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  1. #2701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Beach View Post
    "I hate cops"
    Yeah, I'm so done with some of you. It's a shitty generalization period. The Dallas PD were actually HELPING BLM and protecting them during their protest, even documenting their protest on their twitter and giving them their support.
    The dallas PD regularly beat the shit out of me, although i DO think that this is an awful tragedy.
    Some of us have regularly been on the receiving end of police violence.
    This is the reason why i am terrified of cops-regular beatings, threats, and flat out false charges by the Dallas Police and DART cops especially.

    At the same time...Good call, @Frozen Beach .
    I will tone down the language.

    eDIT: i AM curious, though, to know how much one on one contact you've had with the DPD. I have spent most of my life in the triple D, so when i say i don't like cops, i mean dallas cops, generally.
    They were shooting unarmed people in Oakcliff STEADILY, long before those sorts of things became national headlines.
    Throw in the fake drug scandal, among other things, and yeah, there is and has been a LOT of anger brewing between the DPD and (mostly) people on the south side of the trinity river going back to the 60s AT LEAST.
    Last edited by elevenism; 07-08-2016 at 11:29 PM.

  2. #2702
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    Sorry for the anger, but I've legitimately been seeing some fucked up shit today on the internet, like people celebrating their deaths and wishing more cops would be killed. I've been biting my tongue for the whole day, so I kind of needed to unleash some frustration and I did t on the wrong person.

  3. #2703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Beach View Post
    Sorry for the anger, but I've legitimately been seeing some fucked up shit today on the internet, like people celebrating their deaths and wishing more cops would be killed. I've been biting my tongue for the whole day, so I kind of needed to unleash some frustration and I did t on the wrong person.
    But you ARE right.
    Saying "I hate cops" isn't exactly appropriate, especially right now.

  4. #2704
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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    But you ARE right.
    Saying "I hate cops" isn't exactly appropriate, especially right now.
    This shit in Dallas has NOTHING to do with Dallas cops; it was in response to the recent police shootings of black people in the last few days according to that guy's Facebook page and his conversation with the DPD; he was out to shoot "white people, especially white cops" because of those incidents, which DIDN'T happen in Dallas but that didn't matter to him. This guy was an Army Reservist, hence the militarization of this shit. He didn't appear to have had any beef with the DPD, himself.

    Police who raided Johnson's home found bomb making materials, ballistic vests, rifles and a combat tactics manual.

    It also emerged that he had links with a number of "black power" groups which are being investigated by the law enforcement authorities.

    "He said he was upset about the recent police shootings,” said David Brown, the Dallas Police Chief, quoting Johnson. "The suspect said he was upset at white people. The suspect stated that he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers.”

    Reuters is reporting that Johnson had "interacted" with black power groups and that the links are being investigated by the authorities.

    Babu Omowale, the co-founder of the Huey P. Newton Gun Club, a Dallas-based black militia that performs armed community patrols, said Johnson came to black community events in Dallas.

    "We don't condone it, we don't support it, but we understand it," Mr Omowale said.

    "We can understand how the conditions of America today pushed that man to respond how he did. Every man and woman has his breaking point, and we just think Micah got to his breaking point before anyone else."

    Mr Omowale said the club was founded in August 2014 in the wake of black teenager Michael Brown's fatal shooting by police in Ferguson, Missouri, and organizes armed groups under Texas's "open-carry" gun laws to monitor police and drug activity.

    He said he did not know Johnson personally but recognized him from gatherings to commemorate black historical events. "He wasn't a stranger to us."

    On Facebook, Johnson "liked" the New Black Panther Party, the Black Riders Liberation Party, the Huey P. Newton Gun Club, and the African American Defence League, which following Thursday night's shootings by calling for attacks on "everything in blue except the mail man."
    And, yes, this isn't the time or place to bring your white anger at the DPD, dude. It's kinda mixing the message, here. I highly recommend that Coates book.

