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  1. #2131
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    My man-crush on Glenn Greenwald only grows stronger...
    The Puritanical Glee Over the Ashley Madison Hack

    This is REALLY good.
    Last edited by DigitalChaos; 08-20-2015 at 01:34 PM.

  2. #2132
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    My man-crush on Glenn Greenwald only grows stronger...
    The Puritanical Glee Over the Ashley Madison Hack

    This is REALLY good.
    He makes some fair points. Should update the article with the example of Josh Duggar.

  3. #2133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dra508 View Post
    He makes some fair points. Should update the article with the example of Josh Duggar.
    I felt that this line catches the Duggar situation: "Except in the most unusual cases – such as a politician hypocritically launching morality crusades against others – it’s most definitely not any of your business."

  4. #2134
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    Using a site like Ashley Madison is lame... and if you got caught cheating on your SO because of a database hack, oh well for you. It's true that we're entitled to our private lives, and we'd like to think that our personal lives will never be selectively invaded and uploaded for public scrutiny, but it's happened before and it'll happen again. In this case, the group that got hacked is really not going to win much sympathy in general anyway.

    The issue of puritanical indulgence in the shaming here is a little bit of a stretch. You don't have to be a sexual prude to say "fuck a site like Ashley Madison, and fuck the people who use it." The people whose lives have been "irreparably damaged" by this leak can take some small comfort in the fact that they'll be part of a huge (and successful) class action lawsuit against Ashley Madison.

    One clearly fantastic thing to come out of the hack is the exposure of even deeper hypocrisy of Josh Duggar, who is someone that deserves all the shaming that can be thrown his way.

  5. #2135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    You don't have to be a sexual prude to say "fuck a site like Ashley Madison, and fuck the people who use it."
    That's a bit different than supporting the efforts to out everyone in the dump. People are being egged on as if they were goddamned heroes for doing that. It's fucked up. It's also fucked up say "fuck people who use it" when there is no way you could understand everyone who uses it or why. The single gay guy who could face death in Saudi Arabia for using it is just one example. Fuck him too?

  6. #2136
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    My man-crush on Glenn Greenwald only grows stronger...
    The Puritanical Glee Over the Ashley Madison Hack

    This is REALLY good.
    All of this is a BIG lesson that people play WAY too fast and loose with online personal info, as if the Internet is some sacred secret secure place. Also, I am pretty sure that those military email addresses are supposed to be used for military business, only. Lots of slap-downs are going to come from this re how you CAN'T trust the Internet.

    But, spouses cheating in a shitty or sexless or whatever marriage ain't new; it's an ancient phenomenon. People who use a web site (and pay) to do it and use their REAL info are just desperately stupid.

    Josh Duggar either has the IQ of a Chihuahua or he was hoping to get caught.
    Last edited by Cat Mom; 08-20-2015 at 11:07 PM.

  7. #2137
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    It's just a dating site, folks. Not everybody there is trying to cheat on their spouse. I'd actually wager that millions of the addresses and profiles exposed in this hack belonged to people doing nothing "wrong" aside from wanting to have sex with strangers. Which, if we're honest, almost everybody wants from time to time. So why do these ones deserve to have their privacy compromised en masse?

    What if it was OKCupid that was hacked? Or PlentyOfFish, Lavalife, or any countless dozens of similar large dating sites? Lots of cheaters and scumbags and idiots on those, too, hiding behind anonymity. I guess because their marketing departments don't deliberately associate those users with "discrete affairs", there would be more of an outcry against the hackers — instead of this hypocritical gloating over the worst breach of private security since the Sony leaks last year. Except instead of exposing corporate espionage, or racist CEO email chains, the only thing remotely relevant about these millions of people's names and credit cards and other personal data was their desire for sex.
    Last edited by botley; 08-20-2015 at 10:32 PM.

  8. #2138
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    Well but even when we shop online, our data can be compromised and we can be exposed to identity theft, etc. What were these dingdongs thinking, using Military email addresses (and real data) on a "dating" site?

    I never said anyone "deserved" it. Hackers suck.

    Remember this??? Yeah, they most certainly have Gs data AND MINE, TOO.
    Last edited by Cat Mom; 08-20-2015 at 11:15 PM.

