Hairy Member
I agree. It's nice to see some people praising "With Teeth". I see a lot of WT hate on here and don't really understand why. Personally, it's one of my favorite NIN albums. I think ManBurning makes a great point about looking at the tracklists and thinking about how many songs you like on a given record, but I also think you need to take into account how much you like those songs.Originally Posted by screwdriver
she/her/hers
my cousin plays it for his 5-year-old as a "pump up" song before he (the five year old) plays hockey, which i find adorable.
Bite me
If a narrative (story) exists, Bob is the narrator because he compiled a "story" from songs. But a "story" has to include the basic required elements of a "story." Starfuckers definitely fits into the "theme." In music, you can have a theme without a narrative, e.g. an entire album can be based on the "theme" of minor keys. I'm not disagreeing with you; I think we're just talking semantics.
Last edited by allegro; 08-29-2013 at 08:31 PM.
Throbbing Member
Actually, it doesn't. A narrative is a sequence of events, words, images, ideas... that are presented as a whole. They don't have to be a whole, they don't have to be in any particular order, they don't have to have anything to do with eachother... it's merely a presentation, a suggestion of succession.
If nothing else Bob E. (this is silly, btw) presented a sonic narrative, where several songs form longer sequences of sound, not merely flowing into eachother but echoing portions of the same or previous sequences - without doing the obvious, like linking La Mer and ITV or TDTWWA and TGB. In a way, The Fragile has stronger qualities of a sonic narrative than the very literal, story narrative of TDS.
And one could argue that lyrically, there's also something to be said for the position certain songs take, like SD/TDTWW, TWOIT or RWD.
I also think it's unfair to put the blame of 'too much music' on anyone's shoulders, in this case. If you're given all this sound, some of it just chopped up ideas, and the man who made them cannot tell you what's important and what's not, then how would you go about weeding it out? I can say that I think the album would have been better without Even Deeper, The Wretched, Where Is Everybody and Starfuckers - but what do I know? I don't know what it's about. Somehow, somewhere, it's about something Reznor wanted to communicate. And whether or not he failed epically at communicating it, is not up to someone else to decide. Maybe, to him, at that point, those four songs that I would like to cut out were crucial. Who knows? He certainly didn't, so how could someone else?
It would be interesting to see how the Treznor would arrange those songs today, which ones he'd kick out, which ones he'd change... But it would also be cheating, because part of what I love about that album (and yes, it is my favourite NIN album) is that it sounds like a beautiful mess. It resonates with me more than anything else any others musician has ever done, probably because it's so messy and it makes very little sense except when you just surrender yourself to it and listen. Because despite the gaps and the weirdness, it does flow. Just listening to it, it does sound like one long trip through something. It's just that there's no liner notes explaining you what that something is.
[/rant]
BACKROLLS?!
Find My Way (Oneohtrix Point Never Remix) >>>>>>>>> Find My Way.
Active Member
And that's why art, I believe, is mostly in the eye of the beholder. Because be it in music, literature, sculputure, painting, the original intent is infinitely debatable, and more often than not the artist isn't clear about it him/herself. All that's left is the piece of art, and you receiving it.
On that regard, you alone can decide what's best, what to keep and what to discard. You can decide to keep the piece as is, to decipher the puzzle and see how it resonates with you, or you can decide that no, some part breaks the harmony in an awkward way.
That's what we do constantly in life. "Collect, reject". You have to be a zen master to accept things as they are and not question them. Even when it's a great record by an artist you love.
That my humble two cents on the subject anyway...
Throbbing Member
Actually, imho it's not. The original intent is one of the very few things about an artwork, aside from the original materiality of it, that doesn't change over time. That doesn't mean the artist always knows what that intent is, or a piece of art can't take on a generally accepted meaning that wasn't the intended one. But whatever went on in his head making The Fragile, that's his intent. And Reznor may not be able to say what it means, but that's kind of the point of art: it speaks for us, it says things we don't have words for. If we had words, we probably wouldn't need to make art.
Aside from whether I have the right to change a work of art after it's been put into the world (which we do agree on that yes: once it's in the public domain, it's everybody's), before it's finished it's the artist's, in this case Reznor's. And I don't think anyone working with or for him could make the call what's important and what not.
Active Member
But paradoxically, it's almost immediately lost once it's out in the world. I see what you mean though, and perhaps I've interjected too soon, as I think we're looking at the subject from opposite perspectives. I apologize for that, I thought you were talking about modifications/interpretations from the public eye, when in fact you're only talking about collaborators, am I right ?
Throbbing Member
And The Fragile still causes controversy around its design and narrative (or lack of). For me there are a couple of songs that aren't favorites (even deeper & starfuckers) but I still see them as relevant to the "narrative" which is told through the fragmented sketches of the protagonists "frail" mind, perhaps in a psych ward. The album is also split in two parts: Before a suicide attempt that ends with "The Great Below" and post failed suicide that starts with "The Way Out Is Through". This explains the story-like quality of the left side, and the fragmented and diffuse aspect of the right side.
