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Thread: Game of Thrones - Spoilers

  1. #1081
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    @theimage13 I'm not exactly sure why you explaining all of this to me, I wasn't arguing about feminism, I was arguing about very specific thing that some feminist do I find extremely annoying. We are still allowed to have different opinions right?

    Also your write up is extremely demagogic, I never said that being anti rape means having a narrow point of view. I said that feminist look at movie making, and movie writing only from feminist perspective is narrow minded look at movie making. I believe film making shouldn't put feminist agenda before, for example, story telling, directors vision, etc. If writer thinks that it would make a better story arc for a character to get raped, so be it. It's the same thing when a writer kill a character off, you might not like, but it's someone else story, movie maker shouldn't conform their work to people who feel offended by it or doesn't like it. Also, you are confusing fiction and reality a little bit here. I am very much anti rape person, yet I don't think it should be omitted from displaying in cinema any more than murder is.

    Quote Originally Posted by orestes View Post
    Already seen Mad Max: Fury Road.
    How many of these feminist bloggers were working on that movie exactly? I think there was Vagina Monologues writer consulting the actresses about abuse, and kudos to her, I think she did a great job from what I saw.
    Last edited by telee.kom; 05-19-2015 at 01:23 PM.

  2. #1082
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    I don't understand all the backlash for the Sansa scene. Was it terrible? Well sure, but half of this stuff on this show is terrible. And the argument of "we already know Ramsay is a monster, why do they feel the need to show it again?!" is horseshit. We've seen dragons fly and Tyrion be a drunk but we're damn sure going to see those things again.

  3. #1083
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    Quote Originally Posted by theimage13 View Post
    Yes, because everyone with an opinion is a highly regarded Hollywood producer with distributors clamoring to show their films to people.
    You do realize there's an independent film industry, right? It's 2015. Anyone can make a film nowadays. Don't have someone to distribute your film? Post it on youtube or vimeo. Lots of people watch independent films on those sites. If you still can't for some reason make a film, then write a script and maybe someone else will make it. If people are having problems with the film industry and want to change it, then they should start by trying to influence the change themselves by taking part in it. Not trying to be rude, but I think it'd actually be nice seeing some of the people who have a problem with the industry try to actually change it.

  4. #1084
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    GRRM uses rape and the propensity towards it as cheap character window dressing in the books too... did we really need the story where the Mountain rapes the innkeeper's daughter in front of him to demonstrate how awful he is? Did we need to know that Roose Bolton conceived Ramsay by raping his mother under the corpse of her hanged husband? Are the dothraki tribes sufficiently barbaric without casually endorsing rape?

    There were only a few ways the wedding night with Ramsay could have played out, and they could have been much more gratuitous than they were. Having Ramsay actually treat her well in any capacity would be strange and out of character; he isn't capable of it. Forcing Theon to watch is pretty much exactly in line with how he'd be inclined to reveal his true nature to Sansa... and they didn't show any of the actual sexual assault.

    Theon's character may or may not be somewhat redeemed down the line here, and that would be a pretty amazing story arc to pull off, considering that a few years ago most viewers would have wished the worst on him. Theon is also ultimately the victim of gross sexual torment and the worst psychological torment in the entire story (and that's saying something). Spoiler: Even if he is redeemed somewhat, we all know that Brianne will be part of the story there too. He won't be pulling it off alone either way.

    Did we need this disturbing scene for it to be possible for Theon to be somewhat redeemed later (potentially)? I don't think so... does it cheapen the story by being too pandering with disgusting topics? I don't think so either on that note. I think they could have handled that whole scene with a lot less tact than they did.

  5. #1085
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    i hate when the public latches on to whatever new thing to be "outraged" about is "in" and start targeting things like movies and tv shows. so stupid.

  6. #1086
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    GRRM uses rape and the propensity towards it as cheap character window dressing in the books too... did we really need the story where the Mountain rapes the innkeeper's daughter in front of him to demonstrate how awful he is?
    Did we need the story where Theon get his dick cut off? Did we need a scene where Mountain squishes Viper's eyes? What show you're think you are watching? World of GoT is an awful place. Rape is part of that world the same way intricacy, incest, torture, murder or any other awful thing that happened there is. How is rape any different than what Ramsay is doing to Theon Greyjoy? If you can't watch those things, than why are you watching GoT?

  7. #1087
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    @theimage13 I'm not exactly sure why you explaining all of this to me, I wasn't arguing about feminism, I was arguing about very specific thing that some feminist do I find extremely annoying. We are still allowed to have different opinions right?

