like a drive-thru at McDonald's. The good residents in these areas have been there for YEARS and now they can't even sell their homes, can't get any equity out of their property to move, can't get any police coverage to help them protect their streets and neighborhood and properties and, worse yet, they complain that the police often treat them ALL as if they're all drug lords when the majority of them are taxpaying citizens who have to live among these gangbanging drug-dealing jerks. So the correlation between cops, crime, and cops treating ALL of the citizens as if they are ALL criminals is faulty logic. Citizens are still entitled to 4th Amendment rights. Welfare? Honey, that was reformed during the Clinton administration, where were you? Black people haven't been "propagandizing" anything; this problem has a lot more to do with class and poverty and lack of civic representation than race. Chicago is one of (if not THE) most segregated cities in the country; the differences in city services between poor and rich neighborhoods has been proven time and again, and the poor neighborhoods are pretty much ALL minority neighborhoods. And this isn't due to some "propaganda." These neighborhoods are filled with hard-working citizens who just can't make enough money to live well in this city due to cost of living, etc. Yes, black people within these neighborhoods have been DESPERATELY trying to get help to stop the violence in these neighborhoods; they have asked for help from the Mayor, the Governor, the National Guard, the President, Clergy, they've had protests, sit-ins, everything, but no help has arrived and children are being killed every week by drug-selling gang members shooting at rival drug-selling gang members. But the bottom line is that nobody cares; they're not important enough; they're poor. They're voiceless. They're dispensable. If that was happening in the rich neighborhood, we'd probably have tanks in there, but nope.

When BLM organized a huge protest on Black Friday that shut down all the expensive retail stores on Michigan Avenue to bring attention to Anita Alvarez, the shitty prosecuting attorney, shit happened. It's only when you hit Big Money in the Wallet that things get done, eh?

Correlating crime in black neighborhoods to innocent people being brutalized by corrupt police officers = faulty logic. There is no correlation except institutionalized racism (people assuming that all black people are violent).

What the black community NEEDS MORE OF right now is this kind of media involvement. It's what helped the civil rights movement when I was a kid in the 60s. It's what has been missing for far too long. It's what is needed to motivate change.

I said people of power the black community who have a platform have been irresponsible by correlating much of it to racism, just like the media in general has. But again, why is this all happening in the first place? Why are black youth getting into gangs, violence (etc.). The disporportionate rate of crime is a proven issue. Why are black children largely being raised in single-mother homes without a father figure. Again, these are big issues that have largely been ignored and are fundamental in shaping the black community as youth transcends into adulthood.

[allegro]

Why are black children largely being raised in single-mother homes without a father figure.

They're not. Not any more than white children in this country. The divorce rate in this country is over 50%, hence all those kids are being raised by single parents. I was in divorce law for nearly 15 years, trust me, the dads get visitation every other weekend. Every other weekend isn't a "father figure," either.

Gangs provide money selling drugs when there are no jobs. Why make $8 per hour at Mickey Ds when you can make $100 per hour selling drugs in a gang?

But why just blame the dealer? What about all those white customers coming in from the 'burbs? The ones paying the money and contributing to the whole problem?

it's like blaming the prostitute and leaving the johns blameless.

No customers, no gang drug war problem.

It reminds me of that line in "The Godfather" where they are having a meeting with all of the heads of the families to determine if they can agree to sell drugs; Don Vito Corleone is against it, but the remaining families are for it; they all finally come to an agreement that they keep it away from schools, and one Don (family head) says "and sell it to the blacks; they're animals already, so let them lose their souls."

[newmodel87]

I'm basing my argument on what you've said, and yours is based on projection.

You put forth an argument... ? And clearly you don't know how conversations work. This is evidenced by the fact that others do. Just nevermind.

[allegro]

Look, this thread is about police brutality. It's about police misconduct. It's not about police fairly doing their respective jobs.

When the police unfairly target people (profiling) and rough them up and/or unfairly arrest them, that has zero correlation to crime in a particular area. That is due to racism. Crime, etc. is drift in this thread.

