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Thread: halo twenty eight. hesitation marks. 09.03.2013

  1. #7141
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    Quote Originally Posted by slopesandsam View Post
    I saw someone mention on another thread that Trent has recently said that he isn't happy with HM. Is this true, and does anyone know the source?
    i don’t know where it was, but he said he doesn’t know who that guy who made it is anymore - (probably because Trump happened and maybe he felt he was resting on his laurels a bit? I don’t know). I still love HM but I certainly think there is something more fiery about the recent EPs and live performances. The Royal Festival Hall show is one of the top shows I've been to ever (maybe THE top one)
    Last edited by WorzelG; 10-01-2019 at 01:20 AM.

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    It's from an interview posted on nin.com if you scroll down far enough - Trent Reznor in conversation with Lizzy Goodman:

    OBVIOUSLY YOU’VE EXPLORED VIOLENCE AND AGGRESSION BEFORE, BUT THIS FEELS LIKE A RETURN TO THAT WAVELENGTH. AND THE SHOWS YOU PLAYED LAST YEAR FOLLOWED SUIT. THEY WERE SPARE AND LOUD AND PENETRATING. I’VE HEARD YOU TALK BEFORE ABOUT THE CHALLENGE OF REACHING PEOPLE THROUGH THE POLARIZED HAZE OF ONLINE LIFE, I WONDER IF YOU SEE NINE INCH NAILS, AND PARTICULARLY THIS MORE AGGRESSIVE SIDE OF NINE INCH NAILS, AS AN ANTIDOTE TO ALL THAT, AS A KIND OF EXISTENTIAL GREASE CUTTER. IS THAT WHERE THE NEED TO BE EXTRA ABRASIVE IS COMING FROM?

    I THINK THE IMPETUS FOR THIS TRILOGY … GOD, I SOUNDS LIKE SPINAL TAP. LOOK, WHEN I THINK BACK TO THE LAST PROPER ALBUM, HESITATION MARKS, I DON’T REALLY KNOW WHO THAT GUY IS. LIKE, MY HEAD ISN’T THERE ANYMORE. AND IT WASN’T THAT LONG AGO. WE WERE JUST INTO SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT. I’M MAKING SET LISTS FOR SHOWS COMING UP AND THERE’S VERY LITTLE ON THERE FROM THAT ALBUM BECAUSE I DON’T FEEL IT RIGHT NOW. WHEREAS, I WAS REALLY DOWN ON WITH TEETH FOR A LONG TIME BUT NOW, FOR WHATEVER REASON, IT SOUNDS GOOD TO ME. NOT THAT I LISTEN TO IT THAT MUCH BUT IT POPPED ON THE OTHER DAY AND I THOUGHT, FUCK, I FORGOT I EVEN WROTE THAT SONG.


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    It’s never really struck me before but it must be really weird being an artist of whatever description and trying to evaluate your own work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorzelG View Post
    i don’t know where it was, but he said he doesn’t know who that guy who made it is anymore - (probably because Trump happened and maybe he felt he was resting on his laurels a bit? I don’t know). I still love HM but I certainly think there is something more fiery about the recent EPs and live performances. The Royal Festival Hall show is one of the top shows I've been to ever (maybe THE top one)
    I didn't realise you were at that show as well!

  5. #7145
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    It does feel like HM came from a more optimistic place when it was written, it's still dark, but a funky kind of dark. Then the world SHAT itself and we were all reminded how fucking awful the worst people can be. Just thinking back to 2013-2014...things were OK. Trent was probably coming from the same place, things were OK, he was starting a family, work was good, the hate on soical media was manageable, the bad stuff was easily dealt with...now 5 short years later

  6. #7146
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    Yeah, to have anything to say on the album he even had to think back to his TDS era self. Or so he said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorzelG View Post
    i don’t know where it was, but he said he doesn’t know who that guy who made it is anymore - (probably because Trump happened and maybe he felt he was resting on his laurels a bit? I don’t know). I still love HM but I certainly think there is something more fiery about the recent EPs and live performances. The Royal Festival Hall show is one of the top shows I've been to ever (maybe THE top one)
    Ah, the gig where we thought the show was going to be The Fragile in full and we got trolled with Terrible Lie after The Wretched.