    Also your write up is extremely demagogic, I never said that being anti rape means having a narrow point of view. I said that feminist look at movie making, and movie writing only from feminist perspective is narrow minded look at movie making. I believe film making shouldn't put feminist agenda before, for example, story telling, directors vision, etc. If writer thinks that it would make a better story arc for a character to get raped, so be it. It's the same thing when a writer kill a character off, you might not like, but it's someone else story, movie maker shouldn't conform their work to people who feel offended by it or doesn't like it. Also, you are confusing fiction and reality a little bit here. I am very much anti rape person, yet I don't think it should be omitted from displaying in cinema any more than murder is.



    How many of these feminist bloggers were working on that movie exactly? I think there was Vagina Monologues writer consulting the actresses about abuse, and kudos to her, I think she did a great job from what I saw.
    I'm explaining it because you said, and then repeated, that it's feminists you're angry with. Being anti-rape isn't a feminist view, it's an "I'm not a horrible human being" view. You don't have to be a feminist to bitch about people raping each other (after all, the ladies can rape men...they just don't do that nearly as often as men rape women).

    You went on to say that "their [the feminists from your previous sentence] very narrow point of view" is what seems to be grinding your gears, and spent the next paragraph on a rant that clearly implied that you don't understand what feminism actually means - as though it's this magical agenda that needs a special script that's been pre-approved by these people you're so angry with.

  8. #1088
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit View Post
    i hate when the public latches on to whatever new thing to be "outraged" about is "in" and start targeting things like movies and tv shows. so stupid.
    Yeah, how dare anyone be angry about rape. But thankfully that's just an "in" thing to be upset about, and soon enough people will get wound up about something else and forget about rape again. So it's all good.

    *cough*

  9. #1089
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    Quote Originally Posted by theimage13 View Post
    I'm explaining it because you said, and then repeated, that it's feminists you're angry with. Being anti-rape isn't a feminist view, it's an "I'm not a horrible human being" view. You don't have to be a feminist to bitch about people raping each other (after all, the ladies can rape men...they just don't do that nearly as often as men rape women).

    Geez, do I really need to spell out I'm talking about about fictional TV show rape, not real world actual rape? Or do you not see the difference? It would actually be awesome if as much energy and headlines went into fighting the real world female problems and not the fictional ones.

  10. #1090
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    Did we need the story where Theon get his dick cut off? Did we need a scene where Mountain squishes Viper's eyes? What show you're think you are watching? World of GoT is an awful place. Rape is part of that world the same way intricacy, incest, torture, murder or any other awful thing that happened there is. How is rape any different than what Ramsay is doing to Theon Greyjoy? If you can't watch those things, than why are you watching GoT?
    Congratulations on completely fucking missing the point I was trying to make. How could you actually read the post I wrote up there all the way through and then think you're somehow making a new fucking point by bringing up Theon's castration and sexual assault?

  11. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    Congratulations on completely fucking missing the point I was trying to make. How could you actually read the post I wrote up there all the way through and then think you're somehow making a new fucking point by bringing up Theon's castration and sexual assault?
    Again, why (or rather; for what) are you watching this, if you clearly not enjoying it? Sure we didn't need all those things, but it wouldn't be Game Of Thrones without those violent scenes, it is integral part of the story and that world in general. It's like watching Punisher and be mad that it is violent and asking why does he need to kill all those people? Does he? Probably not, but that's the story.
    Last edited by telee.kom; 05-19-2015 at 05:34 PM.

  12. #1092
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    I'm bothered by hatred for Sansa's character in general. I think the main reason why people hate her so much is that she is us.
    I don't see her as a representation of "us" at all. Quite the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by orestes View Post
    I think people loathe a character like Sansa (book or show is irrelevant) is because, in a deeply patriarchal society with a rigid class structure, she confirms to feudal gender roles. You could fault her for being naive but she grew up in a very sheltered environment, both metaphorically and geographically speaking. She's not "cool" like Brienne who subverts gender roles, although for all her physical strength, one could argue Brienne is lot more naive when it comes to politics and how people behave than Sansa.
    Yes - I loathe Sansa for being the perfect feudal feminine ideal. However, I could overlook her naiveté, weakness and passivity were it not for the fact that she chose Joffrey over her family after he threatened to kill Arya. SHE EVEN FORGAVE HIM FOR KILLING HER WOLF FFS. Her disdain for her sister, the disrespect she constantly showed her septa, the fact that she would even encourage her father to dishonor himself - completely unforgivable.

  13. #1093
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    Quote Originally Posted by theimage13 View Post
    Yeah, how dare anyone be angry about rape. But thankfully that's just an "in" thing to be upset about, and soon enough people will get wound up about something else and forget about rape again. So it's all good.

    *cough*
    And here we go. The exact thing i fucking hate. People like you is why the media can throw stupid headlines and create bullcrap conflicts when there aren't any. NO ONE is saying rape isn't a horrible thing that needs to be focused on in college campuses, work environments, etc. NO ONE is saying that.

