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Thread: halo twenty eight. hesitation marks. 09.03.2013

  1. #7171
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    Happy 7th birthday. Well at least for the digital release that dropped today 7 years ago.
    Probably the most polarizing release in the catalog. At the time I just saw it as the hiphop album to contrast the recently released industrial album Yeezus.

  2. #7172
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    Quote Originally Posted by brotha52 View Post
    Probably the most polarizing release in the catalog.
    I still don't understand why it's so polarizing for so many. IMO it's definitely a better "album" than The Slip (not to throw shade, I love that album too). You're right though, people seemed to either love it or hate it. Personally, I think Year Zero and the EP trilogy are superior, but it holds its own against albums like With Teeth and The Slip.
    Last edited by sonic_discord; 08-27-2020 at 02:10 PM.

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    i haven't actually re-listened to it for a while but my feeling about it is that half of it is really good, a third of it is fine, and the two songs people seem to like the most ("find my way" and "while i'm still here") are my least favorite songs trent has created outside of "capital G" (but i LOVE "black noise" so i accept that "while i'm still here" has to exist to lead into it).

    i also still prefer Welcome Oblivion over Hesitation Marks, which i only say because they came out a couple months apart.

  4. #7174
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonic_discord View Post
    I still don't understand why it's so polarizing for so many. IMO it's definitely a better "album" than The Slip (not to throw shade, I love that album too). You're right though, people seemed to either love it or hate it. Personally, I think Year Zero and the EP trilogy are superior, but it holds its own against albums like With Teeth and The Slip.
    I still think that Hesitation Marks thus far is the only record Trent has released that can rival The Fragile in terms of the sond design and quality of the production, that alone is huge, in general the album's incredibly varied, dancey, fun and angsty. almost every song has so many layers and many things happening all at once with heavy emotional weight being on almost all the songs present.

    It's a really strong record, not NIN's best but it is still incredible.

  5. #7175
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonic_discord View Post
    I still don't understand why it's so polarizing for so many. IMO it's definitely a better "album" than The Slip (not to throw shade, I love that album too). You're right though, people seemed to either love it or hate it. Personally, I think Year Zero and the EP trilogy are superior, but it holds its own against albums like With Teeth and The Slip.
    I am a huge electronic music lover of all kinds. Been listening to NIN since PHM. I really loved the trilogy, especially Not The Actual Events. I'm also a big With Teeth fan. You can't top TDS and Broken. Not The Actual Events is the closest Trent got to the classic Broken/TDS/TF/WT that I love. I haven't hated anything Trent has put out. But there is something about the Hesitation Marks/Year Zero/Welcome Oblivion sound that just leaves me a little cold. These albums sound similar to me. I just don't find them as edgy as With Teeth or Not The Actual Events, which has that chaos I love with NIN. HM/YZ/WO feel a bit more meandering to me. I do love tracks like My Violent Heart, In This Twlight, On A Wing, Satellite, In Two. I do wish the drums were livened up a bit. I love drums and beats, but I find the beats on HM/YZ/WO don't develop much and kinda stay the same. I thought Hesitation Marks tracks sounded way better with the Tension tour live band. The live band gave the tracks a breath of life and helped break up the monotonous electronic drums with some live drums. Again, they're not bad albums, but not my go-tos. If someone threw it on, I wouldn't complain. I just don't find myself compelled to go back to it as much. I do find that I enjoy it more when I'm playing it on a decent system with subs.

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    Woah, 7 years? Time flies. I still remember picking up the CD on release day and listening to it non-stop. The back half of the record has some of the coolest NIN tracks ever I think, like I Would For You and Various Methods of Escape are brilliant and both explode with intensity and emotion. Running is stupendously underrated as well. I love its tense vibe, Trent's vocals, and those scratchy guitars. All Time Low is a classic modern NIN song I reckon, it's so layered and funky!