    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    They were shooting unarmed people in Oakcliff STEADILY, long before those sorts of things became national headlines.
    Throw in the fake drug scandal, among other things, and yeah, there is and has been a LOT of anger brewing between the DPD and (mostly) people on the south side of the trinity river going back to the 60s AT LEAST.
    Dude, that ain't nothing compared to places like Baltimore or Chicago etc. Read that Coates book.
    Last edited by allegro; 07-09-2016 at 01:48 AM.

  5. #2705
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    Another shooter in TN. Supposedly troubled by the recent police shootings of black people. He shot 4 people. 1 was a cop, all are white.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.2704581

  6. #2706
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    perhaps @icklekitty can let us know whether white people "sort of had this coming."

    But you know what, she is right if you rephrase it to "should have expected this." Saying anyone "had it coming" implies some level of justice, which is extremely wrong. But we live with people who view entire blocks of people by categories that become the "other side." And @Sallos is totally right to point out the Muslims parallel. Any time a specific category of people does something bad, there is a large number of people willing to vilify the entire category over it and it creates a lot of hate and that hate builds in narrow minded people. In some people that hate builds into action. We love making the other side the bad guy, especially if we already have an existing bias against them. So yes, you should expect this kind of thing if you are remotely aware of society.

    A minority of muslim terrorists prompts huge backlash against all muslims.
    A minority of cops killing people creates a backlash against all cops.
    A minority of BLM activists being assholes creates backlash against all of BLM.
    A minority of people with guns killing creates a backlash against all gun owners.

  7. #2707
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    A minority of cops killing people creates a backlash against all cops.
    Except I think that police attitudes against minorities in general really needs to change drastically; it really has become "us vs. them" across the country due to the militarization of police forces and "shoot first, ask later" and the training really needs to change. This isn't a "minority" of cops, this is a general trigger-happy attitude supported by SCOTUS. It isn't always necessarily "racist" but the underlying trigger-happy shit coupled with profiling minorities results in more minorities being shot.

    But institutionalized racism, that's a whole other thing. Like in Te-Nehisi Coates' book, "Between the World and Me," he talks about the death of his college friend, Prince Jones. HERE IS AN ARTICLE ABOUT IT. This kind of profiling, a terrible error, a stupid senseless killing of a promising young educated man, it just makes no damned sense to me, yet it's just another day in the life to a black man. It just makes me feel so fucking fortunate that I wasn't born a black man which is sad. That should NOT be the case.
    Last edited by allegro; 07-09-2016 at 01:59 AM.

  8. #2708
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    Random General Headlines

    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Except I think that police attitudes against minorities in general really needs to change drastically; it really has become "us vs. them" across the country due to the militarization of police forces and "shoot first, ask later" and the training really needs to change. This isn't a "minority" of cops, this is a general trigger-happy attitude supported by SCOTUS. It isn't always necessarily "racist" but the underlying trigger-happy shit coupled with profiling minorities results in more minorities being shot.
    Every instance of "us vs them" has different causes and different factors that magnify the issue. Cops "otherizing" minorities involves a lot of their personal bias too. It's not equal across all police forces in the country. Some areas are much better than others. But there are certainly huge systemic/legal changes need too.

    The biggest weight toward police being defined as a unified group responsible for the actions of a minority of members is their group's control. They truly do control their own culture, how they act, respond to failures, etc. Many other groups that get vilified are very loosely associated individuals making their own choices.


    Deciding to shoot random cops because of this goes way off into the toxic and small minded tribalism that I was describing in the last post though.

  9. #2709
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    perhaps @icklekitty can let us know whether white people "sort of had this coming."

    But you know what, she is right if you rephrase it to "should have expected this." Saying anyone "had it coming" implies some level of justice, which is extremely wrong. But we live with people who view entire blocks of people by categories that become the "other side." And @Sallos is totally right to point out the Muslims parallel.
    No, Sallos isn't right. As you mentioned, the police force is an organized law enforcement group capable of analyzing their own behavior and control it, responsible for their own members, whether to protect them, or condemn them according to the law they enforce.
    Muslims aren't a function of society, there is no central authority, and they have no actual power.
    The police is there to protect the citizen, against themselves if need be, and are given a lot of power and means to do so. They enforce the law and are supposed to respect it. But in the recent years there has been an increasing feeling that they acted like they were above it. The atitude of the police -as a societal entity- has been dismissive at best, when it should have taken their bad elements' attitude seriously.
    A force trained and armed with the goal to protect and control the public should be held in high standart when it comes to the law it enforces.

