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Thread: Game of Thrones - Spoilers

  1. #1051
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Baphomette View Post
    I would've lost respect for Dany had she NOT sent him away. She demonstrated how much she'd grown, that she trusted herself enough to send away this person on whom she had relied on so heavily and she wasn't swayed by his declaration of love. Additionally, although the last time he reported to Varys was while she was still with Drogo, don't forget that Spoiler: in the books, his last report to Varys is sent while they were in Q'arth. And Varys was NOT helping Dany in Season 1. He was helping Viserys. (The order to have Dany poisoned was sent before Viserys was killed and I think Jorah's intervention was partly motivated by the fact that Dany was now the last Targ. I mean, his love for her was probably the main factor but he was also protecting the side of his bread that was buttered.)

    And about him being a good advisor, I don't entirely agree. He told her to run when Drogo was dying, he told her to sell her eggs instead of placing them on the pyre, he strongly urged her to leave Q'arth without her dragons; and he initially suggested she not take Yunkai. He may have had her best interest at heart but a good advisor? Yeeeeeeah... no.
    All true. I stand by my argument about throwing away such an obvious lap dog. He could have been very useful to her now. As far as him being a dick goes, I completely agree. *never forgets that he was a slaver

  2. #1052
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    "Oh, yes, the famously tart tongued Queen of Thorns."
    "And the famous tart, Queen Cersei."

  3. #1053
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    I am literally shaking with rage right now.

    Fuck this show.

  4. #1054
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes View Post
    I am literally shaking with rage right now.

    Fuck this show.
    I loathe Sansa. I absolutely despise her character. So I can't say that I felt for her at all. And Spoiler: since this (and worse) happens to Jayne Poole in the books and since Sansa is filling in for her on the show, are you really surprised it happened?

    Now, what they're doing with Loras? THAT has pissed me off to no end.

    Dorne has been a joke so far. Really disappointed with that as well.
    Last edited by Baphomette; 05-18-2015 at 02:50 AM.

  5. #1055
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    People have been raped and have raped before, they have been wed against their wishes/will before, nothing that happened in this episode has strayed from that, so unless you've been "shaking with rage" for 5 seasons straight, there's no reason to be particularly outraged now.
    I just wish people would go cry about the books in the book thread.

  6. #1056
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    No, but maybe I'm just feed up with producers using rape as a cheap plot device and sympathy ploy for what will, ultimately, be about a male character's redemption.

    Maybe I'm tired of seeing women fridged on this show. To what means was this scene necessary? To show how much of a monster Ramsay Bolton is? Unnecessary because it's already been proven time and again to viewers. Everything D&D have done this season to build Sansa up as an empowered character, seeking revenge against those who have hurt her family, was invalidated with that scene, despite what the episode producer/writer thinks. As humiliating and cringeworthy as that scene was, it wasn't even about Sansa. The last shot of the episode panned in on Theon. The viewer is made to feel uncomfortable because of what he is being forced to witness. Pain does not belong to the woman who has to suffer it.

    The world of Game of Thrones is a deeply patriarchal one, in which violence indirectly and directly benefits men but how many times do we need to drive the same point home? If the show runners really wanted to highlight the inherent violence of this society, they wouldn't have cut the fucking Greyjoys out of the show. (Hello, Eurion!)

    "Oh, it's so much worse in the books."- that may be but not everything has to be translated verbatim from the books. I've read the books and to be quite honest, I started skipping the Reek chapters near the end because it would make me physically ill to read, so it's possible I've either forgotten or skipped the scene with "fake Arya".

  7. #1057
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    Are you saying rape doesn't happen to empowered women? Should they totally ignore the fact that there was no other way for their wedding night to unfold, bar some crazy stunt she could have pulled that would likely only wnd up with her beaten to a pulp? Would you prefer if they just skipped the scene and ignored the issue entirely? Should it just be left to our imaginations where we'd be left to think "oh it probably wasn't that bad for Sansa, being this new hardened woman and all".
    I have not read the books nor do I intend to. I don't care what or how it happens there. The scene was logical and had a place in the series, however ugly it was.

