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Jesus fucking christ... this guy HELD AN EXIT DOOR SHUT while people were trying to escape through it during the shooting.
http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/06/1...ng-escape-club
I get that people do stupid stuff when they panic, but that should be criminal.
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This is awesome, especially the Obama clip holy crapOriginally Posted by Hazekiah
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"Could Congress Have Stopped Omar Mateen From Getting His Guns? Democrats say yes. Here’s their case for a firearms restriction on people on the terrorist watch list."
tempus est umbra in mente
Holy shit...
I can't even process that. Sure, people freak out, but I can't even tell if he initially understood that he was admitting to doing something so horrible. What that guy did is almost tantamount to murder
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I'm honestly kind of disgusted by both sides of the argument at this point. I had insomnia the night it happened, so I watched it unfold live online and both sides instantly jumped on it to push their agendas before details of the situation were even clear. Could people really not have given it a few days before starting the conversation? Like, it feels as though the victims were brushed over. Some of the same people I've seen arguing about gun control or Islam didn't even acknowledge the victims when their names were released. I understand people are tired of situations like this, but it feels so disrespectful to push the victims aside. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.
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I agree but I'd like to have more details on the exact situation they were dealing with.
It's not clear what happened and why they had to deal with the situation that way.he helped hold a door shut to create passage for people trying to escape
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True and it does not say that it was an "exit" door. It could have been the door to a room inside the club, as I guess the club is split up into various rooms.
Exit doors don't generally open "inward" as that is a huge fire hazard; people jam up against it and they can't open it inward with people crushed against it. See Cocoanut Grove Fire.and a harrowing moment when he helped hold a door shut to create passage for people trying to escape - possibly at the detriment of others trapped inside
Last edited by allegro; 06-15-2016 at 12:29 PM.
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Quoting this again because everyone has shifted away from it.
Dylan Roof shoots up a black church and we relentlessly talk about racism, essentially ban a flag, and end a TV show...
But an islamic follower who pledged allegiance to ISIS shoots up a gay club and the biggest thing the "national conversation" wants to focus on is gun control. Especially gun control that would have had no impact on this shooting (background checks, etc). ... It just seems like a giant slap in the face to the entire LGBT community, especially when you consider how the Dylan Roof shooting was responded to.
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No, there was a shitload of focus on gun control back then, too. You just never like any focus on gun control.
Exhibit BJULY 10, 2015
WASHINGTON — The man accused of killing nine people in a historically black church in South Carolina last month was able to buy the gun used in the attack because of a breakdown in the federal gun background check system, the F.B.I. said Friday.
Despite having previously admitted to drug possession, the man, Dylann Roof, 21, was allowed to buy the .45-caliber handgun because of mistakes by F.B.I. agents, a failure by local prosecutors to respond to a bureau request for more information about his case, and a weakness in federal gun laws.
“We are all sick this happened,” said James B. Comey, the F.B.I. director. “We wish we could turn back time. From this vantage point, everything seems obvious.”
Exhibit C
Exhibit D
Hillary Clinton re Roof last December
Bill introduced in Congress right after Charleston shooting
Editorial in the Chicago Tribune in July of 2015, "How Dylann Roof Got His Gun"
Last edited by allegro; 06-15-2016 at 12:52 PM.
Active Member
I love focus on gun control. It gives me something to play with and laugh at. That should be fairly obvious. I mean, cmon... universal background checks in response to a shooting that had the shooter go through multiple background checks and didn't stop him? What's not to laugh at? It happens every single time and the proponents never seem to learn.
I just think its fucked up how much LGBT are being drowned out right now. Yeah, Roof also started some gun control talk, but it sure didn't seem to be the dominant topic. The confederate flag and the culture around it was HUGE in comparison. There is no momentum on the topic of homophobia or radical islamic culture that even compares to that.
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It WAS a dominant topic back then, as well as racism. The topics aren't mutually exclusive. You can't drown out the importance of one topic in favor of another. In order to attempt to stop this from happening to anybody, be it children, blacks, the LGBT community, women, whomever, you have the same goal. No, it won't stop ALL, but even if it slows it down, that is enough. Laws are an attempt to curtail; no law can totally stop anything.
