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Faceplams: The media are going to have a field day with this. Make that a field summer.
Throbbing Member
The media are going to have a field day with this. Make that a field summer.
tempus est umbra in mente
Anderson Cooper comes out of the closet
The only reason this is surprising to me is because I thought it was already commonly known that he was gay.
Although if you want to make yourself sick, read the user comments on that article. That is quite possibly the biggest grouping of ignorant and vile stupidity I've ever seen on a non-conservative rant site.
Bent Member
What am I missing? I clicked through quite a few replies, and they all seemed to be of some variety...
So what?
Duh.
Who's next, (insert celebrity name here)?
VVV That's actually what I would have expected. Guess the trolls all shot their wads early. : /
Last edited by jessamineny; 07-02-2012 at 04:24 PM.
tempus est umbra in mente
When I clicked on it, it seemed like the comments were completely dominated by people saying crazy homophobic stuff, but it's updating so fast it's hard to keep track. Maybe the comments comparing him to Sandusky and saying he was going to go to hell etc were the immediate result of it being linked on Drudge.Originally Posted by jessamineny
Last edited by Jinsai; 07-02-2012 at 05:48 PM.
FATUM NOS IUNGET
Active Member
I too thought everyone knew this one. At least he's talking about it now with purpose. This country is so homophobic.
Member
Man, the loss of a true icon. I didn't know he was sick or anything. He seemed so lively till the end.
Active Member
Frank Ocean comes out.
I'm not gonna lie; I had to Google who that was. I'm officially out of touch.
Anyway, that's pretty awesome. I'm hoping this isn't as big of a deal as it used to be, and with each successive famous person who comes out, I hope this becomes less and less of a big deal. This sort of thing certainly contributes to that.
Edit: WOW. It's worth reading his actual blog post. Really moving.
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yeah, seems like a pretty big deal both for hip hop at large and specifically for the whole odd future crew. it's interesting given some of the incredibly homophobic lyrics of other Odd Future members. I wonder if he was out to them or not. And Syd tha Kyd, who is lesbian, just re-tweeted this: "People say Odd Future is homophobic and it turns out they're the most LGBT-friendly music group in America. I love irony."
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If that were true, the country's worse off than I thought it was. I read some of his post this morning and was thinking. If the other members of the group knew this beforehand they have to be the worse band mates and friends ever. Openly making fun of and making a career out of trashing gays while two of your members are is just unthinkable and disgusting. If they didn't know I hope this changes them, or at least forces them to grow up a bit. The very people they get off on trashing are the very people who have helped them get to where they are. They should feel ashamed either way.
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Well since the news came out, both Tyler and Earl (who are generally responsible for the most aggressively homophobic lyrics) have been on twitter saying really supportive things to Frank.
I mean, you can't just dismiss that tweet entirely. Odd Future really is quite remarkable. Of course there have been plenty of openly gay rappers already, but they've all been really obscure and unknown. OF really is the first major hip hop group to have openly gay members, and it's just so weird given how much homophobia they produce simultaneously.
Throbbing Member
Blind rage is always easy when you don't have a familiar face to place along with where the hate is being aimed. This is not one but two people from within, and one was already out. Yet you continue to spew your hate bullshit and showed no signs of stopping. I applaud Frank for what he did, but can you imagine the knife in the back feeling he must have been going through. A few tweets can't change that. Last year when Jay-Z became a father he said he would never use the word bitch again. I read a article with the writer asking that while that was wonderful. He's been using the word since he's been married to his beautiful wife. Why didn't that stop him? Is that a bit different, yes, but I ask the same question. If you had one member who was out, why didn't you stop there? That makes it look worse to me, and a few overnight tweets can't change the reputation they've built for themselves over the last few years. /Rant
Vertiginous Member
Never listened to Odd Future, but it does bring back flashbacks of Eminem - notorious for homophobic lyrics, but like much of his act, it wasn't intended seriously. Ended up performing a duet with Elton John, and cashing in on the image with an arse-in-face skit with Sacha Baron-Cohen for Bruno.
Not to say it's remotely morally justifiable, but rap tends to inhabit a strange, ultra-offensive fictional universe. How many gangster rappers today actually spend their weekends doing drivebys? And I'm guessing Dr. Dre doesn't get his wife in the mood by saying "I just wanna fuck bad bitches."
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I obviously don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that Frank just isn't bothered by it. OF is a really tight group of friends. Syd has said that she isn't phased in the least bit by what they say, and has said something to the effect of "they treat me as an equal" and that that's all she cares about.
Honestly, I really don't think Tyler is actually some hateful homophobic person, he just says totally non-PC stuff for the same reason he raps about cannibalism and rape and draws swastikas on stuff. He isn't a real-life cannibal nazi rapist, he just wants attention. I'm not even commenting on whether that's right or not, I'm just saying that I doubt Syd and Frank take any of it very seriously or have any "knife in the back" feelings about the group.