    Nobody here is saying that killing these officers was right. It's a fucking murder, nobody's cheering or saying they deserved this. But the Police, seeing the unrest their attitude created, should have reacted and predicted such an event. Because everyone else did.

  10. #2710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khrz View Post
    Seriously that kind of non-argument has to stop. "What if I completely change the context of the situation, is that different now ?". Holy shit yeah, amazing. Everything turns sinister when you put Nazis instead of Homosexuals, suddenly terrorism isn't that scary when you replace Isis with Hippies. Who would have thought. Thanks to this brilliant line of reasoning everything has become perfectly equal in the world, fantastic.
    Icklekitty just did the same thing, replacing cops with catholic priests, which in my opinion really begs the question, if there is any backlash against the muslim community, "did they not see this coming?"

    Anyway, DigitalChaos pretty much summed it up about what i feel/think.

  11. #2711
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    The comparison is disingenuous but at least more parallels can be drawn : A central authority failing to take into account and properly react to the monstrous failings of some of its own members, instead deciding to sweep the embarrassment under the rug and hope for the best.
    Again, there is no such thing in Islam.

  12. #2712
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khrz View Post
    The comparison is disingenuous but at least more parallels can be drawn : A central authority failing to take into account and properly react to the monstrous failings of some of its own members, instead deciding to sweep the embarrassment under the rug and hope for the best.
    Again, there is no such thing in Islam.

    Exactly (and I agree with your comments overnight too @Khrz ). Racial groups (and other protected characteristics) are not institutions. You do not choose to be a racial group. Institutions have responsibilities to their community. Institutions are not people. They do not have feelings or arteries that can get shot. As a result of chronically overlooking their institutional racism problem for decades the police DID have an enormous backlash and disaster coming. @Sallos I actually did the exact opposite. I said the Catholic Church and specifically said NOT the priests. The Catholic Church is also an institution. Being Christian and having faith are not.

    Does the term "police" only ever refer to specific individuals in America? It's a general word for state-empowered law enforcement. That's the word I used; "police". Not "police officers", not "the cops who got shot". I said from the outset and repeated that I didn't think the individual policemen deserved to be killed but some of you are enjoying this idea anyway and will probably read my above paragraph as "she doesn't think cops have feelings". Are people really unable to see the difference between the institution and the people?
    Last edited by icklekitty; 07-09-2016 at 06:21 AM.

  13. #2713
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    It's well documented here. I don't think most cops are good. I think the job tends to attract a certain demographic--D student bullies. And they are taught to back each other no matter what. I think the good ones that want to make a difference and do the job correctly get suppressed by the system and I even linked a great article written by Serpico himself (in the Ferguson thread during the Brown murder) who also believes as much. If I can find it again, I'll throw it in here too.

    However, it's also been well documented that Dallas police have been working with BLM. I'm not "eye for an eye" in a broad sense but would I like it if the cops who murdered Brown, Rice, Sterling, Garner, Gray, etc were brought to justice...even killed? Would I like hearing someone beat George Zimmerman to death? Yeah. I would.

    Shorter version: Innocent for innocent isn't how I think it works. The guilty? That's more my speed as far as retribution goes.

    I have been saying it for years--the answer is a long and likely expensive process that involves changing the way we hire and monitor our police. Break up the blue wall. Weed out the shitty cops, prosecuting them when appropriate. Promote an honest culture--if you see something, SAY something. Stricter more detailed psych evaluations during hiring.

    http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...l#.V4EeZZA8KK3
    Last edited by Swykk; 07-09-2016 at 10:56 AM.