The narrative isn't as coherent compared to TDS but it is consistent in its obsessed, brave and sometimes desperate attempts to fix itself – just to see it all break down again, by habit, weakness and spite (The Big Come Down). The lyrics even reflect an infantile state of mind with spoiled and child-like ramblings of things around him in his search for finding reasons to blame, instead of taking responsibility (Somewhat Damaged, Where Is Everybody).
Starfuckers Inc, while not being my favorite, still has one element that makes it awesome IMO. While taking the piss out of celebrity with all its BS, it mocks MTV with that guitar riff that mirrors the very first MTV signature riff from the 80's (the one with the astronaut placing the MTV-flag on the moon) Am I alone in hearing this? :
Throbbing Member
Ooh, no need to apologize. And yes, you're right on both counts: I was talking about collaborators, and it is almost immediately lost, which is why people are so obsessed with discovering it, I think. [One of the most interesting courses I ever took, was about the material bond between a work of art and its creator, and linked it to relics and devotion; and I really do see that with Nine Inch Nails, where I feel people are incredibly respectful of Reznor's private life, but they're really hungry to understand the only material link to his art, which is what he says and thinks and feels about it.]
I'm going to stop being a weird geek now.
Hairy Member
I don't know if this is the appropriate thread, but anyway:
After the 2000 London overdose, TR could have chosen between keep doing drugs or quitting them. If he had chosen the first one, He would have probably died and today would be remembered as some Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain popular culture immortal myth. He chose the sober way and that's why He has evolved this way, so far from the goth who wrote the becoming and stuff. In other words, he decided to stay alive and I respect that.
I bet it's the first time you've read this in this forum haha
Captain Rustleboots
Not NIN related per-se but Marilyn Manson should have killed himself back in 2003 after the Golden Age of Grotesque. Thats the happiest he seems to have ever been and his life (from his own words in interviews) has been a downhill piece of shit since.
Would have preserved his career, legacy, and position in pop culture history.
Bent Member
He did not get sober after the overdose. That's the heartbreaking thing about addicts.
His clean date was not until almost a year later, June 2001.
Hairy Member
well, that's the worst part of an addiction. he didn't quit drugs radically i guess, but he probably start thinking different about his life. one of the things I find more relevant/funny about his lifestyle back then is the comment about the paramedics being called at the hotel in london when he was found unconscious; that sounds pretty old-school rockstar lifestyle, nothing to do with the 2013 trent reznor. I mean, he is a musician and just wants to deliver his music to his fans, although he dind't get clean up to a year later than that, it seems obvoius that the man got scared and chose life.
Unintelligible Whispering
I don't think The Collector's lyrics are all that bad.
I can listen to The Fragile front to back, Left to Right, and enjoy something about every track. It's not perfect, it's long, but there's absolutely something to love about every last one.
Every last one, every last one.
Throbbing Member
I'm going to second that. But then, I kind of like Trent's lyrics. Even though I know that objectively speaking they're pretty much not good.
Vertiginous Member
I feel that way about pretty much everything Trent's ever produced. Even in the songs I'm not so keen on, there's always at least a kernal of greatness lurking in it.
Hairy Member
I never minded the lyrics in "The Collector" but I can't say I care for the music at all.
Stubby Member
Controversial HTDA opinion:
I like The Space In Between and A Drowning more than anything on Welcome Oblivion.
Hairy Member
I'll second that. I've only listened to "Welcome Oblivion" two or three times. It really didn't resonate with me at all and I felt the songs were very forgettable.
Active Member
"Everything" could be put on a 90s NIN mix and it'd work just fine.
Stubby Member
I never understood objectively measuring lyrics. I still don't understand how people judge lyrics at all. His lyrics are simple, personal, and cryptic in their vagueness. I don't think they're bad because of that. I think they fit the songs just fine.
Bored
GAH! Sorry @Magrão that was a totally accidental facepalm. I really didn't mean to do it.
Stubby Member
I'm eagerly waiting for the "Everything" video
Active Member
it's already out there
Hairy Member
Nuh uh???? WHERE???????it's already out there
Stubby Member
Getting Smaller and The Collector are my favorite songs in WT, those are some of the last screaming recording of Trent
I was nobody. Nothing.
i don't know if this is really controversial, but i really, truly fucking ADORE every NIN album and EVERY song (except Ghosts, which is PRETTY good)
Hairy Member
People always refer to Complication as a filler track, which it probably is, but I love that little song. Its a nice comedown (Ha! Puns...Kill me.) from Starfuckers.
I think it was Magrao who said, a couple pages back, that the Right side was better. And after listening to the Fragile drunk (something I seem to be doing a lot recently with all NIN albums) it sounds so much more lively than the left side (I mean to say that it's a more fun listen, not better).
Last edited by Ichiro; 08-30-2013 at 08:26 PM.
Active Member
That was @allegro. But yeah, it's the more manic side of The Fragile. Or whatever.
Complication knockers... *shakes head* Nevermind you.
Last edited by Amaro; 08-30-2013 at 08:32 PM.
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