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    Quote Originally Posted by neorev View Post
    I am a huge electronic music lover of all kinds. Been listening to NIN since PHM. I really loved the trilogy, especially Not The Actual Events. I'm also a big With Teeth fan. You can't top TDS and Broken. Not The Actual Events is the closest Trent got to the classic Broken/TDS/TF/WT that I love. I haven't hated anything Trent has put out. But there is something about the Hesitation Marks/Year Zero/Welcome Oblivion sound that just leaves me a little cold. These albums sound similar to me. I just don't find them as edgy as With Teeth or Not The Actual Events, which has that chaos I love with NIN. HM/YZ/WO feel a bit more meandering to me. I do love tracks like My Violent Heart, In This Twlight, On A Wing, Satellite, In Two. I do wish the drums were livened up a bit. I love drums and beats, but I find the beats on HM/YZ/WO don't develop much and kinda stay the same. I thought Hesitation Marks tracks sounded way better with the Tension tour live band. The live band gave the tracks a breath of life and helped break up the monotonous electronic drums with some live drums. Again, they're not bad albums, but not my go-tos. If someone threw it on, I wouldn't complain. I just don't find myself compelled to go back to it as much. I do find that I enjoy it more when I'm playing it on a decent system with subs.
    I don't know, Year Zero feels far heavier to me than With_Teeth, Slip also feels heavier than With_Teeth in many ways.

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    In a lot of ways, I see it as a follow up to TDS (tonally, to me, it works).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
    In a lot of ways, I see it as a follow up to TDS (tonally, to me, it works).
    Same and the wa ythe songs are structured also reminds me of TDS quite a bit, not with the aggression as HM doesn't really have much of that, but I can really see how it can be seen as a follow-up to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HWB View Post
    I don't know, Year Zero feels far heavier to me than With_Teeth, Slip also feels heavier than With_Teeth in many ways.
    I don't know, "heavy" is not the word that comes to mind when thinking of Year Zero. It has moments. I didn't mention The Slip in my comments because it's actually an album that has a rawness and heaviness to it. It's more in the vein of With Teeth than Year Zero or Hesitation Marks. I prefer The Slip over Year Zero, Hesitation Marks, Welcome Oblivion.

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    Maybe I'm the weirdo here, but tonally HM does not match up to TDS.
    I like HM for a few songs, and I chalk it up to decent, but lesser than WT and YZ. I don't get why people compare it to TDS, because it feels ALL over the place whereas the TDS was a much more concise concept album.

    I think the songs on HM are mostly ok, but Running annoys the hell outta me (the guitar riffs - seriously?) and I Would For You feels like this grandiose Fragile-Era-Esc song that just falls flat. The music is there, but lyrically it just isn't up to par. Everytime I listen to it, it just feels hollow.

    And I say this fully admitting there are songs on this record I really like: Various Methods of Escape is a fav. In Two/ While I'm Still Here/ Black noise are great.
    While I don't mind Disappointed/ Everything /Satellite - they disrupt the album, and people saying this is a cohesive TDS follow up to me just does not make sense me.

    I guess I don't get people saying HM was this follow up to the TDS, and I know some interviews alluded to that, but I disagree. I never understood the framing of HM in that way. Perhaps that's because I never felt that TDS needed a second act. PHM never needed one, TDS doesn't, and the Fragile doesn't. For that matter, WT and YZ were all great in their own rights. I don't get why HM was tacked onto TDS....let it be it's own thing. I suppose that was my ish. I also think the Slip is underrated while HM is lauded above it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnetic View Post
    Maybe I'm the weirdo here, but tonally HM does not match up to TDS.
    I like HM for a few songs, and I chalk it up to decent, but lesser than WT and YZ. I don't get why people compare it to TDS, because it feels ALL over the place whereas the TDS was a much more concise concept album.

    I think the songs on HM are mostly ok, but Running annoys the hell outta me (the guitar riffs - seriously?) and I Would For You feels like this grandiose Fragile-Era-Esc song that just falls flat. The music is there, but lyrically it just isn't up to par. Everytime I listen to it, it just feels hollow.

    And I say this fully admitting there are songs on this record I really like: Various Methods of Escape is a fav. In Two/ While I'm Still Here/ Black noise are great.
    While I don't mind Disappointed/ Everything /Satellite - they disrupt the album, and people saying this is a cohesive TDS follow up to me just does not make sense me.

    I guess I don't get people saying HM was this follow up to the TDS, and I know some interviews alluded to that, but I disagree. I never understood the framing of HM in that way. Perhaps that's because I never felt that TDS needed a second act. PHM never needed one, TDS doesn't, and the Fragile doesn't. For that matter, WT and YZ were all great in their own rights. I don't get why HM was tacked onto TDS....let it be it's own thing. I suppose that was my ish. I also think the Slip is underrated while HM is lauded above it.
    +1
    100% agree with you here.