  14. #2714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Beach View Post
    Sorry for the anger, but I've legitimately been seeing some fucked up shit today on the internet, like people celebrating their deaths and wishing more cops would be killed. I've been biting my tongue for the whole day, so I kind of needed to unleash some frustration and I did t on the wrong person.
    Not to diminish the downright awful stupidity of these comments, but they actually happen every time a group lashes out at another. Twitter was filled with comments such as these back in November, same for Orlando.
    There are just people with nothing more to do than show just how edgy they are. And when it's The Man that bleeds, it's even worse. I've seen people cheering about attacks on firemen and ambulance men, guys whose sole purpose, whose only power is to save your goddamn ass. Doesn't matter, men of The Man, worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swykk View Post
    It's well documented here. I don't think most cops are good. I think the job tends to attract a certain demographic--D student bullies. And they are taught to back each other no matter what.
    More than anything I think that job just tends to break you. How long can you commute daily to meet the worst of humanity before you see the whole rest of the population as fucking animals ? Eventually it lead to a "Us vs Them" mentality.
    I'm not generalizing about the police here, merely extrapolating from conversations I had with cops in the past. And I honestly can't blame those who just become jaded, especially since psychological support is seen as a display of weakness and a fundamental failure to cope with the job. The way things are, you're seen as a better officer if you shut your mouth and loathe the people you're supposed to protect.
    Last edited by Khrz; 07-09-2016 at 09:34 AM.

  15. #2715
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khrz View Post
    How long can you commute daily to meet the worst of humanity
    Law deals with this. Medicine deals with this. And they do their JOBS. The difference with cops is that it's combined with power and a gun. Some of them get burned out. They don't take an oath to do no harm (medicine). They don't strive to uphold the Constitution (lawyers). This is why psych evaluations must be REQUIRED every 3 years. This is why an independent review board must be beyond the reach of the union contract and the Fraternal Order of Police. This is why better community training, including diversity, is needed.

    I saw a former cop on TV who said the "Us vs. Them" attitude was systemic in his department, TRIBAL, they respected NOBODY in any areas they covered, and they patted each other on the back for it. He said they did a drug raid on a house, several cops, and a family was in the house - children, an elderly grandma (black people) -and the person of interest was not there, but the cops started destoying the house, looking for evidence, in front of the family, and then one officer actually went into a corner and TOOK A SHIT ON THE CARPET while laughing; for no apparent reason other to further humiliate and destroy this poor family. The former officer telling the story said he resigned the next day.

    The Laquan McDonald case in Chicago: sure, one officer did that, but SEVERAL officers provided false reports that totally contradict the video evidence that everyone has seen in order to support that officer and now those officers are also being investigated by the USDOJ.

    And now the attorneys for the cop who shot McDonald are asking for McDonald's foster home records, arrest records, etc., obviously trying to paint a picture of his "troubled" past; because Van Dyke, the officer, is a magical soothesayer who knew all that and saw it flash before his eyes in his magic optical crystal ball before pumping 16 bullets into McDonald as he lie on the ground holding a 2" knife. They will show a jury that his life was worthless, anyway, so who cares?

    The Pres of the Chicago FOP recently spoke at a conference and many of his comments appeared in our Chicago papers: he COMPLAINED that the media is not treating police fairly, police are bummed out about how the public views them, blah blah blah. They are STILL taking the stance that NONE of these cops did ANYTHING wrong, ever. Not even the ones with over 35 citizen complaints against them, where they sent innocent people to the hospital for looking at them the wrong way. "Oh, you know, when you're a cop, people file false reports to get back at you." NO. NO THEY DON'T.
    Last edited by allegro; 07-09-2016 at 10:59 AM.

  16. #2716
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Law deals with this. Medicine deals with this. And they do their JOBS.
    In other comparable lines of work, I've only dealt with social workers (actually most of my brother's friends ended up either educating or counseling in that domain). Although they sometimes have a hard time not falling into that kind of trap, they manage to keep on having a somewhat positive outlook without being naive about it. But they tend to come from a more idealistic place, and they also have no way to abuse their position, no matter how frustrating the job becomes, no matter how powerless you can feel at times.

    Perhaps the main difference is that all those jobs actually demand that you take some sort of distance and try to see the bigger picture, have some perspective in order to do your job properly ?

