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Thread: metaphysics and philosophy

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    metaphysics and philosophy

    Is this the closest thing we have to a spirituality type thread? I wanna hear what people here think about The Collective Unconscious and maybe Idealism. And other shit.
    - @Amaro in the Religion thread

    Can we do this without it getting as nasty as last time?

    What are your spiritual notions and how did you get there?

    Do you have any experience with ghosts or astral projection?

    What is true, pure atheism?

    Is anyone on a left hand path?
    Last edited by elevenism; 06-11-2014 at 02:31 AM.

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    i believe in a benevolent force guarding the universe, because it pushes and pulls me. and since the bible is the book with which i was presented in terms of time and culture, that's the one i study the most, although i study the Bhagavad Gita quite a bit too. i think that Christ, Krisna, Guatama Buddha, Mohammed, even Mithra...were referring to the same higher force.
    i've done battle with what i would call a demon...SOME kind of rarely visible astral nasty anyway, that attached itself to me back when i practiced ritual magic, and came back to fuck with me LONG after i stopped with the witchcraft.
    i am a "sensitive" or whatever you want to call it...i see "ghosts" pretty often, but i am convinced that they aren't sentient...more like interdimensional movies, if you will.
    I can talk about this shit all day long.

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    Oh, jeez.

    Abort.

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    Ah spirituality. I battled with this my whole life and now found myself out of that mess safe and sane. Zen is as close to "spiritual" as I'll get. Whats the point of thinking on all of this when all you have is now? I do believe in a feeling of connectedness but not in the soul or God way. Just in the sense that everyone and nature has evolved from the same "stuff" and I think it's easy to feel kinship with all that stuff "out there" which I used to give the same sense of feeling as a "oneness with God".
    I was so obsessed trying to understand the world of spirits trying to understand it BECAUSE IT NEVER MADE ANY SENSE TO ME even as a child. I would endlessly question my sister who was the one taking courses at our chuch on what the books say. It had me wrapped up in a fantasy world of when I'm dead basically. Which as a teenager was terrible because I become pretty depressed and fantasized what my hell would be if I killed myself. I thought I'd finally be somewhere "REAL" because this Earth world is clearly not where we're supposed to be.
    I consider myself an atheist because my belief system is simply not to think about a belief system and simply strive for emotional peace within myself and with others. I've stopped beating myself up for "bad karma" and being afraid of "negative spirits" which was just alienating me from the negative scary emotions that every one goes through as a human on some level.

    It's difficult talking to people about this because God as an institutional being is present in a lot of my family members life. I like to talk philosophy but it tends to make, for example, my sister very uncomfortable because she has never wanted to question her faith and it's what keeps her going in life... or else "what is all the suffering for?" Ugh, I feel bad but I wish my sister would just face that dark abyss which is kind of the fear of the absolute chaos and chance our world and lives are. And the fear of death being absolute nothingness- I personally think it's not absolute nothingness. My molecules are going to turn into something else, get eaten and processed and dispersed and the energy that keeps those molecules able to be transformed into something else that is ultimately ALIVE. So I'll continue living in some form, but the consciousness/ego that calls itself "I"- my memories and experience of my life probably won't stick around in any form whatsoever.

    The part that catches me though, is when I think "well I become the consciousness of this body, just as easily as I am not the consciousness of that man walking across the street." What's to say I won't experience some "rebirth", that I'll wake up and be seeing through the eyes of different animal. That again is said without the belief that this current ego stays in the same form with the same memories like a spirit jumping around....at this point I fail to find words to what I mean I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    i've done battle with what i would call a demon...SOME kind of rarely visible astral nasty anyway, that attached itself to me back when i practiced ritual magic, and came back to fuck with me LONG after i stopped with the witchcraft.
    The relationship thread is this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halloween View Post
    It's difficult talking to people about this because God as an institutional being is present in a lot of my family members life. I like to talk philosophy but it tends to make, for example, my sister very uncomfortable because she has never wanted to question her faith and it's what keeps her going in life... or else "what is all the suffering for?" Ugh, I feel bad but I wish my sister would just face that dark abyss which is kind of the fear of the absolute chaos and chance our world and lives are. And the fear of death being absolute nothingness- I personally think it's not absolute nothingness. My molecules are going to turn into something else, get eaten and processed and dispersed and the energy that keeps those molecules able to be transformed into something else that is ultimately ALIVE. So I'll continue living in some form, but the consciousness/ego that calls itself "I"- my memories and experience of my life probably won't stick around in any form whatsoever.
    I've been studying Buddhism for a while (particularly Zen Buddhism) and especially meditation. There's this guy Dr. Mark Epstein who's a psychiatrist and also a Buddhist and he has a lot of great books:

    In his teachings on suffering, the Buddha made clear that some kind of humiliation awaits us all. This is the truth that he felt could be apprehended by those with “little dust in their eyes.” No matter what we do, he taught, we cannot sustain the illusion of our self-sufficiency. We are all subject to decay, old age, and death, to disappointment, loss, and disease. We are all engaged in a futile struggle to maintain ourselves in our own image. The crises in our lives inevitably reveal how impossible our attempts to control our destinies really are.
    "Thoughts Without A Thinker" - Mark Epstein, M.D.
    All worry about the self is vain. The ego is like a mirage and all the tribulations that touch it, will pass away. They will vanish like a nightmare when the sleeper awakes. He who has awakened is free from fear. He has become Buddha. He knows the vanity of all his cares, his ambitions and also of his pains.

    - the Buddha
    see this transcript for an interesting interview with Mark

    Mark Epstein: I think actually in the Buddha's time there were beliefs in many other worlds, the culture in which the Buddha grew up believed in god realms and animal realms, spirit realms; but one of the Buddha's great contributions was that he taught people to focus on the here and now. He taught people to make use of this life, of this moment to awaken themselves instead of waiting for the next one, instead of propitiating the spirits in the other realms, you know, he taught a psychology that was centred on the experience of the individual, that was counter to the prevailing ideologies of the time, which were all about propitiating the gods, invoking the spirits, and making sacrifices to the other realms and so on.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-15-2014 at 11:45 AM.

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    This is fanstastic, thank you for sharing!
    Edit. I read Jean-Paul Sartre's Nausea and it curiously made me think of Zen, except the guy in the book was a little more tragic about things.

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    I'd consider myself agnostic. Nothing to believe in = no consequences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halloween View Post

    My molecules are going to turn into something else, get eaten and processed and dispersed and the energy that keeps those molecules able to be transformed into something else that is ultimately ALIVE. So I'll continue living in some form, but the consciousness/ego that calls itself "I"- my memories and experience of my life probably won't stick around in any form whatsoever.

    The part that catches me though, is when I think "well I become the consciousness of this body, just as easily as I am not the consciousness of that man walking across the street." What's to say I won't experience some "rebirth", that I'll wake up and be seeing through the eyes of different animal. That again is said without the belief that this current ego stays in the same form with the same memories like a spirit jumping around....at this point I fail to find words to what I mean I guess.
    good god i know exactly what you mean.
    i dont know what else to say...well put

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    I find myself leaning towards agnosticism these days, even though I was walking down the Left Hand Path.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halloween View Post
    This is fanstastic, thank you for sharing!
    You're welcome! I got the Mark Epstein info from this book, I highly recommend it!

    Also, when I was about 14 years old, I read this book and it changed my view of life. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it; tell me what you think.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-17-2014 at 01:53 PM.

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    Those sound interesting. I'll have to include them on my near future book reading list. I've opened up two yoga books but I'm going to want to bring something different when I travel soon.I'm considering not bringing a book at all so I force myself to write instead, heh. I've recently finished two of...oh boy let's see if I spell this right- Thich Nhat Hanh?'s books, Zen Keys and Peace is Every Step.

    Edit. Man, when I was fourteen the book I discovered that changed my "way of thinking" for only a year or so was a cheesy Wiccan book "A teenage guide to being a Witch" or something. I did some serious pagan rituals for a long time but what I got most of that was doing the mediations with visualizations. I honestly didn't believe in the spells and spirits and even praying to a God and Goddess, or three Goddesses, felt empty to me. I did do a lot of mediating but I didn't call it that because I didn't think that was what meditating was. I thought I was just doing something more like praying or casting a spell- praying is something I did a lot growing up...my prayers to God were more like mantras though because I'd simply repeat small things like what I'm grateful for or apologizing even for whatever sinful things I did. My mother was the one who introduced me to some meditating practices too because she's an avid Osho fan. She would put on incenses and a cd of monk bells ringing- she also would make me to "gibberish mediation" where you clear your mind of words by making nonsense gibberish, heh.
    Last edited by halloween; 06-17-2014 at 06:26 PM.