The FBI fucked up with the Roof case, too. Same as with this one. The shooter in this case has been determined to have likely to have been gay, himself, and was probably struggling with it due to his being gay and Muslim, and he - for whatever reason - was attracted to an Islamic extremist group that hated the very person he was and promoted the murder of gay people. So this is a multi-faceted problem, here. But it doesn't mean that "LGBT rights" should be the sole focus, mutually exclusive from a mentally ill person's ability to easily obtain an AR-15 type weapon.
The system that isn't perfect shouldn't just be thrown into the air, "oh well, I guess that's it, then." It means we have to DEMAND THAT IT BE IMPROVED.
Black and brown people and children are killed in Chicago every fucking day, and the mothers and families of the people are pointing at ONE FUCKING THING: Gun laws. They want to change the laws so that people who are convicted of crimes in which guns are involved stay in jail longer; they want a national system that is consistent where strawmen can't go to Indiana and easily buy guns and sell them in Chicago; they want Federal assistance in stopping the gang activity where guns are used in the drug trade; etc. etc. etc. which isn't just HELP WE ARE BLACK AND BROWN AND THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS. No, it's HELP WE ARE BEING SHOT AND OUR KIDS DESERVE TO LIVE TO REACH ADULTHOOD SO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THESE FUCKING GUNS AND DRUGS.
Last edited by allegro; 06-15-2016 at 01:40 PM.
tempus est umbra in mente
Every time someone goes on a shooting spree, the topic of gun control is wearily brought up, even though it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that we're going to go right back to business as usual.
To claim that this is not being framed as a horrific assault upon the LGBT community is just dishonest... but the focus is difficult (and maybe even irresponsible) to reduce to one aspect at the expense of other points. The victims were homosexuals. The killer was also (most likely) a closet homosexual, and while we'll never know for certain why he snapped, it's hard to ignore that his religious convictions could have played a part, but let's not forget about the issue of mental illness here. His ex-wife claims he was erratic, violent, and suggests that he was bi-polar. He was investigated twice by the FBI for suspected terror ties. His co-workers repeatedly complained that he was prone to ranting and supporting terrorist groups. His father shows up in a Youtube video endorsing the Taliban. He had to go to special schools because he was too spastic to handle general education. Despite our government's terrifying spy network that is holding everyone under surveillance, they couldn't see this coming. That point is important too, as it plays into the discussion of the efficacy of this spying program in its ability to actually monitor what it professes to hold as the primary justification for its existence. It begs for a discussion about whether or not our intelligence networks are becoming clogged due to an overload of pointless information.
Additionally, as much as you may want to infer that this last point somehow is an insult to homosexuals, this discussion will regurgitate the gun control debate. Of course it will. It should. This disaster is so monumental that it almost seems to condense everything wrong with America, and even if you are an ardent gun rights activist, you have to admit America has a gun problem. That's not even questionable.
We have a gun problem, and that problem is more specifically tied to semi-automatic guns. You can argue that legislating that form of weaponry is somehow irrelevant to a larger discussion, but it's getting to the point where it's somewhat absurd to hold to that.
Glad to see we're disagreeing again. At least that aspect of this discussion makes me feel a little more sane.
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Frankly, this has happened to many times that we are WAY past a ban on assault weapons (again). Yes, this could happen with bombs, too. Yes, the attacks on black churches in this country (which still happen a lot, btw) mostly happens with fires, not guns, and the racism in this country leveled by white supremacists against whites has existed for hundreds of years, since slavery. Yes, some of the past mass murders have happened with weapons other than "assault weapons." Also, there is pretty much ZERO focus on the role of guns and domestic violence against women, WHICH IS HUGE. No, we can't totally avoid shit from happening. But, starting with massive changes in gun control that do not affect the general law-abiding citizen but DO affect people we don't want having guns is way past overdue. If it means we have to give up some of our freedoms in order to protect our right to life, then so be it.