  17. #2717
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    @allegro , it seems that everyone always wants to tell me that shit that happens in dallas is "nothing compared to" whatever else, constantly.
    But it just so happens that dfw is a massive metropolitan area, with six or seven million people and its own politics and corruption, distinct rhythm, and unique powder keg situation.
    And it's where i've spent the vast majority of my life. It's where my experiences have been.
    So therefore, i refer to it and view things through the lens of a dallasite.
    It exists, and shit DOES, in fact, happen there. It's something.

    I'm sorry. It's not just you. Other people too keep using those words, "it's nothing..."
    But it is, and it was, something. There are things that happen that have deeply affected the lives of people who live there (like me.)
    I have a couple of friends who are married to dallas cops.
    This incident, in fact, DID have a whole hell of a lot to do with them once the trigger was pulled.

    Furthermore, in a city with race relations as uniquely fucked up as dallas (which is pretty much TWO cities-north of the trinity and south, the south being damn near 100% black and gvmt policies continuing to favor the north,) i feel pretty certain that the track records and attitudes of that PARTICULAR police force crossed the mind of the shooter. I'm not saying it was the main reason, but i strongly doubt that the man's perception of the DPD was negligible in this case.

  18. #2718
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    @Khrz yup. I was in divorce law for a long time. OH MY GOD, people stoop to such low shit in divorce and use their kids as pawns, etc. I worked with criminal defense attorneys ... come ON, talk about having to step away. Doctors and nurses in medicine who have to fix gang members who've been shot, children who've been shot by gang members, etc.
    Last edited by allegro; 07-09-2016 at 11:06 AM.

  19. #2719
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    @elevenism The shooter had no police records at all, he was angry about what he saw on TV. EVERY city in this COUNTRY has this problem, the difference is you have not seen it everywhere else and the black community is not looking at one city or police force; if you read that Coates book, even HE says this is not really the fault of the police, that racism is racism, it's condoned, it's national, it's institutionalized...

    He writes about specific racial profiling, not the white stuff you are mixing in with this. Yes, hillbilly cops profile hippies, too, but this is drifting the thread as to why this guy joined BLACK POWER GROUPS and went rogue. Even BLM isn't condoning what he did. But what he did was sparked by:

    * Michael Brown
    * Eric Garner
    * Freddie Gray
    * Laquan McDonald
    * Tamir Rice
    * Anton Brown
    * Philando Castile

    The city in which Philando Castile was shot was two cities, blacks to the north and whites to the south. Chicago where Laquan McDonald lived is HEAVILY segregated with blacks and hispanics to the south and west, and whites everywhere else.

    HERE, SEE THIS.

    Here is a list of the top 9 most segregated cities in the country.

    I don't know that segregation necessarily contributes to accounts of minority police brutality because police forces like Detroit's have a lot of minority cops whereas Chicago's has a relatively small percentage and, again, racism and police brutality are two separate things that are combined but are not mutually exclusive. There was a big case in Chicago of a black sargeant who was going overboard with detainees, he shoved his gun into a black detainee's mouth but the cop was let go. In this case, however, we are talking about the KILLING of black people by cops.
    Last edited by allegro; 07-09-2016 at 02:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    ...according to that guy's Facebook page and his conversation with the DPD; he was out to shoot "white people, especially white cops" because of those incidents...
    Wow. For any person to give in to bigotry and hatred to the point of looking for profiled victims to murder, this is never a justifiable act. Many police officers and other law enforcement agents are standup people doing a complicated and sometimes unenviable work. Targeting police or anybody at all to be the victim of a racist hate crime is disgusting.

    The ideology and words of a decades old speech remain just as profound today, and hold application to all decent freedom loving people.

    “But there is something that I must say to my people, who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice: In the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again, we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.

    The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom.

    We cannot walk alone.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

  21. #2721
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    Amen to that, @Dr Channard . Amen to that.