  8. #1058
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    Why are people on the internet so angry about this Sansa scene? Personally, I was only a little disappointed because I thought Sansa had hidden a dagger somewhere in that dress... But honestly, this kind of scene (ok, without Theon in the background) just happens in an arranged marriage. It's standard procedure in a feudal society... (and yes, it's cruel)
    The only disappointment I have with this season so far is the treatment of Dorne... it looks like an exploitation movie... Initially (that is, two years ago), I thought that Dorne would voluntarily provide Daenerys's starting point for conquering the Seven Kingdoms. Maybe that's why they have to show the location, because otherwise, they should have shown something different instead.
    Edit: Something else, I think it has been an interesting decision to reduce the Tyrell family by a couple of members. I've wondered about that for a while now (since the Loras-Cersei marriage proposal). The behavior of the Tyrells of the movies does not really make sense, since Loras now is the only one to continue the family.
    Last edited by ambergris; 05-18-2015 at 08:45 AM.

  9. #1059
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    Does anyone else read this thread just for amusement, not knowing what's going on at all?
    I never watched a single episode of this show (or read a book), but the way you guys empathizing is really fun.

  10. #1060
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    Quote Originally Posted by fillow View Post
    Does anyone else read this thread just for amusement, not knowing what's going on at all?
    I never watched a single episode of this show (or read a book), but the way you guys empathizing is really fun.
    I stopped watching the show at the end of season 1 when they killed of Boromir Sean Bean because I was so pissed at that "twist" but I've kept reading the thread and I have to admit that sometimes, it almost makes me want to start watching again.

    And I definitely have to read the books.

  11. #1061
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    Where the fuck was my Manderly pie last night?

  12. #1062
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    I'm reserving judgment on this until the season is done. The scene was super uncomfortable... and it was supposed to be. I certainly don't think that it's going to take a babyface turn from Theon to "save" Sansa. Quite the opposite, in fact. But for those who are enraged and besides themselves after watching Sansa's rape, what show did you think you were watching?

  13. #1063
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    No fuck this though. D and D absolutely refuse to engage with the idea of rape and nuanced sexual politics in their show in any valid way and this has been a consistent problem in their adaptation. I have a few friends who have rage quit the show after this Sansa shit and I don't blame them at all. The fact that their universe is so riddled with this reality does not justify every careless decision they make when it comes to depicting rape on their show. If anything they should feel they have even more responsibility to tackle these issues in a meaningful way. It's a wonderful opportunity continually squandered for nasty entertainment.

    What angers me most is their absolute refusal to explore the issue when it is actually integral to the core of a character. For instance book 4 has Cersei chapters which heavily explore her life of being raped with Robert Baratheon and how that has contributed to her paranoia, cruelty and even formulation of her sexuality and sexual fantasies, and many people who watch the show don't even understand why she wanted to kill Robert besides senseless power hungry-ness. I doubt the rest of the season will explore it either. Who fucking knows what they got planned for her in season 6. To me this Sansa shit proves they do not have an ability to create as strong a story for their more "feminine" female leads once the book content runs out.

    Another example is Dany and Drogo. Rather than explore the physical pain and psychological impact on Dany's character that being sold at such a young age and essentially forced to have sex like that in the book, they just showed one scene in episode 1 and the rest of her arc plays out as if that specifically has no impact. I've noticed that Martin has not actually written a rape scene for any of the POV female characters but instead chooses to explore heavily how these assaults effect the psychology of the character via memory and reflection.

    Let's not forget Cersei/Jaime in season 4....fucking makes no sense.
    I will also never forgive them for making Shae in love with Tyrion because god forbid a prostitute character is explored without her falling in love with her client to make it more palatable. God forbid Tyrion's delusional side when it comes to the exploitation of women is ever explored.

    Like with that storyline and the Sansa storyline now they want to keep the same storybeats because they are great beats, while changing the context and characters so the result is something that doesn't make sense or damages the integrity of female characterization to contribute to dude characters.

    When it comes to Sansa, they kept the plot beats necessary in order to keep Theon and Ramsay's book motivations and emotional states in tact at the expense of Sansa. It's just not fair. Why isn't her story priority when she is the lead character of the 3? Like @orestes is saying it wasn't about Sansa at all seeing as the precedent for the arc she is going to complete was already set. I can think of a few ways they could have joined her storyline with Jeyne's as they wanted without throwing her under the bus , but I had a feeling they'd choose the cheap route per usual.

