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Faceplams: It's called "Lures" and you can read more about all the HM artwork here:Originally Posted by Copy_of_an_Echo
http://www.nin.wiki/Hesitation_Marks#Artwork
Active Member
It's called "Lures" and you can read more about all the HM artwork here:
http://www.nin.wiki/Hesitation_Marks#Artwork
she/her/hers
it's only the lyrical reference.
also, i know people have said this before, but seriously, learn to edit your posts. there's no reason to make two posts in the same thread a minute apart.
Stubby Member
Oh yeah you're right it said right on Mill's website. Thanks though.
lol am I tainted?
That's a good point you're right the drums don't have a lot of variation, but I feel that his use of acoustic drums in HM was sufficient since he used them often in the loudest, most painful parts of songs; the last chorus/outro. e.g. Various Methods of Escape and I Would For You.
I'm really surprised to hear that. I was very impressed by Year Zero. I was mostly entranced by Trent's subtle vocal effects as well as the very aggressive ones. I thought Year Zero was stunning.
About HM, could you point out specifically where you think the parts have been rushed? I'm just surprised to hear that because of the subtle nuances I've picked up in the album. The only place I can think of right now that have been rushed in my mind are the places where Trent just abruptly jumps from section to section, like chorus to bridge, and so forth. But I don't know, maybe that was intentional.
Who was the person on this thread who said something like Russell Mills's artwork was much better than the album it was made for.
I'm not gonna get angry and argue with you but I'm very curious as to what disappointed you about the album. I would love to know how Trent could have made it (to your ears) sound equally amazing as Russell Mills's artwork.
I compose as my hobby so it's in my best interest to hear what other people think about this kind of stuff.
How did you like the drums on the song Echoplex from The Slip? I thought it was really well done, I mean just chalk full of dynamics and variation, fills and what have you.
But yeah I mean it's true acoustic drums do give chorus's more kick. At least Trent made an effort to put on a different snare in the chorus of one of my favorite songs, VMOE. In that song he also took away and added reverb to the verse snare.
I find that even though the beats don't have much variation in HM, to me the way Trent compensates is by adding/layering extra percussive sounds. Did you notice that in the song All Time Low, the snare in the outro actually morphs slightly from a snare-ish sound, to a clapish sound, and even to a kind of clap sound with what sounds like a short little sample underneath it. I was amazed by the subtly in that.
Thank you Kris, for liking virtually every post I've made.
Last edited by Leviathant; 05-24-2015 at 08:20 PM. Reason: Seven posts in a row?
Active Member
And there's a bunch of them...
Throbbing Member
I’m not the person who said that, but I see where they may be coming from, although I’d put it differently. The album artwork for HM is fantastic, probably my favorite artwork for any nin release, it’s that good. And it strikes me as so very reminiscent of (or inspired by) TDS art that it seems a strange fit for HM which is about the furthest away from TDS as we can get within the nin discography. But I personally wouldn’t call HM disappointing, it’s just a different animal, perhaps a more tame animal.
Bent Member
TR said himself that he was thinking of TDS when recording HM, and purposefully reached out to Mills to do the artwork because of the connection.
To me as a listener, the content of HM definitely relates to TDS, beginning with the album opener, which has always sounded like "waking up in the hospital" to me.
Active Member
Yeah, it definitely connects with TDS, even if they are sonically different from one another. It's all about dealing with the aftermath.
Stubby Member
Lyrically it connects just as much if you look at it that way: He has gone down the path and now he tries to find his way back up but slowly, he realizes that this whole thing has created a duality inside of him while dealing with his addictions.
Copy Of A: I'm not as lonely as I thought I am, a lot of people have passed through those kind of torments before me and I'm not that special. Also, he's an "echo" of himself, living with the aftermath of what he's been through.
Came Back Haunted: Trent himself talking about how he had to act as that character he created for TDS and then he "came back haunted" now afraid he could go back to being that way again. Or, character-wise, how he acted as he thought he should act based on what he saw around him and how that made him go down the wrong path and now he's afraid of that.
Find My Way: Obviously about someone trying to find himself again after coming sober and/or overcoming an overdose
All Time Low: A song about the dark voices of addiction still present in his head, the danger of relapse in which he does fall (think about the end of the song). After which...:
Disappointed: The song about his frustration towards himself not being able to resist the temptation of relapse. How a relapse never feels as good as you think it will and so how disapointed he his at himself but also at the drugs he took.
Everything: The side of himself that has survived through "everything" screaming out as a way of convincing himself he did overcome his addictions thus creating a second personality
Satellite: This is the first song in which you can see a kind of dialogue between the two personalities: the one who succumbed to the addictions and the one who overcame them. One observing the other and this really works with the different sounds he uses for his voice for different parts of the lyrics.
