Hm I dunno, I'm not the biggest SP fan but I watched 10 or so minutes of that and there was something off about it. I think the video's logic is internally inconsistent. It's reaching for an explanation for why they aren't happy with the modern albums or mixes, which is a perfectly legit opinion to have, but it's not doing a slam-dunk of pinning the problem on why, imho. I think the give-up point for me was when he was talking about drum mixing and how good Jimmy Chamberlain is then had 1979 and cuts from Adore playing.
Hm I dunno, I'm not the biggest SP fan but I watched 10 or so minutes of that and there was something off about it. I think the video's logic is internally inconsistent. It's reaching for an explanation for why they aren't happy with the modern albums or mixes, which is a perfectly legit opinion to have, but it's not doing a slam-dunk of pinning the problem on why, imho. I think the give-up point for me was when he was talking about drum mixing and how good Jimmy Chamberlain is then had 1979 and cuts from Adore playing.
I do agree it's a tad unfocused (I blinked at the Chamberlin/Adore juxtaposition too), but it's a question that has no single unique response. Many, many things now separate SP from what they were in their heyday, and I think he does a great job at highlighting a bunch of issues.
I mean, if you want to pin it on one thing and one thing only: Billy Corgan
oh wow... I was planning on going to this show tomorrow with some friends who already have tickets. For whatever reason, the second-hand market for this show is insane. I've never seen anything like it. Someone is trying to sell tickets for 4,500 dollars. "Hey, honey, wanna go on a month long trip to a bunch of tropical islands, get some sunset massages on the beach, eat fancy food until we're stuffed... or see the Smashing Pumpkins?" A pair of tickets in that section would be nine thousand dollars.
oh wow... I was planning on going to this show tomorrow with some friends who already have tickets. For whatever reason, the second-hand market for this show is insane. I've never seen anything like it. Someone is trying to sell tickets for 4,500 dollars. "Hey, honey, wanna go on a month long trip to a bunch of tropical islands, get some sunset massages on the beach, eat fancy food until we're stuffed... or see the Smashing Pumpkins?" A pair of tickets in that section would be nine thousand dollars.
The show is tomorrow. How does this add up?
I looked at StubHub and saw one for $2100 and one for $3100, crazy.
The 4-day Phish events that they have in Cancun (Riviera Maya), all-inclusive, are about $3000 a person.
so, at tonight's show, Will Smith's daughter joined the Pumpkins on stage to play guitar on Cherub Rock.
There were already three guitarists on stage. I think they could have pulled it off without Willow. Also, only three songs from Siamese Dream, and one of them was a jammed out version of Silverfuck? No Disarm, no Rocket, no Quiet, no Geek USA... They played more from Mellancollie, but I could have done without We Only Come Out at Night... and that acoustic version of Tonight Tonight. The cover of Talking Heads' song Once in a Lifetime didn't work for me, and I personally would have traded it out for Everlasting Gaze, Bodies, Rocket, 33... or anything.
Also, they sounded just muddy. Jane's Addiction actually sounded really good. There was separation of the instruments, the balance was awesome, and by comparison SP sounded kinda rough... though all the crazy guitar solos were awesome, and Chamberlain is a way more amazing drummer than I realized. His drum solo at the end of... it was either Adore or Eye... just crazy.
But all my complaints aside, I didn't order a pizza or something so I can't complain about the toppings. Outside of Empires (which was really sounding weird), the new songs weren't bad live. It wasn't a horrible show, but I don't really feel like it was worth the 130 dollars I paid for my ticket.
so, at tonight's show, Will Smith's daughter joined the Pumpkins on stage to play guitar on Cherub Rock.
There were already three guitarists on stage. I think they could have pulled it off without Willow. Also, only three songs from Siamese Dream, and one of them was a jammed out version of Silverfuck? No Disarm, no Rocket, no Quiet, no Geek USA... They played more from Mellancollie, but I could have done without We Only Come Out at Night... and that acoustic version of Tonight Tonight. The cover of Talking Heads' song Once in a Lifetime didn't work for me, and I personally would have traded it out for Everlasting Gaze, Bodies, Rocket, 33... or anything.