Last edited by allegro; 06-15-2016 at 01:44 PM.
Active Member
nobody said it should be the only focus. I just think it deserves more.
Care to point me somewhere that represents the "national conversation" and demonstrates the homophobia angle getting appropriate attention? Cause I'm not seeing much. All I really have seen is directly from LGBT groups themselves.
tempus est umbra in mente
Well, if social media is anything to go by, the national discussion is happening. Many of my friends who are (to the best of my knowledge) straight are doing that thing where they change their profile handle to show solidarity with the gay community. A series of variations on this is making the rounds:
Here in LA there was a memorial vigil where thousands of people gathered in tribute to the victims. The site was decorated with rainbow flags and the surrounding buildings were illuminated in rainbow colors.
When Obama addressed the nation, before he got to details or any note about guns, he called it "an act of hate." Before he got to any point about guns, he said that this "was an especially heartbreaking day for all of our friends, our fellow Americans, who are lesbian gay bisexual or transgender. The shooter targeted a nightclub where people came together to be with friends, to dance and sing, and to live. The place where they were attacked is more than a nightclub, it is a place of solidarity and empowerment where people come together to raise awareness, to speak their minds, and to advocate for their civil rights."
He went on to say that an attack on someone for their sexual orientation is an attack on all Americans.
You just had a sitting American president not only endorse the lifestyle of LGBT people who go to gay nightclubs, but described a gay nightclub as a sanctuary akin to a church. He asserted the dignity of an institution that you've heard homophobes mock and deride. You have never heard a president offer a gesture of solidarity towards the gay community like that.
The only reason you think this issue is being swept under the rug is because you don't want it to get to the point where we talk about banning semi-automatic guns.
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I have seen none of that. Maybe it's because a large part of my straight friends live in San Francisco and don't realize how things are outside of the Bay Area. All I see there (and here) is a primary focus on guns.
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Being that you are the second to say this... what possible motive do I have to avoid the gun topic? When have I ever avoided talking about gun control?
The only way there is truth in this statement is in the fact that I think it detracts from a more important angle and the fact that I believe gun control to be non-preventative in these incidents.
You phrase this as if I am fearful of gun control. As if i haven't said many times that gun control is Sisyphean in nature for multiple reasons. You wanna talk gun control? Go post in the gun thread and I will give you a list of all the shooters who passed a background check. Etc. Go look at the last few posts of mine in that thread and tell me where gun control has a successful future, from my perspective.
edit: almost forgot... I also live in CALIFORNIA. There is NOTHING that will be applied at the federal level that is likely to have any further restriction on me anyway. Go and tighten down things for people in other states (if you can), if anything, it will have a blowback effect that might actually block certain CA gun control.
Last edited by DigitalChaos; 06-15-2016 at 02:51 PM.
tempus est umbra in mente
Ok, let me rephrase it. You don't want this issue to be a launching point for a legitimate argument in favor of banning semi-automatic guns.
Again though, I'm not even pushing for it, though mostly because I think it's unlikely and I'd rather focus on working towards something realistic. I already did post a link to a list of the mass shootings since 1982, with the case-by-case lists of the type of weapon used, whether or not the weapon[s] were purchased legally, and the known mental status of the killer. Yes, people are passing the background checks... so yes, these background checks are not sufficient.
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I've yet to see such a thing. But hey, go for it!
agree! And that's why a "legitimate argument" in favor is unlikely to exist. Thus, it's just a complete waste of time that could be spent elsewhere. Granted, that time waste happens every single time... so it's just depressing to watch at this point. But don't make it like I am someone trying to block "legitimate argument" on the topic. I'm the guy saying "fucking do something worth while. do something that actually has benefits for the group of people who was most recently impacted here"
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As I scroll through NPR's facebook feed... all mentions of Orlando are about gun control with a sprinkle of key fact updates about the shooting.
