Random General Headlines

[Jinsai]

Yes. But she's also super young. People learn and evolve. My political views most certainly don't match what I believed in middle school and high school.

Seems like she's still figuring it out.

[Sarah K]

I think that's where most people are in their twenties.

Hell, I hope to never have my political ideals "figured out". To me, that implies a lack of growth and the rejection of new knowledge.

Also of note is that she's very religious. So that can explain her one time affiliation with SP.

[Jinsai]

I think that's where most people are in their twenties.

Hell, I hope to never have my political ideals "figured out". To me, that implies a lack of growth and the rejection of new knowledge.

Also of note is that she's very religious. So that can explain her one time affiliation with SP.

I'm going to duck out of the aspect of her religious extremism, since that's a general hornet's nest for me... and even her Tea Party support which is probably a product of that.

If you're going to jump on stage and sabotage a political speech, you hopefully have a point that you've put a lot of thought into and it had better be important to you if you're going to assume to represent a political activism movement. I don't think some young kid fresh off the Palin bandwagon should be condescending to anyone, and maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm just going to assume she has no fucking idea what Bernie Sanders stands for.

I'm sure there's plenty of shows who would like to conduct an interview with her at this point... and the greatest good that she could do her cause now is to sit down and answer some questions about how informed she is, and what she thinks of Bernie's politics. I thought it was strange at first when she was calling out progressives as being particularly racist, but given that she's recently reeling from Palin-level tea-party affiliation, her confusion makes a lot more sense.

If she has a point to make, she's got a pulpit. If she doesn't stand up and clarify it, fuck her.

[allegro]

and the person who sabotaged Bernie's speech in Seattle was a Palin supporter?

am I reading this right?

Yes, that's what @Mantra posted above my above-linked video. It's worse:

Johnson is also a member of a group called Outside Agitators 206, a movement within the larger Black Lives Matter movement, based out of Seattle. Unfortunately, they don’t appear to hold the same goals as the larger movement and actually made a public statement declaring their intent was to “declare war on the Democratic Party“. The full statement reads

To succeed, the Black Lives Matter Movement must transform the politics of Black America. By definition, that means declaring war on the Democratic Party, and forcing Black politicians and activists to choose between the Party and the people’s struggle.

As usual, the Democrats will try to make Black people more angry at the terminally racist Republican Party than at the police and local administration of their (typically) Democrat-run city. Hillary Clinton is already making noises of empathy with Blacks suffering under the urban police state. However, the Black Lives Matter movement has no institutional stake in the victory of either party, but is, in fact, locked in mortal political struggle with other Black people in the Democratic Party. These Black Democrats will insist on a truce, a cessation of agitation against national or local Democrats, until after the election.

The inherent divisiveness in that message leads one to continue to question whether or not the interruption on the stage was actually aimed at pushing forward the Black Lives Matter mantra, or whether it was done for the purposes of waging war against the Democratic Party. Those two end-goals do not seem to be in congruence with one another and until a public statement is brought forward by the Black Lives Matter movement concerning the dichotomy of both organizations there will continue to be controversy over the incident in Seattle.

[Jinsai]

This is just further proof that every good movement will be met with resistance from within its ranks, from people who think it should be directed differently, from people who have no idea what the hell is going on... and then these people will fuck it up. Hopefully someone can reign this bullshit in.

It's the same thing I was saying about the Cecil the Lion extrapolation, where vegans are suddenly attacking people for eating chicken because they ventured to say that trophy hunting sucks.

Maybe the most essential thing a movement needs is someone who can firmly say "FUCK OFF" to all the people who try to co-opt it. I don't know where it's coming from, but the idea of directing the BLM movement to "declare war on the Democratic party" because their politicians are making impotent "noises of empathy" is derailing the cause entirely. Yes, call out Hillary for her stupid "all lives matter" gaff, clarify it... but understand who your allies ultimately are.

and Bernie Sanders? It's sad that this disruption has resulted in people saying things like "He's on YOUR side" because that makes it sound ludicrously pandering. But it's true if you take it face value. Bernie was getting arrested for campaigning for civil rights when he was around the same age this girl was when she was supporting Sarah Palin.