    For me, the only thing that connects HM to TDS is the artwork of Russell Mills. It's like saying The Fragile is the sequel/second act to Pretty Hate Machine. They're miles apart tonally. We all learned that Fight Club did not need a sequel. Neither did TDS. As much as I love Mills' artwork, the TDS connection felt very forced to me. And I do not find HM to flow like TDS does. HM feels a bit more slapped together than a complete journey from front to back. It doesn't have that journey feel like TDS. I find the whole TDS sequel/second act angle for HM hurt HM (no pun intended) more than helped it. I would have rather it just stood as its own thing.
    Last edited by neorev; 08-29-2020 at 02:16 AM.

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    Hesitation Marks was never intended to be a direct sequel to The Downward Spiral. Its origin was Trent looking back with 2013 eyes at that album, reflecting on it and the person he was then. It's a follow-up of sorts... just not a 'part two'.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninwiki
    "I felt very aware that it's 20 years later, and I'm still that guy. I know that guy, and I feel for him. I don't resent him, I don't miss him. But how would things feel on the other side of that now, in a much more stable life place, mentally and physically, and with a new family? The incentive has changed. It's not about, 'I'm going to kill myself if I don't get this out of my head.' But the excavation and the architecture behind it, the motivation behind it, is similar."
    "For some reason, when I started working more on Hesitation Marks, I started thinking back romantically about who I was when I was writing The Downward Spiral. I was looking back on who I was then and who I am now and how things have turned out, for better or worse. That was the air the new record was born in. I was looking at the other side of how I was not always honest about who I was in the '90s — and I knew I wasn't being honest — and if you sprinkle those negative feelings with some drugs and alcohol, it's usually not a recipe for success."

    In the self-interview included with the iTunes Deluxe Edition of Hesitation Marks, Reznor spoke of the intentional link that was made between the artwork of the two albums:


    "Now in terms of making that connection more literal to Downward Spiral, the choice of reaching out to Russell Mills, later in the process, to actually provide the artwork was certainly a conscious trail of breadcrumbs. The choice of using the same font — we were making the connection here."

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    Follow-up/ redux/ second act - whatever. I don't feel a connection to the TDS at all.

    AND, I will preface that I had been on a NIN hiatus - so I wasn't rabidly consuming info about the album. I gave it a listen in 2014-2015 because I knew a new album had been released. I listened to it with mixed reviews...decided there were some songs I liked, some I didn't. And it certainly didn't feel cohesive to me.

    It wasn't until 2019 that I read those interviews about HM and TDS being referenced in some capacity, and I just thought WTF? I had experienced HM independently, and I thought it was a stand-alone, albeit weaker album like WT and YZ.

    I guess that's why I scrunch up my face a bit about HM. I don't get the association of TDS with it. Just my opinion. \_(ツ)_/
    Last edited by Magnetic; 08-29-2020 at 09:24 AM. Reason: grammer

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    I think some people take the association with Downward Spiral too literally. I know at the time there were a few people who thought it was going to be a return to that kind of sound, and were very disappointed when it turned out not to be. To me, the album is an inversion of The Downward Spiral, not a continuation. It's a reflection of that world through the lens of time and distance. It's like looking at old photos of yourself and thinking "Wow. Is that what I was like? Where was my head at during that time? Am I still that person in some ways?". I think Russell Mills' artwork also enhances that feeling. It makes me think of something that has been left behind in the elements for a while that you rediscover.

    Unfortunately, once you attach anything to a classic album, there's always going to be disappointment. Is Hesitation Marks as good as The Downward Spiral? I don't think so, but it's interesting in its own way and deserves another look.

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    Is Scary Monsters a sequel to Space Oddity? No, but there are definite connections.

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    There definitely are connections. Starting with the name Hesitation Marks which alludes to scars from wrist cuts that were just not deep enough to 'get it done'. If I remember it right the album could be seen as a tale from the Downward Spiral's character at a later age. He somehow made it through and is now at a different stage in life where things seem to work out fine. But his older self is still in the back and he is reminded of this constantly by his scars. At his core he is still not happy, but everything is more subdued and he has become emotionless.

    At least that is my interpretation of the album. Hence it is not as raw and has a cleaner feel to it. Tbe artwork by Russell Mills is of course tbe most obvious nod to the original album. And that too is not as ugly, but still very bland and even darker in tone.

