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Thread: The Smashing Pumpkins

  1. #3811
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadaloo View Post
    Well, you gotta give him this. The unpredictability factor's still in play: nobody saw this direction coming, whatever it is.
    According to recent interviews that was exactly the point. Just doing what they feel like without putting any thought into what the public or fans want them to sound like.

  2. #3812
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    I think Billy and Morrissey should tour together. Talk about 2 guys who burned whatever legacy they had to the ground and then napalmed it

  3. #3813
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    Ouch!
    Now this is one hell of a review...

    Album: Smashing Pumpkins – Cyr

    Grunge veterans pump out a joyless dirge.

    It’s almost a truism in rock'n'roll that within every padded and bloated double album, there’s a fine single disc waiting to burst out. Among the plethora of tunes on Smashing Pumpkins’ first double album since 1995's fine Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness, however, there’s barely enough to fill a worthwhile EP. In fact, given the joyless musical Mogadon on offer on Cyr, even that might be something of a stretch.

    Flat and uninspiring tunes follow dreary and unmemorable dirges almost without pause for great swathes of the 70 minutes or so of Smashing Pumpkins’ latest effort. “The colour of your love is grey” sings mainman Billy Corgan on the opening track and it pretty much describes everything to be found within Cyr. Synth-heavy and almost riff-free songs such as “Wrath”, “Ramona” and “Anno Satanna” trundle along in a mid-tempo plod and it’s not until almost half-way into the album that “Wyttch” raises its head to inject anything approaching a groove. By this point, however, it requires a concerted effort to pay any attention to whatever’s limping out of the speakers. It has to be said that things don’t get any more engaging with the likes of the bumbling “Telegenix”, “Adrennalynne” and “Haunted” during the second half of this seemingly endless long player either.


    This writer’s last experience of Smashing Pumpkins was to be in the audience for their disappointing performance at 2019’s Download Festival, where Corgan appeared on stage dressed as the Addams Family’s Uncle Fester and his band of personality-free miseries struggled to show any enthusiasm whatsoever during their set. Unfortunately, very little seems to have changed in the last year or so and it’s almost impossible to believe that the Smashing Pumpkins on Cyr is, with the exception of long-ousted former bassist D’Arcy Wretzky, the same band that once gave the world tunes like the glorious “Cherub Rock”, “Bullet with Butterfly Wings” and “Drown”.


    https://theartsdesk.com/new-music/album-smashing-pumpkins-–-cyr



  4. #3814
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    Oof.

  5. #3815
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    I think the Pumpkins have surpassed the Pixies when it comes to most embarrassing reunions. Both very similar. Shitty live shows. Even more shitty new albums. Sacking the female bass player and OG member because the singer is an egomaniac.

  6. #3816
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    I see what you're saying but the Pumpkins have vastly exceeded the errors made by the Pixies. I can't speak for the recent live shows because I haven't seen them, the new Pixies records are okay but obviously not up to par (still it fits nicely in the realm of their previous music) and even though it sucks that Kim left (The Breeders > Pixies), they couldn't have found a better replacement than Paz.

    What the Pumpkins are doing seems deliberately designed to shit on their fans for enjoying what they have released previously. The new music doesn't feel inspired. No one actually believes Billy was COMPELLED to write a song called "The Colour of Love", right? His songwriting abilities have reached the lowest of lows. What sucks is I know he's fucking capable of still writing great music! It's so frustrating! All of the stuff that's brilliant is never recorded and forgotten about. I don't get it.

  7. #3817
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    I could totally see how the hostility on this thread could lead into a terrible negative feedback loop with Billy Corgan, where he’s actively trying to piss fans off, if it’s replicated in the wider fanbase

  8. #3818
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    This album desperately sounds like Billy trying to remain relevant and appeal to the current generation of pretentious hipster Starbucking, Lady Gaga/Drake loving, young cool kids out there. I think Billy believes he can win over a new generation with this garbage. It's like if the 1979 video was a Gap commercial.

    Billy should take his own lyrics as a warning... "Cool kids never have the time" ...and they won't have the time for Billy's Uncle Fester cosplaying old ass.

  9. #3819
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    Man, I hope I'll never take a band changing their sound that personal.

  10. #3820
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    “Perfect” already was the GAP commercial version of 1979



    and on the subject of trying to be pop or mainstream, SP have done this before. There’s a lot of discussion about Adore going back in this thread, let’s not act like that album doesn’t exist.