I could go on in details but the rest of the songs are pretty much about him trying to get away from the other part of himself that succumbs to addictions and the last song is him telling the truth about himself as in saying: I can't fight this forever, I'll probably succumb again, hold me while I'm still here...and then he falls again during Black Noise...
Last edited by Indefinite_Cure; 05-28-2015 at 10:23 AM.
Active Member
The caveat being that beside YZ, every NIN record could connect to TDS lyrically, due to the autobiographical nature of the raw material...
Josh Wink was on HLAH
TDS tells a story more though, it isn't really autobiographical (at least, the latter half certainly isn't)
Active Member
Well yeah, there's a certain measure of embellishment. When his albums have a narrative, it's always a character, but that character serves to express Reznor's feelings, that's what I meant by "raw material"
Active Member
HM is more retrospective than the other albums that followed TDS though (Year Zero/Ghosts notwithstanding). The other albums feel more "in the moment". Shit's going down RIGHT NOW, as opposed to HM, which feels more like "shit went down, I'm different now, but I'm so afraid of the past coming back to haunt me". You certainly get a taste of that with the other albums, but HM is really the only album that completely encompasses that idea.
Throbbing Member
As far as subject matter, I think HM is simply about Trent reflecting on himself, and how he has changed as a person since TDS era. Not any kind of continuation of TDS album or the fictional story it told. And that’s about as deep as the connection goes between the albums, in my estimation.
Edit: I could be wrong, that’s just the way I hear the album and what I interpreted Trents comments of "I was thinking a lot about ‘The Downward Spiral’ album era, and the person I was at that time." to mean.
Last edited by Dr Channard; 05-29-2015 at 07:55 AM.
Stubby Member
Interesting. I see what you mean.
Last edited by Copy_of_an_Echo; 06-02-2015 at 01:27 AM.
Throbbing Member
I agree with this as well. I'm still hoping we'll get a tweet/post/smoke signal from Rob about the Hesitation Marks wallpapers he said they would release.
I think by making the artwork so reminiscent of TDS, it set an expectation that there would be similarities between the two records when, as you stated, they're about as far from each other as they could be. Which isn't bad, but . . . the gritty, dirty artwork style didn't really seem to fit for me with what is a very "clean" sounding record.
Banned
"middle aged man whispering angrily with his drum machine."
still the best review I have read about this album 19 months later
Active Member
^^^the reviewer sounds like someone who idolises youth and thinks there's something inherently bad about getting older
Quiet Member
Which review is this? Sounds hilarious. Probably another ageist.
Active Member
The best review you've read is one that doesn't even accurately describe the album, but whatever.
Active Member
If that's intended to be insulting, it's not. I've fallen back into this album hard.
Active Member
Or that getting older somehow removes all your problems and makes you immune to feeling anything negative or painful in life, a criticism NIN seems to have gotten since The fucking Fragile. You'd think people would have the opposite attitude, that as you age you have more reasons to be upset, but not music critics apparently.
Active Member
Well, as unfair as that excerpt sounded, you are "allowed" to be angry past your thirties, but your existential crisis and motivations for ire have supposedly deepened, and become more mature with you... The fact that Reznor tends to write in a very simplistic way (edging on naïve sometimes) makes this anger and angst look a bit too "green" for a person his age...
On the other hand, that criticism above is only really fair when talking about The Fragile or With_Teeth... Neither The Slip not Hesitation Marks sounded immature in their expressions of loss and angst to me, especially when considering that the latter is Reznor imagining an alternate timeline for himself, and writing from that perspective... And Year Zero wasn't groundbreaking when it comes to socio-political commentary, but at least it proved some awareness and concern about "serious" subjects outside the sphere of the self...
Active Member
some of the lyrics yes, but then the 0-60 seconds vitriol of the last verse of Somewhat Damaged ending with 'where the fuck were you' and those crushing guitars are some of the most affecting musical moments I've ever heard
Active Member
Then again, English is my second language, it creates a filter of sorts, making language less impactful ; I only really rely on the music, the writing has very little immediate emotional impact. It also makes it more difficult to recognize great or terrible writing. NIN had never been cringeworthy on a visceral level, it's only intellectual...
That's the reason why I very rarely listen to French music incidentally, I just can't stand the immediate embarrassment of bad writing...
Last edited by Khrz; 06-08-2015 at 11:38 AM.
Active Member
Yeah honestly the simplicity is sometimes really all it needs to have. The Fragile's by a guy who has lost his closest family member, has spent several years in intense self-doubt and had a lot of his closest friends grow to not like him or cut him off completely, a dismantling of relationships in general, delving into a deep depression, trying antidepressants and finding them numbing instead of alleviating, falling down the neck of a bottle and finding himself suffering from a bad cocaine addiction, found himself becoming very antisocial and outwardly negative to close friends, had just had his entire style and quality of life change seemingly overnight after a huge success and then had a million people saying "Oh, you're not relevant anymore" and a record label that was supposedly giving him all this freedom with his own imprint now getting demanding and frustrated with him. How are those not reasons to be angry, depressed, frustrated, anxiety-ridden? I don't know, I've never gotten the whole complaint about The Fragile seeming childish or immature, and even if it is immature, why can't immaturity be something some adults deal with?
