The Smashing Pumpkins

[newmodel87]

Well, moving on without James and Darcy is exactly what he did after they broke up, to mixed results. But here we go about in circles. I'd just posit that the fact that he decided to end the use of the name rather than moving on alone at the time as all that's required - to me at least -as evidence that he himself considered it a group effort at the time to a significant degree. That's good enough for me. As to their contributions on Machina: on MI D'Arcy did some work in there but only a few tracks, and James covered bass for the rest. MII was Melissa, who's a more than capable bassist. So you kind of got your wish halfway?

I actually wonder from time to time, had shit not gone down on the MCIS tour the way it did, what kind of work the band would have put out in 1998, whether it would have been quite as somber as Adore turned out to be. '97's The End Is The Beginning Is The End has always been one of my favorite tracks, and I kinda wish things had gone more along those lines. Surely Bill would still have had divorce and losing his mom to contend with and emote over, but to have written TEITBITE even after all that...makes me wonder if Adore couldn't have turned out slightly more of a rocker - not that I'm complaining much.

As for touring without the rest of the band...nah. A lot of people now are used to looking at the group these days as Corgan and hired guns but that just wasn't the prevailing mood at the time, not at all. People lost their shit with happy when Jimmy came back; the public saw that band as a unit, and Corgan was already known for being something of an egomaniac. I don't think it would have gone over well. The press, who he had an already acrimonious relationship with, would have spun it as the ultimate "I am the band" angle to the Nth degree. I think he made the right choice by having one last big concert and bowing out.

I like James' songs, but I don't dispute their placement either, really. IMO he couldn't really sing worth a damn until Adore's Summer, and his lyrics tend towards the overly religious. I do like them as songs, though. I just wouldn't take anything of PI or TAFH and put it on SD or MCIS or vice versa - but I wouldn't move Take Me Down or Farewell (a collaboration with Bill) from their spots for the world. Always thought the mood of TMD segued nicely into the nighttime side of MCIS, and Farewell is a great album closer. The only song I've really got a problem with on the whole album is Tales Of A Scorched Earth. Should have swapped that with Cherry or something.

Certainly I wouldn't have a problem if newer Smashing Pumpkins' albums were released under a different name. I don't care much for what I've heard recently but admit I haven't given the new ones a lot of listens. And you're right we can discuss this forever, but I really didn't expect anything from Billy when he resurrected The Smashing Pumpkins. But Zeitgeist had some good songs I thought, like Doomsday Clock. Comebacks, band reunions, comeback albums (etc.) are usually not very good at all. When years pass, people change and momentum is usually lost. I think it's pretty rare for a band, at least the ones I listen to, to release a 'classic' album ten years after their debut. I would have preferred that with Machina, Billy would have found new musicians and maybe delayed the album release somewhat while attempting to keep whatever ambitions and fire going that he was able to salvage, putting the band turmoil behind him.

The End Is the Beginning Is the End is also a favourite of mine and was when it came out. I think Eye is brilliant and should've been on Adore since it fits quite nicely. The darker, electronic side to the band has always been more excting to me. I suppose I can't complain too much because Adore, my favourite of theirs, was released after all. I only wonder how things could have been. I think Billy said that initially the album was going to be very acoustic and mellow, more so than what it turned out to be but leading up to the album you wouldn't have thought so.

I tend to really enjoy Billy's banter with the media. He always has something to say and as a fan, I've never once been offended. He's a prowrestling fan and I'm certain he knows what he's doing when when handling the media. But I'm not suggesting he's playing a full heel. I think he's outspoken because he knows that by voicing his 'unpopular' opinions, it will generate discussion and he will stay somewhat relevant even if he's seen in a negative light.

[frankie teardrop]

MII was Melissa, who's a more than capable bassist. So you kind of got your wish halfway?

just a small note on this- MADM didn't play on machina II, either. her only recorded contribution with the band was the cover of 'rock on' featured on rotten apples/judas o. for some reason the wiki entry on machina II is incorrect, but otherwise, she didn't play on the record. i believe it was mostly billy, maybe some james.

these days, i grab for machina II more than ever...

[Shadaloo]

just a small note on this- MADM didn't play on machina II, either. her only recorded contribution with the band was the cover of 'rock on' featured on rotten apples/judas o. for some reason the wiki entry on machina II is incorrect, but otherwise, she didn't play on the record. i believe it was mostly billy, maybe some james.

these days, i grab for machina II more than ever...

