The Smashing Pumpkins

[Piko]

Yeah, there's no reason to get rid of Jeff. They had three in Zwan. It worked, more or less. It could definitely work with pumpkins. Especially if James alternates from guitar and keys.

[seasonsinthesky]

Yeah, there's no reason to get rid of Jeff. They had three in Zwan. It worked, more or less. It could definitely work with pumpkins. Especially if James alternates from guitar and keys.

Agreed.

... But I assure all of you that if BC indeed toured with three total guitarists, he would ruin it, either by playing way too much SP2.0 bullshit that barely needs guitar at all under the ludicrous amounts of synth or by reducing his own guitar playing like when they'd do "The Beginning is the End is the Beginning." At the minimum, he'd never let "Bodies," "Jellybelly," or "Silverfuck" back through the gates, and certainly never play "White Spyder" or "Tales of a Scorched Earth" just because three guitarists would throw those songs so over the top – he will never willingly scream a whole show again unless the whole show is a massive "Heavy Metal Machine" jam. Even that is unlikely at this point.

[implanted_microchip]

Don't tell me I'll never get to see Bodies live

I'm going to live the rest of my life believing I'll one day see Bodies live

You can't rob me of my joy, @seasonsinthesky

[seasonsinthesky]

I commend you on your optimism, @kleiner352 , but why you'd let yourself get your hopes up is beyond me. The man is impossible. He has been since SD blew up.

[Shadaloo]

He hasn't done Bodies since 2008. It was pretty good, but he's long since lost the ability to really, really scream it. It's just too much for his voice nowadays. More of a matter of 'can't' than 'won't.



Almost 10 years again since. I wouldn't hope to be blown out of the water by a modern-day performance.

Silverfuck was a traditional closer though, and I have every belief he'll bring that one back if they reunite.

[implanted_microchip]

I see no reason Bodies couldn't be worked into an In Plainsong-style setting with softer vocals. Would it change the song? Probably a lot. But I think it'd be able to work beautifully as something more subdued, taking you off guard and gently washing over you when you're expecting it to punch you in the face. I'm thinking like the acoustic Bullet demo where he's completely soothing the entire song rather than the famous snarl of the single.

In general he pulls enough songs out of nowhere all the time and SP's setlists have been full of surprises, rarities, comebacks, oddities and first-time debuts for years now that I think unless he's openly said "I'm never playing that again" or it's from Gish, it's pretty pointless to think something has no shot at coming back someday. I wouldn't bet on Bodies, but I wouldn't bet against it, either, is all I'm saying. Did anyone think Crying Tree of Mercury would become a tour-long staple? I sure as hell never did, but I'll be damned if he didn't point right at me during his "and you and you and you" verse on it last summer.

Personally a lot of the fun with this band for me is the unpredictability of setlists. I can typically assume pretty well what most bands I love are going to bring out live, with maybe a couple surprises here and there. But if I go and look just at the last two Plainsong and the End Times tour sets, it's all over the place in eras, popularity and variety, and even when it's hardcore staples like Disarm, you might end up getting something like that weird version from the last Plainsong tour.

[Shadaloo]

I see no reason Bodies couldn't be worked into an In Plainsong-style setting with softer vocals. Would it change the song? Probably a lot. But I think it'd be able to work beautifully as something more subdued, taking you off guard and gently washing over you when you're expecting it to punch you in the face. I'm thinking like the acoustic Bullet demo where he's completely soothing the entire song rather than the famous snarl of the single.

Now...I respect your opinion, and you're absolutely right about stuff being pulled out of obscurity and reworked but...no. GOD no. Not that song. I'd rather it never be played again than to experience what you've suggested. No, no thank you.

That song is in Motorhead territory of "Play this shit loud or not at all". It's a song that - to me, at least - is meant to be blasted with the windows open, speeding down a desolate highway in the dead of night. It's MCIS' ultimate adolescent angry scream of "being in love sucks ass, nobody understands me, I wanna blow up the whole world". Reckless, furious and angry.

[implanted_microchip]

Now...I respect your opinion, and you're absolutely right about stuff being pulled out of obscurity and reworked but...no. GOD no. Not that song. I'd rather it never be played again than to experience what you've suggested. No, no thank you.

That song is in Motorhead territory of "Play this shit loud or not at all". It's a song that - to me, at least - is meant to be blasted with the windows open, speeding down a desolate highway in the dead of night. It's MCIS' ultimate adolescent angry scream of "being in love sucks ass, nobody understands me, I wanna blow up the whole world". Reckless, furious and angry.

