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  1. #2551
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    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...nesses-report/

    This kind of stuff does not happen over here, what is going on?

  2. #2552
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    .... wow
    at least he actually admits it, i guess.
    What a great idea, do away with due process... the thing that creates sanctity around law... so that you can create more law? what a perfectly logical plan! /s ... fuck these people.


  3. #2553
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    What a great idea, do away with due process... the thing that creates sanctity around law... so that you can create more law? what a perfectly logical plan! /s ... fuck these people.
    Look, due process is a buzzword that's often just a lot of bullshit, anyway. As I stated, before: Do you honestly think that these Federal judges who issue orders allowing search and seizures on terrorists ask "okay, what evidence do you have that they might be a terrorist?" LOL LOL LOL!!! Truth: They just stamp the fucking order and say "have a nice day" with full trust of the Feds. The only reason people are screaming about the negative aspect of due process is the DELAY because the Federal courts are so overcrowded that we're not even filing real paper documents, anymore, we're E-FILING pretty much everything (by REQUIREMENT) and if you have to go before a judge that just takes more time, and the FBI is actually MORE lenient with these types of people than judges probably would be, because the FBI is swamped, too, that's why this shooter in Orlando was dropped off the FBI list; they just didn't have time to track that guy.

    Meanwhile, do you have ANY idea how many men have been sitting in Cook County Jail for fucking YEARS waiting for an an indictment? AN INDICTMENT? They haven't even been fucking CHARGED, yet, and they're sitting in jail for fucking TWO YEARS because the court system is so fucking jammed up? MANY are sitting in CCJ for TWO YEARS waiting for their "speedy trial" because they are poor and can't afford to bond out. THAT is lack of due process, NOT "oh, I might not be able to get a gun because I'm on a list incorrectly because of the Feds."
    Last edited by allegro; 06-17-2016 at 02:24 PM.

  4. #2554
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    100% w/ @allegro here. The idea of the sanctity of "due process" is a farce, and if that was the central concern here we'd be very distracted with talking about more egregious cases where people's rights have been violated.

    This has always been a hangup for me, and I guess there's not much I can say as a real argument, but I don't know why the distinction here between "right" and "privilege" is so desperately defined when it comes to guns. I get it, the constitution calls it a right. Surely there's some people here who are more squarely educated on legal history, but when did we start clarifying what is a privilege and what is a right?

    We don't have a huge hang up on preventing people from obtaining a driver's license based on a multitude of factors, and I presume this is because we've always defined that as a privilege, which we can arbitrarily revoke if we feel like it. If you don't pass a written test, followed by an actual test... This needs to be updated and verified through a government institution.

    Now there's got to be some people in here who know more about guns than I do... I've never tried to buy one. I've shot guns at targets, but there was never any procedure that I went through to make sure I was properly trained or informed, so I'm not sure completely if I'm getting this right... but I could just walk down to a gun shop, tell them that I wanted a semi-automatic rifle, and after they did the whole background check thing (which takes a few days right?) I could get my gun, and then buy as much ammo as I wanted?

    I've never committed a violent crime. I've got a clean criminal record.
    I still have no fucking idea how to properly handle a firearm, and I'm just going to say that nobody who goes through severe bouts of the kind of crippling depression that I tend to go through should be allowed to buy a goddamn gun. I'm pretty sure I'd pass the background check all the same.

    The private business that would be selling me the gun doesn't know a thing about me. They don't know if I know how to not accidentally blow my head off, or how inclined I might be to intentionally do so.

    There's various other conditions that will prevent you from getting a driver's license (and not to mention that you need insurance on you at all times if you're actually going to drive anywhere). Like... you can't get a driver's license if you're blind, right? What about chronic narcolepsy? I don't know, I actually really don't, but why do we make it so much easier to buy a fucking gun than to get just the permission to drive a car?

    They investigate you more if you're applying to save and adopt a pet from an animal shelter. If you want to pick up a dog, they'll check you out.

    Why is it so much harder to adopt a pet, or practically do anything in the world that implies even the smallest amount of responsibility, than it is to just jog out and buy a high powered gun? Is it because the founding fathers fucked up by calling it a "right?" Maybe they weren't clairvoyant enough to predict how crazy guns would get? Was there a legal distinction between a privilege and a right when the constitution was penned?