Counter-nitpick: Rock On was culled from one of the Machina II EPs (number 2), so assuming that's absolutely true, she technically did, if just for a little. I remember hearing that she'd done work on a few tracks though, but that was years ago and my memory may be failing me. I'm sure she was in the studio with them for a brief time while they finished the work on MII off, at least. At the very least, combination of her, Billy, and James. D'arcy was long gone by then.

Certainly I wouldn't have a problem if newer Smashing Pumpkins' albums were released under a different name. I don't care much for what I've heard recently but admit I haven't given the new ones a lot of listens. And you're right we can discuss this forever, but I really didn't expect anything from Billy when he resurrected The Smashing Pumpkins. But Zeitgeist had some good songs I thought, like Doomsday Clock. Comebacks, band reunions, comeback albums (etc.) are usually not very good at all. When years pass, people change and momentum is usually lost. I think it's pretty rare for a band, at least the ones I listen to, to release a 'classic' album ten years after their debut. I would have preferred that with Machina, Billy would have found new musicians and maybe delayed the album release somewhat while attempting to keep whatever ambitions and fire going that he was able to salvage, putting the band turmoil behind him.

I think what especially hurts in SP's case is that - in my armchair psychologist attempt at brief analysis - in the heyday the band was so focused on capturing the feelings and emotions concerned with what it meant to be young - Bill really had a way of capturing the excitement of youth in a bottle. Adore was the sound of maturing, dealing with loss and grief, and moving on. And Machina had a lot of thematic allusions to death - the death of a band, the death of rock's prominence in the mainstream, the death of the June character, hell - probably even the death of Billy's vision. It's hard to go back when you've kind of explored, thematically, a whole lifetime.

Maybe Bill did lose the fire to some extent; I think Zeitgeist and the 2007 shows, for all their flaws, were the last time the band showed any kind of the edge which I'd argue played a large part in their popularity (FWIW I think ZG was just marred by terrible production choices, and I like a fair bit of that album). I know they're long past being angry young men, but it feels like a big missing piece to no longer see anything like XYU, Zwan's Spilled Milk, etc. showing up on albums. Bill can still write nice things on acoustic, but it sucks to leave the leaner, meaner side of SP behind.

[neorev]

The funny thing is Billy seems so angry at the state of rock music and the industry and fair weather fans, you'd think he'd have some angry songs left in him about it. Give us your "Fuck You" album.

[implanted_microchip]

So Saturnine sounds fucking great live this tour

[seasonsinthesky]

Counter-nitpick: Rock On was culled from one of the Machina II EPs (number 2), so assuming that's absolutely true, she technically did, if just for a little. I remember hearing that she'd done work on a few tracks though, but that was years ago and my memory may be failing me. I'm sure she was in the studio with them for a brief time while they finished the work on MII off, at least. At the very least, combination of her, Billy, and James. D'arcy was long gone by then.

Nah dude, RO was recorded in a soundcheck on the Machina tour. If your copy of M2 includes it, it's been fucked with.

Are you thinking of Soul Power?

[Shadaloo]

Nah dude, RO was recorded in a soundcheck on the Machina tour. If your copy of M2 includes it, it's been fucked with.

Are you thinking of Soul Power?

*Finger snap*

You're absolutely right. I was. My bad, completely; I take that back. This is largely because they are two covers I absolutely loathe and never, ever listen to.

[frankie teardrop]

yeah, both are pretty rough... and i generally love their covers. 'rock on' was actually pretty great in a live setting, with more of james' phaser gun work in the mix. the recorded version is WAY too nasaly, imo.

while we're nitpicking, it's funny thing about the "no drugs" policy they took with jimmy. there's been countless confessions (literally under BC's confessions blogs and livejournals) about the band's overall drug use, including being collectively on mdma during countless shows during MCIS and adore. also, hanging out with manson in 1997 wasn't likely the soberist of times. that said (as my own devil's advocate), there's a difference between recreational use and dangerous addiction that ends up in overdoses and death.

[Space Suicide]

The band died with Machina to me. But I won't lie, I really really enjoy Zeitgeist. Everything else after, not that much. Oceania is alright but doesn't hold a candle to previous albums, hell even Zeitgeist. I loved this video when it came out, sue me.

[fillow]

Wh... what? Loathe Soul Power?? It's one of the best tracks on the album! And certainly their best cover.