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    Spirituality

    Quote Originally Posted by halloween View Post
    Those sound interesting. I'll have to include them on my near future book reading list. I've opened up two yoga books but I'm going to want to bring something different when I travel soon.I'm considering not bringing a book at all so I force myself to write instead, heh. I've recently finished two of...oh boy let's see if I spell this right- Thich Nhat Hanh?'s books, Zen Keys and Peace is Every Step.
    Oh, wow, I read his book, Savor, really good!!! Mostly reinforces his mantra of "do only one thing" mindfulness but applies it to eating.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-17-2014 at 06:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nin5in View Post
    I find myself leaning towards agnosticism these days
    We are going to hell then! lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charmingly Miserable View Post
    We are going to hell then! lol
    But we're not talking about "religion" (there's a separate thread for that, which is also filled with "I'm an atheist/agnostic" comments, which aren't exactly fodder for further discussion); we're talking about "spirituality." Personally, I think metaphysics fits into that category.

    Not necessarily pointing at you, but lots of online people are like agnostic sheep who think that something like "Yoga" fits into some kind of organized religion that violates the agnostic code, so they won't even learn anything new.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-18-2014 at 01:29 PM.

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    i don't believe in fate, but i believe in convergence. not that certain things are MEANT to happen, but in order for certain things TO happen, everything has to fall into place in a very particular way. and i am thankful that i have ended up where i am, despite all of the horrible things i've had to endure throughout my life.

    i also believe that everyone/everything is connected, since the entire universe is made of the same stuff, and that is really, really cool.

    that's a pretty good summation of my spirituality.

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    For me, it all comes down to the fact that things exist. Why do things exist? When did something come out of nothing? Maybe it's the way it is, that things can come into existence out of nothing. But why is that so? There must be something that is beyond comprehension, at least at our current evolutionary state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambergris View Post
    For me, it all comes down to the fact that things exist. Why do things exist? When did something come out of nothing? Maybe it's the way it is, that things can come into existence out of nothing. But why is that so? There must be something that is beyond comprehension, at least at our current evolutionary state.
    i feel you. as a child, i would ask myself...what would there be if there was nothing?
    not in the sense of no life or no planets but absolutely fucking nothing...no space, no time, no darkness, not even a void.

    that's why the hardcore atheism (and it usually IS atheism, not agnosticism) of science fucking baffles me.

    see, i identify as a christian, but it's not...i don't know how to explain it. christ might have been crucified in another dimension. it also fascinates me that there are SO MANY other god-man myths that parallel the christ story. so i study, and seek wisdom. and i was on a left hand path for a LONG fucking time. i can guarantee any of you that interdimensional evil exists, and i've been at war with it and myself for years.
    i'm just an altruist, who's highest values are forgiveness and acceptance.
    and i've spent A LOT of time studying a LOT of religions, looking for wisdom.

    but @ambergris , what you said is the ultimate argument against flat out atheism for me, and it's so fucking simple.

    oh, and @eversonpoe , i also very much agree with what you said. it's synchronicity. and if you can dig this, that's why divination works and is NOT evil. the cards can only fall one way...Jung explains it a hell of a lot better than me. i'll tell you this crazy ass story about synchronicity that REALLY cemented my belief in it at some point in the near future but i'm tired of typing. long story short, it was an INSANELY accurate physical depiction of words i had just thought while walking down the street, reading about synchronicity on my phone for fuck's sake.

    I really want you people to know that when i say i'm a christian, i'm not the kind who thinks that "god" is a "person" in the sky who can send you to "hell."
    It's way, way beyond that. I feel that i have been enlightened with about 1 tenth of one percent of the true metaphysical wisdom i seek, and i'm grateful even for that.
    Last edited by elevenism; 06-18-2014 at 01:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    but @ambergris , what you said is the ultimate argument against flat out atheism for me, and it's so fucking simple.
    With all due respect, if you're going to have a "spirituality" thread (I think this thread should is misnamed per the OP) you probably shouldn't mix "religion" into it or you're going to duplicate the "Religion" thread that we already have? Perhaps this was supposed to be more of a "Philosophy" thread? If you look at the question that was asked by Amaro in the OP, he asked about Jung and The Collective Unconscious, which has absolutely nothing to do with religion and is actually related to psychoanalysis and probably unrelated to any of this, but maybe @Amaro 's point is reaching more toward metaphysics. And @ambergris ' point is certainly metaphysical.

    See Metaphysics. Which is a philosophical discussion.

    @Amaro also mentioned Idealism, which is also a philosophical discussion.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-18-2014 at 01:34 PM.