    Either way, yes, if you've shown up on the FBI's radar repeatedly for possible links to terror organizations and you suddenly run out to buy a military style rifle and tons of ammo, yeah, fuck your due process when it comes to the gun thing. Sorry. I guess I just view some rights as being more important than others. The constitution wasn't written by god. It was written by people who didn't know that one day cars would exist, so they forgot to write in a thing about the right to drive a car.

  5. #2555
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    Yeah, due process is being trampled in many situations... so let's just completely forget about it! What a great idea! /s

    Even the ACLU is pissed about this and they have been fighting no fly lists for years. https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-free...oples-freedoms

    You don't just forfeit the entire idea. Not if you want people to actually respect the law. This is the kind of stupidity that keeps me in the side of opposition. Too many people are ready to give in under situations they are sympathetic to without concern for the implications. I have no desire to side with a populace who is WILLING to dispose of fundamentals like due process.

  6. #2556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    This has always been a hangup for me, and I guess there's not much I can say as a real argument, but I don't know why the distinction here between "right" and "privilege" is so desperately defined
    If you are convicted of a felony and are on probation, you can't vote. Voting is a right but you lose that right while on probation. See also losing your gun rights via the Lautenberg Amendment, which was upheld by the SCOTUS in 2014.

    I was a card-carrying money-contributing member of the ACLU from the time I was 18 years old for about 20 years but they lost me when they started bitching about metal detectors in Chicago public schools and laws protecting women from revenge porn. Bye bye ACLU.

    No, sorry, you can't protect ALL rights all the time; just like yelling "FIRE" in a crowded building is not protected by free speech, our rights are not unilaterally protected. We have rights like due process when it comes to things like being arrested or a speedy trial or search and seizure (except when it comes to metal detectors and the overall safety of everyone and non-invasive), but when it comes to purchasing a weapon of war: Nah. Don't think so.

    When one person's "right" potentially endangers or harms somebody else, sorry, the former's right isn't really a right. The 2nd Amendment clearly states "well-regulated" and that does not equal right to due process all the time.

    That same 14th Amendment says: nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-17-2016 at 02:44 PM.

  7. #2557
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    How many of you are aware that the FBI is instantly notified when someone even applies to buy a gun who is on the watch list?

  8. #2558
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    How many of you are aware that the FBI is instantly notified when someone even applies to buy a gun who is on the watch list?
    So I guess they fucked up pretty bad this time?

  9. #2559
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    How many of you are aware that the FBI is instantly notified when someone even applies to buy a gun who is on the watch list?
    So? Who cares? So what is the FBI gonna do, jump up and go have dinner over there? Maybe they are, they probably aren't, who fucking cares. There are MILLIONS of us in the country and I have had A SHIT TON of dealings with the FBI over the last 30 years and I know a lot of them have way too much shit to do to be bothered by most shit, that's why nothing gets done. John Lennon was on the FBI list for a long time, and it didn't seem to change his life span at all. You'd think if they were tracking him, they would have been able to stop that asshole outside the Dakota.

    I think it is GOOD if you are on a watch list and the FBI is notified. If only the FBI would be smart enough for this to work, or for them to DO anything. Hint: They need to fix that, they're too busy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    So I guess they fucked up pretty bad this time?
    They took that Orlando guy off the watch list because they didn't think he was a threat. Wait, wuh? I thought they put everybody, even Pastor George, on the watch list. (snort) Now how can Pastor George buy that Uzi for deer hunting? It's not fair, I tell you, not fair. Poor Pastor George is a terrible shot, he has to spray the forest with bullets to shoot deer.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-22-2016 at 09:56 AM.

  10. #2560
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    So I guess they fucked up pretty bad this time?
    hindsight is always 20/20, so who knows.

    Orlando shooter went through multiple background checks as part of his job for carrying a gun. He went through 2 FBI investigations and was removed from the watchlist. Apparently, a store turned him away after he tried to buy armor and bulk ammo. They apparently immediately called the FBI too.

    We are also talking about the government who's background check system (NICS) has had a ridiculous hole in it since it was put into place. A fake ID that a highschooler can get is enough to bypass NICS with 100% success rate. It was flagged as an issue back in 2001 and hasn't been fixed. Nobody wants to address that though, they just want to pile more shit on top of that system and pretend it keeps everyone safe.