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You keep discounting or ignoring the fact that the shooter was gay, himself. There is relevance to that point. So a gay guy struggling with his own homosexuality because of being in a strict Muslim culture where his parents came from Afghanistan but he came from Queens, NY, was allegedly diagnosed as bipolar, had all kinds of other issues, was likely afraid to come out to any of his own family or community, etc. This is a big part of this whole picture. There are a LOT of people coming forward online saying that they were in the neighborhood this guy was doing security duty in, little old ladies saying he would help them across the street or help them unload their cars, etc. Sure, there was the harassment stuff at work, which coworkers allege went on because his employers allegedly wouldn't deal with because he was Muslim and maybe they were afraid of an EEO situation, who knows, but he was definitely two different people. And a guy who was a closeted struggling gay man, himself, this isn't just some run-of-the-mill anti-gay hate crime, here; this is, more realistically, just more the case of someone who was mentally ill getting ahold of guns.
Come on, seriously, that's because it's NPR, that's all NPR cares about. That's hardly infallible evidence of the pulse of the nation (no pun intended).
Last edited by allegro; 06-15-2016 at 03:42 PM.
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I didn't ignore it. I was the first one to post about that fact in this thread!
Show me some major news sources that differ from NPR's coverage then. I'm generally pretty good at taking the temperature of a national conversation.
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I'm not sure the media takes the temperature; they attempt to SET the temperature.
Re the mood and national conversation:
How about just Google?
How about Twitter?
Last edited by allegro; 06-15-2016 at 04:22 PM.
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Here's the thing, though; he thinks that focusing on LGBT rights and not on guns will somehow "do" something, even though there are already, on the books, hate crime laws that protect LGBT rights. LGBT rights are civil rights. Do civil right 100% "protect" LGBT people? Hell no, not anymore than laws protect the three women who are killed every.single.day in this country by partners. Nor do those civil rights 100% protect black and brown people from being shot every single day in cities like Chicago.
Last edited by allegro; 06-15-2016 at 04:44 PM.
tempus est umbra in mente
That might have something to do with the current filibuster to force the issue?
Really though, if you're not seeing this discussion I don't know what to tell you...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2...ting/85887572/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...iety-has-come/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...dd79f?section=
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando-...eful-rhetoric/
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/...htclub-orlando
https://www.splcenter.org/news/2016/...lgbt-community
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/14/...ando-shooting/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michel..._10460898.html
http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2016/...mmunity-reacts
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...htmlstory.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...rimes-history/
http://learningenglish.voanews.com/a...e/3375985.html
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...rlando/486923/
http://www.laweekly.com/slideshow/la...ictims-7028278
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/op...cans.html?_r=0
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0e39a28add385
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/op...pgtype=article
http://qz.com/705524/lgbt-americans-...fe-in-america/
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...ando-shooting/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/orlando...tion-1.3634078
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...lando-shooting
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...lando-massacre
https://mic.com/articles/146125/in-t...cre#.QDP9WEc1R
http://time.com/4368671/orlando-shooting-muslim/
https://thump.vice.com/en_us/article...ubbing-dancing
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...-often-werent/
http://journalstar.com/news/national...158c35be5.html
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2...igh_alert.html
Hell, here's an article that even is making a similar point that not enough people are talking about it, so we can add that to the discussion
Maybe I'm missing the kind of coverage you're looking for. What kind of article are you wanting to see on NPR? If we're looking for discussion, here's a bullshit opinion piece written by an asshole for the NYPost, where he calls out Obama for making this about gay stuff and not focusing on Islamic terrorism
Or we could look at how conservative politicians are being blasted for pathetically trying to ignore the LGBT issue
Or hear the crazy loony tunes shit that Pat Robertson has to say about it
So which is it? We have dumbasses getting pissed at the president for addressing an issue that you're saying nobody is talking about. We have a ridiculous politician refusing to even acknowledge that Pulse is a gay club. Pat Robertson has made it clear that he considers this a blow to the left's "narrative" about respecting Muslim and LGBT communities. According to that son of a bitch at the New York Post, we're hearing too much about it.
Last edited by Jinsai; 06-15-2016 at 04:48 PM.