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    Rob Sheridan said once, "who said it's a happy album?"


    'Everything' might, on the surface, make it seem like things are cheerful... but even that song is somewhat troublesome.


    I think it's a miserable album filled with unhappiness, confusion, loss, misdirection, mental health issues, etc.... Also, the album title is a term used to describe the action of creating self inflicted wounds; tempting suicide.


    This is not an I'm the happiest I've ever been album.

  9. #7149
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorzelG View Post
    It’s never really struck me before but it must be really weird being an artist of whatever description and trying to evaluate your own work.
    i listen to my own music a lot. not out of narcissism, but because i both enjoy my work, and because i am constantly trying to learn from it so i don't repeat myself or my "mistakes"

    i know thom yorke has said he can't stand listening to radiohead (which seems so odd to me) but i'm sure that's a rare thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eversonpoe View Post
    i know thom yorke has said he can't stand listening to radiohead (which seems so odd to me) but i'm sure that's a rare thing.
    I don't think that's all that rare actually. It really just depends on where someone's head was when making an album and if they've had to listen to or play certain parts of it for a long time. Personally, I don't listen to what I make after it's out unless I really, really like what I've done, which is very rare.

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    When I listen to Hesitation Marks now, it's funny to me how so much current pop music sounds like a simpler version of this album. There's lots of moody, softer vocals with atmospheric beats and instrumentals on the radio at the moment. I could see somebody like a Lana Del Rey singing "Find My Way" or Billie Eilish performing "Satellite" and it seeming very natural for them. And while "Welcome Oblivion" doesn't sound the same as Hesitation Marks, I get that same feeling with HTDA right now too. I almost feel like WO would do far better commercially if it was released for the first time now. I'm sure commercial success no longer concerns Trent at this point in his career, but it's still interesting to think about.

    While many of younger pop acts aren't likely to be familiar enough with Trent's later work to consider Hesitation Marks an influence, I'm sure their production folks are familiar enough with something like HM to be influenced by it.

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    And don't forget how cool it was when every format had different artwork.
    The HM-era was great. So many good memories. Saw them in Milan (2013), Copenhagen and Vienna (2014) and those gigs were brutal.

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    Happy 7th birthday. Well at least for the digital release that dropped today 7 years ago.
    Probably the most polarizing release in the catalog. At the time I just saw it as the hiphop album to contrast the recently released industrial album Yeezus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brotha52 View Post
    Probably the most polarizing release in the catalog.
    I still don't understand why it's so polarizing for so many. IMO it's definitely a better "album" than The Slip (not to throw shade, I love that album too). You're right though, people seemed to either love it or hate it. Personally, I think Year Zero and the EP trilogy are superior, but it holds its own against albums like With Teeth and The Slip.
    Last edited by sonic_discord; 08-27-2020 at 02:10 PM.

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    i haven't actually re-listened to it for a while but my feeling about it is that half of it is really good, a third of it is fine, and the two songs people seem to like the most ("find my way" and "while i'm still here") are my least favorite songs trent has created outside of "capital G" (but i LOVE "black noise" so i accept that "while i'm still here" has to exist to lead into it).

    i also still prefer Welcome Oblivion over Hesitation Marks, which i only say because they came out a couple months apart.

  16. #7156
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonic_discord View Post
    I still don't understand why it's so polarizing for so many. IMO it's definitely a better "album" than The Slip (not to throw shade, I love that album too). You're right though, people seemed to either love it or hate it. Personally, I think Year Zero and the EP trilogy are superior, but it holds its own against albums like With Teeth and The Slip.
    I still think that Hesitation Marks thus far is the only record Trent has released that can rival The Fragile in terms of the sond design and quality of the production, that alone is huge, in general the album's incredibly varied, dancey, fun and angsty. almost every song has so many layers and many things happening all at once with heavy emotional weight being on almost all the songs present.