[seasonsinthesky]

I don't dig RO or Soul Power either.

Also, it bugs me that the EPs are often ordered first. Yes, they are CR01 etc., but production catalogs don't ever go in order (or at least release order). Machina II is the 12” set with Glass through Atom Bomb. That's it. The album. The EPs are bonus tracks.

[implanted_microchip]

Fantastic recording of Spaniards. This could end up being a strong favorite of mine; I really hope this does get released on the next album. I'm still wishing Dream Machine had a proper studio cut.

[valiantsteed]

It bugs me that the EPs are often ordered first. Yes, they are CR01 etc., but production catalogs don't ever go in order (or at least release order). Machina II is the 12” set with Glass through Atom Bomb. That's it. The album. The EPs are bonus tracks.

Agreed, it just sucks that some of the best songs, at least for me, are mostly on the bonus tracks (Saturnine, Slow Dawn, Speed Kills, Lucky 13, Vanity), so thus in a playlist order I'd like them to come up first, as opposed to sticking them behind the album itself which would likely make more sense. Doubtful that is the reason for it being done, but that's why I've never fixed it on my end.

Hopefully one day we will get that illusive one fully formed double album track list where everything is seemlessly cut together.

Wh... what? Loathe Soul Power?? It's one of the best tracks on the album! And certainly their best cover.

That is a BOLD statement. Do you know how many covers SP have actually done over the years?

I'm partial to the DM cover, Thin Lizzy's 'Dancing in the Moonlight', and the HMM AOL studio version that had this kick ass medley featuring Jefferson's White Rabbit ( )


But it's definitely a conversation that can span many years and many, many songs/versions.

[Shadaloo]

Was always quite partial to this one:



And no joke, Spaniards is fucking fantastic. Might be the best song Bill's done in ages.

[seasonsinthesky]

HMM AOL studio version that had this kick ass medley featuring Jefferson's White Rabbit

That whole set NEEDS to be officially released in high quality. Definitive version of that song, Superchrist, Tarantula... and if it were backed up with the small set from Madrid 6/6/2007 that was on MySpace with definitive Bleeding the Orchid and Starz...

not drooling at that

[perceptionnexus]

Anyone know where that version of Glass and The Ghost Children from the leaks came from? It's the acoustic version that's about 5:43. I love it, much more so than the album version.

[Shadaloo]

Prevailing wisdom is "don't ask" as far as I'm concerned. C&D letters really have been thrown about as a result of this stuff getting out. The less I know, the happier I am; after all, who knows what else'll show up if nobody pries too hard?

I'll say this much, the legal pressure actually seems surprising, what with a history of tons of demos and outtakes just flowing out of the woodwork for this band over the years. What with Billy's open taping policy I'd always assumed he never cared if demos got out.

On an unrelated note, because I need to find flac versions of said older stuff out there, anybody know if Zomb is actually accepting new members? I never get a verification mail.

[TheyCallMeDrug]

just looked at a setlist and was happy to see stumbleine on every recent show. that was always a heartbreaker to me.

[perceptionnexus]

Prevailing wisdom is "don't ask" as far as I'm concerned. C&D letters really have been thrown about as a result of this stuff getting out. The less I know, the happier I am; after all, who knows what else'll show up if nobody pries too hard?

I'll say this much, the legal pressure actually seems surprising, what with a history of tons of demos and outtakes just flowing out of the woodwork for this band over the years. What with Billy's open taping policy I'd always assumed he never cared if demos got out.

On an unrelated note, because I need to find flac versions of said older stuff out there, anybody know if Zomb is actually accepting new members? I never get a verification mail.

I don't care about the facts surrounding the leak, just the facts surrounding the song. At any rate, a PM is appreciated if anyone knows.

[Shadaloo]

Well, no great mystery there. Billy composes the majority of his songs on acoustic guitar or piano, and tries a few directions with them, sometimes with the full band, before deciding what works best. The Machina sessions by all evidence are rife with multiple versions of songs and full band demos, and there's guaranteed to be tons of shit in Billy's vault we've never heard for virtually every song. He tweaks his recordings like there's no tomorrow. I recall hearing that he's sufficiently perfectionist that he'll chop up syllables and blend them together for vocal takes if he feels that's what works best.

If I had to hazard a guess I'd say it probably came from the same period as the version of Blue Skies Bring Tears off the FAEOMM tape - the Arising! version, as it's known - which had more of a 'band-in-studio' feel, recorded before the album got all overproduced.

