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Thread: Star Trek - Series and Films

  1. #451
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    One of the top replies on the RLM video:

    The eyeball removal scene is the epitome of what makes Picard and by extension Discovery abject failures as Star Trek stories. They could not give less of a shit about what Star Trek fans who have been watching for decades want and have been loudly trying to tell Kurtzman and his cabal of morons to create. They want to be provocative for the sake of being provocative. Mystery box psychology and building stories solely on “moments” (trailer fodder) has never been more prevalent and I will never stop being bothered by the fact that it made its way into the production of Star Trek. As Mike, Rich and Mr. Plinkett have all demonstrated, that type of disturbing, hyper violent situation has no place in the universe which Roddenberry conceived. People always consider Star Trek to be the more intelligent counterpart to Star Wars, but while the new Star Wars films are basically crap, they at least never delved into Saw like scenes in order to generate an emotional reaction like Star Trek Picard did. What an unbelievable shambles, the fact that Kurtzman can still get work is diabolical and his plea to judge the show on “its merits” does nothing to alleviate the scuffing of Star Trek that he has committed. Fuck you Alex Kurtzman, you hack.
    Again, I don't watch Star Trek but I always did like the contrast between it and Star Wars, with Trek clearly being the less action-y, much more cerebral show. Do you guys see that POV on these two new series? They certainly seem way over the top for Star Trek compared to the past series.

  2. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbie solo View Post
    One of thetop replies on the RLM video:

    “The eyeball removal scene isthe epitome of what makes Picard and by extension Discovery abject failures as Star Trek stories. They could not give less of a shit about what Star Trek fans who have been watching for decades want and have been loudly trying to tell Kurtzman and his cabal of morons to create.”
    It could be contended that Star Trek has had violent and disturbing imagery in the past. Example from TNG,



    Also, Khan's ear worms were fairly disturbing as well.

    But those were just a few dark moments in a series that generally didn't need to push the envelope with that kind of stuff. Whereas ST: Picard does feel like deliberate effort went into making it tonally unlike Star Trek. I think Patrick Stewart even stated as much sometime back. Here was his interview quote,

    “I think what we’re trying to say is important... The world of ‘Next Generation’ doesn’t exist anymore. It’s different. Nothing is really safe. Nothing is really secure.”

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbie solo View Post
    One of the top replies on the RLM video:

    ...the fact that Kurtzman can still getwork is diabolical and his plea to judge the show on “its merits” does nothing to alleviate the scuffing of Star Trek that he has committed. Fuck you Alex Kurtzman, you hack.
    Well, again fans were warned that this was never going to be the Star Trek or the Picard they remembered and loved from the 80s and 90s. People have the right so say what they want, sure. But I'm not sure how attacking and cussing at Kurtzman on a message board rights the ship. If all these people really feel that strongly about it, why not just not watch the show, and maybe tune into The Orville instead? It's a pretty good story telling show that pays all kinds of homage to heyday Star Trek. Maybe simply seeing The Orville doing as well as or maybe even better than their show would give the powers at CBS a legitimate reason to rethink their direction.

  3. #453
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    Literally the first pilot episode of Star Trek written by Roddenberry in 1965 has a dude being burned alive in acid and a woman disfigured by radiation.

  4. #454
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    TNG ended in 1994 (movies in 2002), DS9 ended in 1999, Voyager in 2001.

    That was a long time ago. There's been 911, the War on Terror, the Trump-era, etc. Then there were shows like Battlestar Galactica which changed the tone of the genre. It's a different world and Star Trek today is going to reflect that, although Strange New Worlds seems to be kind of retro.

    On another note, here are some theories about the third season of Discovery, based on one of the Trek shorts. Looks really interesting.

  5. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Channard View Post
    An hour and a half is too long to watch.

    For me it's a matter of, do the characters, story, and world stick with me after the episode has ended? ST: Picard never did. It just felt to me like something to watch, but never had me invested or absorbed. I'd describe the show as moody, unclear, and edgy all at once.

    The one part that I thought was real messed up, (AND THIS MAY BE A SPOILER!!!) was learning towards the end that they essentially had Data's consciousness trapped all alone, not quite alive or dead. And his only desire was to finally die. Data, all alone, in some kind of digital purgatory. That part just struck me as really cold and weird.
    I felt that Picard did a great job of showing Picard's next phase in life and when the final moments of the season ended, with his "motley crew" of shipmates, it seemed genuinely exciting and made me want to see more. I also felt that the Data's goodbye in STP felt far more emotional than the one in Nemesis, which seemed kind of shoehorned in only for dramatic effect.

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Channard View Post
    It's a pretty good story telling show that pays all kinds of homage to heyday Star Trek.
    I understand if the length of the video is too long, but it def. gives plenty of time to disagreeing with that statement and explaining why in detail. The anger at the show isn't just b/c of the violence.

  7. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by GulDukat View Post
    ... I also felt that the Data's goodbye in STP felt far more emotional than the onein Nemesis, which seemed kind of shoehorned in only for dramatic effect.
    Nemesis was bad, and killing Data in Nemesis compounded the bad. There were rumors back then that it was done because Brent felt he was aging too much to continue the roll, and that's back in the early 2000s. I obviously don't know if that was true, but if it is, it makes things even more bizarre that he'd agree to bring the character back from the grave 18 years later, just so Data can be killed better.