It's genuinely my favorite SP song so I think I just am that desperate to see it that I'd take whatever I can get. I'm always open to reworkings and being surprised, even if something doesn't quite work and just reminds me of why the original is as good as it is.

I don't know, I just don't think it has to be him tearing his vocal chords out the way he does on the album. He seemed to be really, really intense and was doing just fine with the screaming in Tampa last year. Maybe I caught his voice on a good night with the right amount of rest the day before, but I just don't think it's a song in some impossible column of improbability. He seems to love digging around the back catalog, and if we get a reunion tour highlighting classic material, I wouldn't be shocked at all if it got brought back up from the ether.

[neorev]

@kleiner352 f#%king love Bodies!!! I always loved the heavier, darker side of the Pumpkins. Tales Of A Scorched Earth, The Aeroplane Flies High (Turns Left, Looks Right), Mouths Of Babes, X.Y.U. etc.

[implanted_microchip]

@kleiner352 f#%king love Bodies!!! I always loved the heavier, darker side of the Pumpkins. Tales Of A Scorched Earth, The Aeroplane Flies High (Turns Left, Looks Right), Mouths Of Babes, X.Y.U. etc.

Aeroplane is fucking incredible and one I've always wished I'd get to see someday. That moody Pumpkins sound with those low guitar tones are what made them click for me. Things like Pug from Adore play into that mood as well and is probably a big part of why that album was my initial favorite when I dived into their catalog (and later on Machina II, which is all sorts of dark, moody and foreboding; that Heavy Metal Machine alt version is something I've been wanting a whole album of ever since I first heard it).

Cool to see Bodies has the fanbase it has; I've always felt somewhat alone in my hardcore love of it, but when you've got hundreds upon hundreds of songs it makes sense that there's going to be a lot for people to choose from for favorites.

[Shadaloo]

I'm right there with you on Aeroplane. And trust me, nobody's anywhere fucking near alone in their love for the heavy Pumpkins takes. I think that accounts or accounted for a very large portion of the fanbase. They were one of those bands that could do anything at their peak.

The sudden cutoff transition from WBFTT - another of my favorite tracks - into Bodies's static opening into the shredding guitar wall is one of my all-time favorite moments in music.

It makes me want to...shit, I don't know; headbang, punch a hole in a wall, scream, mosh, drive off a cliff, all of the above, I don't know what. Those two songs together are supreme.

[implanted_microchip]

I really think the entire second disc for Mellon Collie is all-but flawless. Maybe it could stand to lose one song (though I'm not sure which), but, it's pretty close to perfection.

I'm still digesting the fact that I got to see Ruby live with Jimmy on drums ten feet away from me. Top 3 moments in concerts I've been to.

[neorev]

I fucking adore Adore
Loved it from the first moment I pressed play on release day. I got into the Pumpkins back when I first saw the premiere of the Cherub Rock video on MTV. Rocket would be the track that really did it for me. I remember having Siamese Dream on cassette (old school!). I followed them from that moment on. Mellon Collie and Adore are might top favorite albums from them. I just include The Aeroplane Flies High collection into the whole Mellon Collie era of greatness.

I do own all of the reissue box sets and it is killing me that they have not released the Machina reissue. Please Billy, do not fucking just scrap it like you like to do. I rather have the Machina box set than this early/pre-Pumpkins demo stuff he's talking about releasing. Once I have a Machina reissue, I can feel complete and not worry about other box sets.

Sadly, post original Pumpkins releases haven't been their strongest. There's probably an amazing album worth of tracks if you took the best songs from the post original line up releases. I think the last truly great song Billy and co. did was Superchrist. Closest they got to epic heavy Pumpkins. Zeitgeist had moments ruined by bad production. I didn't really connect with Oceania even though it's probably their strongest post original line up album as a whole. I liked Astral Planes and The Fellowship from Teargardens, but still not their greatest. From Monuments To An Elegy, I only liked Tiberius. I was so hoping to hear Jimmy on the drums for that one when I saw them with Manson... no luck.

I just want passionate Billy vocals back. I feel lately his vocals sound too lackadaisical or flimsy or something. I don't feel the emotion he once had. He did sound awesome live on the Manson co-tour, so I don't get it. He needs to bring that energy into the studio. Seeing them live recently actually made me fall in love with United States. It was blistering live.

[seasonsinthesky]

I wish Adore was all the electronic stuff from the period. I love that shit.

Nothing wrong with the acoustic/ballad side, it's just better suited to a separate release.