Also, they sounded just muddy. Jane's Addiction actually sounded really good. There was separation of the instruments, the balance was awesome, and by comparison SP sounded kinda rough... though all the crazy guitar solos were awesome, and Chamberlain is a way more amazing drummer than I realized. His drum solo at the end of... it was either Adore or Eye... just crazy.
But all my complaints aside, I didn't order a pizza or something so I can't complain about the toppings. Outside of Empires (which was really sounding weird), the new songs weren't bad live. It wasn't a horrible show, but I don't really feel like it was worth the 130 dollars I paid for my ticket.
I actually really dug the “Once in a Lifetime” cover (especially when Billy started screaming shit), but also would have happily traded it for something like “Bodies.”
I saw them in 2018, and the setlist was much better on that tour. They only had one opener (Metric), so they played a lot longer. Here’s the setlist from that one, for comparison:
(Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness intro)
Disarm
Rocket
Siva
Rhinoceros
Space Oddity
Drown
Zero
The Everlasting Gaze
Stand Inside Your Love
Thirty-Three
Eye
Soma
Blew Away
For Martha
To Sheila
Mayonaise
Porcelina of the Vast Oceans
Landslide
Tonight, Tonight
Stairway to Heaven
Cherub Rock
1979
Ava Adore
Try, Try, Try
The Beginning Is the End Is the Beginning
Hummer
Today
Bullet With Butterfly Wings
Muzzle
Solara
Baby Mine
Do they ever play Bodies live? That's definitely in my top 5 SP songs.
I don't think BC can sing it anymore to do it justice, despite what he claimed in some of his streams or interviews in recent years (not about Bodies specifically, but he said he doesn't scream anymore because he "doesn't want to, who the fuck told you I can't?", or something like that)
They played it like a couple years ago with Chino from Deftones as a guest.
I don't think BC can sing it anymore to do it justice, despite what he claimed in some of his streams or interviews in recent years (not about Bodies specifically, but he said he doesn't scream anymore because he "doesn't want to, who the fuck told you I can't?", or something like that)
They played it like a couple years ago with Chino from Deftones as a guest.
Well, he can't dance, but he was (every now and again) screaming his head off last night. His voice wasn't off at all really, just mixed poorly. I'd give my suggestions on what they should do to clean up their sound live, but what do I know.
Last time they did Bodies prior to Chino was 2008 or so and it was rough even then. Bill ain't got the chops for it anymore no matter what he says.
Weird about the sound because the consensus for the Canadian dates was that SP sounded great and OLP sounded terrible. Maybe they swapped sound guys.
As for We Only Come Out At Night, for me it's the equivalent of getting a NIN rarity that never ever gets played; so hush, let me have it. I'd trade any number of the big hits they do every tour for it.
As for We Only Come Out At Night, for me it's the equivalent of getting a NIN rarity that never ever gets played; so hush, let me have it. I'd trade any number of the big hits they do every tour for it.
Agreed, it's a sweet little song. There's a bootleg from 1997 where they do a verse or so from it. You can hear the crowd singing along too plus I think James and D'arcy were getting into it and starting to sing along too before he switched into Muzzle. I wanna say Rosklide?
I do agree it's a tad unfocused (I blinked at the Chamberlin/Adore juxtaposition too), but it's a question that has no single unique response. Many, many things now separate SP from what they were in their heyday, and I think he does a great job at highlighting a bunch of issues.
I mean, if you want to pin it on one thing and one thing only: Billy Corgan
:P
I think the problem is Billy Corgan producing. Even with Jimmy's "electronic" drumming it's way more full sounding than before. I agreed with much of the video actually.
Agreed, it's a sweet little song. There's a bootleg from 1997 where they do a verse or so from it. You can hear the crowd singing along too plus I think James and D'arcy were getting into it and starting to sing along too before he switched into Muzzle. I wanna say Rosklide?