  9. #2139
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Well but even when we shop online, our data can be compromised and we can be exposed to identity theft, etc.
    True, but no one is going to end your career for buying crap on Amazon (unless you're stealing it), which is a key difference here. People will lose their jobs and possibly their families over this leak, I'm sure of it. "But they were cheaters anyway" does not satisfactorily cover the depth of the public shaming associated with this breach, that's Greenwald's point.

    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    I never said anyone "deserved" it.
    No, but that has been the overriding narrative in media coverage and mainstream public discourse around this story. Even Jinsai was implying that "a site like" AM (presumably he means one that allows you to pursue sex anonymously... like Tinder or Grindr or any other ones I already mentioned, up to and including messageboards that look exactly like this one) is entirely full of shitbirds and that's plainly not the case. No more so than other dating sites, anyhow. I am aware that AM cultivated a public image with their branding that seemingly promotes marital infidelity — but that is a separate issue from the personal conduct and rights of their customers.
    Last edited by botley; 08-20-2015 at 11:44 PM.

  10. #2140
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Well but even when we shop online, our data can be comprimised and we can be exposed to identity theft if that site is hacked, etc. What were these dingdongs thinking, using Military email addresses on a "dating" site?
    So, I mentioned OpSec observations on this hack a page back (personal email vs anonymous, credit card vs gift card). I'm continuing to keep tabs on that topic. Another failing is the fact that AM kept IP address logs for 5 years. So, the AP managed to find govt workers who used AM even though they used anonymous emails. All you have to do is match the logged IP address against ARIN (IP address registry, roughly) and look for gov/mil ownership.


    Two Assistant US Attorney, IT Admin in Executive Office of President, govt hacker at DHS, DHS employee who worked on counterterrorism response team, etc

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/06595...line-wake-hack




    As for the OPM hack... fuuuuck. I'm pissed that never got much media attention. It's going to be hard for something bigger to happen (even though it seems there is always something bigger). The forms (SF86??) that contained deep background check info such as fidelity, psychological issues, drug use, etc... That's so incredibly damaging. The only saving grace is that whoever stole it hasn't leaked it (yet). At least in terms of public shaming... much worse things can be done with that info depending on who has it.

  11. #2141
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    Quote Originally Posted by botley View Post
    People will lose their jobs and possibly their families over this leak, I'm sure of it.
    And that's the mild end of it. I'm all but certain that there will be multiple suicides. There is a damn good chance people will experience harsh punishment (depending on where they live) that could go as far as death. Whether we hear about it is another story.

    When I watch people talk about automating the process of outing people to their families (based on other social media data) I feel like we are in some fucked up dystopia.
    down in the park where the machmen meet the machines and play kill by numbers


    As for the idea that certain individuals are less deserving of privacy than others (especially based on the opinion of a moral majority)... that is such an extremely dangerous idea. To allow that to happen will create huge amounts of inequality that will hurt minorities the most. The right to privacy ties in parallel with the right to free speech.

  12. #2142
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    Also
    Ashley Madison Hackers Release an Even Bigger Batch of Data

    Last dump was 10gb, new one is an extra 20GB. Seems to be primarily internal company stuff, 13GB of which is the CEO's email. Looks like the CEO's email archive corrupted though (derp)... so reporting on that is going to be delayed until it gets sorted out somehow.

    There was already a good amount of internal docs included in the first leak. Some of it was prophetic. There was an internal survey that included a "In what area would you hate to see something go wrong" Some of the responses included:

    "There's a lack of security awareness across the organization."
    "Security. I would hate to see our systems hacked and/or the leak of personal information."
    "Data exfiltration, confidentiality of the data. An insider data breach would be very harmful. Have we done good enough a job vetting everyone, are we on top of it."



    I don't know if this is of interest here. I'm just pretty involved in it (as with most security stories) so I am sharing.

  13. #2143
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    And that's the mild end of it.
    Military personnel are facing court-marshall.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/m...an-infidelity/
    Last edited by Cat Mom; 08-21-2015 at 12:52 AM.