    Also fuck that their Sand Snakes were basically turned into comedy, AND they top off that scene with a shitty sexist joke by Bronn? Im so mad yall!
    Last edited by littlemonkey613; 05-18-2015 at 11:16 PM.

  14. #1064
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlemonkey613 View Post
    Also fuck that their Sand Snakes were basically turned into comedy, AND they top off that scene with a shitty sexist joke by Bronn? Im so mad yall!
    Man​, at first I was pissed they cut out Arianne Martell from the show but looks like we dodged a bullet. Dorne has been the absolute worst this season and both Dorne and the Sand Snakes were my faves from AFFC. The Sand Snakes have been woefully miscast on the show.

  15. #1065
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes View Post
    The Sand Snakes have been woefully miscast on the show.
    Because if they're passionate and hot-tempered, then OF COURSE they have to be Latins. :eyeroll:

    The irony of Bronn's joke was lost on a lot of people. Slickest kill ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by orestes View Post
    No, but maybe I'm just feed up with producers using rape as a cheap plot device and sympathy ploy for what will, ultimately, be about a male character's redemption.
    I get what you're saying, I really do. And, obviously, my dislike of Sansa has biased my opinion of the scene. What I'm curious about is the idea of Theon's "eventual redemption" because I don't see it happening either on the show or in the eyes of the viewers. (At least not in my eyes.)
    Last edited by Baphomette; 05-19-2015 at 12:17 AM.

  16. #1066
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    No, they should fight worth a damn and be worthy of the name Sand Snakes, not flunkies out of Xena:Warrior Princess. Show Obara is the worst.

  17. #1067
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes View Post
    No, they should fight worth a damn and be worthy of the name Sand Snakes, not flunkies out of Xena:Warrior Princess. Show Obara is the worst.
    Agreed. The racial stereo-typing pissed me off initially, however.

  18. #1068
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    Ugh, those accents, too.

  19. #1069
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    lol what the hell is going on in here? This is a fantasy show about knights and dragons and ice monsters, right?

  20. #1070
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Seaward View Post
    lol what the hell is going on in here? This is a fantasy show about knights and dragons and ice monsters, right?
    Right? A show with dragons deserves far better.

  21. #1071
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    I just think the criticisms are a bit misplaced regarding the rape scene. This is pretty in line for Sansa. She doesn't really do anything, except follow the lead of whoever tells her to do something. Maybe I'm missing the part where she's growing or getting stronger? She got married off and then her husband had sex with her. That doesn't have to be a meaningful scene, it's just a scene showing what happened and that's fine.

  22. #1072
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    Was it even rape? Remember, Sansa agreed to the wedding when Littlefinger asked her. She realized what it meant and agreed because it would give her a chance for revenge. She knew the price and now paid it. But she will (probably) get her revenge, that's what Brienne is there for, and that's why Theon had to watch.

  23. #1073
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    I'm bothered by hatred for Sansa's character in general. I think the main reason why people hate her so much is that she is us. She is exactly how any of us would be in that world. Timid, passive, helpless, in need of guidance. She's not mother of dragons, she's not some street warrior, she doesn't have magical powers or wilderness survival skills, she doesn't have amazing wit or sexual prowess, she's just average and reacts to things like any of us would react. She cries, she whimpers, she wants revenge, but eventually does what she needs to do to stay alive. She was just your average naive teenage girl who wanted to marry a prince and be a princess with no concept whatsoever of the schemes, the bloodthirst or the power games she'd be thrown in. People "loathing" her for that ... I don't get it. If I were in her shoes I'd probably cry and feel sorry for myself even more and would have likely thrown myself out the window sometime during season 2...

  24. #1074
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    Was having the exact discussion yesterday and I think people loathe a character like Sansa (book or show is irrelevant) is because, in a deeply patriarchal society with a rigid class structure, she confirms to feudal gender roles. You could fault her for being naive but she grew up in a very sheltered environment, both metaphorically and geographically speaking. She's not "cool" like Brienne who subverts gender roles, although for all her physical strength, one could argue Brienne is lot more naive when it comes to politics and how people behave than Sansa.

