Banned
Dude, I'm working on it.Originally Posted by orestes
I also have a professional life that needs attention so I can eat, pay bills, etc.
When I get to the middle of book three and I find out what a wonderful woman Catelyn Stark really was, I'll come back to this thread and sing her praises for leaving behind her sons to go screw up the revolution for the North.
Hierba Gatera
The rest of us do, too. I guess we just read faster.
It's actually all Sansa's fault.
Last edited by Baphomette; 08-06-2013 at 12:27 AM.
Administrator
The Red Wedding would have happened because Walder Frey is a vain prick.
Banned
See, I disagree. And it's also why I said Robb is just as big of an idiot as she was.
She DID have a choice to go to Winterfell or to see Renley. Why didn't she just send someone on her behalf? Renley was one of the most level-headed dude's on the entire show. Or send a rave, at least. What's more important: her sons, or appearing in person to Lord Renley?
Lots of noblemen in Robb's army at that point. I highly doubt she was the only one who could persuade Renley to help.
I understand this. But look when Jaime finally arrived at King's Landing: well after Catelyn, Robb and his wife were killed at the wedding. Tywin was already there as far back as the end of the second season, and assuming his duties as Hand of the King. By the time Jaime arrived, Tyrion had no say in any of the power moves happening at King's Landing. Hence why I said Joffrey and Tywin not releasing the Stark girl(s).Thirdly, she released Jaime when TYRION (not Tywin) was Hand of the King pro tem. Tyrion would have released the girls because he actually does have honor. Yes, I agree she acted rashly when she released Jaime however she was acting the way any "self-respecting mother" would have.
Isn't it awesome that we have such a great television show that caters to our emotions? That's entertainment!
Banned
Oh jeez, an insult to my intelligence.
Because you know me so well, Lady Baphomette.
Administrator
Actually, no, Catelyn couldn't rightfully disobey a king's command. And she didn't travel to Renly's camp alone. In the book, one of the Freys went with her. Robb sent her as an envoy to King Renly in order to persuade him to join forces with Robb's army. She may have been a woman, but she was the mother to the King of the North and from House Tully, so her words and gestures held meaning. Asking Renly to seize claim to the Iron Throne couldn't have been done by a lesser nobleman in Robb's defenses. Plus, each house's bannermen followed orders from their noble lord, so someone like The Greatjon, for example, couldn't just leave his soldiers under someone else's command while he parlayed with Renly.
Banned
Negative.
If Robb hadn't been a complete dumbass and broken his vow to Walter for letting him cross his bridge, he'd still be alive, and probably having the sex of his life with Walter's daughter right now.
Instead, he married another woman and then had the nerve to go crawling back to Frey for another favor. Talk about being a vain prick.
That guy he beheaded for killing the Lannister kids said it best: he lost that war the moment he married the nurse.
Hierba Gatera
I saw it in the flames.
Banned
But she'll let his prized catch leave for King's Landing with ONE knight for protection/insurance? Come on.
Tyrion slaps the living shit out of Joffrey on a regular basis, and he's still alive. Pretty sure Catelyn could have told Robb the boys in Winterfell were her priority if she'd wanted to. Robb would have buckled.
Administrator
If you're going to continue discuss character motivations based solely on the tv show, then I'm going to need refreshment.
Hierba Gatera
Tyrion slapped the shit out of Joffrey when he was a Prince. He slapped him ONCE when he was King. And then Joffrey tried to have him killed.
You're not grasping the concept of honor. It's INTRINSIC to the series. It surpasses masculine/feminine roles.
Banned
Doesn't the author of the books also have a ton of control over how the shows turn out? Not my fault if his characters on the show are shadows of the characters in his books.
I'd be willing to bet 90% of the GOT audience hasn't read the first three books before seeing the first three seasons.
Banned
I grasp it just fine actually. It just amazes me how stupid the Starks are on that show. It has nothing to do with "masculine/feminine roles". You made it an issue, not me. If Headless Ned had still been alive and told Catelyn "I'll watch the kids. YOU go revolt against the king.", I'd have been all for it.
She left her sons behind. Now they have no parents. Why? Because their parents were idiots and got themselves killed. It has little to do with honor at the end.
Administrator
All I've been trying to say is once you read the books, certain characters motivations and actions will become perfectly clear. Things are changed or minimized on the television show because there just simply isn't enough time to devote to everyone's POV. (Actually, I find Robb's motivation to marryJeyneTalisa much more relatable than in the book.) If you make it as far as book four, then I fully expect you to reverse your opinion of Catelyn.
Administrator
Hierba Gatera
I don't think you do. Otherwise, you'd understand that Catelyn had no choice but to do what Robb asked of her.
That was bloody brilliant.
Last edited by Baphomette; 08-06-2013 at 01:13 AM.