Throbbing Member
The problem is that while the performers are usually aware of the disconnect, and plenty of people in general are smart enough to assume it, an equal (and frustratingly large) group of people take all the image and weird boasting very seriously, and try to emulate their heroes. I know, because I teach those kids and they do call their girlfriends 'bitch' and pass them around like a freebee toke, they do think violence is cool and they do bully and beat up gay people. And it's quite difficult to explain to them that actually, most of those rappers they adore, are rather different in real life. I managed to find an interview with (of all people!) 50 Cents where he talks about homosexuality in a rather moderate and friendly fashion, and they thought I made it up myself. So...
When you create art, whatever it is, and send it into the world, I do think you have a measure of responsibility to make sure people don't misinterpret what you're doing. I think certain hiphop acts, notably Eminem and the Beastie Boys, made it quite clear that their views on homosexuality had evolved, but I don't see too many other players of worth make those statements.
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^Yeah but it's precisely for that very reason that Odd Future is pretty different and interesting. It's not like with some rappers where you gotta dig up some obscure interview quote where they begrudgingly say "Well, I guess gay people aren't that bad." With OF, it's a major part of their group's identity, because Syd and Frank are two of the most prominent members of the group. Every single OF fan in the entire world is aware that Syd and Frank (now that he's out) are gay. So it just makes you think, like, what really does happen when a bunch of kids emulate Odd Future? It's kinda simplistic to just be like "OF are hateful bigots, period."
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I think you're missing Elke's and my point. Just because you don't think that Tyler(and I'm singling him out because he's seen as the face of/leader) isn't homophobic doesn't mean others don't. We're posting on a band's fan forum. I don't think that makes us your average fan. Not everyone is like that, some people just hear the message, process it and emulate it. The fact that two members of the band are gay doesn't change the fact that some pretty shit things have been said. About a year ago I think Sara of Tegan and Sara wrote this long blog post intended for Tyler asking him why he stoops so low as to have gay bashing be a prominent part of his message. His reply back was if you or your sister ever need some dick hit me up. I honestly don't think he's smart enough to realize what he is contributing to. When the group first started to become popular I was intrigued. I was glad to see rap back in the hands of angry young black men, instead of the money hungry bullshit most rappers are now. Then I took a listen, and regretted what I had wished for. I'll say this again, the fact that the other members still made gay bashing part of their rhymes while they had one known member of the group out is distasteful. Now that there are two members out its completely selfish. If it keeps up not only will the other members look like complete assholes, but Frank Ocean and Syd will look like they have no self respect. I wouldn't be friends/collaborate with someone who's main talent was to put down people of my ilk. I would like my friends to treat me with a bit more respect.
Throbbing Member
It's a bit like the whole Beenie Man thing: if you come from a country where people are lynched and raped for being gay and you sing homophobic songs, you're an asshole, period.
So in this case, if you come from a country where people are being bullied and beated to death for being gay and you sing homophobic songs... there you go.
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No, but the fact that some pretty shit things have been said doesn't change the fact that Syd and Frank are gay. It's like having the first black president. They're the biggest hip hop group in forever and they have two gay members. It's a big deal. I remember wondering when we'd get our first gay rapper, and now we have two. That's kinda game-changing.
I understand what you're saying, because I always imagine these awkward moments where Tyler is rapping something about faggots and Syd is sitting there mixing it. Seems like it would be weird, but maybe not.
Honestly though, everyone in OF seems very close, and every single member has been incredibly supportive of Frank. Tyler calls Frank his big brother. At the end of the day, I think that counts for a lot more than their over the top shock-rap songs, and I suspect that that's how Frank and Syd feel about it too. OF fans have been almost unanimously proud about this. Very few fans threatening to stop listening to him or any bullshit like that. If anything, this just adds to the group's reputation. They've always had a certain disdain for hip hop royalty, and present themselves as weird outsiders who like to piss people off. So this is just one more controversy in a long list of many, one more thing that makes them fun and different. The hype around Frank's upcoming album (which was already huge) just tripled after this.
Seriously, all things considered, OF is a positive influence.
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But, and I think that's quite important, only if you know them well enough. If you're just a random teenager downloading shit that sounds good onto your iPod, you'll think 'Oh yeah, those faggots really need to get their ass screwed tight' and that's it. And that is a problem.
It's a bit like the obvious misogyny in the entire hiphop culture, and especially in a lot of rap lyrics. Young men I taught in Brussels actually address their girlfriends as bitches and putes, and meant it as a sort of claim over them as well as a token of affection. And girls figured that in a sexual relationship, the pleasure of their man came first. Whenever we discussed those subjects, they often went as far as referring to examples they saw on television and in lyrics to songs.
A lot of people take things at face value, don't go looking for background or better understanding, and start emulating people because they think they're cool. Adults do it all the time in naming their kids after celebrities, or celebrities' kids / dogs / album titles (or brands of very non-posh champagne). I know from working with them that kids aren't usually stupid, but they are very easily influenced by things and people they find important or knowledgeable or they respect.