    I dunno man. This show... I just don't know. Maybe if I watch it again sometime it might click for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbie solo View Post
    OriginallyPosted by Dr Channard
    “It's a pretty good story telling show that pays all kinds of homage to heyday Star Trek.”

    I understand if the length of the video is too long, but it def. gives plenty of time to disagreeing with that statement and explaining why in detail. The anger at the show isn't just b/c of the violence.
    Sorry man, my sentence there might have been confusing. I was referring to a different show called The Orville, not ST: Picard. Two completely different shows. The Orville is a sci-fi comedy-drama series inspired heavily by old era Star Trek. For people who are missing what they got from 80s-90s era Star Trek it might be worth their time to give The Orville a chance, they might find what they're looking for there.

    But yeah, back on topic, I fully get the criticism of ST: Picard. I watched the first season and a whole lot of the show felt like it required me to unplug from what I know (and maybe enjoyed) about Star Trek, not ask questions, and just go with it. Some people are okay with that and some aren't. My thought is for those who don't like it, to drop the “burn the witch” mentality and simply move on to something else. Just moving on is a powerful thing. If viewership numbers or subscriptions aren't good for long enough, that will get the attention of the powers at CBS/Paramount much better than these personal attacks on forums and such. It's worth adding that this isn't a new problem. I'd contend that CBS and Paramount haven't done much good with the franchise in almost two decades. Examples:

    - The TNG cast movies were bad, fan support dwindled, Paramount got the message and scraped the TNG films.

    - ST: Enterprise was a fumble, fans stopped supporting it, CBS got the message and canceled it.

    - 09 reboot films were another ouch, they weren't seeing the fan turnout and fiscal returns hoped for, and they also look to be dead now.

    From what I've seen so far, Discovery and Picard aren't the saviors either. Much the same can be said about Disney Star Wars, I thought the new trilogy was a train-wreck, but whatever. Just time to move on to something else. The personal attacks on these people (K. Kennedy, R. Johnson, J.J. Abrams, A. Kurtzman, or any of the actors) is silly. These aren't Nazi war criminals, they're just people hired to do a job and make a buck for their company. Don't like what they're doing, don't give them your buck, time or attention. Direct it to something more worthwhile.
    Last edited by Dr Channard; 05-23-2020 at 04:27 PM.

  8. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Channard View Post
    Nemesis was bad, and killing Data in Nemesis compounded the bad. There were rumors back then that it was done because Brent felt he was aging too much to continue the roll, and that's back in the early 2000s. I obviously don't know if that was true, but if it is, it makes things even more bizarre that he'd agree to bring the character back from the grave 18 years later, just so Data can be killed better.
    It’s amazing how viewers can get such different things from the same show.

    Spoiler: This entire season of Picard represents mortality. Themes and symbols of mortality and immortality are present, from beginning to end. Data represents immortality, but Data didn’t want to be immortal; Data never really “died.” Data expresses the burden of immortality. Every one of the characters manifests their own existential crisis. Rios is reading a book.
    https://heavy.com/entertainment/2020...lot-rios-book/

    “existential pain of living with the consciousness of death.”

    This is based on several philosophies, including Buddhism.

    Consciousness of death. Who has that in this series? Which characters? Which characters are immortal? What is the value of life without death?


    Now, that’s not saying I didn’t have problems with this series. I did. This article perfectly sums up most of those issues. [Contains spoilers.]
    Last edited by allegro; 05-23-2020 at 12:07 PM.

  9. #459
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    Brent Spiner did say that he felt he was becoming too old to play Data when Nemesis came out. And if you look at the writing credits for Nemesis, John Logan wrote the movie based on a story from Rick Berman, Brent and Logan himself. "Killing" Data was Brent's idea.

    But, of course, at the very end of the movie, the fact that Data may not be really gone forever was planted when B-4 started singing Blue Skies, the song Data had sung earlier in the movie.

    Am I the only one who believe that there was some CGI de-ageing done on Data in the Picard series? That might be one of the reasons why Brent came back. And also the fantastic storyline between Data and Picard.

    Also: what @allegro said, of course.

  10. #460
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    i love all of the TNG movies \_(ツ)_/ i think First Contact is tied with Khan as the best Star Trek film, and i think they're two of the best science fiction movies ever made.

    Insurrection is a lot better than i remembered from seeing it in the theater (watched it last year for the first time since), but it's not amazing by any means.

    Nemesis isn't great but it's not as bad as a lot of people make it out to be. it's at least fun!

  11. #461
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    Here is a nice write-up on Captain Pike, played by Mount.
    https://apnews.com/0c42f4bba742fe63e...L151OX6nsf0LFo

  12. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by GulDukat View Post
    Yeah, much better title. There are some really good episodes of Enterprise, but the show was pretty uneven.
    Bakula was the weakest link. After that, sure, some characters ebbed and flowed from strengths and weaknesses but overall, Bakula was being outclassed by everyone else on the cast.

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