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Well, except this guy, the Lt. Governor of Utah.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Thank you for being here tonight on this very solemn and somber occasion. I begin with an admission and an apology. First, I recognize fully that I am a balding, youngish, middle-aged straight, white, male, Republican, politician…with all of the expectations and privileges that come with those labels. I am probably not who you expected to hear from today.
I’m here because, yesterday morning, 49 Americans were brutally murdered. And it made me sad. And it made me angry. And it made me confused. I’m here because those 49 people were gay. I’m here because it shouldn’t matter. But I’m here because it does.
I am not here to tell you that I know exactly what you are going through. I am not here to tell you that I feel your pain. I don’t pretend to know the depths of what you are feeling right now. But I do know what it feels like to be scared. And I do know what it feels like to be sad. And I do know what it feels like to be rejected. And, more importantly, I know what it feels like to be loved.
I grew up in a small town and went to a small rural high school. There were some kids in my class that were different. Sometimes I wasn’t kind to them. I didn’t know it at the time, but I know now that they were gay. I will forever regret not treating them with the kindness, dignity and respect — the love — that they deserved. For that, I sincerely and humbly apologize.
Over the intervening years, my heart has changed. It has changed because of you. It has changed because I have gotten to know many of you. You have been patient with me. You helped me learn the right letters of the alphabet in the right order even though you keep adding new ones. You have been kind to me. Jim Dabakis even told me I dressed nice once, even though I know he was lying. You have treated me with the kindness, dignity, and respect — the love — that I very often did NOT deserve. And it has made me love you.
But now we are here. We are here because 49 beautiful, amazing people are gone. These are not just statistics. These were individuals. These are human beings. They each have a story. They each had dreams, goals, talents, friends, family. They are you and they are me. And one night they went out to relax, to laugh, to connect, to forget, to remember. And in a few minutes of chaos and terror, they were gone.
I believe that we can all agree we have come a long way as a society when it comes to our acceptance and understanding of the LGBTQ community (did I get that right?). However, there has been something about this tragedy that has very much troubled me. I believe that there is a question, two questions actually, that each of us needs to ask ourselves in our heart of hearts. And I am speaking now to the straight community. How did you feel when you heard that 49 people had been gunned down by a self-proclaimed terrorist? That’s the easy question. Here is the hard one: Did that feeling change when you found out the shooting was at a gay bar at 2 am in the morning? If that feeling changed, then we are doing something wrong.
So now we find ourselves at a crossroads. A crossroads of hate and terror. How do we respond? How do you respond? Do we lash out with anger, hate and mistrust. Or do we, as Lincoln begged, appeal to the “better angels of our nature?”
Usually when tragedy occurs, we see our nation come together. I was saddened, yesterday to see far too many retreating to their over-worn policy corners and demagoguery. Let me be clear, there are no simple policy answers to this tragedy. Beware of anyone who tells you that they have the easy solution. It doesn’t exist. And I can assure you this — that calling people idiots, communists, facists or bigots on Facebook is not going to change any hearts or minds. Today we need fewer Republicans and fewer Democrats. Today we need more Americans.
But just because an easy solution doesn’t exist, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. The greatest generations in the history of the world were never innately great. They became great because of how they responded in the face of evil. Their humanity is measured by their response to hate and terror.
I truly believe that this is the defining issue of our generation. Can we be brave? Can we be strong? Can we be kind and, perhaps, even happy, in the face of atrocious acts of hate and terrorism? Do we find a way to unite? Or do these atrocities further corrode and divide our torn nation? Can we, the citizens of the great state of Utah, lead the nation with love in the face of adversity? Can WE become a greatest generation?
I promise we can. But I also promise it will never happen if we leave it to the politicians. Ultimately, there is only one way for us to come together. It must happen at a personal level. We must learn to truly love one another.
The Prophet Muhammad is reported to have said: “You will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another.”
Jesus said, “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you.”
Now, you know a little something about hate. And you know a little something about persecution. But you also know something about loving, blessing and doing good. What our country needs more than ever is less politics and more kindness. If nothing else, as we can see here tonight, this tragedy has the potential to bring us closer than ever before.