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    Considering the lyrics and Trent's statements for Year Zero and Hesitation Marks, I really see the order of NIN's story going as PHM, Broken, TDS/HM, TF, WT, TS, The Trilogy then YZ.
    It just works out the best that way to me and makes the most sense when it comes to the flow of the story order (each album is basically it's own chapter).

    Order of release for each album and their sounds shouldn't be taken so literally for considering the order of the whole story (although this order "sounds" like it flows too, at least to my ears). It doesn't have to be that way anyways, it's not like that's a rule or something for each album that comes out after another to have to sound like it "flows" into one another to continue or add on to the story, even though Trent sort of does this anyways just like all the other greats like Pink Floyd and such. The order of the albums for the "story" could be just as much of a mystery as the song lyrics and story itself, especially considering Year Zero and Hesitation Marks. I'm not saying it should be listened to in this order, just saying HM could be looked at or seen as a sort of flash back album in a sense while YZ is a flash forward album. And I see Trent further experimenting with this in The Trilogy. NTAE was Trent flirting with that "past" path, AV flirting with the "present" path and BW flirting with the "future" path that they could take NIN with. Anyways just my opinion.
    Last edited by zeegrizzle; 08-30-2020 at 04:12 PM.

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    While Hesitation Marks was never meant to be a direct sequel TDS but rather an introspection about its era, I still think that you can intepret it that way if you so desire and it works rather well.

    Quote Originally Posted by SchwarzerAbt View Post
    There definitely are connections. Starting with the name Hesitation Marks which alludes to scars from wrist cuts that were just not deep enough to 'get it done'. If I remember it right the album could be seen as a tale from the Downward Spiral's character at a later age. He somehow made it through and is now at a different stage in life where things seem to work out fine. But his older self is still in the back and he is reminded of this constantly by his scars. At his core he is still not happy, but everything is more subdued and he has become emotionless.

    At least that is my interpretation of the album. Hence it is not as raw and has a cleaner feel to it. Tbe artwork by Russell Mills is of course tbe most obvious nod to the original album. And that too is not as ugly, but still very bland and even darker in tone.
    This theory in particular is really cool, pretty cool reason for the music to be sounding the way t does.

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    Hesitation Marks fits (story-wise) in-between TDS and TF (with Hurt going into The Eater Of Dreams and Black Noise going into Somewhat Damaged), but you can look at it in either way really. You can have it sit in-between TDS and TF and act as a "flash forward" album (like YZ) or you can just look at HM's place in the discography and see it as a "flash back" album. Both ways work.

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    I think this NIN album has the strongest synths/drum machines work, a lot of people say that they sound all the same, yet there are so many varieties of them throughout this record, I don't think real life drums can do this justice, real drums are nice but they don't fit to me to this very Electronic record (Even though it has a lot of use of guitars).

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    Quote Originally Posted by HWB View Post
    I think this NIN album has the strongest synths/drum machines work, a lot of people say that they sound all the same, yet there are so many varieties of them throughout this record, I don't think real life drums can do this justice, real drums are nice but they don't fit to me to this very Electronic record (Even though it has a lot of use of guitars).
    I agree especially as I much prefer the ‘festival’ version of Copy of a rather than the drum based one on the Tension tour