  14. #2144
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Military personnel are facing court-marshall.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/m...an-infidelity/
    At least these people get an actual trial (not that they are immune from the public shaming "trial" where everyone is automatically guilty). The existence of an account means very little. A credit card being used? Ok, that means it was very likely you... but does it mean you actually cheated? No. Not in a court. You need more evidence.

    At least, I hope the court marshall process works with the same level of evidence requirement that normal courts need.


    At the same time, how unfair is this on a holistic level? Military dumps all your info = "sucks for the employees!" But then the employee's info gets dumped from a different private location and they are the ones getting fucked again. There needs to be a hell of a lot more liability on the entities responsible for keeping information safe. Though, I suppose this creates some extremely interesting legal questions when the leaked data also happens to demonstrate a crime. Like, can a criminal sue someone for the very negligence that outed them as a criminal?

  15. #2145
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    Well, in the very least, the users are possibly facing punishment for using government resources (computer, IP).

  16. #2146
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    Quote Originally Posted by botley View Post
    Even Jinsai was implying that "a site like" AM (presumably he means one that allows you to pursue sex anonymously... like Tinder or Grindr or any other ones I already mentioned, up to and including messageboards that look exactly like this one) is entirely full of shitbirds and that's plainly not the case.
    I saw an interview with the founder of Ashley Madison, and he seemed pretty clear that the unique purpose of the service was to facilitate infidelity. I'm well aware that married people use sites/apps like Tinder, but it's different if the site is directly making that the point of their service. I'm not rallying with pitchforks, but to say that there isn't any real difference between Ashley Madison and OK Cupid is odd. AM's slogan is/was "Life is short, have an affair."

    Still, the biggest issue for me is the way Ashley Madison actually stored and collected user information. Part of their whole sales pitch was that they promised to scrub all the data away after the transaction was complete... instead they didn't erase anything, collected it all into this (now leaked) database, and failed to properly secure it.
    Last edited by Jinsai; 08-21-2015 at 04:22 AM.

  17. #2147
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    Yep, they fucked up — for sure. You might even say the users of the site were defrauded, which is exactly what the hackers were alleging before they dumped the data and said "fuck you, thirty-six million assholes (who may have done nothing wrong) — we're punishing you too".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    I'm well aware that married people use sites/apps like Tinder, but it's different if the site is directly making that the point of their service. I'm not rallying with pitchforks, but to say that there isn't any real difference between Ashley Madison and OK Cupid is odd. AM's slogan is/was "Life is short, have an affair."
    That is called marketing. Functionally, there is no difference between it and other hookup sites. Users set up a profile and look for sex, and that's it. There's no cabal of operatives encouraging people.
    Last edited by botley; 08-21-2015 at 11:27 AM.

  18. #2148
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    Let's be clear, here, though: "Dating" and "Fucking" are two different things. Match is for people looking for a spouse. Tindr is not.

    And, really, hackers have always been a vengeful lot. It gets more attention.
    Last edited by Cat Mom; 08-21-2015 at 02:22 PM.

  19. #2149
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Well, in the very least, the users are possibly facing punishment for using government resources (computer, IP).
    That would be just silly if this leak caused them to get in trouble for that. It's just as much a misuse of resources as going to ESPN or any other unapproved site.

    The OPM hack does add some interesting complexity there though. They had to shutdown their electronic processing site and revert to paper for all security clearance applications. They get ~30k applications per week. They are super bottlenecked. So, replacing people might actually be a bit of an issue.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post

    Still, the biggest issue for me is the way Ashley Madison actually stored and collected user information. Part of their whole sales pitch was that they promised to scrub all the data away after the transaction was complete... instead they didn't erase anything, collected it all into this (now leaked) database, and failed to properly secure it.
    The storage and collection really isn't too surprising. Their security really did seem to be above average, from what I am seeing. As I mentioned before, the passwords were stored MUCH more securely than most banks(!!).

    Their failure to actually delete accounts WHILE charging people $20 to do it is absolutely ridiculous though. They NEED to be sued over that. From what I remember, they pulled in nearly $2million just from the deleted account option. AM did do some minor account scrubbing, but they definitely didn't touch the credit card history (which a delete request will show up under since people are paying for it).