    The problem is when the hot button topic of the moment (which this currently is) has dipshits focusing all their misguided energy on irrelevant shit like TV shows movies, and music.

  14. #1094
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    It would actually be awesome if as much energy and headlines went into fighting the real world female problems and not the fictional ones.
    What makes you think that isn't the case? Are you seriously going to be that dismissive of all the work that's been done and is still being done to advance feminism? Or do you think a person can't direct their energies to multiple causes equally? Also, headlines can't fight anything. Headlines sell.

  15. #1095
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    I agree that the Sansa scene was unnecessary but I am glad that it has people talking about rape and feminism. GOT is fiction and meant to be entertaining but a bunch of folks stopped and said "is this entertainment?" To me, it shows a much needed cultural shift on the subject.

  16. #1096
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    Jesus Christ.

    I just got done watching the episode and coming here to state my opinion and this is happening.

    First good episode from a very boring(or slow burning at least) season.

    Evil people do evil things, and that last scene is a great way of showing how evil he is.

  17. #1097
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    I know, man! People conducting critical analysis of pop culture.

  18. #1098
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    Again, why (or rather; for what) are you watching this,
    Again, you are CLEARLY missing the point of what I was saying. I don't know how, but somehow you did it (twice).

    I actually don't have a problem with the scene at the end of the last episode. Did I just blow your mind?

    Read what I said again, slow down this time, try to process what's actually being said, stop wailing about how much you hate feminism, and try to wrap your head around it.

  19. #1099
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes View Post
    it wasn't even about Sansa. The last shot of the episode panned in on Theon. The viewer is made to feel uncomfortable because of what he is being forced to witness. Pain does not belong to the woman who has to suffer it.
    while in general GoT is rape crazy, almost to the point where it just becomes background noise. both GRRM & the show writers have gone to that well too many times already - and when they do they don't always get it right. (exhibit a the lannister siblings reunion last year)

    that being said - the use of Theon as witness was (imho) well done, it conveyed the horror of the scene without actually showing the act (which again imho would have been worse) that scene is very much the sansa rape scene and not the theon standing there crying scene.

    fwiw, alfie allen absolutely nailed that scene.

  20. #1100
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    I just don't understand how the people who have read the books take special exception to what's happening here on the show.

    Yes, in the books it was different... Spoiler: It wasn't Sansa, but Jeane, an ancillary character that the reader/viewer isn't especially invested in. Somehow, to me, that makes it a little more casual of an inclusion. Even still, she's still the key to Theon's "redemption" arc in the books. And in the books, she is treated in a more graphic way (that if I remember involved dogs and Theon being added into the act at some stages).

    It's a shocking scene, but I don't understand how the readers would be alright with the material in the books, but object to what's shown on the screen. Does it have to do with personal investment in the character?

  21. #1101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Baphomette View Post
    What makes you think that isn't the case? Are you seriously going to be that dismissive of all the work that's been done and is still being done to advance feminism? Or do you think a person can't direct their energies to multiple causes equally? Also, headlines can't fight anything. Headlines sell.
    Headlines do sell, but it also is an indicator of what current mainstream feminism is concern itself about, and for me, there are quite a lot of bullshit non issues that are pushed through the media with such an audacity it really makes me wonder what are feminist priorities in 21st century. I know you guys don't like to hear that, but if half of your agenda is discussing female protagonist in a TV Shows, you might not need a movement for that, start a book club.

  22. #1102
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    Telee.kom, you don't think the media affects culture/societal relations at least as much as it reflects them? Yes, everyone agrees rape is bad but you have, even in this very thread, people questioning if that even was rape. People all agree that 'stranger in an alley forces his penis into a decently dressed woman' is rape, but change any factor in that scenario and people will start disagreeing, talking about the victim's responsibility and all that crap. It's part of the reason why I am ok with the Sansa rape scene (so to speak). It clearly (yet not graphically) shows that it is indeed rape, regardless of her agreement to marry him and acceptance that it would inevitably happen.

    Anyway,
    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Baphomette View Post
    Her disdain for her sister, the disrespect she constantly showed her septa, the fact that she would even encourage her father to dishonor himself - completely unforgivable.
    So you basically loathe her for being a teenager. Makes sense. In regards to her father, I would encourage mine to roll around in donkey shit if it meant keeping him alive. If not now, when I was a kid for sure... And it's even more reason to like her character now because she's progressed from that ditzy obnoxious girl, she's one of the characters that did the most growing (up) and is arguably one of the realest ones in the show, flaws and all.

  23. #1103
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    You know, if the argument was put in a way "let's talk about why Sansa's scene in last GoT episode was still rape", that would be something different. I still think there are plenty real life scenarios where could you discuss this topic, but okay, GoT is a popular TV show, if you want to open this discussion to general audience or younger audience this way, so be it.