    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    So? Who cares? So what is the FBI gonna do, jump up and go have dinner over there? The FBI has been to my house, I've been to an FBI office, they've taken my mug shot and finger prints, I don't sit around going "GEE, I wonder if the FBI is following me." Maybe they are, they probably aren't, who fucking cares. There are MILLIONS of us in the country and I have had A SHIT TON of dealings with the FBI over the last 30 years and I know a lot of them have way too much shit to do to be bothered by most shit, that's why nothing gets done.
    Actually, yea.... that notification typically increases surveillance on the suspect.

  11. #2561
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    Yeah, due process is being trampled in many situations... so let's just completely forget about it! What a great idea! /s

    Even the ACLU is pissed about this and they have been fighting no fly lists for years. https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-free...oples-freedoms

    You don't just forfeit the entire idea. Not if you want people to actually respect the law. This is the kind of stupidity that keeps me in the side of opposition. Too many people are ready to give in under situations they are sympathetic to without concern for the implications. I have no desire to side with a populace who is WILLING to dispose of fundamentals like due process.
    No, it's more like... outside of an episode of the Sopranos, nobody has ever NEEDED an AR-15 and a thousand rounds of ammo stat. We cheapen our other rights when we pretend that our "right to run out and buy an AR-15" is just as precious as the right to free speech.

    Also, regarding your point there, he also apparently was reported to the FBI five weeks ago for trying to buy body armor and thousands of rounds of ammo... and for acting really weird and suspicious... but they had a shitty camera and couldn't ID the guy in the video and so they just said "oh well" and walked away. How about that? If you sell high powered guns, you need to have a camera running in your shop at all times that wasn't manufactured prior to 1987?
    Last edited by Jinsai; 06-17-2016 at 02:50 PM.

  12. #2562
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    Actually, yea.... that notification typically increases surveillance on the suspect.
    Fine. Whatever. And when it's determined that nothing is going on, the surveillance is stopped, just like it was with the Orlando guy. This isn't like in the fucking movies, the FBI doesn't have an unlimited budget with guys in vans sitting around in the suburbs eating donuts doing nothing. It's how this Orlando guy was questioned, they only determined he was mental but not a terrorist, and they scratched him off their list.

  13. #2563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    No, it's more like... outside of an episode of the Sopranos, nobody has ever NEEDED an AR-15 and a thousand rounds of ammo stat. We cheapen our other rights when we pretend that our "right to run out and buy an AR-15" is just as precious as the right to free speech.
    EXACTLY. A work friend of Gs was on Facebook saying he is glad he has his AR-15 to "protect his family" and one of the guy's friends said, "Oh, George, you are so brave" and G commented "brave? He lives in fucking GLENVIEW! He could defend his family with a SUPERSOAKER. NOTHING ever happens in Glenview. Robberies happen during the day when nobody is home." Why the fuck these guy's first weapon of choice for home protection is an AR-15? Simple: Dick extension. I've held one, it's a GI Joe toy, it shoots a fucking MILE, you'll shoot into your neighbor's HOUSE for fuck's sake, it's a TERRIBLE choice for home protection (unless you are the world's worst shooter). I've shot at target practice since 1987, and I would never use one of the fucking military GI Joe guns for home protection, they're just fucking stupid. They're just fucking stupid all the way around, and anybody who defends them just wants to keep their toy. When I see Special Forces guys saying they're dumb home weapons, I rest my case.

    If the NICS has holes in it, the "solution" isn't to drop the NICS; the "solution" is to FIX THE FUCKING NICS.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-17-2016 at 03:08 PM.

  14. #2564
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    @Jinsai - ok, so its one opportunity that didn't pan out, muck like the rest. The general point is that this level of scrutiny he received is WAY more than a mere background check would produce. He was also pulled off the watchlist.

    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Fine. Whatever. And when it's determined that nothing is going on, the surveillance is stopped, just like it was with the Orlando guy. This isn't like in the fucking movies, the FBI doesn't have an unlimited budget with guys in vans sitting around in the suburbs eating donuts doing nothing. It's how this Orlando guy was questioned, they only determined he was mental but not a terrorist, and they scratched him off their list.
    Exactly. So how are we going to have any hope of properly evaluating every person buying a gun who might possibly maybe do something bad if we don't have the resources for a much more narrow group of targets to examine?