[Baphomette]

Gov. Brown Signs Bill to Remove the Term ‘Alien’ from California Labor Code : SB432

“I applaud Governor Brown for signing SB 432. My bill modernizes the Labor Code and removes the term “alien” to describe a person who is not born in or a fully naturalized citizen of the United States,” said Senator Tony Mendoza. “Alien is now commonly considered a derogatory term for a foreign-born person and has very negative connotations.”

Oh, California... You really do rock sometimes.

[onthewall2983]

A BLM activist spoke before Bernie came on in Los Angeles last night

[Mantra]

This is just further proof that every good movement will be met with resistance from within its ranks, from people who think it should be directed differently, from people who have no idea what the hell is going on... and then these people will fuck it up. Hopefully someone can reign this bullshit in.

It's the same thing I was saying about the Cecil the Lion extrapolation, where vegans are suddenly attacking people for eating chicken because they ventured to say that trophy hunting sucks.

Maybe the most essential thing a movement needs is someone who can firmly say "FUCK OFF" to all the people who try to co-opt it.

Yeah exactly, it's a constant issue in these types of movements/organizations, this perpetual struggle between the most radical members and the more 'moderate' members.

I spent years in a local organization that worked to prevent banks from foreclosing on family homes, and we often had to resort to some fairly militant tactics, like 'occupying' the house, some of us chaining ourselves to concrete barrels, blocking off streets, getting into straight up fistfights with the police, etc. Those actions are always going to attract certain types of people, activists who are just itching to get into a fight with 'the man.' They hear about what the organization is doing and they want to get in on the action. But whenever our efforts shifted to less overtly militant/radical actions, to stuff like getting certain bills passed, meeting with the mayor or other local politicians, or anything that seemed 'moderate' or 'collaborationist', the more hardcore members of the group would get all pissed off and act like we were getting soft and selling out. The radical members of a group are always accusing the moderates of 'using' them, off asking them to show up when shit's going down and then tossing them aside when the leadership decides they want to play ball with the establishment. And to be fair, that kind of shit does happen, especially in certain union struggles and whatnot.

I think infighting is one of the biggest issues for any organization to contend with. There's always the risk of fragmenting, splintering off, some members driving others away. I actually don't think telling them to fuck off is the best response. There's really no shortage of that approach, and I don't think it has a good effect. What's way harder (and very badly needed) is the ability to retain people, to keep things balanced and to keep everyone feeling happy and motivated.

[Jinsai]

I actually don't think telling them to fuck off is the best response.

Depends on who is co-opting your movement, but really, this person needs to be told to fuck the fuck right off, stay fucked, and never come back. I love how, in the middle of this obnoxious recording, she desperately makes examples of whatever negative response she gets, while completely overlooking the fact that large parts of this crowd are actually applauding some of the things she's saying.... despite the fact that they rallied to hear another person speak.



Still, even this interviewer has to shut her down when she says "How is this any different than a KKK rally?"

OH FUCK OFF

[telee.kom]

That's the thing though. I think we are at some weird point when you can't really be critical to certain groups of people without being labeled racist/sexist/homophobic whatever. This lady clearly needs to get a grip, but she would be the first one to call you racist piece of white supremacist shit when you would told her so.

[Sarah K]

BLM seems to be standing behind them, though...

The ‪#‎BlackLivesMatter‬ organization did not create any petitions demanding apology from Seattle based organizers. We have not issued a public apology, neither have we made any public statements demanding an apology.

[Sarah K]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/12/ny...imes&smtyp=cur

After those two inmates escaped from the NY prison, there was a lot of abuse to other prisoners who had nothing to do with them escaping.

Heartbreaking. I hope that these guards are held accountable for their crimes(they won't be).

[Baphomette]

Environmental Agency Uncorks Its Own Toxic Water Spill at Colorado Mine

But since Wednesday, the Animas has been grievously polluted with toxic water spilled from one of the many abandoned mines that pockmark the region — a spill for which the Environmental Protection Agency has claimed responsibility, saying it accidentally breached a store of chemical-laced water.

On Sunday, anger over the spill boiled over after the agency announced that the amount of toxic water released was three times what was previously stated — more than three million gallons rather than one million — and that officials were still unsure if there was a health threat to humans or animals.