    It's a really strong record, not NIN's best but it is still incredible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonic_discord View Post
    I still don't understand why it's so polarizing for so many. IMO it's definitely a better "album" than The Slip (not to throw shade, I love that album too). You're right though, people seemed to either love it or hate it. Personally, I think Year Zero and the EP trilogy are superior, but it holds its own against albums like With Teeth and The Slip.
    I am a huge electronic music lover of all kinds. Been listening to NIN since PHM. I really loved the trilogy, especially Not The Actual Events. I'm also a big With Teeth fan. You can't top TDS and Broken. Not The Actual Events is the closest Trent got to the classic Broken/TDS/TF/WT that I love. I haven't hated anything Trent has put out. But there is something about the Hesitation Marks/Year Zero/Welcome Oblivion sound that just leaves me a little cold. These albums sound similar to me. I just don't find them as edgy as With Teeth or Not The Actual Events, which has that chaos I love with NIN. HM/YZ/WO feel a bit more meandering to me. I do love tracks like My Violent Heart, In This Twlight, On A Wing, Satellite, In Two. I do wish the drums were livened up a bit. I love drums and beats, but I find the beats on HM/YZ/WO don't develop much and kinda stay the same. I thought Hesitation Marks tracks sounded way better with the Tension tour live band. The live band gave the tracks a breath of life and helped break up the monotonous electronic drums with some live drums. Again, they're not bad albums, but not my go-tos. If someone threw it on, I wouldn't complain. I just don't find myself compelled to go back to it as much. I do find that I enjoy it more when I'm playing it on a decent system with subs.

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    Woah, 7 years? Time flies. I still remember picking up the CD on release day and listening to it non-stop. The back half of the record has some of the coolest NIN tracks ever I think, like I Would For You and Various Methods of Escape are brilliant and both explode with intensity and emotion. Running is stupendously underrated as well. I love its tense vibe, Trent's vocals, and those scratchy guitars. All Time Low is a classic modern NIN song I reckon, it's so layered and funky!

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    Quote Originally Posted by neorev View Post
    I am a huge electronic music lover of all kinds. Been listening to NIN since PHM. I really loved the trilogy, especially Not The Actual Events. I'm also a big With Teeth fan. You can't top TDS and Broken. Not The Actual Events is the closest Trent got to the classic Broken/TDS/TF/WT that I love. I haven't hated anything Trent has put out. But there is something about the Hesitation Marks/Year Zero/Welcome Oblivion sound that just leaves me a little cold. These albums sound similar to me. I just don't find them as edgy as With Teeth or Not The Actual Events, which has that chaos I love with NIN. HM/YZ/WO feel a bit more meandering to me. I do love tracks like My Violent Heart, In This Twlight, On A Wing, Satellite, In Two. I do wish the drums were livened up a bit. I love drums and beats, but I find the beats on HM/YZ/WO don't develop much and kinda stay the same. I thought Hesitation Marks tracks sounded way better with the Tension tour live band. The live band gave the tracks a breath of life and helped break up the monotonous electronic drums with some live drums. Again, they're not bad albums, but not my go-tos. If someone threw it on, I wouldn't complain. I just don't find myself compelled to go back to it as much. I do find that I enjoy it more when I'm playing it on a decent system with subs.
    I don't know, Year Zero feels far heavier to me than With_Teeth, Slip also feels heavier than With_Teeth in many ways.

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    In a lot of ways, I see it as a follow up to TDS (tonally, to me, it works).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
    In a lot of ways, I see it as a follow up to TDS (tonally, to me, it works).
    Same and the wa ythe songs are structured also reminds me of TDS quite a bit, not with the aggression as HM doesn't really have much of that, but I can really see how it can be seen as a follow-up to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HWB View Post
    I don't know, Year Zero feels far heavier to me than With_Teeth, Slip also feels heavier than With_Teeth in many ways.
    I don't know, "heavy" is not the word that comes to mind when thinking of Year Zero. It has moments. I didn't mention The Slip in my comments because it's actually an album that has a rawness and heaviness to it. It's more in the vein of With Teeth than Year Zero or Hesitation Marks. I prefer The Slip over Year Zero, Hesitation Marks, Welcome Oblivion.