    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    If the NICS has holes in it, the "solution" isn't to drop the NICS; the "solution" is to FIX THE FUCKING NICS.
    Which of the heroic gun control proponents is trying to fix it? I've seen nothing. It's been in place since 1998. It's always some stupid shit thrown at the wall in an emotional effort. You are ready to toss foundational freedoms and legal structures away before there is a demonstration of capacity to actually do anything productive. Fix the shit that's in place first. Demand that your legislature have a basic education around the issue they claim to be fixing. I speak for a lot of the "gun community" in saying that the current pattern of gun control attempts will be continually met with opposition and near-instant mechanisms to legally undermine anything that actually passes. Most of the gun community has given up trying to talk to the advocates who just yell for "do something, anything" legislation because there is no point. Portions of the gun community has spent their effort getting many steps ahead of the gun control advocates.

  15. #2565
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    Which of the heroic gun control proponents is trying to fix it? I've seen nothing.
    Without a national database in place (it was declared unconstitutional by a conservative SCOTUS), why bother? Until a national database is established, it's pretty useless. Right now, individual states are trying to handle the data. But a national data-sharing database is crucial so that, say, somebody with an Order of Protection against them can't be barred from purchasing guns and ammo in one state but can buy guns and ammo in another state; or can buy same in a "private sale." NO laws can prevent every single situation, and it makes me pissed when any side points at "what about" situations; laws are an attempt to prevent; we in law know that laws cannot totally stop anything.

    It's been shown, repeatedly, that the "gun community" is becoming a minority in the face of these increasing shootings and your side is going to be outnumbered. Better get ready. There is a difference between sane gun owners who believe in realistic gun restrictions (e.g. no "assault weapons" and taking the words "well regulated" literally, as does the SCOTUS), and there are those gun owners who believe in the absolute unhindered right to own a rocket launcher because "right to bear arms" means "everything."
    Last edited by allegro; 06-17-2016 at 03:43 PM.

  16. #2566
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    NO laws can prevent every single situation, and it makes me pissed when any side points at "what about" situations; laws are an attempt to prevent; we in law know that laws cannot totally stop anything.
    yea.... so why is it that EVERY shooting situation we get legislation pushed that wouldn't have stopped that legislation. If your fallacy were true, then the pattern wouldn't be near absolute; we would actually see proposals that would have stopped the instigating shooting.

  17. #2567
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    yea.... so why is it that EVERY shooting situation we get legislation pushed that wouldn't have stopped that legislation. If your fallacy were true, then the pattern wouldn't be near absolute; we would actually see proposals that would have stopped the instigating shooting.
    What about this? That's one step forward. Again, the FBI should have been able to "stop" this shooting had they had a program in place to better profile people than they do now. They suck at it. They really do. I'm not joking. They need to take lessons from Israel, although Israel's biggest problem is rockets being launched at it. As I have stated before, our very freedoms and rights are often the things that put us in danger. It's a price we pay.

    For instance, on the form that you fill out to obtain a gun in most states, it asks you about your mental health. Do we really expect that people with mental illness will fill that in honestly? "oh, yes, I have been really depressed, lately, I am on 4 different drugs for my mental health and my doctor believes I am a danger to society, and any of these would raise a giant red flag for gun purchases." Um, really, they'll just check NO. What really should happen, which of course is a violation of patient privacy laws, is if a mental health doctor reports information to an agency, so it would prevent anybody in that household from purchasing a firearm, e.g. Adam Lanza's mother. Or James Holmes. Etc. Etc. Etc.

    NO law can COMPLETELY STOP anything (just like robbery laws don't STOP robberies, or murder laws don't STOP murders, or even capital punishment doesn't STOP anything). But we put these laws in place because it has the potential to slow the rate of these crimes, and also because we are a civilized society and that's what laws are for.

    We put seat belts in cars, we are requiring backup cameras in all cars by 2018, we raised the drinking age, we HAVE a drinking age ... none of these 100% "prevent" anything, but we still have laws.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-17-2016 at 04:00 PM.