Insinuating that police brutality is somehow related to single-parent families or welfare or some black people not being able to get out of the grips of poverty (like those Asians and Jews!) is faulty logic, victim blaming, and it's drift in this thread.

I can point you in the direction of articles written by wealthy and successful black people who were continuously harassed by police, pulled over for broken tail lights that weren't broken, accused of stealing their nice new car, etc. etc. They weren't on welfare or aren't in gangs, they're attorneys, U.S. House Members, etc. One black guy was raised in a nice boring white Chicago suburb was harassed continuously for nearly 12 years, and finally sold his car for a beater. Once, after he had moved, he returned to visit his mother and was pulled over and asked why he was in the area; he said he was there to visit his Mom; the cop repeatedly screamed that he was lying. He showed the cop his ID which still had his Mom's address on it, and the cop accused him of having a fake ID.

[emptydesk]

newmodel87

So, in your clearly extensive research of socioeconomic status and mobility with how it correlates to crime you have decided that each exists in a vacuum.

[newmodel87]

They're not. Not any more than white children in this country. The divorce rate in this country is over 50%, hence all those kids are being raised by single parents. I was in divorce law for nearly 15 years, trust me, the dads get visitation every other weekend. Every other weekend isn't a "father figure," either.

Gangs provide money selling drugs when there are no jobs. Why make $8 per hour at Mickey Ds when you can make $100 per hour selling drugs in a gang?

But why just blame the dealer? What about all those white customers coming in from the 'burbs? The ones paying the money and contributing to the whole problem?

it's like blaming the prostitute and leaving the johns blameless.

No customers, no gang drug war problem.

It reminds me of that line in "The Godfather" where they are having a meeting with all of the heads of the families to determine if they can agree to sell drugs; Don Vito Corleone is against it, but the remaining families are for it; they all finally come to an agreement that they keep it away from schools, and one Don (family head) says "and sell it to the blacks; they're animals already, so let them lose their souls."

That simply is not true. I'm really not speaking directly to married couples but all couples as many are not wed in the first place. And I don't think anyone can even deny that it is far more beneficial when children are raised by both parents living in the same household. Statistics have proven this. 'Broken families' are not good for any child when compared to having both biological parents living together, married or not.

Why is it that the majority of people will choose minimum wage jobs over selling drugs and gang warfare. However, it takes people raised with a certain upbringing to choose the latter. But you cannot simply isolate one variable from the bigger picture; they all contribute and simultaneously exert influence creating a cyclical trap.

If you want to use the prostitute example: what made her decide to choose that as a profession? Most people simply do not resort to prostitution as a means of making money because it less safe and not good long-term, among other reasons. My point is that the underlying problems have not been addressed. If people did not resort to being prostitutes you wouldn't even have these johns looking to have sex with prostitutes in the first place because they wouldn't be there. The problem is the mindset behind choosing to participate in an illegal, and potentially dangerous profession, the factors that contribute and the enabled this to happen. That is what needs to be addressed.

[emptydesk]

Your use of the "world's oldest profession" analogy is about as strong as your "pharmaceutical companies don't try to develop cures" analogy.

[allegro]

That simply is not true. I'm really not speaking directly to married couples but all couples as many are not wed in the first place. And I don't think anyone can even deny that it is far more beneficial when children are raised by both parents living in the same household. Statistics have proven this. 'Broken families' are not good for any child when compared to having both biological parents living together, married or not.

Why is it that the majority of people will choose minimum wage jobs over selling drugs and gang warfare. However, it takes people raised with a certain upbringing to choose the latter. But you cannot simply isolate one variable from the bigger picture; they all contribute and simultaneously exert influence creating a cyclical trap.

If you want to use the prostitute example: what made her decide to choose that as a profession? Most people simply do not resort to prostitution as a means of making money because it less safe and not good long-term, among other reasons. My point is that the underlying problems have not been addressed. If people did not resort to being prostitutes you wouldn't even have these johns looking to have sex with prostitutes in the first place because they wouldn't be there. The problem is the mindset behind choosing to participate in an illegal, and potentially dangerous profession, the factors that contribute and the enabled this to happen. That is what needs to be addressed.