    Quote Originally Posted by ambergris View Post
    Was it even rape? Remember, Sansa agreed to the wedding when Littlefinger asked her. She realized what it meant and agreed because it would give her a chance for revenge. She knew the price and now paid it. But she will (probably) get her revenge, that's what Brienne is there for, and that's why Theon had to watch.
    Oh, hon, I hope you're not asking if it was rape because they are married.

  25. #1075
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    Now, if you are not comfortable with rape scenes in a TV Show, why are you watching Game Of Thrones Orestes and others? I was watching first two seasons of the show and I just didn't enjoy the world, so I simply stop watching it. You are learning just now, 5 season in, that GoT have a cruel world where people are getting raped and murdered?

  26. #1076
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes View Post
    Oh, hon, I hope you're not asking if it was rape because they are married.
    Hah, no, you're completely missing the point. Sansa is playing her game (or Littlefinger's game, which Sansa has chosen to play). Littlefinger gave her the choice and Sansa is where she wants to be. So it's not the marriage itself. And it's not even 'only' the sex, because if Ramsay was perfectly harmless and kind to Sansa, she'd be perfectly fine with playing her charade until her time for revenge comes. The "only" problem for her is that just before, Miranda told her that Ramsay is a sadist and that Theon is being forced to watch. But remember, Sansa knew that the Boltons killed her brother and mother and Littlefinger told her that now is her time to play the game herself. I guess one can complain that the showrunners just tried to squeeze a little more viewer's disgust out of the Sansa character arc, but then, yes, what kind of show did you think you were watching?

  27. #1077
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    I've seen TGWTDT, for example, so I'm not reflexively averse to sexual assault in tv/movies if it is more than just plot point for character development other than the victim.

    I've also read the books so I know that this seemingly random violence that is systematic in this society falls more on than just the female characters.

    I think this is worth a read: http://www.shakesville.com/2015/05/t...lture.html?m=1

  28. #1078
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    It would be awesome if all the feminist who keeps criticizing movies for their depiction of women get up of their asses and go make a movie. I think it would be a lot more beneficial to society than constant criticizing of every form of entertainment from their very narrow point of view.

    Just go make great feminist movie where all the characters, all the character development, all the jokes, all the story is feminist friendly and approved. I would like to see the end result of this. The constant shitting on everything with the attitude "I am a feminist thus I have the right to tell you how to make movies" is really tiring.

  29. #1079
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    It would be awesome if all the feminist who keeps criticizing movies for their depiction of women get up of their asses and go make a movie.
    Yes, because everyone with an opinion is a highly regarded Hollywood producer with distributors clamoring to show their films to people.

    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    Just go make great feminist movie where all the characters, all the character development, all the jokes, all the story is feminist friendly and approved. I would like to see the end result of this. The constant shitting on everything with the attitude "I am a feminist thus I have the right to tell you how to make movies" is really tiring.
    Please learn what feminism means. Here, I'll help you:

    Do you believe that men and women deserve to be treated as equals?
    If you answered no, you're a shitbag and I hope you pour hot coffee in your lap.
    If you answered yes, you understand feminism.

    If you think there is ANYTHING more to it than that - such as a feeling of smug superiority or belonging on a pedestal - you're wrong. That's not feminism; that's just angry shouting from people. They may be, among other things, feminists. But feminism is not even remotely close to what you're rambling about.

    Oh, and one more thing: being anti-rape isn't a narrow point of view. It's actually probably one of the most universally accepted views that has ever existed. It's up there with thou shalt not kill. I'll give you this...in a story that is riddled with rape, I do find it a little peculiar that so many people are getting so up in arms about the context of it...I mean, rape is awful in any form. If you were okay with one character getting raped, why not a different character? And if you're not okay with it, what the hell are you watching/reading a series like this for to begin with?

    But sorry, to summarize: rape = awful, being anti-rape =/= narrow minded, and feminism =/= angry women shouting that they're better than everyone else.

  30. #1080
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    Just go make great feminist movie where all the characters, all the character development, all the jokes, all the story is feminist friendly and approved. I would like to see the end result of this. The constant shitting on everything with the attitude "I am a feminist thus I have the right to tell you how to make movies" is really tiring.
    Already seen Mad Max: Fury Road.

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