  18. #2568
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    um, what are the actual laws you are referring to? you linked to a long ass article about a filibuster with vague references to gun control.

  19. #2569
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    um, what are the actual laws you are referring to? you linked to a long ass article about a filibuster with vague references to gun control.
    The filibuster was to push for voting on a bunch of proposals, both Dem and Repub, slated for this Monday. Not yet "laws" (laws don't instantly become laws; nobody in Congress does anything fast, they're slower than the second coming of Christ).

    Ultimately, though, it will be Homeland Security that will be what changes this around; they can spin anything to be Homeland Security and everybody loses all rights, ala the NSA, the Patriot Act, Gitmo, anything, and if anybody complains, the Star Spangled Banner begins to play and the members of Congress line up and start humming, hand held over their chest and facing Old Glory, and any "due process" is what is lost in the interest of the U.S. of A. and making America Great Again (tm) and Homeland Security and protecting our Great Citizens of this Country, and it gives them an excuse for their hillbilly redneck constituents who will be right in line behind them with Toby Keith, and if anybody complains, they'll be labeled a crazy liberal hippy who isn't an American and VOILA: lots more gun control, banned guns, the whole shebang.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-18-2016 at 12:38 AM.

  20. #2570
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    so it's universal background checks and blocking purchases for anyone on a terror watchlist

    universal background checks - orlando shooter went through multiple background checks. the checks were more thorough than what a proposed UBC would be.
    blocking purchases for terror watchlist - again, this guy was actually pulled off the list before he bought the guns. right? how many mass shootings happened with a shooter who was on that list? Why isn't this something that is known before people are ready to start throwing away due process?

    So that follows the pattern: proposals that would have not stopped the incident. Every single time. What does that mean? It means every single shooting incident that spawns a wave of "OMG DO SOMETHING" legislation will continue. It means you are constantly using a specific type of incident to promote legislation that has a separate purpose. The claims that no law can completely stop something or that laws have potential are completely irrelevant if the propose laws NEVER have influence.

  21. #2571
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    from that linked article:

    Cornyn has a similar bill, that contains more protections for gun owners in Republicans’ view. He has also revised his bill so it covers people who have been under terror investigations within the last five years, according to an aide, which would have covered Omar Mateen, the shooter in the Orlando massacre who was probed by the FBI in 2013 and 2014.

    Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/0...#ixzz4Bt7MYr2a
    Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook

  22. #2572
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    or how about this.... if you've EVER been investigated for having terrorist ties, we don't need to keep watching and monitoring you... but your name is put into a database that will loudly PING! when you apply to purchase a military grade gun. Fuck it, it'll still ping if you buy a gun. At this point, we don't rush in and give you a cavity search, but we check in for a moment and see what you're up to.

    Fuck it.. I think EVERYONE should be given a customary evaluation when they want to buy a military style gun. We should just check-in and make sure that you're sane, and that you don't have your schizophrenic son hanging around, etc. But the system should PING! a little louder if you've been investigated for possible terrorist communique. It should PING! louder if you have been investigated twice. Louder still if you've beaten your ex-wife (ping ping) and she filed for divorce, accused you of being mentally unstable (ping ping ping), and that you went to special schools because you were too much of a spaz to handle regular schooling (ping). If your co-workers quit because they're scared of your terror-affiliated rants (ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping), and it's not just one fucking guy, but many people who work with you who have accused you with (piiiiiiiiiiiing), uh, ok.

    Now, since in my version of what is sensible, we have a legal requirement that any shop selling guns has a MODERN HI DEF CAMERA constantly recording people who approach the counter of your shop... and so when you walk in and try to purchase exotic body armor and thousands of rounds of ammo (PING!), well, we can send that video to the FBI with an automated keystroke, and hopefully this fucking disaster wouldn't have happened.

    This guy apparently posted threats on behalf of terror groups on Facebook days before the attacks were carried out. The writing on the wall does NOT get clearer than this. I am not a fan of our wild mindless spying, but what I'm suggesting is not some Minority Report shit. It's a computerized collection of damning evidence.
    Last edited by Jinsai; 06-17-2016 at 11:06 PM.