[Mantra]

Depends on who is co-opting your movement, but really, this person needs to be told to fuck the fuck right off, stay fucked, and never come back. I love how, in the middle of this obnoxious recording, she desperately makes examples of whatever negative response she gets, while completely overlooking the fact that large parts of this crowd are actually applauding some of the things she's saying.... despite the fact that they rallied to hear another person speak.



Still, even this interviewer has to shut her down when she says "How is this any different than a KKK rally?"

OH FUCK OFF

Er, well, I think you might be getting mixed up or something, she is not the person who said, "How is this any different than a KKK rally?" That was the other woman on the show, one of the hosts I think. The girl from BLM is the person on the phone who starts speaking a little further into the recording.

The majority of what she actually does say is pretty solid. She seems alright to me. She's maybe just a little brash and unpolished for what you might ideally hope for from someone who's thrusting themselves into the spotlight, but whatever, her politics and her take on things is fairly spot on. She addresses pretty much all the things that people have asked, like why they put pressure on Bernie of all people, do you hate white people, the Palin stuff, etc. And the stuff she says around the 15:15 mark is especially pertinent to the way some people have reacted, and it echoes that quote that Orestes posted about the "respectability" bullshit. The problem with that whole attitude you get from certain white people should be obvious. They criticize black activists for not not using the tactics that they personally approve of and sometimes even use that as a means of denying the validity of the movement. And yeah, that kind of is a white supremacist attitude, actually. It's indicative of a person who still assess others from a position of superiority, where their standards and feelings are the bottom line. Like I said, they need to fucking humble themselves.

[allegro]

Environmental Agency Uncorks Its Own Toxic Water Spill at Colorado Mine

My Mom has been SO freaking out about this since Sunday, it is absolutely INSANE. What a HUGE fuck-up, I don't know HOW they are going to clean this shit up.

[telee.kom]

Er, well, I think you might be getting mixed up or something, she is not the person who said, "How is this any different than a KKK rally?" That was the other woman on the show, one of the hosts I think. The girl from BLM is the person on the phone who starts speaking a little further into the recording.

The majority of what she actually does say is pretty solid. She seems alright to me. She's maybe just a little brash and unpolished for what you might ideally hope for from someone who's thrusting themselves into the spotlight, but whatever, her politics and her take on things is fairly spot on. She addresses pretty much all the things that people have asked, like why they put pressure on Bernie of all people, do you hate white people, the Palin stuff, etc. And the stuff she says around the 15:15 mark is especially pertinent to the way some people have reacted, and it echoes that quote that Orestes posted about the "respectability" bullshit. The problem with that whole attitude you get from certain white people should be obvious. They criticize black activists for not not using the tactics that they personally approve of and sometimes even use that as a means of denying the validity of the movement. And yeah, that kind of is a white supremacist attitude, actually. It's indicative of a person who still assess others from a position of superiority, where their standards and feelings are the bottom line. Like I said, they need to fucking humble themselves.

Well the moderator is even more annoying than she is for sure, but Johnson called the crowd "liberal white supremacists", she is also saying that we are living in white supremacist society and liberals reinforce this idea (so she didn't use the word KKK rally, but she sure think it was similar). Basically she said that he picked Senders meeting because it was easier than to picket Hillary's. Like really? This is your reason? I don't see what part of the interview was supposed to be solid or full of great ideas. She said she doesn't have faith in politicians. So why the hell are you protesting on a political meeting? What is your goal? Just to make headlines? If she and this interview is an indication of what BLM stands for, then no thanks.

[Mantra]

Johnson called the crowd "liberal white supremacists", she is also saying that we are living in white supremacist society and liberals reinforce this idea (so she didn't use the word KKK rally, but she sure think it was similar).

Yeah, of course, pretty much every black activist will tell you this, because it's true. Just cause someone veers to the left doesn't automatically mean they don't harbor racist attitudes, obviously. I don't know how much experience you do or do not have in progressive circles, but this is still a huge issue for the left, and it has been for decades (see also: Letter from a Birmingham Jail). Leftists are less likely to be aggressively racist than rightwingers, but the mere act of subscribing to certain leftwing views isn't some panacea for all racism, especially not the "soft racism" that pervades the majority of white American culture.

Basically she said that he picked Senders meeting because it was easier than to picket Hillary's. Like really? This is your reason?