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    Maybe I'm the weirdo here, but tonally HM does not match up to TDS.
    I like HM for a few songs, and I chalk it up to decent, but lesser than WT and YZ. I don't get why people compare it to TDS, because it feels ALL over the place whereas the TDS was a much more concise concept album.

    I think the songs on HM are mostly ok, but Running annoys the hell outta me (the guitar riffs - seriously?) and I Would For You feels like this grandiose Fragile-Era-Esc song that just falls flat. The music is there, but lyrically it just isn't up to par. Everytime I listen to it, it just feels hollow.

    And I say this fully admitting there are songs on this record I really like: Various Methods of Escape is a fav. In Two/ While I'm Still Here/ Black noise are great.
    While I don't mind Disappointed/ Everything /Satellite - they disrupt the album, and people saying this is a cohesive TDS follow up to me just does not make sense me.

    I guess I don't get people saying HM was this follow up to the TDS, and I know some interviews alluded to that, but I disagree. I never understood the framing of HM in that way. Perhaps that's because I never felt that TDS needed a second act. PHM never needed one, TDS doesn't, and the Fragile doesn't. For that matter, WT and YZ were all great in their own rights. I don't get why HM was tacked onto TDS....let it be it's own thing. I suppose that was my ish. I also think the Slip is underrated while HM is lauded above it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnetic View Post
    Maybe I'm the weirdo here, but tonally HM does not match up to TDS.
    I like HM for a few songs, and I chalk it up to decent, but lesser than WT and YZ. I don't get why people compare it to TDS, because it feels ALL over the place whereas the TDS was a much more concise concept album.

    I think the songs on HM are mostly ok, but Running annoys the hell outta me (the guitar riffs - seriously?) and I Would For You feels like this grandiose Fragile-Era-Esc song that just falls flat. The music is there, but lyrically it just isn't up to par. Everytime I listen to it, it just feels hollow.

    And I say this fully admitting there are songs on this record I really like: Various Methods of Escape is a fav. In Two/ While I'm Still Here/ Black noise are great.
    While I don't mind Disappointed/ Everything /Satellite - they disrupt the album, and people saying this is a cohesive TDS follow up to me just does not make sense me.

    I guess I don't get people saying HM was this follow up to the TDS, and I know some interviews alluded to that, but I disagree. I never understood the framing of HM in that way. Perhaps that's because I never felt that TDS needed a second act. PHM never needed one, TDS doesn't, and the Fragile doesn't. For that matter, WT and YZ were all great in their own rights. I don't get why HM was tacked onto TDS....let it be it's own thing. I suppose that was my ish. I also think the Slip is underrated while HM is lauded above it.
    +1
    100% agree with you here.

    For me, the only thing that connects HM to TDS is the artwork of Russell Mills. It's like saying The Fragile is the sequel/second act to Pretty Hate Machine. They're miles apart tonally. We all learned that Fight Club did not need a sequel. Neither did TDS. As much as I love Mills' artwork, the TDS connection felt very forced to me. And I do not find HM to flow like TDS does. HM feels a bit more slapped together than a complete journey from front to back. It doesn't have that journey feel like TDS. I find the whole TDS sequel/second act angle for HM hurt HM (no pun intended) more than helped it. I would have rather it just stood as its own thing.
    Last edited by neorev; 08-29-2020 at 02:16 AM.

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    Hesitation Marks was never intended to be a direct sequel to The Downward Spiral. Its origin was Trent looking back with 2013 eyes at that album, reflecting on it and the person he was then. It's a follow-up of sorts... just not a 'part two'.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninwiki
    "I felt very aware that it's 20 years later, and I'm still that guy. I know that guy, and I feel for him. I don't resent him, I don't miss him. But how would things feel on the other side of that now, in a much more stable life place, mentally and physically, and with a new family? The incentive has changed. It's not about, 'I'm going to kill myself if I don't get this out of my head.' But the excavation and the architecture behind it, the motivation behind it, is similar."
    "For some reason, when I started working more on Hesitation Marks, I started thinking back romantically about who I was when I was writing The Downward Spiral. I was looking back on who I was then and who I am now and how things have turned out, for better or worse. That was the air the new record was born in. I was looking at the other side of how I was not always honest about who I was in the '90s — and I knew I wasn't being honest — and if you sprinkle those negative feelings with some drugs and alcohol, it's usually not a recipe for success."