[frankie teardrop]

adore was exactly the record i wanted from them in 1998. i was a bit over the band after all the drama surrounding mellon collie and very sick of hearing them on the radio, even though they were my favorite band at the time. i almost skipped adore but i was drawn to the cover. i had just discovered the cure and was diving head-first into goth music, so the idea of a darkwave influenced electronic record mixed with subtle, haunting ballads was PERFECT. it remains my favorite and a completely underrated masterpiece of a record.

as for reissuing, i am just as interested in the machina reissue as i am the early pumpkins stuff. some of the early pumpkins songs (snap, jennifer ever, there it goes) are among my favorite pumpkins songs, because you know, goth.

[neorev]

I wish Adore was all the electronic stuff from the period. I love that shit.

Nothing wrong with the acoustic/ballad side, it's just better suited to a separate release.

Adore is great, but I do agree they had some amazing electronic tracks from this era... Waiting, Blissed And Gone, Do You Close Your Eyes (not the acoustic one), Saturnine, The Beginning Is The End Is The Beginning, Indecision, Eye.

I actually made my own more electronic version of Adore by replacing a few tracks, such as Once Upon A Time, The Tale Of Dusty and Pistol Pete, and Annie Dog. I added Waiting, Blissed And Gone, Eye, and Saturnine to make the album 17 tracks and making the last track 17 make sense.

This is a great behind the scenes making of Adore documentary broken up into 3 parts...

[implanted_microchip]

Adore as a double album with the first half all gothy electronic and the second an acoustic, somber affair is my dream that makes me glad playlists are things nowadays.

Seriously, try putting together a mix that opens with Eye into Ava Adore -- the flow is just unbelievably perfect between the two. I always wanted a whole album that sounded like The Beginning ...

Also There It Goes is so incredibly good. Always amazed at the golden material this guy has just laying on shelves in closets, basically.

[Shadaloo]

I confess, I was one of those kids who turned on Adore and wondered where the fuck all the electric guitars went. I think it sat barely played for the first year after I picked it up.

Of course, time changes everybody, and it was only a matter of it until the record clicked for me. It wasn't all at once; it came slowly, song by song. It's not something I can just throw on any day of the week though because of just how powerful a record it is. Looking back now, it was absolutely one of the worst examples ever of a band getting shat on undeservedly and abandoned by their fanbase....but I think TEITBITE off the Batman & Robin soundtrack had conditioned people to expect more hard-hitting rock.

That said, I'd still cut a bitch to get my Machina reissue. Dying here.

[neorev]

@kleiner352

As awesome as Eye followed by Ava Adore does sound, I do love how To Sheila has a sly little reference to Mellon Collie with the opening lyrics "Twilight fades..." referencing the closing Twilight To Starlight half of Mellon Collie. Find it to be a nice segue. So my version would have to open with To Sheila into Eye into Ava Adore.

[neorev]

Can I also say one other thing?

...I didn't really like the changes Billy made with Eye on the Adore reissue. I really prefer the original mix and master. I feel the instruments and vocals sit more nicely. Something feels off with the reissue version, which is pretty sad. I know people had similar complaints with some of the other non-album release tracks on earlier reissues like the different vocal take on Glynis.

[r_z]

So what would your configuration of the tracklist look like? you guys named a lot of song titles I never even heard about...

[neorev]

So what would your configuration of the tracklist look like? you guys named a lot of song titles I never even heard about...

You should check out the Rarities & B-Sides release... pretty much collects every single release with b-sides from Gish to Adore along with Judas O and additional material in one 114 track package. Bought the lossless release from Qobuz.com

Also, the reissue box sets for Gish (2CDs/DVD), Siamese Dream (2CDs/DVD), Pisces Iscariot (2CDs/1 cassette/DVD), Mellon Collie & The Infinite Sadness (5CDs/DVD), The Aeroplane Flies High (6CDs/DVD), and Adore (6CDs/DVD are frigging awesome! Lots of material.

It's amazing to think Mellon Collie and Aeroplane Flies High are all from the same era. The amount of material from this period is staggering and there's still plenty that hasn't been released. Plus there's many demo bootlegs out there, such as the Gravity Demos leading up to Mellon Collie and the Adore session demos. When they began the reissues, the label rep said the Pumpkins material vault was larger than The Beatles.

I will have to do some thinking and make a proper Adore Electronic tracklisting.

[seasonsinthesky]

So what would your configuration of the tracklist look like? you guys named a lot of song titles I never even heard about...

It's rough to put together a tracklist that flows well. Even the electronic stuff is so eclectic that it's tough. All I know for sure is it needs "Saturnine," "Because You Are," "Eye," and the songs from "The End is the Beginning..." added, and the acoustic stuff moved off.