Uh, yeah, that's a perfectly valid reason. And that is not the only thing she said, the very first question she answered was about this, and she talked about how Sanders is supposed to be the most progressive candidate in this election, and yet he hadn't been making racial justice nearly enough of an issue, so he needed to be pushed.

She said she doesn't have faith in politicians. So why the hell are you protesting on a political meeting? What is your goal? Just to make headlines?

Of course. The goal is to make headlines and get people talking. That's agitation. That's the point, to raise awareness of certain issues and get people thinking. BLM wouldn't accomplish shit by being polite and folding their hands and waiting their turn.

[telee.kom]

BLM wouldn't accomplish shit by being polite and folding their hands and waiting their turn.

I can't agree. Radicalism will only turn (majority of) people away from being supportive of this movement. Take LGBT community as an example. How come they accomplished most of their goals without being aggressive and radical? I think that's exactly why. If you want to change prejudice in minds of people, you can't do it by acting upon those preconceptions. And do you think that it's a good idea trying to gain support of a crowd by saying they're bunch of racist and white supremacists? Nope.

[Sarah K]

What about this are people viewing as "radical"?

Also, marriage equality doesn't mean that all goals have been accomplished. There is still a LONG way to go on that front.

[allegro]

I agree, compared to the Black Panthers or Malcolm X, nothing that BLM is doing is "radical" at all, really.

And, in this country, the whites are desperately trying to maintain control, because the white majority is quickly changing and Hispanics are becoming the majority and this scares the living crap out of whites. Hence this Quiverfull movement and trying to eliminate abortion and birth control so we can make a lot more white babies. Republicans were pushing birth control to black people to control the black population for this very reason.

[telee.kom]

They took the spot from someone else and prohibit the legit speaker from speaking to his audience. It wasn't their meeting, if they wanted to promote BLM movement by setting up their own happening, I don't think anybody would stop them, but they rather choose to take voice from somebody else. This is not how you promote your ideas. And again, screaming bloody racism when people are only disliking the way you are acting is the exact prejudice I think people have. And Sanders even gave them space to voice their opinion, but they only took advantage of it

[allegro]

This is not how you promote your ideas.

I'm not disagreeing that this kind of rhetoric (name-calling) causes racial divide rather than unity; the man in the video I posted on the prior page said the same thing.

The Black Power movement of the 60s and 70s (represented by the raised fists that are used now in current protests) focused more on mobilizing and the self-determination of blacks than railing against whites, and that got a lot more results.

This is at the 1968 Olympics:

[Sarah K]

None of this is "radical" though, was the point. That word keeps getting thrown around, and I don't think people even know what it means.

Social change doesn't happen when people sit by and hope for it. We have to go out and do something. It isn't something that can be asked for, it must be demanded.

[DigitalChaos]

Social change doesn't happen when people sit by and hope for it. We have to go out and do something. It isn't something that can be asked for, it must be demanded.

and social change can also be halted/rerouted/dismantled when your actions aren't properly thought out. There is a huge history of that.

[allegro]

None of this is "radical" though, was the point.

I didn't use the word, either. I agree, and my post indicated, none of it is radical (terrorism is radical). But he meant calling your audience names, I think. I don't think he's saying anything against going out and doing anything, or saying you should sit around.

But the video posted on the prior page said they were only trying to use that venue because it had a lot of people; not because Sanders could actually do anything toward their cause; so if they were there for the audience, calling the audience names isn't a great way to get the audience on your side. It's, like, a D- on your Communication 101 Exam. (I'm a member of Lambda Pi Eta so I know these things, LOL.)

Just cause someone veers to the left doesn't automatically mean they don't harbor racist attitudes, obviously.

Studies have shown that everyone harbors some kind of (albeit often subconscious) racist attitudes; but there's a big difference between harboring some subconscious racist attitudes and being a "white supremacist." Even "soft racism" does not = white supremacist. I know from 40+ years experience in the women's movement that most men subconsciously harbor gender biases toward women, but getting up there and calling an audience of men a bunch of male chauvinist pigs won't get me anywhere.