    But that's not what majority of people here are having problem with. People here weren't okay with the existence of that rape scene itself. And that's just really feel stupid to me considering what show GoT is. If you would watch Love and Marriage and suddenly there was a violent rape scene I get that would just might rise an eyebrow, but in Game Of Thrones?
    Last edited by telee.kom; 05-20-2015 at 05:34 AM.

  24. #1104
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  25. #1105
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    But that's not what majority of people here are having problem with. People here weren't okay with the existence of that rape scene itself. And that's just really feel stupid to me considering what show GoT is. If you would watch Love and Marriage and suddenly there was a violent rape scene I get that would just might rise an eyebrow, but in Game Of Thrones?
    while there is something to that, heck ramsay warned us seasons ago "if you think this has a happy ending, you have not been paying attention"

    it is the nature of the beast, for their wedding night to end in anything else but a rape would not have been in character for ramsay, the boy is a one way street.

    the timing of it was *really* unfortunate though, Sansa seems to be the perpetual pawn and any time she seems to gain some ground towards her own agency (like in the tub scene w/ miranda) she's slammed back to being the helpless victim.

    ---

    all that being said, there are plenty of things to be critical about the books, show and all involved on the crative side - and the over-reliance on rape as plot point is certainly one of those things.

  26. #1106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    So you basically loathe her for being a teenager.
    No. I loathe her for being a disloyal idiot. Her sister is two years younger and is infinitely more mature and loyal to a fault. She proves it time and time again. Arya's a protector. Sansa's just a self-preservationist. I see nothing praise worthy about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by koz-ivan View Post
    there are plenty of things to be critical about the books, show and all involved on the creative side
    Which brings us back to Dorne. Do any of you think that mess can be turned around?
    Last edited by Baphomette; 05-20-2015 at 05:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Baphomette View Post
    Which brings us back to Dorne. Do any of you think that mess can be turned around?
    that's tough for me to answer, I'm so apathetic towards the entire Dorne thing I'm finding it difficult to care, and if all involved (bronn, kingslayer, & myrcella) get shipped home in tiny boxes (which I don't think will happen) at least that shows it does rain on cersi's side of the street too.

  28. #1108
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    Quote Originally Posted by koz-ivan View Post
    the timing of it was *really* unfortunate though, Sansa seems to be the perpetual pawn and any time she seems to gain some ground towards her own agency (like in the tub scene w/ miranda) she's slammed back to being the helpless victim.
    She's temporarily a hapless victim here in that scene. Her character isn't going to become some kind of shattered twitchy broken victim (like Theon) though, I'm pretty sure of that... and not just because of the hints from the "coming soon" preview clip.

    I agree with people about the sand snakes though... on a whole, it's sad casting. The actresses just can't pull it off and come across as a little silly.

  29. #1109
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    It suddenly occurred to me that Sansa has been threatened/sexually assaulted (and now raped) more than any other character.

    - Attempted gang rape in King's Landing
    - Dress ripped off and beaten by Meryn Trant
    - Warned of impending rape by Cersei/Shae during Blackwater
    Spoiler: - Threatened with rape by the Hound (books)
    - Threatened with rape by Joffrey (after marrying Tyrion)
    - Had rape ordered by Tywin
    Spoiler: - Sexually assaulted by singer at the Eyrie (books)
    - Sexually harassed by Littlefinger
    - Raped by Ramsey

    Huh.

  30. #1110
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    I think it's too early to condemn the scene, it really depends on whether Sansa has evolved to a point where the her treatment actually has consequences for her enemies. I hope that's going to be the case within this season. Only if it doesn't, then the scene was the kind of gratuious sexual violence of which it is being accused.
    Feminist critiques are, in this case, a bit beside the point. I guess one can have two opinions: Does one watch the show because it is such a gritty, cold reflection of medieval times (a bit of an adult fairy tale), or because one regards it as a parallel to our present time? In the former case, a feminist critique is ahistorical, there simply was no feminist thinking in the medieval age. In the latter case, one could complain about the scene though, for the reasons already mentioned. I'm critical of the second view because it leads to Buzzfeed articles like "What can Tywin Lannister tell us about U.S. presidents?" or something like that.
    About Dorne, I already found it funny when the books (appendix of book 2?) first mentioned that Oberyn had 8 daughters. It reminded me a bit of greek mythology, where gods have 1000 children and all of them are daughters, or something like that (example: The Nereids). It's a bit silly in a "realistic" context, especially because these daughters also have a "team name" (sand snakes). Such constructions cannot be good, because there are too many people to give them unique characters. And the movies have to cut material from the book so it was bound to be a one-dimensional affair.

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