There are some 'in-betweeners' – I'd keep "Tear," "The Tale of..." and "Shame" on the electronic disc.

[Shadaloo]

Can I also say one other thing?

...I didn't really like the changes Billy made with Eye on the Adore reissue. I really prefer the original mix and master. I feel the instruments and vocals sit more nicely. Something feels off with the reissue version, which is pretty sad. I know people had similar complaints with some of the other non-album release tracks on earlier reissues like the different vocal take on Glynis.

I hate hate HATE the fact that he added a drum machine to "The Ethers Tragic." The original is far and away better, just simple, mournful strings. That's a track where I could actually picture a soft version of TEITBITE sung over it.

[implanted_microchip]

So what would your configuration of the tracklist look like? you guys named a lot of song titles I never even heard about...

Because of all the talk here I've been thinking a whole lot about Adore as a double album. This isn't perfect by any means but I've been toying around with it a bit and this is feeling pretty good to me lately after a couple listens and tweaks here and there (the biggest issue is the variance in production on some material):

Disc 1

Eye
Ava Adore
Pug
Appels + Oranjes
Saturnine
Because You Are
Tear
Crestfallen
Blissed & Gone
The Beginning Is the End Is the Beginning

Disc 2:

To Sheila
Winterlong
Annie Dog
Waiting
Let Me Give the World To You (Rick Rubin Version)
Daphne Descends
Once Upon a Time
Shame
Behold! The Night Mare
For Martha
Blank Page
Soot & Stars
17

I know that Billy's said Let Me Give the World To You was meant as the ending to the album, but I felt like going for the configuration I was shooting for, it would've felt abrupt and out of place. I also love Soot & Stars lots and feel it serves well as an overall closer to the album and its general moods and sounds. A couple songs got dropped either because I don't like them as much or because I couldn't find a way to fit them in to offer a proper flow without it feeling forced, as if they were there out of obligation.

Also, as far as songs never even heard of, yeah, Billy's collection of B-sides and unreleased tracks is just fucking nuts. I don't think I'm a fan of any artist with as wide and vast a catalog of non-album material as Billy Corgan, all things considered, and so much of it is genuinely high-quality as well, so it's even stranger. He's been prolific his whole life and I am sure that when I'm old and he's been gone for a while I'll still be getting sold things I've never heard by labels cashing in on the legacy.

I'd be really interested in seeing some other people's stabs at this. I always dig a good alternate tracklist.

[neorev]

Hey guys, if you are an SP fan this is a great read. It's an album by album look behind the scenes with the band and the different producers involved discussing each album and giving their incite to what went on while recording...

Smashing Pumpkins: A studio history with Billy Corgan, Flood, Jimmy Chamberlin, Butch Vig, Alan Moulder, and Tommy Lee
http://tapeop.com/interviews/115/sma...tudio-history/

[fillow]

I'm currently deep into listening to Adore tour soundboard live recordings. For some reason that's a fucking ton of them!

There are three particular songs that sound fucking awesome with 1998 lineup:

Pug


Daphne


Tear (especially slow break at 4:30)


Watching Kenny Aronoff always irritates me though.
Many other songs on that tour unfortunately have a lot of extra unnecessary (IMO) percussion, or seriously lacking in Billy's vocal delivery. (BWBW is guilty on both accounts)

[neorev]

@fillow

There's this one fucking epic rendition of Blank Page that almost brought tears to my eyes. I gotta find it again. They turned it into this huge opus.

[seasonsinthesky]

I love how "Tear" blew up on that tour. It's a god damn shame one of those wasn't on the live disc of the Adore box instead of the lackluster acoustic version. Thankfully, it's on the DVD.

Watching Kenny Aronoff always irritates me though.

I know his sunglasses and spandex are stupid, but my fuck that man is a solid bloody drummer. Not Jimmy, no, but a really excellent step-in for the tour. His lock with Billy and his sense of dynamics were perfect for that tour. The way he energized "1979" was very different from JC but absolutely in the exact spirit and joy needed. I certainly find him a better fit than Matt Walker, who was definitely excellent as well but seemed to get lost trying to find what was appropriate for "Ruby" and others on the post-JC MCIS dates.

[Failure]

@fillow

There's this one fucking epic rendition of Blank Page that almost brought tears to my eyes. I gotta find it again. They turned it into this huge opus.

Gotta be this one, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIe8_12K9Nk


Man, there are some gems during this era. Their performances on the Serginho Groisman Show and MuchMusic have been in rotation for years.