  11. #3821
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndItKeepsRepeating View Post
    “Perfect” already was the GAP commercial version of 1979



    and on the subject of trying to be pop or mainstream, SP have done this before. There’s a lot of discussion about Adore going back in this thread, let’s not act like that album doesn’t exist.
    Adore is far from pop/mainstream. It's actually a downer of an album.

    When I hear folks trying to compare Cyr to Adore, I think, "What crack are you smoking?" I wouldn't call Perfect a Gap video. It's Billy trying hard to make 1979 again. Perfect isn't trying to be flashy like the latest iPhone ad or a new pair of Levi's. It's just a regurgitation of what was.

    All the videos from Zeitgeist to now have been cheap looking and just shit.
    Last edited by neorev; 11-21-2020 at 08:21 PM.

  12. #3822
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    Hey, Perfect is a great song! Sure, it's treading the same musical territory as 1979 and could be an attempt at recreating that hit (though 1979 is undoubtedly superior), but I'd love to get a song with that much authenticity in 2020. At least every song on that record you could tell he was really trying and his heart was in it. That's certainly not always the case these days.

  13. #3823
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    The last album did not crack the top 50 on the Billboard 200. Knowing Billy, he probably looked at the Billboard charts every hour to see how the album did and was devastated. Not even cracking the top 50 is a catastrophic result for a guy so desperate to be relevant again....Case in point: Mike Patton's band Mr Bungle, who goes out of their way to alienate people and could care less about chart positions, just hit number 30 on the Billboard 200 with an album of re-recorded songs from their high school 1986 demo tape....And Billy boys "reunion" album could not crack the top 50 lmao

  14. #3824
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    Pumpkins and Pixies have both done a similarly terrible job with their reunions/legacies; I think the one that feels worse is whichever band you were closer to in their prime.

    What baffles me right now is that we have have received half of the Cyr album in the form of singles, and I am still struggling to figure out exactly what my expectations for this album should be. I was initially repelled by Cyr and Colour of Love, but liked Wrath and Confessions well enough to keep my interest afloat. Then, I was really underwhelmed by Anno Satana and Birch Grove, both of which feel very lukewarm and underdeveloped to me, and I started expecting the album to suck again. Ramona is solid, though, and Wyttch hints at a unique atmosphere I didn't see coming; I wouldn't say I like either song, but both of them intrigued me. Now, with Purple Blood and Dulcet, I genuinely like both of them, and I maybe even would go so far as to say I love Purple Blood. PB sounds like what I expected Adore to sound like, and Dulcet has a great melody that reminds me of the softer songs on Mellon Collie. I like Billy's vocals on both of them. Now that I'm starting to listen to them all together, I'm starting to sense this album might have something to it-- an atmosphere that goes a little deeper than I initially anticipated. The Pumpkins DNA present in these songs largely comes from that period of one-off releases between Mellon Collie and Adore. There were these dark, cryptic, and dangerous feeling tracks like Eye and The End is the Beginning... which seemed to promise that SP was heading into a darker electronic territory, something more adjacent with NIN than the grunge bands or any of the other major players in the 90s alternative scene they were frequently compared with. This was *kind of* the case with Adore, but not really-- the album never leaned fully into that sound. I anticipate that the back half of Cyr will either amplify this feeling, or will continue the grab bag feel and just kind of become this loose collection of synthy pop songs, much like Monuments, which isn't memorable or interesting at all after more than 3 or 4 listens. At this point, the only song that I like less than the first time I heard it is Colour of Love-- that song just does nothing for me whatsoever.

  15. #3825
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    What's wrong with the Pixies' comeback (apart from Deal not being a part of it...)?

  16. #3826
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    Quote Originally Posted by r_z View Post
    What's wrong with the Pixies' comeback (apart from Deal not being a part of it...)?

    https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/18560-pixies-ep-1/

    https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/18875-pixies-ep-2/

  17. #3827
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    Did you just seriously used a p*******k review as an argument? Like, for real?

  18. #3828
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    Quote Originally Posted by fillow View Post
    Did you just seriously used a p*******k review as an argument? Like, for real?

    Not that I care about Pitchfork but those reviews are very entertaining and basically summarize how 95% of the Pixies fanbase feels

  19. #3829
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    No they don't lol

  20. #3830
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    Shit ton of Machina updates from Instagram. They're mixing now.