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    I want to go back to Sarah K's #AllLivesMatter.. because this is true.. let's not forget that more white people than black people are killed by police.. it is true that if you go by the percentage of black people that make up the national population, a higher percentage of black people than white people are killed by cops.

    yes black people are being targeted more often and this has to stop. but actually ALL INNOCENT DEATHS by cops have to stop... regardless of race. the actual problem isn't race.. it's the police..

    it almost seems like if you are a cop you have a special card that you can play during your career called "KILL AN INNOCENT PERSON CONSEQUENCE FREE"..
    Last edited by cashpiles (closed); 07-09-2016 at 12:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khrz View Post
    No, Sallos isn't right. As you mentioned, the police force is an organized law enforcement group capable of analyzing their own behavior and control it, responsible for their own members, whether to protect them, or condemn them according to the law they enforce.
    Muslims aren't a function of society, there is no central authority, and they have no actual power.
    Quote Originally Posted by icklekitty View Post
    Exactly (and I agree with your comments overnight too @Khrz ). Racial groups (and other protected characteristics) are not institutions. You do not choose to be a racial group.
    holy shit people. If you are going to say that this type of attack on police should be expected, you are referring to what motivates people to do it. Do you REALLY think a person who decides to start shooting random cops is going to have this internal debate about what makes police a different classification than other groups? Are you for real?

    Well shit, let's take a look:
    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    This shit in Dallas has NOTHING to do with Dallas cops; it was in response to the recent police shootings of black people in the last few days according to that guy's Facebook page and his conversation with the DPD; he was out to shoot "white people, especially white cops" because of those incidents, which DIDN'T happen in Dallas but that didn't matter to him. This guy was an Army Reservist, hence the militarization of this shit. He didn't appear to have had any beef with the DPD, himself.
    Well damn... maybe the motivation of people who shoot cops ISN'T really any different than people who decided to shoot up a church full of black people, or a gay club, or a muslim church, or any other group of people.
    Last edited by DigitalChaos; 07-09-2016 at 12:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    Well damn... maybe the motivation of people who shoot cops ISN'T really any different than people who decided to shoot up a church full of black people, or a gay club, or a muslim church, or any other group of people.
    In this guy's case, no. I suspect, considering the guy did two Tours, he also had PTSD and this went far beyond what we are seeing at face value. If you look at the videos of him shooting, he was wearing military garb, he was taking military stances, he just snapped. And, unfortunately, now he has started copycats. But these copycats are shooting cops who pulled them over. At some level, I see this as like a woman who has been physically abused by her husband for decades and she finally reaches a breaking point and decides she won't take it anymore. Killing her husband is not the solution, but emotions are not always rational.
    Last edited by allegro; 07-09-2016 at 07:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cashpiles View Post
    it almost seems like if you are a cop you have a special card that you can play during your career called "KILL AN INNOCENT PERSON CONSEQUENCE FREE"..
    Yes, it sure does.

    The BLM vs ALM differentiation is important in the U.S. not because all lives do not matter but because of appropriation, which is common in our history. A movement starts and then that movement is misunderstood and/or is or appropriated by another slogan or hashtag or movement, (deliberately?) drowning out the original message and movement. In the case of minorities with little-to-no voice, this is especially important when their "black" message (intended to unify the black community against injustice) is brushed off and replaced with "all," thereby neutralizing the threat of their movement. Understand? ALM is to preserve the status quo, to prevent a minority uprising. Of COURSE, all lives matter. But ALM appropriates the BLM slogan and discounts their movement in one fell swoop.
    Last edited by allegro; 07-09-2016 at 01:46 PM.

  26. #2726
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    Quote Originally Posted by cashpiles View Post
    I want to go back to Sarah K's #AllLivesMatter.. because this is true.. let's not forget that more white people than black people are killed by police.. it is true that if you go by the percentage of black people that make up the national population, a higher percentage of black people than white people are killed by cops.

    yes black people are being targeted more often and this has to stop. but actually ALL INNOCENT DEATHS by cops have to stop... regardless of race. the actual problem isn't race.. it's the police..

    it almost seems like if you are a cop you have a special card that you can play during your career called "KILL AN INNOCENT PERSON CONSEQUENCE FREE"..
    Okay, this has me curious. So if we completely eliminate race from the equation, looking at every man, woman, and child as simply a U.S. citizen, based on the actual numbers of innocent deaths by the police, what is the statistical likelihood that an average citizen will have their life wrongfully ended by the police? I really have no clue, and wouldn’t know where to look.