Look, none of this has ANYTHING to do with police brutality. You can start another thread contemplating whether there are correlations between crime and "broken families" etc. Go ahead, go nuts. We have a LOT of broken families in this country. I'm from one. I'm college educated, through the Master's level, I've been in law for nearly 30 years, I'm one of the original latch key kids. I studied child development in school. Parents have not nearly as much influence over kids as they think; the STREETS have more influence on these kids who end up in gangs, unfortunately. And that's how kids can come from loving families and STILL end up in a gang; susceptible kids without self-esteem or whatever. Yes, also the foster home kids, but not ONLY those kids. MANY two-parent households are desperately trying to keep their kids from the lure of gangs, the glamour, etc.

Two parents who should get a divorce aren't as good as one parent providing a child with a loving and caring home.

But, again, this is drift in this thread so I shall not contribute to it anymore. Go start another thread.

(If guys didn't want to do stuff like go to prostitutes, the world probably would't need prostitutes. I think I'm talking to a 19-yr-old living in a nice white European bubble, here. Wtf. Prostitutes have been around since ancient Rome.)

[newmodel87]

I'm arguing that the issue isn't simply down to police brutality. It is absurd to think that police willingly want to harm innocent black people for absolutely no reason other than racism. Even black cops have been accused of unfair treatment of black citizens. Whether you like it or not, the police analyze stastistics for the sole purpose of preventing crime. A disproportionate crime rate of any group in any area is likely to serve as a red flag and it would be irresponsible for police to ignore this. This does not give them the right to police misconduct but I still haven't heard a proper explanation to why crime is disporportionately higher in black communities than any other race. This is not racist to say this, it is fact and this needs to be addressed. If the crime rate in the black communities was much lower, police would not be as involved in the affairs of black citizens. If people would actually help these communities, there would be far less of this stuff happening. Again, the issue is an outgrowth of problems that have not been addressed.

[allegro]

I'm arguing that the issue isn't simply down to police brutality. It is absurd to think that police willingly want to harm innocent black people for absolutely no reason other than racism. Even black cops have been accused of unfair treatment of black citizens. Whether you like it or not, the police analyze stastistics for the sole purpose of preventing crime. A disproportionate crime rate of any group in any area is likely to serve as a red flag and it would be irresponsible for police to ignore this. This does not give them the right to police misconduct but I still haven't heard a proper explanation to why crime is disporportionately higher in black communities than any other race. This is not racist to say this, it is fact and this needs to be addressed. If the crime rate in the black communities was much lower, police would not be as involved in the affairs of black citizens. If people would actually help these communities, there would be far less of this stuff happening. Again, the issue is an outgrowth of problems that have not been addressed.

You are woefully naive and misinformed. Yes, there are police who hurt people solely because they are racist. And institutionalized racism means that sometimes even black members of racist police forces fall in line and commit the same abuses toward minorities. ALL OF THIS HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED BY THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AGAINST SEVERAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN THIS COUNTRY, OVER THE LAST 15 YRS.

AND THE USDOJ DID NOT CORRELATE IT WITH ANY CRIME WHATSOEVER. BECAUSE POLICE BRUTALITY IS A VIOLATION OF DUE PROCESS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION. SO IT DOESN'T MATTER IF A CRIME WAS COMMITTED OR NOT. BRUTALITY VIOLATES CIVIL RIGHTS.

THE SOCIAL WORKER SHOT BY A COP LAST WEEK WAS BLACK WITH A MASTER'S DEGREE, LYING ON THE GROUND WITH HIS HANDS UP, NOT IN A GANG, NOT IN A BAD AREA, PROTECTING AN HISPANIC AUTISTIC NONVERBAL CLIENT WITH A TOY TRUCK FROM A GROUP HOME. BUT THE COP SHOT HIM!!!

THE OTHER GUY SHOT IN HIS CAR WAS PULLED OVER IN A WHITE AREA BECAUSE THE COP SAID HE LOOKED LIKE A ROBBERY SUSPECT DUE TO HIS "WIDE NOSE."