    This is one area that I am absolutely in favor of more laws to protect the consumer. There are so many ridiculous "anti hacking" type laws that do absolutely nothing to protect against sophisticated attacks. It hurts small timers and security researchers. The laws need to be focused on accountability of those who hold our information. This needs to go hand-in-hand with securing individual privacy online. (and NOT anything close to the stupid "right to forget" bullshit that just fuck up freedom of speech)

  20. #2150
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    That would be just silly if this leak caused them to get in trouble for that. It's just as much a misuse of resources as going to ESPN or any other unapproved site.
    Well, but they are not allowed to surf porn sites, etc. I'm surprised that site wasn't blocked.

    Re OPM - that form is completed only for high-level security clearance, it's not an everyday normal form. But, for the ones who are FORCED to complete it, it's a REQUIRED form (new hires or every 10 years). G doesn't remember it having fidelity or psych questions. Nobody would even be HONEST about that. It's an FBI SECURITY CLEARANCE form. It has a lot of financial data, prior BKs, if any, divorce info, etc. And it asks if any family members are foreigners or if they have been deported. And you have to provide spouse info (name, soc.).

    Edit: G says he has the highest-level of security clearance, like, NORAD-level clearance, but there are others with much lower clearance, so everybody doesn't get the same scrutiny.
    Last edited by Cat Mom; 08-21-2015 at 06:04 PM.

  21. #2151
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    I retract my statement about AM's security being "above average." Seems only their password storage technique was above average. Everything else looks to be horribly insecure... which is, unfortunately, pretty common.

    The hackers from Impact Team told Motherboard, “We worked hard to make fully undetectable attack, then got in and found nothing to bypass….Nobody was watching. No security. Only thing was segmented network. You could use Pass1234 from the internet to VPN to root on all servers.”
    (http://www.wired.com/2015/08/ashley-...ons-explained/)

  22. #2152
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    A San Antonio city employee that was listed in the dump commit suicide on Thursday. Cause hasn't been proven though.

    http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc...ey-6458805.php

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    ^^^ I'm relatively certain the dump would have had something to do with it. Yeah, maybe they had some other problems, but I could see it being the last straw, at least.

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    Someone in England thought it was a good idea for dated 60 year old planes to do crazy stunts over busy roads in public areas ...
    A 60 year old RAF jet landed on about 10 cars in a traffic jam in 2015 and obliterated everyone ...they reckon at least 15 dead you dont really expect this do you??? .

    They should not be doing fucking stupid stunts in old planes in public areas its insane.

  25. #2155
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    Pilot's still alive. I would not want to be, were I he.

  26. #2156
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    A San Antonio city employee that was listed in the dump commit suicide on Thursday. Cause hasn't been proven though.

    http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc...ey-6458805.php
    Toronto Police now reporting two suicides. Hopefully worth it for the lulz

  27. #2157
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    Quote Originally Posted by botley View Post
    Toronto Police now reporting two suicides. Hopefully worth it for the lulz
    fuck
    I knew this was going to happen but I'm already surprised. 3 accounts that made it to the public media this early... feels like too much.

    A lot of the users just cant wrap their heads around the technical implication well enough to grasp what is going on. When they do, there will be a lot more incidents.

    1- Lot's who already know about the AM hack still can't figure out how to search the data.

    2 - Most of the "search an email" sites are created with only partial data (no credit card logs, for instance), making a lot of the existing searchers sit with a false sense of security. They will end up getting screwed sometime in the future.

    3 - Some people are searching the much larger "has my account been hacked" sites (intended to show if ANY leak had your email) and assuming it is the same as searching the AM hack.

    4 - And many are just hopelessly clueless about the hack, asking questions like "will changing my password save me?"


    and lots more here: http://www.troyhunt.com/2015/08/here...bers-have.html

  28. #2158
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    A lot of the users just cant wrap their heads around the technical implication well enough to grasp what is going on. When they do, there will be a lot more incidents.
    That's almost definitely true. I'm surprised there's only been two so far.

    Has there been any clarification about the issue the hackers originally had with the main parent company?

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    I saw that on reddit earlier and the wording of the headline makes me think of some gender argument. Like "Normal? Don't you mean Cis?????"

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