I'd have to double check, but I remember that vaguely. They did it a few times on the MCIS tour and then brought it back in 2008 as a silly number with kazoos. :P
There's a lot of gems in this interview that gives some insight on the inner workings of the band (it's not like we didn't know some of this stuff, but still, I find this fascinating)
I didn’t know if I was going to join Zwan or not. James Iha joined A Perfect Circle. We did a little switcharoo. He’s kind of passing by and going, “[Whispering] I wouldn’t maybe be doing that.” A lot of people were like, “Be careful.”
It must have been great to work with Jimmy Chamberlin. He’s such a great drummer! Listen to the snare, and the way he pushes and pulls. It’s a lot of listening. With Josh Freese, I could put in a metronome. He’s perfect. He’ll work around the beat, but it’s solid. Jimmy was like wind. He was flowing in this other way that changes the way you play. He’ll push the beat. It’s more like jazz.
Tell me about recording the Zwan record, Mary Star of the Sea. What can I say? The thing is, I had two very disciplinary parents that were like, “Practice! Do this!” I do fine with dictatorships, in a sense [laughs]. Billy was very controlling, and I was OK with it. It’s like a fetish, like how people like being whipped. It’s not that I like being controlled, but it doesn’t faze me. And I can always learn something out of it. We wrote about 200 songs. It was something ridiculous like that. We wrote so many songs.
You did a huge world tour in 2003. The schedule was pretty brutal. How did that go for you? I’m going to just be blunt: If anyone is in the ring with Billy Corgan, it’s Billy Corgan. He’s been competing with himself since Siamese Dream came out. It was really affecting him. He was able to sell 16 million records in the CD era. Now we’re getting into another era. This era is not about that.
This was the Napster era. Yeah. The Napster era. That decline was affecting the 16-million-record people that were in the ring with themselves to make a better record. If a better record means how much you sell, it’s going to start to feel humbling pretty soon, no matter how good you are. I think that era was affecting him.
And it's still affecting him, I think. The tours in big arenas, the ambitious triple concept albums. (side note: I went to the San Francisco show and I thought it was not going to be well attended since it was in a basketball arena, and it was almost full, I think having Jane's as co-headliner helped with ticket sales)
He’s spoken many times about the breakup of the band. He said, “The music wasn’t the big problem, it was more their attitude. Sex acts between band members in public. People carrying drugs across borders…” This is so Billy-esque [laughs]. He also liked conflict. His thing was, “If we’re going to fight, let’s just do it in the media.” And he has a voice in Chicago with the Chicago Tribune. That’s the way he communicated with people. That’s how he broke up the band. He didn’t communicate to us we were broken up.
He really trashed the band. He said he “detested” everyone and they got huge egos and spent all this money on lobster dinners and whatnot. He wanted us to fight back. At this time, my brother just killed himself. It was that same day. He knew that. My brother’s band opened up for us. He knew that, and was talking about family. I can’t remember. But I didn’t read the article. It was told to me later since I was dealing with family situations. If anything, I was relieved at that point. I had to take care of a lot of things. My brother was my best friend. Billy knew that, and he did this anyway. I didn’t care. I was in another place. It took a lot of healing. I wasn’t prepared in that state to be any major band for a while. I started to do a lot of Drag City touring. I had to figure out how to get my footing back into the world of music.
That's a really shitty way to deal with something like this. But then again, it seems like Paz doesn't hold any grudges against Billy (besides her coloring book he lost), she seems like a level-headed person.
This is somewhat random, but they really need to put out a big Zwan box one day. There’s so much music that nobody has ever heard. I know. Billy has it all. Also, we can’t really find this record anywhere. He kind of took it out. It’s not on Spotify or anything.
That’s more his control. Maybe one day he’ll put something out and give peace to whatever built up…He says he can’t listen to the record since it makes him too angry. He especially seems to have issues with David. But it’s been 20 years now.