    In the self-interview included with the iTunes Deluxe Edition of Hesitation Marks, Reznor spoke of the intentional link that was made between the artwork of the two albums:


    "Now in terms of making that connection more literal to Downward Spiral, the choice of reaching out to Russell Mills, later in the process, to actually provide the artwork was certainly a conscious trail of breadcrumbs. The choice of using the same font — we were making the connection here."

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    Follow-up/ redux/ second act - whatever. I don't feel a connection to the TDS at all.

    AND, I will preface that I had been on a NIN hiatus - so I wasn't rabidly consuming info about the album. I gave it a listen in 2014-2015 because I knew a new album had been released. I listened to it with mixed reviews...decided there were some songs I liked, some I didn't. And it certainly didn't feel cohesive to me.

    It wasn't until 2019 that I read those interviews about HM and TDS being referenced in some capacity, and I just thought WTF? I had experienced HM independently, and I thought it was a stand-alone, albeit weaker album like WT and YZ.

    I guess that's why I scrunch up my face a bit about HM. I don't get the association of TDS with it. Just my opinion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Last edited by Magnetic; 08-29-2020 at 09:24 AM. Reason: grammer

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    I think some people take the association with Downward Spiral too literally. I know at the time there were a few people who thought it was going to be a return to that kind of sound, and were very disappointed when it turned out not to be. To me, the album is an inversion of The Downward Spiral, not a continuation. It's a reflection of that world through the lens of time and distance. It's like looking at old photos of yourself and thinking "Wow. Is that what I was like? Where was my head at during that time? Am I still that person in some ways?". I think Russell Mills' artwork also enhances that feeling. It makes me think of something that has been left behind in the elements for a while that you rediscover.

    Unfortunately, once you attach anything to a classic album, there's always going to be disappointment. Is Hesitation Marks as good as The Downward Spiral? I don't think so, but it's interesting in its own way and deserves another look.

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    Is Scary Monsters a sequel to Space Oddity? No, but there are definite connections.

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    There definitely are connections. Starting with the name Hesitation Marks which alludes to scars from wrist cuts that were just not deep enough to 'get it done'. If I remember it right the album could be seen as a tale from the Downward Spiral's character at a later age. He somehow made it through and is now at a different stage in life where things seem to work out fine. But his older self is still in the back and he is reminded of this constantly by his scars. At his core he is still not happy, but everything is more subdued and he has become emotionless.

    At least that is my interpretation of the album. Hence it is not as raw and has a cleaner feel to it. Tbe artwork by Russell Mills is of course tbe most obvious nod to the original album. And that too is not as ugly, but still very bland and even darker in tone.

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    Considering the lyrics and Trent's statements for Year Zero and Hesitation Marks, I really see the order of NIN's story going as PHM, Broken, TDS/HM, TF, WT, TS, The Trilogy then YZ.
    It just works out the best that way to me and makes the most sense when it comes to the flow of the story order (each album is basically it's own chapter).

    Order of release for each album and their sounds shouldn't be taken so literally for considering the order of the whole story (although this order "sounds" like it flows too, at least to my ears). It doesn't have to be that way anyways, it's not like that's a rule or something for each album that comes out after another to have to sound like it "flows" into one another to continue or add on to the story, even though Trent sort of does this anyways just like all the other greats like Pink Floyd and such. The order of the albums for the "story" could be just as much of a mystery as the song lyrics and story itself, especially considering Year Zero and Hesitation Marks. I'm not saying it should be listened to in this order, just saying HM could be looked at or seen as a sort of flash back album in a sense while YZ is a flash forward album. And I see Trent further experimenting with this in The Trilogy. NTAE was Trent flirting with that "past" path, AV flirting with the "present" path and BW flirting with the "future" path that they could take NIN with. Anyways just my opinion.
    Last edited by zeegrizzle; 08-30-2020 at 04:12 PM.

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