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    Edit: Really, this thread should be called "Spirituality and Philosophy" since metaphysics and The Collective Unconscious (mentioned in the OP) fits more into the latter than the former.
    - @allegro

    my sentiments exactly...i didn't know how to change it though.
    i was thinking spirituality, metaphysics, synchronicity and the occult for good measure.

    so many people equate spirituality with christianity and "god" as YHWH, and as good marilyn manson fans, well we can't have ANYTHING to do with THAT shit, right?

    sorry for double post.

    and point taken. i will leave the religion part out of it from here on out. fuck no i don't want to turn this into the religion thread, jesus.

    BUT...theology IS part of metaphysics, make no mistake.
    Last edited by elevenism; 06-18-2014 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    theology IS part of metaphysics, make no mistake.
    THEOLOGY is, yes. NOT religion. There is a difference. Take a few university-level theology classes, you'll see what I mean. *wink*

    Re changing the thread title: just PM a mod.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    THEOLOGY is, yes. NOT religion. There is a difference. Take a few university-level theology classes, you'll see what I mean. *wink*

    Re changing the thread title: just PM a mod.
    do you know what i would fucking give to take university level theology classes it this point in my life? sigh...i hope i get there some day and out of this tiny town where i am LITERALLY contemplating taking a job at a fucking meat packing plant.

    in the meantime i just read and read and read

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    Also, I don't agree that what @eversonpoe described is synchronicity. I think what he described is determinism

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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    do you know what i would fucking give to take university level theology classes it this point in my life?
    Do you know how many classes you could have taken for those 6 Gs your mom spent on lawyers to keep you out of jail?

    See determinism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Also, I don't agree that what @eversonpoe described is synchronicity. I think what he described is determinism
    ultimately yes, but the "convergence" of events as he described it, doesn't it require unusual coincidence?
    but you are right...he wasn't describing jung's scarab beetle level situations.
    forgive me, i just woke up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    forgive me, i just woke up.
    It's 2:04 pm and you're just waking up??

    Shouldn't you be starting a vampire thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    ultimately yes, but the "convergence" of events as he described it, doesn't it require unusual coincidence?
    Absolutely not. it requires no coincidence at all.

    @eversonpoe : "not that certain things are MEANT to happen, but in order for certain things TO happen, everything has to fall into place in a very particular way"

    Coincidence: "a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection"

    Here wait, SEE THIS.

    Now my college philosophy classes are coming to good use LOL LOL.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-18-2014 at 02:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Absolutely not. it requires no coincidence at all.

    @eversonpoe : "not that certain things are MEANT to happen, but in order for certain things TO happen, everything has to fall into place in a very particular way"

    Coincidence: "a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection"

    Here wait, SEE THIS.

    Now my college philosophy classes are coming to good use LOL LOL.
    yeah, you win. my last and only college philosophy class was in 99 when i was 19, and believe it or not, i spent the entire time trying to convince the professor of the merits of Randian Objectivism.

    now my views are completely the opposite, epistemological views, metaphysical views, ethical views...the whole 9 yards.

    i had every chance to go to and finish college, but i started drinking. like having seizures if i wasn't drinking kind of drinking.

    jesus, i fucked up. but i am still hell bent on getting a degree. it's just gonna take awhile.

    edit: @allegro , you are making my fucking brain hurt. i'm gonna let y'all finish, like kanye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    edit: @allegro , you are making my fucking brain hurt. i'm gonna let y'all finish, like kanye.
    Hey, no pain, no gain

    The first and last mistake you make in a philosophy class is trying to "convince" the professor of anything, LOL.

    And you've probably learned by now that there are absolutely no merits in Randian anything.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-18-2014 at 02:49 PM.

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    yes...not to bring up politics AND religion, but Rand's views are pretty much philosophical satanism, as well as paralleling the extreme right...the tea party and whatnot.

    when i was young, i had gone to gifted and talented schools...i was a child/teen prodigy and whatnot...rand preached about the elite running things and i thought i was the elite.

    imagine my shock when mommy and daddy shuffled me on out and i realized that not only was i not "elite," i was poor, drunk, high and half crazy.

    it turns out that intelligence doesn't count for much, which sucks for me.

    Case in point...my cousin jackie isn't exactly the sharpest tack in the box. but she finished college and is a fucking ENGLISH TEACHER. and i'm not sure she can even spell.

    Okay, i'm gonna throw this out there. I've always been REALLY good at astral projection on THIS plane...but i'm interested...HIGHLY interested in merkaba. I've been trying SO fucking hard but i can't break out of this dimension/plane.

    Has anyone had any luck? i assume that if you are reading this thread, you MIGHT have some idea what the fuck i'm talking about....

    oh yeah and @allegro ... i was nineteen and i knew everything, as far as the philosophy class goes.

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