    Someone who’s better than me at numbers could probably come up with a good ballpark figure I’m sure. I’m just now curious as to how common of an issue this is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    holy shit people. If you are going to say that this type of attack on police should be expected, you are referring to what motivates people to do it. Do you REALLY think a person who decides to start shooting random cops is going to have this internal debate about what makes police a different classification than other groups?
    No he's just a consequence of it. That's how institutionalisation works. In the same way that nobody wakes up and goes "hey I think I'm going to be racist today!" My point was that police neglect of such an epidemic was going to result in this kind of action. Animosity, frustration, fear, and anger, and effectively snapping, does not necessarily mean a calculated target. As @allegro says he snapped. And I was absolutely going to make that battered wife analogy myself.

    From what I've read of your posts over the last few months @DigitalChaos you seem to lack a serious degree of empathy and understanding of the micromechanics of society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Channard View Post
    Okay, this has me curious. So if we completely eliminate race from the equation, looking at every man, woman, and child as simply a U.S. citizen, based on the actual numbers of innocent deaths by the police, what is the statistical likelihood that an average citizen will have their life wrongfully ended by the police? I really have no clue, and wouldn’t know where to look.

    Someone who’s better than me at numbers could probably come up with a good ballpark figure I’m sure. I’m just now curious as to how common of an issue this is.
    just do a google search with "police killings by race" or something along those lines

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    Quote Originally Posted by icklekitty View Post
    No he's just a consequence of it.
    Just


    this is the best one yet. We are on to straight justification of killing people now. But I'm the one lacking empathy...

    Shooting up a black church, JUST a consequence of racism.

    Shooting up a gay club, JUST a consequence of bigotry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cashpiles View Post
    just do a google search with "police killings by race" or something along those lines
    The problem is that we have not been keeping records. Seriously. The police in any department across the country have not been required to report their data until a law was passed by Congress in 2014 but that did not go into affect into 2015, and police record-keeping takes a while to be compiled. So the "online" data you see is not official data. Just because you Google it doesn't mean it's real; many are gathered by news agencies or by statistical agencies, but none so far are official national records.

    SEE THIS ARTICLE.

    A fairer analysis, at ProPublica, found that black males aged 15 to 19 were 21 times more likely to be killed by police than white males in that age group. And The Washington Post reports that unarmed black men were seven times more likely to be killed by police this year than unarmed white men.

    The point of the “Black Lives Matter” movement is not that the lives of African Americans matter more than those of white Americans, but that they matter equally, and that historically they have been treated as though they do not.

    And yes, for the record, it is troubling to hear anyone chant slogans calling for violence against police officers as a small number of people did recently outside the Minnesota State Fair.

    But consider what Ta-Nehisi Coates, a columnist for The Atlantic, wrote about the rioting that erupted in Baltimore earlier this year after Freddie Gray died in police custody. At the time, many public figures called for calm, and said that quiet protest was the best response.

    “When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself,” Mr. Coates wrote. “When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is ‘correct’ or ‘wise,’ any more than a forest fire can be ‘correct’ or ‘wise.’ Wisdom isn’t the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.”

    Our columnist Charles Blow wrote at the time that one could argue that the rage of blacks in Baltimore “was misdirected, that most of the harm done was to the social fabric and the civil and economic interests in the very neighborhoods that most lack them. You would be right. But misdirected rage is not necessarily illegitimate rage.”
    From the above Pro Publica article:

    Our examination involved detailed accounts of more than 12,000 police homicides stretching from 1980 to 2012 contained in the FBI's Supplementary Homicide Report. The data, annually self-reported by hundreds of police departments across the country, confirms some assumptions, runs counter to others, and adds nuance to a wide range of questions about the use of deadly police force.

    Colin Loftin, University at Albany professor and co-director of the Violence Research Group, said the FBI data is a minimum count of homicides by police, and that it is impossible to precisely measure what puts people at risk of homicide by police without more and better records. Still, what the data shows about the race of victims and officers, and the circumstances of killings, are "certainly relevant," Loftin said.