    -Billy, Howard Willing and Dave Schiffman are overseeing the mix and remaster.
    -A studio recording of Lover from Almost Acoustic Christmas '98 exists and is on the reissue
    -There will be no DVD this time
    -He will be writing the liner notes as with prior reissues
    -They are both doing new mixes and choosing from ones that already exist
    -In a few cases, Machina 2 mixes will be those present on the reissue.
    -Is now on the fence about actually including crowd noise and banter during the planned 'concert segment' of the album. (This is something he brought up as having been a plan in 2013)
    -Says full remixes have potential to sound much better than original masters, but the improvement will be evident even using the original mixes.
    -Things were recorded to analog and archived to DAT.

    -Le Deux Machina has no real master tape, only 3 digital recordings to stereo. No indication of what was the originating master - I'm guessing that's shorthand for original version - they chose the best one and added new overdubs.

    -Stand Inside Your Love has a few options to work with - a new mix from master tapes, a dat mix from 1999, or 2 different tape transfers also from 1999. The tape transfers made from the M1 safety mixes were done incorrectly as they had used Dolby SR - which is apparently a problem - so new tape transfers need to be done.

    -I of The Mourning was mentioned as being worked on next but not specifically in what way.

    -He mentioned that from the 1999 mixes, several options are available: Digital Audio Tape, Master Analog Tape, Safety Analog Tape (backup in case something happens to the original). Original masters were transferred by the label in 2014. Hope is that the never-played Safety tapes, never played and using new technology, would yield a better result. Digital tape sounds more modern and present, so this is the source chosen for Crying Tree of Mercury.

    -A previously unreleased track, Promise, was run through various vinyl and speaker simulations to achieve a certain sound.

    -Slow Dawn has been mixed from the original masters, which was complicated as the live band take was originally done at Pumpkinland on an ADAT recorder and then later transferred onto analog tape for additional vocals/overdubs. He described the new mix as a vast sonic improvement from the M2 version.

    -Sacred and Profane - One of 7 tracks whose master tape reels were lost - apparently a long story. He mentioned that it's possible their parent company for the record has safety copies of the original 24 track reels, but he chose not to bother as he said it was doubtful they'd send them to be used, and since they were recorded with Dolby SR - a tricky process with 24 track reels -he also doubts any transfer made by a third party would be satisfactory. So they're instead using a 'vox up' version off tape. Distinguishable from the original, where he describes the vocal as 'buried'.

    -Everlasting Gaze: Masters also lost. However, Alan Moulder's original mix off 2-track Analog tape is good and sounds more 3-dimensional with modern conversion techniques.

    -Here's To The Atom Bomb v1 - The version we know is a rough mix done by Flood as they recorded the song. Master tapes are present, have been used for the mix. Now sounds groovy, a little clearer, a good document of them playing live straight to tape.

    -Glass' Theme: Tricky. Fun trivia: Has 4 rhythm guitars, overdubs, and 7(!) tracks of bass, Original drums recorded by Flood, guitars and bass recorded by Billy and Howard during M2 sessions, fall 2000.

    -Heavy Metal Machine: Lost masters, but a Vox up 1/2 decibel version is present. Clears original mix up, sounds great.

    -BSBT heavy version: Complicated. One master reel missing. A mixable version is present on another reel, but this version has distorted experimental vocals, and they can't say for sure whether all parts needed for mix are present. However many 2 track tape mixes from M2 sessions are available to choose from, so whatever is better is what gets chosen for final sequence. Went with new mix from the remaining master. Distorted vocals are a challenge but was chosen over M2 versions.

    -Pale Scales: A version is present from Pumpkinland, Billy thought it was from The Riviera Theatre tour rehearsal space. Bass replayed and additional music added.

    -Vanity: Fresh mix being done, described as a beautiful update from the M2 mix. Was originally done live by the band at Pumpkinland with a vocal added later, 'you get a real sense of what they sounded like in there when playing'.

    -'Le Deux Machina 3': Variant of the theme recorded at Billy's home onto a DAT machine w/ new overdubs added this year.