Banned
I plan on reading all of the books before season four begins next year. Contrary to what that other girl said, I can read swiftly and with aplomb.All I've been trying to say is once you read the books, certain characters motivations and actions will become perfectly clear. Things are changed or minimized on the television show because there just simply isn't enough time to devote to everyone's POV. (Actually, I find Robb's motivation to marryJeyneTalisa much more relatable than in the book.) If you make it as far as book four, then I fully expect you to reverse your opinion of Catelyn.
And I'd like nothing more than to read the books and discover that the Stark family isn't the group of morons the show has led me to believe they are. If that's the case, and my outlook on them does a 180, I will gladly come back to this thread and retract my earlier statements. And the wine and refreshments will be on me
Banned
You can think whatever you want, to be honest. When you have to take swipes at my reading level just because I don't agree with something you do, I'm going to start thinking a few things myself.
Administrator
I'll bring the pie.
Hierba Gatera
I took a swipe at your reading level???
Stubby Member
You said you read faster than him, brah. Right after he slammed down that he has a life and a job and can't just sit and read books all day like you can according to him. INTERNET FIGHTS.
BACKROLLS?!
I'll sing a song about the Rat Cook.
I really hate how the show has Cersei basically shouting "I'M DOING THIS FOR MY KIDS" in every scene she's had as of late. It's... kinda not.
Throbbing Member
Heh, I sort of agree with NYRexall. I read somewhere that Littlefinger represents the capitalist class of the medieval age and he supported the Lannisters against the Baratheons because Stannis wanted to close his brothels. So when you think about it and try to determine Littlefinger's prime characteristic, it's ambition. That's the way Martin designed the character. When it comes to Walder Frey, it was obvious that his prime characteristic was the care for his offspring. Not marrying Frey's daughter was the worst thing Robb could have done. And Catelyn didn't see it either (but I haven't read book three yet, so maybe she disagrees with Robb's decision). Then again, the whole war started because Catelyn wrongly imprisoned Tyrion. And then she freed the most valuable hostage out of weakness and an appeal to honor. The Starks want their revenge, but they want it honorable, so they annoy their allies, it's really stupid. But then "too much honor to survive" was basically the whole point of Ned Stark's character. George Martin wanted to create a merciless world, but used honorable characters to introduce it to us. It's almost natural that they had to die (And they had to die because if they hadn't, Robb and Catelyn would have stayed the anchor of the narrative and the whole series would have been more a retelling of the Dune books).
Stubby Member
walder frey does not care for his offspring, so much as his own vanity. the worst thing robb could have done was to be seen as losing the war, as a result he was no longer a desirous match for frey, he may have bought himself a few more years by marrying into the frey house, but they'd have killed him as soon as he no longer served their interests.When it comes to Walder Frey, it was obvious that his prime characteristic was the care for his offspring. Not marrying Frey's daughter was the worst thing Robb could have done. And Catelyn didn't see it either (but I haven't read book three yet, so maybe she disagrees with Robb's decision).
i've seen this thought expressed on multiple occasions, yet nobody mentions the lannisters trying to kill one of her sons (twice even) prior to that imprisonment.Then again, the whole war started because Catelyn wrongly imprisoned Tyrion.
Throbbing Member
Well, why did Frey think that Robb was losing when he was undefeated in battle? Robb only lost because of Frey's treachery. One would have to imply other things that aren't in the book or the series to think that Robb's fortunes has changed. And Frey's offspring is an extension of himself. At first, I wanted to write that he cars about his genes or something like that. So of course, caring for his offspring is part of his vanity.
Also, was it ever revealed who tried to assassinate Bran with Tyrion's dagger? When Arya hides somehwere deep in the Red Keep, she overhears a conspiracy of strangely looking people who try to create a war between the Starks and the Lannisters. And it worked. The Lannisters are 'only' responsible for pushing Bran from the tower. Did Jaime know it was Bran? Also, Catelyn knew what it would mean if she imprisoned Tyrion. Jaime was probably oblivious to it and just tried to protect his affair.
Administrator
Yes, we find out who tried to kill Bran. Also, the only person Walder Frey cares about is himself and his wounded ego. In the book, Catelyn slits the throat of one of his sons, not his wife, so that should tell you how much he cares about his offspring. Hell, he can't even recall the names of all his children and grandchildren.
Throbbing Member
Interesting, that about Bran. That might change things... But it really seems that those who haven't read as far walk away with a less favorable impression of the Starks. And the story with Walder Frey's wife/son changes that as well. Though I still think Frey's family is important to him, maybe not the individuals themselves, but their function in the feudal system. And Robb basically said to Frey "Your house isn't good enough."
Hierba Gatera
I wasn't aware that the speed at which someone reads is a tender subject. I should be flogged.
Administrator
Nay, flayed!
Stubby Member
robb was winning every battle but losing the war, the lannisters were gaining in strength, with renly dead, stannis having been defeated & the alliance with the tyrells adding to lannister's strength, winterfell had already been put to the torch...
in the show, robb has to approach frey for both safe passage & more troops to make up for the strength he had already lost, and was attempting really a desperate gamble of going after casterly rock.
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