But more on topic here, I think that Hesitation Marks is a fairly adult exploration of still fighting with addiction and depression and those things weighing you down as you get older. Here you are with a wife and children and enough wealth to never work again if you play your cards right. You've got all the American ideal had to sell you. You're successful and recognized as talented and have gone from being criticized by more "prestigious" people and accused of being a passing fad to winning an Academy Award and gaining high praise from pretty much everyone as a professional and as an artist. You've been sober for a long time, you didn't kill yourself, you're still here and your life seems better than ever. But that doesn't make mental illness or issues just dissipate and disappear, and you still have your darker moments and know that there's still that thing inside of you, and if you're not careful it'll swallow you whole all over again.
"This thing that lives inside of me, will surely rise and wake/And just who you thought you used to be, all begins to bend and break," clearly Everything is happy NIN, right?
I don't know, that general subject matter of depression and addiction with age is something I've personally not seen depicted in music quite like Hesitation Marks did it. I Would For You seems like one of the most really private things Trent's written; I've always seen it as him wishing he could be a better husband and better person and finding himself fighting and arguing and still acting like that guy he tries to not be anymore. "If I could be somebody else, well I think I would for you ... And this has happened all before, and this will happen all again, and I only have myself to blame, and I only have myself to blame." There's just this really personal sense of blame and accountability for who you are and your worse parts, accepting that side of yourself as a part of yourself.
I've written a lot about how Trent's lyrics often seem to characterize and personify depression and addiction as this sort of split self, and Hesitation Marks feels like the culmination of that, where Trent's accepting that side as a part of who he is, not some exterior and independent personality. "It's getting harder to tell the two of you apart, I don't believe you can even remember which one you are." While I'm Still Here/Black Noise is like realizing you're neither of these people, you're them combined because you've always been both, and you're finally seeing that and accepting it and you know you're not going to be able to separate them forever. It's this farewell to who you are, to who you've been, to what you used to be. It's this acceptance and reconciliation that as much as you wish that person you once were wasn't really you, it was, and that's something you have to deal with.
Kind of a random aside but While I'm Still Here/Black Noise was probably the most emotionally moving song I've seen NIN play live, just over-powering beyond belief. Lisa and Sharlotte's backing vocals on Black Noise made that song even bigger than it sounds in studio.
Banned
Robert Smith did a great interview when he turned 50 about how its fucking bullshit for anyone to think because you get older you are somehow automatically more mature and not allowed to be angry and confused anymore...His point was hes as angry and confused at 50 as he was when he was 17....the great Ice Cube just said the same thing, how at 45 years old and being a millionaire, he still has the same anger he had when he was 19.....its just TR publicists/fanboys/rob boy who like to shove the "TR has matured and is happy now, hes not an angry kid anymore" nonsense...TR wasnt an angry kid when he did Fragile last time I checked. He was a 35 year old MAN
Last edited by billpulsipher; 06-08-2015 at 11:52 AM.
Active Member
I think you're so wrong here, I think Trent hates journalists who say things like 'happily married oscar winner' and say that shit, I don't think he's pushed it at all
Throbbing Member
People are criticizing HM because Trent is too old to be angry? What? Why? How? Who?
Trent is hardly ever angry on HM, it is essentially the least angry nin LP ever (-Ghosts). It has a few noisy parts sure, but don’t mistake every noise or shout for anger here, this is much more reflective in tone.
Active Member
Well, more mature hopefully, no ? There's nothing sadder than an immature forty/fifty-something.
Nobody says it means you can't be ruined by a breakup anymore, it means you don't live your relationships the same way you did when you were 20... You're more experienced, hence more mature, have a different outlook and perspective on these sorts of things.
I never said you couldn't be angry anymore, I'm 40 and I'm as pissed as I was when I was half that age, but for instance I'm aware that the issues and problems that anger me aren't as clear-cut as I thought they were back then... That's maturity, a usually natural process of growth and aging, you experience informs your opinions and outlook more and more...
Of course it's natural to be angry, or sad, or confused, it's called the human condition... But there's a point when you just can't write the lyrics for "Break Stuff" and be taken seriously anymore.
Active Member
Co-Sign. Because what's bothering me personally with NIN is not the fact that the lyrics concern those topics. It's more in the way they're adressed. It often comes off as superficial and full of cliches. And as someone who knows his NIN you've heard them a million times before.
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