[elevenism]

@Sarah K talks mad shit to idiots on my facebook feed...people i don't want to call out because we kicked it back in the day that's "doing something"

[Sarah K]

I guess I don't view acknowledging the state of white supremacy(I'm understanding it as white supremacy as societal in the academic term, not like... KKK) as calling names. But I haven't like intently watched the video or anything, so I shouldn't really comment on it yet. I've listened to it once, but not paid close attention, ya know? I'm going to try to make an effort to watch it and that interview that she did this weekend. I want to have a better understanding of the situation. I'm still kinda lost on it. I can see value in both sides, but I'm slightly on the BLM side at this moment.

And I don't talk shit to people I don't know too often. I just tell them when they say something stupid.

[allegro]

I guess I don't view acknowledging the state of white supremacy (I'm understanding it as white supremacy as societal in the academic term, not like... KKK) as calling names.

Acknowledging that whites (currently) control the system is different -- from an academic standpoint -- vs. saying "you are all white supremacists" meaning the belief that white people believe they are superior; when accusing your audience that you want to address and get on your side of being white supremacists, of course (a) they aren't going to (consciously) believe that, (b) they weren't there to see you, they're frothing at the mouth to see their God And Savior, Bernie The Democratic Socialist, and (c) a lot of the people in the audience were black people.

Better way:

Ethos
Logos
Pathos

Rhetoric (n) - the art of speaking or writing effectively (Webster's Definition).

According to Aristotle, rhetoric is "the ability, in each particular case, to see the available means of persuasion." He described three main forms of rhetoric: Ethos, Logos, and Pathos.

Dr. King was the Master of all three.

From his "Dream" speech in Washington:

But there is something that I must say to my people, who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice: In the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again, we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.

The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom.

We cannot walk alone.

And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead.

We cannot turn back.

There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. *We cannot be satisfied as long as the negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their self-hood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating: "For Whites Only."* We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until "justice rolls down like waters, and righteousness like a mighty stream."

[Mantra]

if they wanted to promote BLM movement by setting up their own happening, I don't think anybody would stop them, but they rather choose to take voice from somebody else. This is not how you promote your ideas.

Sure it is. Sanders has responded to their pressure with stuff like: https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice ... So yeah, this stuff gets results. Now their concerns are pushed further into the spotlight than they were last month. They never would have had the same impact if they'd just staged their own little meeting that had no drama, no attention.

Studies have shown that everyone harbors some kind of (albeit often subconscious) racist attitudes; but there's a big difference between harboring some subconscious racist attitudes and being a "white supremacist." Even "soft racism" does not = white supremacist. I know from 40+ years experience in the women's movement that most men subconsciously harbor gender biases toward women, but getting up there and calling an audience of men a bunch of male chauvinist pigs won't get me anywhere.

Yeah but I just think it's weird how some people feel so personally attacked by her statements. It's especially bizarre coming from people who weren't even there. Like, if you know you're totally down for the cause and you agree with all or most of what she's saying, then you should just automatically know that she's not even talking about you. They addressed this in the interview when she said, "I would say that anyone who hears me say that and thinks about their feelings first is a white supremacist," and then the other host says "Yeah, if it ain't about you, don't make it about you." She spoke in a general sense about having to fight her way in order to get in front of "a bunch of white racists," and yeah, that's indicting a bunch of the people, but the claim that she's just broadly insulting every single last white person is pretty dumb. She said there were white members of the BLM movement right there helping her, her mom is white, etc, she obviously isn't on some pre-Mecca Malcolm X shit. I especially don't understand why certain people need this explained to them even after hearing her interview.

And again, the fact that a lot of people have been so hostile and negative towards her really does go a long way to validating everything she said. Even if someone does disagree with certain aspects of her approach, so what? It's not like she killed someone. Political movements are filled to the brim with flawed people, people who don't always handle themselves like MLK (who was deeply flawed in his own ways), but who cares? These unpolished, flawed people are the ones who do the actual work and make shit happen. I disagree with all sorts of tactics and statements and actions that various activists take, in fact I ideologically disagree with some of this girl's statements in that interview. But whatever, that doesn't mean you toss out the whole movement, or even that particular person. If that's your honest reaction, then you were obviously never down for the cause in the first place, in which case, you are part of the problem.

(note: not you personally, the general "you")

[allegro]

Yeah but I just think it's weird how some people feel so personally attacked by her statements.

White Guilt!!!!