    "No question, there are all kinds of racial disparities across our criminal justice system," he said. "This is one example."

    The FBI's data has appeared in news accounts over the years, and surfaced again with the August killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. To a great degree, observers and experts lamented the limited nature of the FBI's reports. Their shortcomings are inarguable.

    The data, for instance, is terribly incomplete. Vast numbers of the country's 17,000 police departments don't file fatal police shooting reports at all, and many have filed reports for some years but not others. Florida departments haven't filed reports since 1997 and New York City last reported in 2007. Information contained in the individual reports can also be flawed. Still, lots of the reporting police departments are in larger cities, and at least 1000 police departments filed a report or reports over the 33 years.

    There is, then, value in what the data can show while accepting, and accounting for, its limitations. Indeed, while the absolute numbers are problematic, a comparison between white and black victims shows important trends. Our analysis included dividing the number of people of each race killed by police by the number of people of that race living in the country at the time, to produce two different rates: the risk of getting killed by police if you are white and if you are black.

    David Klinger, a University of Missouri-St. Louis professor and expert on police use of deadly force, said racial disparities in the data could result from "measurement error," meaning that the unreported killings could alter ProPublica's findings.

    However, he said the disparity between black and white teenage boys is so wide, "I doubt the measurement error would account for that."

    ProPublica spent weeks digging into the many rich categories of information the reports hold: the race of the officers involved; the circumstances cited for the use of deadly force; the age of those killed.

    Who Gets Killed?

    The finding that young black men are 21 times as likely as their white peers to be killed by police is drawn from reports filed for the years 2010 to 2012, the three most recent years for which FBI numbers are available.

    The black boys killed can be disturbingly young. There were 41 teens 14 years or younger reported killed by police from 1980 to 2012 ii. 27 of them were black iii; 8 were white iv; 4 were Hispanic v and 1 was Asian vi.

    That's not to say officers weren't killing white people. Indeed, some 44 percent of all those killed by police across the 33 years were white.

    White or black, though, those slain by police tended to be roughly the same age. The average age of blacks killed by police was 30. The average age of whites was 35.

    Who is killing all those black men and boys?

    Mostly white officers. But in hundreds of instances, black officers, too. Black officers account for a little more than 10 percent of all fatal police shootings. Of those they kill, though, 78 percent were black.

    White officers, given their great numbers in so many of the country's police departments, are well represented in all categories of police killings. White officers killed 91 percent of the whites who died at the hands of police. And they were responsible for 68 percent of the people of color killed. Those people of color represented 46 percent of all those killed by white officers.

    What were the circumstances surrounding all these fatal encounters?

    There were 151 instances in which police noted that teens they had shot dead had been fleeing or resisting arrest at the time of the encounter. 67 percent of those killed in such circumstances were black. That disparity was even starker in the last couple of years: of the 15 teens shot fleeing arrest from 2010 to 2012, 14 were black.

    Did police always list the circumstances of the killings? No, actually, there were many deadly shooting where the circumstances were listed as "undetermined." 77 percent of those killed in such instances were black.

    Certainly, there were instances where police truly feared for their lives.

    Of course, although the data show that police reported that as the cause of their actions in far greater numbers after the 1985 Supreme Court decision that said police could only justify using deadly force if the suspects posed a threat to the officer or others. From 1980 to 1984, "officer under attack" was listed as the cause for 33 percent of the deadly shootings. Twenty years later, looking at data from 2005 to 2009, "officer under attack" was cited in 62 percent xxxvii of police killings.

    Does the data include cases where police killed people with something other than a standard service handgun?

    Yes, and the Los Angeles Police Department stood out in its use of shotguns. Most police killings involve officers firing handguns xl. But from 1980 to 2012, 714 involved the use of a shotgun xli. The Los Angeles Police Department has a special claim on that category. It accounted for 47 cases xlii in which an officer used a shotgun. The next highest total came from the Dallas Police Department: 14
    Last edited by allegro; 07-09-2016 at 02:21 PM.

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