I feel more sad for him, whatever he has going on that makes him have anxieties. I don’t know. I think it’s a good record. I forget about that. Once in a while, a song will come up and I’ll be like, “Oh yeah!” I love a lot of the guitar work on it. The 12-strings, the lyrics, it’s all really beautiful. It has a Byrds twinkly sound to it.
What issues does BC have with David Pajo?
Last edited by cahernandez; 11-28-2022 at 11:07 AM.
AVC: Had Slint broken up by then? DP: Yeah, I was doing Palace with Will, and I think exploring stuff like The Grateful Dead fit our whole mentality then. Grunge was huge at that point, and it seemed like me and my friends went the opposite route. We went deeper into folk music and country music and blues. When I was in Zwan, Billy got so mad at me when he found out I didn't know any Smashing Pumpkins songs. He would say, "You haven't heard '1979'?" But I didn't listen to any of that shit when it was breaking. Delta blues was way more exciting to me than the Pumpkins and that whiny voice. [Laughs.] I knew that one "rat in a cage" lyric, but that was the only Pumpkins I could recognize for the longest time. But, yeah, Billy would get really mad about that: "How can you not know 'Tonight, Tonight'?" [Laughs.]
AVC: But Zwan didn't even play Smashing Pumpkins songs, right? DP: No! But that's one of the reasons I initially liked the guy—he was so arrogant, it cracked me up. He would constantly bring up the fact that he sold 25 million records, or that his hit song was played at the Super Bowl or something. It just made me laugh. You know that character Alan Partridge, the one Steve Coogan played? Billy reminds me of Alan Partridge if he'd made a hit record. But after a while, the joke wears off.
and
AVC: Do you think reverting to metal was also a reaction against your experience in Zwan? DP: Yeah. Zwan really did put a sour taste in my mouth, as far as music goes. I don't want to talk too much shit about Billy, but… He really does know how to beat the sound and life out of music. I just wanted to do something that wasn't money-oriented or art-oriented...
Pajo was apparently sleeping with the producer's girlfriend behind his back and it caused a lot of drama, IIRC.
There was also an incident where someone got ahold of Corgan's phone and texted his girlfriend proof he'd been cheating on her, or some shit, I remember hearing that.
BC also alluded to "Sex acts in public between band members", so Paz gave someone or someone gave Paz a jack handy under a restaurant table, I imagine.
What I took out of this interview--on the current WPC--is that fatherhood has really matured him. Which, I sorta already felt. But I really like the Pumpkins. I am glad everyone liked the article like I did. It is the most indepth Zwan-y article in a while. WPC has stated after Machina II release (I mean, eventually...) he wants to do Zwan.
Side note: The most recent Pixies album was the best of their recent bunch. Paz is great live, too.
The new ATUM track, Avalanche, from the podcast yesterday, is the best SP track in years. I think ATUM is going to wind up being a pretty strong and memorable record.
And I second the endorsement of the new Pixies. It's a pretty good record and definitely the best they've been since reforming. Parts of it feel like Doolittle if you're willing to squint a bit.
The new ATUM track, Avalanche, from the podcast yesterday, is the best SP track in years. I think ATUM is going to wind up being a pretty strong and memorable record.
And I second the endorsement of the new Pixies. It's a pretty good record and definitely the best they've been since reforming. Parts of it feel like Doolittle if you're willing to squint a bit.
I don't listen to the podcast as I don't want the songs spoiled. Though, means I should go listen to the episodes of part 1. I have a sneaking suspicion that the 10 song bonus ep with my vinyl will be what I like the most.
Yes, new Pixies is great because it doesn't feel like they're trying to be old Pixies. Crazy Kim Deal didn't want to record new material, I think they all still got it (and that include Kim Deal).
I still think Indy Cindy is the Pixies' strongest post-reunion work. I find myself listening to it more than to the others. And I don't understand how seemingly everbody shat on it upon release...
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