So, in conclusion, while coming out is really a big and positive step, and even bigger step would be to say: You know what, we're not going to do the homophobic shit anymore, and if we do, we'll add some rhymes that bash breeders.
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All the stuff I've mentioned is brought up in the very music itself. Syd's sexuality was talked about in one of the very first big OF songs, and it's referenced in a bunch of other songs too. She has a music video showing her making out with other women. Frank hasn't really been out long enough for this to have become a topic in their songs yet, but I can almost guarantee that it'll show up in their future lyrics, it's too gotten way too much media attention for them to ignore it.
And Tyler's big brother view of Frank is something I got straight from their songs, not some interview. It's in "Oldie," which is the same song where he says something like 'this is for the kids who got called weird, fag, bitch, nerd, cause you was into jazz, cats, and Steven Spielberg." The sort of weird, self-contradicting place that OF occupies isn't something that people pick up by digging through obscure internet articles. It's in the very music itself, and I see it represented in the fans too (probably most succinctly when I saw some youtube commenter the other day say "fuck all them homophobic faggots").
You would have to be the dumbest listener ever to not understand this about them. I suppose that must happen, I used to know someone who didn't realize that Rage Against the Machine was a political band after owning their albums for several years, but I think people that dense are in the minority.
Throbbing Member
You'd be surprised.
I'll leave the argument with this. The band has no control over who listens to them and what they take from it. It seems what you hear and what I hear are different. I'm a black gay dude and the taste left in my mouth is just too bitter. Even if the band aren't bashing gays left and right, they're leaving the door open for someone who doesn't get the joke. That's my problem, Odd Future don't need a Mark David Chapman on their hands.
tempus est umbra in mente
I'm not a big Odd Future fan, but the only homophobic lyrics I remember are the ones addressing Bruno Mars, and while I'm not homophobic, you can say whatever the fuck you want about that guy and his shitty music.
Active Member
I think Frank Ocean recognizes the ridiculous sense of humor Tyler and the gang have. I also think he recognizes that he's too old to get his panties in a bunch over what a bunch of manchildren have to say.
Props to him.
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Ernest Borgnine, a legend, dead at 95.
Hierba Gatera
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Last Time...http://iran-ed.tumblr.com/post/26858...calnotebook-be
FATUM NOS IUNGET
Throbbing Member
I agree with everything you and Elke are saying. My main argument would be that Odd Future isn't really different to mainstream radio rap when it comes down to it. They follow the same cues, by rapping about the same exact things that the trash on the radio does. Bitches and hoes, faggots, and going hard. You cannot separate music and rape culture, gay bashing culture, and misogyny. You just can't. These aren't satirical artists making social statements about the ills of these things. they are doing the exact same thing with background music thats a bit better than the trash on the radio, however their messages and their place within a societal and cultural context are exactly the same. When they gay bash they aren't doing it because the art calls for it, they are doing it to make money because thats what kids want to hear because its all they've heard all their lives. We aren't saying they shouldn't be allowed to make the music they make but there is obviously a difference between following a culture and perpetuating its existence and doing something because it simply MUST be done artistically. It's business and they have nothing better to say than Lil' wayne and all those other shit hacks, lyrically (at least so far). I think people should look at least realize that....If you admit there is a problem when it comes to rap and how we treat gay people and women, you can't exactly ignore the people literally preaching these ideas the most loudly just because there's a beat behind it. Btw were not saying this is all wrong just because its offensive or that we have a stick up our ass like "dag nabbit those darn kids." This contributing to culture in which real people with real lives are being treated like crap and are victims of violence on a systematic level. This isn't like a serial killer movie that "might" inspire a crazy kid to kill someone. This shit is EVERYWHERE and just about every woman (myself included) and gay person has been victimized by this shit in their every day lives.
Also since when does having gay members decrease someone's role in homophobia? Associating with people who identify with an oppressed group does not automatically make your actions and your existence a positive force. You have to actively fight culture or else you are indistinguishable from the oppressor. Forget combatting this culture Tyler and Co. have made themselves the poster boys for it.
Disclaimer: When I talk about hip hop culturally I am talking specifically about mainstream artists you've all heard of. I'm not accusing underground artists of contributing to this. But I'll still call it hip hop culture since it is such a systematic problem . These aren't a few ass hole individual, and the problem does not just affect a few dumb kids who don't know any better. I'm saying all this because IM sick of being treated the way I do. Im sick of being called a bitch and people thinking they can treat me like im in a rap video when I go out. This has to stop.
Last edited by littlemonkey613; 07-13-2012 at 09:26 PM.
FATUM NOS IUNGET
Sylvester Stallone's son Sage found dead.
Fucking sucks. Sly was probably riding high after SDCC and now this...
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