THE CHICAGO POLICE DEPT IS BEING INVESTIGATED BY THE USDOJ RIGHT NOW FOR YEARS OF CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, INCLUDING TORTURING INNOCENT PEOPLE.

WHAT IN THE LIVING FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

[emptydesk]

I still haven't heard a proper explanation to why crime is disporportionately higher in black communities than any other race.

You mean in all your research, presumably?

[newmodel87]

Your perspective is utterly myopic when you fail to see the bigger picture; you cannot boil everything down to one single issue and ignore the level of variables at play; this is irresponsible and a diservice to everyone including black people.

It is irrelevant that prostitution has been around forever. A woman (or man) today does not have to choose to participate in prostitution and in about 99% of the cases, it was a choice to do so. If she chooses this over a job at McDondald's it is indicative of many things. I don't think anyone would argue that choosing prostitution is an ideal choice but the reasoning behind it is paramount. You can apply this to many scenarios.

[newmodel87]

You are woefully naive and misinformed. Yes, there are police who hurt people solely because they are racist. And institutionalized racism means that sometimes even black members of racist police forces fall in line and commit the same abuses toward minorities. ALL OF THIS HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED BY THE U.S. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AGAINST SEVERAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN THIS COUNTRY OVER THE LAST 15 YRS.

AND THE USDOJ DID NOT CORRELATE IT WITH ANY CRIME WHATSOEVER. BECAUSE POLICE BRUTALITY IS A VIOLATION OF DUE PROCESS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION. SO IT DOESN'T MATTER IF A CRIME WAS COMMITTED OR NOT, BRUTALITY VIOLATES CIVIL RIGHTS.

All people are capable of being victims of racism, and it happens. I don't think anyone denies this. But you are acting like, or purposely exaggerating, to make it seem like this is the norm.

[emptydesk]

Let's not shame sex workers, sound good?

[newmodel87]

Let's not shame sex workers, sound good?

I'm entirely indifferent to what people want to choose as a profession. Some professions are safer than others and more beneficial in the long run. Shame is not inherently bad so let's stop the shame-shaming.

Anyways, if you're all done with this discussion or not contributing anything, then ok. I'll be moving on then... you can keep on police shaming.

Whatever that even means.

Buddy, it's 3am here. When you approach the runway of a point, maybe something more advanced than "black people do this to themselves so why try helping," you could consider ringing a bell.

You know, so we'll know.

How about you actually do something to help out these communities? Talk to them, ask them how you can help, be proactive because simply perpetuating the same rhetoric hasn't solved much. No? Alright, moving on...

[emptydesk]

Whatever that even means.

Buddy, it's 3am here. When you approach the runway of a point, maybe something more advanced than "black people do this to themselves so why try helping," you could consider ringing a bell.

You know, so we'll know.

[allegro]

I'll be moving on then... you can keep on police shaming.

okay buh bye

[newmodel87]

okay buh bye

Goodnight and good luck with the virtue signaling, it solves a lot of problems.

[emptydesk]

How about you actually do something to help out these communities? Talk to them, ask them how you can help, be proactive because simply perpetuating the same rhetoric hasn't solved much. No? Alright, moving on...

I'm a social worker and LPN who manages a food bank.

[orestes]

I'm a social worker and LPN who manages a food bank.

http://imgur.com/y3bsPGC

[newmodel87]

I'm a social worker and LPN who manages a food bank.

Please, as if that means anything but go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back. Virtue signalling aside, there's plenty of people who are routinely managing symptoms but not the root of the problem and this doesn't solve much in the long run and that has been exactly my point the entire time. For example: On a massive scale, the cancer industry has raised billions and billions and billions of dollars over many decades and the rates of cancer have not gone down. They may be helping some people but in the bigger picture, they are failing the populace. This isn't negativity, this is truth. When progress isn't being made, one must concede this truth and thoroughly examine the issue and come up with new ways to solve the problem. Again, this is exactly my point.