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Thread: Random NIN Thoughts

  1. #14521
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    Quote Originally Posted by eversonpoe View Post
    all he had to do was change it to "down the path that we chose" or "which we chose" and it would have been fine, without losing any of its poetic sensibility
    What I'm saying is that making the tense an awkward conjugation is deliberately destabilizing and that is the poetic sensibility. "Down the path that we chose" is mere mimesis; "down the path we have chose," in that context, is poesis.

    I don't think he was forced into that corner because he couldn't come up with something less clunky, I think he put himself in that lyrical space on purpose. The fact that he emends "Line" live makes me feel like that might have been an oversight.

    Regardless, whether or not one enjoys either is up to him/her/them. But I don't think it can be argued that the lyric in "Line" is grammatically sound.

  2. #14522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesquipedalism View Post
    What I'm saying is that making the tense an awkward conjugation is deliberately destabilizing and that is the poetic sensibility. "Down the path that we chose" is mere mimesis; "down the path we have chose," in that context, is poesis.

    I don't think he was forced into that corner because he couldn't come up with something less clunky, I think he put himself in that lyrical space on purpose. The fact that he emends "Line" live makes me feel like that might have been an oversight.

    Regardless, whether or not one enjoys either is up to him/her/them. But I don't think it can be argued that the lyric in "Line" is grammatically sound.


    you're the scholar so i defer to you

  3. #14523
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    Quote Originally Posted by eversonpoe View Post

    you're the scholar so i defer to you
    Ha. Somewhere on this site there's someone whose degree is specifically in English Linguistics who'll come along and be like, "No, actually it's Dative Polypersonal Agreement and it's grammatically sound," and I will have fuckall to say about it.

  4. #14524
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    So how did he change the lyrics for the live performance?

  5. #14525
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    Quote Originally Posted by r_z View Post
    So how did he change the lyrics for the live performance?
    I believe it has always been "As far as I have gone to know what side I'm on" live. It was this the times I've seen him perform it in person and online and it's also this on Beside You in Time.

  6. #14526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesquipedalism View Post
    I believe it has always been "As far as I have gone to know what side I'm on" live. It was this the times I've seen him perform it in person and online and it's also this on Beside You in Time.
    Correct, and it’s always bugged me.

    The more I stay in here
    The more it's not so clear
    The more I stay in here
    The more I disappear
    As far as I have gone
    I knew what side I'm on / (live: To know what side I’m on)
    But now I'm not so sure
    The line begins to blur

  7. #14527
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    Personally, I think @Sesquipedalism is giving The Fragile an easy pass. "I knew what side I'm on" is equally poetic deletion, and makes more sense to me in context than "we have chose" does. "Knew/am" may feel like sloppy writing or a case of tense collision, but to my ear that's just how people talk when they describe feelings of ambiguity in the past tense. "Previously, when it came to this issue, I knew where I stand!" And in the With Teeth context, that's interesting because it speaks to the ambivalence around the narrative exploring notions of clarity — and blurring the delineation of true/false, good/evil, past/present, me/them. I'll buy James' theoretical buttressing on The Fragile's inter/intrapersonal narrative, but only in light of what TR's writing subsequently on With Teeth made much more clear and understandable. If he hadn't wrote "there is no FUCKING YOU, there is ONLY ME", it would be much harder to support your case for a multiple personality interpretation of The Fragile based purely on its own text.
    Last edited by botley; 08-02-2020 at 09:31 AM.

  8. #14528
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    Not only is Bad Witch the best in the trilogy, it's probably my personal favorite record of Trent's since With Teeth.

  9. #14529
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    Quote Originally Posted by HWB View Post
    Killing Joke

    Dave Grohl drummed on their second debut too, funilly enough, so that is probably the record to look afte when we talk about Killing Joke influences.
    Thanks for the suggestion, I just gave that record a listen and loved the production!

    The way the lyrics are sung, however, I can't seem to get into. It's the same with heavy metal for me. It sounds like Lord Krulos of Dino Riders fame stepping to the mic to my ears.


  10. #14530
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    Hey, that cartoon fucking rocks! Watched it when I was a kid.
    Killing Joke fucking rocks too.

  11. #14531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesquipedalism View Post
    Ha. Somewhere on this site there's someone whose degree is specifically in English Linguistics who'll come along and be like, "No, actually it's Dative Polypersonal Agreement and it's grammatically sound," and I will have fuckall to say about it.
    You rang?

    (Hey, if you can understand it, it's a valid enough construction. We're trained towards descriptivism!)