  23. #2573
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    Well yeah and this Orlando shooter told his current wife that he was going to do this (and was TEXTING HER during the attack), and she tried to talk him out of it BUT SHE DIDN'T ALERT AUTHORITIES. PING PING PING NO GUN FOR YOU . Now the wife is missing.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-22-2016 at 05:13 PM.

  24. #2574
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    @allegro - ok, that's definitely the first time I have ever seen a proposal that actually would have impacted the shooting that triggered it. I still think there are huge due process issues with it, and I question how many other shootings it would have ever impacted. But here is a follow up question: would this guy have gotten weapons anyway? He already had handguns as part of his job...
    @Jinsai - god damn man, you sound like the stereotypical writer of gun control. What the hell is a "military grade gun"??? The AR-15 (which actually isnt what the orlando shooter had) is designed for civilian use.

    And for the sake of brevity, here is an image that further explain the problem with "military grade gun"


  25. #2575
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    @Jinsai - god damn man, you sound like the stereotypical writer of gun control. What the hell is a "military grade gun"??? The AR-15 (which actually isnt what the orlando shooter had) is designed for civilian use.
    http://time.com/4371452/orlando-shoo...vilian-family/

  26. #2576
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    If it shoots more than 10 bullets: buh bye.

    Also, ban anything shooting bullets that big.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    The AR-15 is designed for civilian use.
    Not originally.

    SEE ALSO.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-18-2016 at 12:55 AM.

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    Since I've given up on the idea of us actually discussing the whole LGBTQ aspect of what happened entirely...

    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    If it shoots more than 10 bullets: buh bye.

    Also, ban anything shooting bullets that big.
    Shotgun slugs used to hunt deer are much bigger.

    Also saying "if it shoots more than 10 bullets" is nonsense. For one because that is often determined by the clip you own, not the gun itself. Also, because NY state already has a ban on clips that hold more than 10 rounds. Pretty sure that hasn't done anything to change gun-related deaths at all. All it's done is made me go out and buy new magazines for my guns because my old ones are illegal.
    Why stop at 10? What makes 11 bullets scarier than 10?

  28. #2578
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    Oh jesus christ this is entirely semantic and we can dive into the specific of the history and what is on the market today. But it will change nothing in what I am asking you. I've built them from scratch. I'm extremely aware of what they are. So I ask again, what constitutes a "military grade gun"??

    allegro - so now it's military grade magazines? and wtf... "bullets that big" ... thats one of the smallest rounds! Almost every single popular handgun round is bigger than a .223 round.

  29. #2579
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    I have a .22 revolver and a .357 revolver so, to me, anything beyond that is ... no pun intended ... overkill.

    Military grade meaning the AR-15 and coinciding .223 round was designed, by its designer, strictly for the military, was originally used by the military, and the full-auto version is the M-16. But I didn't use the term military grade. And, of course, I mean magazines. I've been target shooting since you were in grade school.

    I think even GLOCKS should be outlawed. I used to have a 9mm semi-automatic that held 9 rounds, there is no reason for 30 rounds unless you want to play Rambo.

    I'm probably getting a semi-automatic 9mm again; my brother wants my .22 (he hates spending so much money at the range on ammo for his .38).

    As far as bullet size goes ...



    Joe Biden is right (and so was my daddy): a shotgun is the best form of home defense
    Last edited by allegro; 06-18-2016 at 03:21 AM.

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    I think @allegro called it out for what it is though.. it seems to me like a dick extension. Maybe you say to people who ask why this form of gun is showing up as so popular in mass shootings is because it's just big and scary looking. I'm equally scared of both of the guns in that picture you posted up there. I know they'll both kill the fuck out of me.

    My brother is a libertarian, and he likes the guns a lot. I asked him about the AR-15, and why is it such a big deal. This is what he said.

    The AR-15 is, in many shooter's opinions, the best (and consequently most popular) rifle design of all time. I'm pretty sure that the AR-15 is the most popular type of rifle sold in the United States today. So that's why they are so upset when outright bans come up. But here's the thing, the AR-15 isn't really much different than any other auto loader out there


    Trust me, he's really into this shit. He thinks there's something super awesome about it that you're not owning up to. But he brings up the point that functionally it's not that different than other "auto loaders" out there. This is a class of gun.

    I think you're making a straw man out of the "no more semi autos" stance with your comparison above, just like I think you're underselling the reason people fetishize the AR-15.

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