    -Glass And The Ghost Children: Original master reels lost, but original mixes from Billy's old API board at Pumpkinland are present. Will be using original master mix from two-track analog tape. Was originally recorded in 2 parts. First was live performance with James on guitar, Billy on bass and JC on drums. Vocals added later.
    Last edited by Shadaloo; 11-25-2020 at 09:57 PM.

  21. #3831
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    There is a lot to unpack there. Thanks for sharing. Shame about the missing masters, hopefully what they have to work with yields good results. Really looking forward to this one. Shame about no DVD though.

    Also I can't be the only that's a tiny bit paranoid about the vocal up mixes :P

  22. #3832
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    Re: DVD
    From Billy's sporadic updates over the years, it looks like it may still be planned but as a separate release. And it's not a part of the Machina box because it's already huge enough. (Calling BS on that, no way it's gonna be bigger than 6CD+1DVD TAFH box).

  23. #3833
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    -He's clarifies the missing masters were stolen
    -Mixing is quick because all songs have been 'prep-mixed'.
    -There were cases on prior reissues where there was trouble locating tape sources too
    -Vanity is the same take, just much clearer
    -Combining multiple sources for a cohesive sound is challenging
    -Mike Garson's take of Le Deux Machina from the FAEOMM tape is on the reissue
    -Says current technology allows for a very deep and clear listening experience
    -No live tour performances on the reissue box, there's simply too much material
    -Believes they have the masters for Real Love EDIT: Nope, missing apparenty
    -Matt Walker's GATMOG mixes may be present as bonus material, it's been discussed
    -No graphic artist yet
    -After MII garnered interest back in the day, they tried to put out an expanded Machina edition, Virgin said no
    -Many acoustic takes that have never been bootlegged, some will make the reissue
    -Would eventually like to issue the original mixes for MI and II in the future
    -Will there be new vocal takes or overdubs? "Yes and no."
    -Final mix still won't match up to his vision, and not because of master tapes - SO much was simply never 'finished' past a certain stage. Views it as an incomplete movie.
    -Only way the movie is finished is if 'the whole work is performed live with an added cast'.
    -Lack of dynamic range on original CD was the way he wanted it
    -'Maybe 51 tracks, maybe less or more'
    -Other band members haven't done overdubs up to this point
    -Some mixes are hard to do because of sheer distortion, but there's flexibility
    -There are some tracks that he says 'can't be fixed'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disassociative View Post
    Also I can't be the only that's a tiny bit paranoid about the vocal up mixes :P
    I was too, but he specified that the HMM mix they chose had the vox a half decibel up, so that's negligible (For reference, something about 10 decibels louder is generally twice as loud as something 1db).


    Also Cyr is now in the wild, gonna go take a bus ride and throw it on
    Last edited by Shadaloo; 11-28-2020 at 06:00 PM.

  24. #3834
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    I mean, if the DVD intended was the final metro show, that makes sense – it'd be like 2 DVDs minimum, so add that to 2(?) discs for the album running order and 3+(?) discs for bonuses and live cuts, you're already at 7 discs. I had assumed it would have been the largest box just because it would also have had the original album mixes, but that seems to be out of the running.

    Or there's no DVD because there's a Bluray.

  25. #3835
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    drip drip.... About to strap in and give this a shot.... fingers crossed...

  27. #3837
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    Quote Originally Posted by valiantsteed View Post
    drip drip.... About to strap in and give this a shot.... fingers crossed...
    Just came to post about it... for the 3 or 4 people who care. I'm kind of surprised it took this long to leak!

  28. #3838
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    I just came back from giving it a spin.

    Album should have stopped right after Black Forest, Black Hills.

    The last several tracks are meandering to godawful, and I think Tyger, Tyger might just beat out Widow Wake My Mind for the worst SP song ever. And that's saying something.

    It's the same thing as Cotillions: Twenty tracks and half of them have no business being on here, and that's coming from someone who can find stuff like Cyr and Color of Love passable.

    Not touching this again until I have the energy to go back, filter through it, and sort out my own collection of the better-passable stuff.

    I didn't think it was possible but IMO they actually did put out most of the better ones in advance. Think about that.
    Last edited by Shadaloo; 11-26-2020 at 02:34 PM.

  29. #3839
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    Got the headphones charging for a listen this afternoon. I've been trying the "Perfect" equalizer setting in iTunes and it's been working pretty well.

  30. #3840
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    Incredibly boring and lifeless. Billy has finally reached the bottom. My inner teenage self is depressed

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