And so may we leave today, with a resolve to be a little kinder. May we try to listen more and talk less. May we forgive someone that has wronged us. And perhaps, most importantly, try to love someone that is different than us. For my straight friends, might I suggest starting with someone who is gay.
I leave you with the words of Lyndon B. Johnson. They were spoken at another very sad time in our history, the death of President John F. Kennedy. He said this:
“Our enemies have always made the same mistake. In my lifetime — in depression and in war — they have awaited our defeat. Each time, from the secret places of the American heart, came forth the faith they could not see or that they could not even imagine. It brought us victory. And it will again. For this is what America is all about.”
On behalf of the 3 million people of the state of Utah, We Are Orlando. We love you. And I love you.
Last edited by allegro; 06-15-2016 at 04:52 PM.
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NRA Announces Position Regarding Selling Guns to Terrorists.
Sounds interesting, EXCEPT ...We are happy to meet with Donald Trump. The NRA's position on this issue has not changed. The NRA believes that terrorists should not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms, period. Anyone on a terror watchlist who tries to buy a gun should be thoroughly investigated by the FBI and the sale delayed while the investigation is ongoing. If an investigation uncovers evidence of terrorist activity or involvement, the government should be allowed to immediately go to court, block the sale, and arrest the terrorist. At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed.
Cornyn’s proposal would require the Department of Justice to prove to a judge that a suspected terrorist has already committed or will actually commit an act of terrorism – a standard so high that it’s practically meaningless. And DOJ would have only 72 hours to do the nearly impossible. Otherwise, a potentially dangerous gun sale could proceed.
Last edited by allegro; 06-15-2016 at 10:08 PM.
Active Member
so... add due process to the terrorist lists, allow citizens a process to remove themselves when they are wrongly added... and then it's cool to use it to deny gun purchases. What's wrong with that? Everyone should be backing this, especially those on the left.
That 72 hour thing was from a separate proposal. But a 72 hour delay in context of what the NRA is saying would be plenty if the due process was done *in advance* of the purchase attempt... which it should be! It should be done at the time of adding a person to the terrorist lists.
Active Member
"do something" also extends beyond law.
We got a pretty heavy cultural shift after the Dylan Roof thing. The guy who used to wear the confederate flag as a mask and create an entire persona out of it decided to change his views on it after the shooting for fucks sake. No laws needed!
And committing terrorism is illegal, shooting people with guns is illegal, etc... but you aren't sitting there saying "bro that shit's already illegal, we can't just make it more illegal"
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If you are on the list, THEN you fight it to show you should not be on the list. The FBI should not need a court order, first. Due process is lost in the interest of immediate national security, then an appeal is filed. Nobody is being accused of a CRIME, they are only temporarily having their 2nd Amendment right suspended and no due process is required.
Just like when you violate an Order of Protection, you lose your 2nd Amendment rights. When you have a felony conviction, no more 2nd Amendment rights (you can't vote if you're on parole, either). When you commiserate with or claim allegiance to terrorists, you lose your 2nd Amendment rights. This can be appealed, of course.
Being added to the list SHOULD NOT require a court order; that is a nearly-impossible task for any Judge in courtrooms that are already impossibly overcrowded (trust me) with backlogged cases, even if Judges rubber-stamp approve these Motions (which they will).
However, an appeal process via state Senators should be made to be an easy process (whereas right now, getting yourself OFF of the do-not-fly list is a Herculean task).
The only way to expedite this WITH due process would be to create a special Federal Division or Judicial Magistrate who ONLY handles these Motions and nothing else, to avoid the backlog in other Federal courtrooms. Then, of course, "due process" will be handled by rubber stamp just like it would in any Federal courtrooms where Judges give the Feds anything they want. If people think "due process" means that these Judges will actually listen, with a keen ear and a mind toward "justice," they're smoking a crack pipe (and/or watching too much TV).
Last edited by allegro; 06-16-2016 at 02:29 AM.
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