Edit: A bit more context from SPFC.

[Shadaloo]

Recent VIP Q&A has him say that he thought about putting out Chicago Kid this year, and also refers to the whole reissue release process in his mind as a stalled assembly line, and he won't release them out of sequence. He says currently they "don't have a plan."

Sweet fucking christ this is depressing.

[Shadaloo]

I'm on a bus to Toronto for tonight's show! Aw yeah

[implanted_microchip]

I'm on a bus to Toronto for tonight's show! Aw yeah

Have fun! I'll be missing this tour and it seems unbelievable. Would love to hear about it afterward.

Also I just now saw that post about the reissues. It's really disappointing but it's also got to be incredibly frustrating for him and I'm glad we at least get realistic updates (as opposed to a certain Fragile reissue we've heard so much about).

[GulDukat]

Boston's show was amazing. Packed house and Billy was in great spirits.

[Disassociative]

Well it seems like D'arcy is doing better. Allegedly I mean the lack of sources is a bit strange but it's an odd thing to talk out of your ass about

Smashing Pumpkins’ D’arcy Wretzky Is Clean & Playing Bass Again


Original Smashing Pumpkins bassist D’arcy Wretzky’s boyfriend Patrick recently posted the first updates on D’arcy in several years on a Facebook Smashing Pumpkins group. The news is good: D’arcy is clean, healthy, and playing music again.

“I would like to say that D’arcy is not on drugs. As her boyfriend of four years I would not be with someone who is on drugs. She is healthy, mentally and physically. Last night when I came home from work she was with several other musicians who were over and she was playing bass and having a great time with it, after she was done playing we all ate sushi and had a great time. She was smiling all night, and that’s great to see.”
He also remembered her listening to The Smashing Pumpkins for the first time in over a decade in 2012 when he first met her,


“I like this group and the dedication to the band, I shouldn’t take the comments personally but it’s hard not too when they are so mean, untrue, and about your significant other. We live in an age of if its on Wikipedia or TMZ reports it, we are all led to believe it’s true. For example when she went to jail over her horses running free she took the hit for her ex boyfriend who was responsible for the horses and living at the farm when she moved. She did not want this mans child to watch his father go to jail. Is she perfect? Of course not, none of us are. Since I have met her she has come a long way. One wintery night in 2012 we listened to SP all night and drove around in a snow storm singing along and having a good time (and doing doughnuts in the snow) it had been over 10 years since she had listened to her bands music. When I met her she couldn’t even bear to listen to the radio. She has been working on herself and continues to do so. I can tell you that she is one of the most unselfish, empathetic, caring, giving, and sensitive, people I have ever met. Is she addicted? yes, addicted to fashion, science fiction, home renovation projects, Star Wars books, and our animals. She has been taken advantage of financially over the years, and used as a ladder for social climbers.”


Original Smashing Pumpkins members Billy Corgan, James Iha, and Jimmy Chamberlin reunited for performances in Los Angeles last month for the first time in 16 years. D’arcy Wretzky left the Pumpkins and the music industry in 1999.

http://www.alternativenation.net/sma...ng-bass-again/

[Uraki14]

I really hope this is true. I hated to see her go down the path that she did. If she is doing well that makes me all the happier to hear.

[pinata89]

While I wish an original lineup would happen again, I don't see Billy getting rid of Jeff. They seem to have a unique chemistry like he ans Jimmy do.

I guess having Jimmy back we should be thankful for. For me, it has always been BC/JC anyways that makes the band.


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[Piko]

You don't think James, Jeff, and Billy could all work together? Zwan pulled it off. Then again, we all know how that ended up... Considering Iha's style and tendency for effects and so on. It possibly wouldn't interfere with what Billy and Jeff have. I'm just saying it's possible.

[neorev]

I could see Billy, Jeff, and James together. Wasn't the third guitarist idea thrown around during the original line up days? I don't see it being an issue.

[Shadaloo]

Good show tonight. Bill was in a really great mood, all smiles.

On Malibu: " This was from Celebrity Skin, which I sort of wrote? I was on a lot of peyote at the time. I think I remember waking up next to a lumberjack?"

*looks at Jimmy, who shrugs*

Spaniards is very probably the best track he's done in a decade I think. That's not saying much as far as I'm concerned but it feels honest, I guess, in a way that was sorely lacking on MTAE. Freaking glad I decided to go.