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    After the TDS, NIN’s lyrical and conceptual content became saturated with duality, doubles and echoes. You see it in TR’s narrative imagination but also it seemed like in real life he was losing himself to fragmented versions/identities. I think this really comes to life in WT, partly as a very real way of therapeutically reclaiming a real identity outside of NIN, but this also became an opportunity to approach NIN and TR’s fictional imaginative identity inside of NIN as some kind of split from reality but still a real living breathing thing. TR often refers to his past self as “that guy” or when performing saying he teleports back into that person who wrote that song.
    I think he has allowed himself to explore this and take it as far as he wants to go with it. It seems like some of what becomes NIN starts with TR in real life have thought experiments or soul searching about his real self and NIN as a musical act. Those explorations then seem to manifest into the imaginary flesh of NIN and TR as concepts within a narrative world. So, we end up with TR’s doubles or echoes or identities and references to NIN within NIN.
    Hesitation Marks and the Trilogy took this to a whole new level. Since we are talking about HM in relation to TDS I will focus on that. I think HM is something like Lynch’s Lost Highway. In Lost Highway, you have the idea of psychic transference manifest into flesh and blood reality. Something has happened and now a person so desperately imagines or longs for something different that the person becomes something different, only to end up being haunted by your true self and never being able to escape the momentum of that true self.
    HM to me, seems to be about real-life TR thinking about what if that version of himself had taken a different path creatively and a different path within the concept of TDS. This is huge speculation, but, based on what he has said, it seems maybe be feels that the metaphysical thing that compelled him to create the artwork that became TDS was sort of always supposed to be that way. And the fallout of that was in real life TR losing his identity, becoming a version of himself he didn’t like and struggling with addiction. Hesitation Marks is created then out of an idea that collapses in on itself because it is not what was supposed to be. So like in Lost Highway, and I think especially in the two opening and closing tracks, the character in HM and the setting of the album is not meant to be. The world of HM is sort of a plea that whatever the imputes of creation that turned into TDS could instead have been something else. And, maybe to, in real life, TR would not have to have lost himself the way he did.
    And I think this is sort of a literal thought experiment for TR the person and for NIN as expression. The person within HM is a copy and does not have much time. A sort of split from the version of TR trapped in the creation of TDS. And, in real life TR is always sort of questioning his place in the world. Am I always going to be a part of the guy who made the TDS or can I be an adult with a family and be that guy too? Those things existing at the same time and the insecurities and questions of who we really are. I think HM ends up telling us that the thing, the muse, the conduit of art, that made real life TR create TDS was sort of destine to create the artwork and the finale version of real life TR. HM splits off or looks back and gives us an alternative, but it devours itself because it was not supposed to be that way.
    We are always haunted by echoes or ghosts of our past. We can think of how things might have been, but they were not that way. And whatever it was that created the momentum for the way things were then expressed in a way that they had to. This idea or thought experiment revealed itself through HM in many different real-life ways and narrative creative ways. I even think maybe things as simple as what type of music TR thought he could or should make based on the success and sound of TDS.
    For further links to Lost Highway, there is Lynch’s video for CBH, which is very reminiscent of and even looks like the character in Lost Highway during his transfer from or back into his true self.
    Sorry this is so long; I will finish this with more movie references. I have never thought TDS was very literal in its narrative or concept. I have always thought TDS was way more Cronenberg’s Videodrome than Scorsese’s Taxi Driver. So, for me, both TDS and HM are not just literal stories of a guy self-destructing or a guy RUNNING from that self-destruction guy.

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    I think the biggest hint that HM is a parallel version of TDS is the track-list similarities.

    And the same thing happening within The Trilogy. The three different track-lists within The Trilogy are parallel as well and work as different paths or versions of NIN during that era. I always saw Over And Out as sort of the credits track to the whole Trilogy, being that 6th track and sticking out compared to the other two EP's. Sounds like it would work as a great credits song too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha 60 View Post
    So, for me, both TDS and HM are not just literal stories of a guy self-destructing or a guy RUNNING from that self-destruction guy.
    I still stand by my interpretation of TDS in which a dude buys a bunch of pigs so he can have sex with them, then moves on to iguanas later.

  26. #7196
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    Quote Originally Posted by katara View Post
    I still stand by my interpretation of TDS in which a dude buys a bunch of pigs so he can have sex with them, then moves on to iguanas later.

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    Album grew on me.

    Still can't get over the lyrics for ATL and CBH, still don't care for Everything, Black Noise and The Eater...

    But I also love the production, I love the guitar contributions of Belew & Co. and I love those instrumental demos from that "In Conversation with.." Interview.

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    This was the album that got me into NIN again. I wasn't a huge fan of The Slip and I didn't like Ghost I - IV at all, but when I heard Came Back Haunted and Copy of A, they just hit me in the gut. I was like fuck yes! And I loved the rest of the album too. I also like the connection it has to TDS. I have to admit, Everything threw me for a loop, but I dig it. It's one of those songs I have to be in the mood for. HM isn't the best NIN release, but it's still a really solid album.

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    Everytime I hear "Copy of a" I am amazed around 3:30 how it calms down, I probably mentioned this before, it's not just fade down of tracks. Reminds me of "Field of dreams" movie characters disappearing into cornfield - almost real but not completely, wait something was not normal there, what exactly happened?


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    Love the Tension live version of In Two with the band and back up vocalists

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