  12. #14532
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    Quote Originally Posted by botley View Post
    Personally, I think @Sesquipedalism is giving The Fragile an easy pass. "I knew what side I'm on" is equally poetic deletion, and makes more sense to me in context than "we have chose" does. "Knew/am" may feel like sloppy writing or a case of tense collision, but to my ear that's just how people talk when they describe feelings of ambiguity in the past tense. "Previously, when it came to this issue, I knew where I stand!" And in the With Teeth context, that's interesting because it speaks to the ambivalence around the narrative exploring notions of clarity — and blurring the delineation of true/false, good/evil, past/present, me/them. I'll buy James' theoretical buttressing on The Fragile's inter/intrapersonal narrative, but only in light of what TR's writing subsequently on With Teeth made much more clear and understandable. If he hadn't wrote "there is no FUCKING YOU, there is ONLY ME", it would be much harder to support your case for a multiple personality interpretation of The Fragile based purely on its own text.
    Fair enough, though you'll never sell me on "I knew what side I'm on" in the slightest. And somewhere on the old SLS board, I think there's at least half a record of song-by-song breakdown of The Fragile as a record with only one character I put together in early 2002. You can support the reading without extra-textual sources. I think Trent might have even prompted me to look for it in an interview or something.

  13. #14533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesquipedalism View Post
    Fair enough, though you'll never sell me on "I knew what side I'm on" in the slightest. And somewhere on the old SLS board, I think there's at least half a record of song-by-song breakdown of The Fragile as a record with only one character I put together in early 2002. You can support the reading without extra-textual sources. I think Trent might have even prompted me to look for it in an interview or something.
    I vaaaaaguely remember reading that, actually. @allegro were you around for that discussion? If I remember right, you were still going by "Beavette" at that point.

  14. #14534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endlessly View Post
    You rang?

    (Hey, if you can understand it, it's a valid enough construction. We're trained towards descriptivism!)
    What they said ^^

    Prescriptivism and descriptivism.

    (There’s no place for grammar Nazis in poetry.)
    Last edited by allegro; 08-02-2020 at 07:31 PM.

  15. #14535
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    What they said ^^

    Prescriptivism and descriptivism.

    (There’s no place for grammar Nazis in poetry.)
    As I was arguing on behalf of "down the path we have chose," I would hope it's clear I'm not exactly a grammar Nazi. My point was that the "Line" lyric doesn't seem to do a lot as a poetic conceit and doesn't get "solid construction" as a safety net. But I take @Endlessly 's point about descriptivism and bow out. And it's been noted that I appear to be very much in the minority both in being unbothered by the former and rankled by the latter.

  16. #14536
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    I can grok Shakespearean sonnets, so don’t look at ME. :-)

    “When as thine eye hath chose the dame,
    And stalled the deer that thou shouldst strike,
    Let reason rule things worthy blame,
    As well as fancy, partial might.
    Take counsel of some wiser head,
    Neither too young nor yet unwed.“
    Last edited by allegro; 08-02-2020 at 07:30 PM.

  17. #14537
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    I looked around for "playlist" topics but can't find a good recent one, so here it is... I spent 3 hours yesterday trying to put together NIN "world domination introduction" playlist and came up with this one. Not easy to select, remove, sort... with so much to choose from, and I love each one on this list and can not remove anything. Also make "album" art, balance volume (mp3gain.exe), precisely tag everything, good work! ;-) Running time: 2h40m.

    01 Something I Can Never Have.mp3 (Still)
    02 Thats What I Get.mp3
    03 Happiness in Slavery.mp3
    04 Closer.mp3 (All that could have been live)
    05 Dead Souls.mp3
    06 A Warm Place.mp3
    07 The Day The World Went Away.mp3 (CRC Sessions)
    08 La Mer.mp3 (Deviations)
    09 The Great Below.mp3 (All that could have been live)
    10 Metal.mp3
    11 Where Is Everybody.mp3
    12 And All That Could Have Been.mp3
    13 You Know What You Are.mp3
    14 Every Day Is Exactly the Same.mp3
    15 The Line Begins To Blur.mp3
    16 The Beginning of the End.mp3
    17 The Great Destroyer.mp3 (Modwheelmod)
    18 Another Version Of The Truth.mp3 (Kronos Quartet & Enrique Gonzalez Müller)
    19 In This Twilight.mp3
    20 Zero-Sum.mp3
    21 Lights In The Sky.mp3
    22 Corona Radiata.mp3
    23 Copy Of A.mp3
    24 Find My Way.mp3 (Oneohtrix Point Never Remix)
    25 While Im Still Here.mp3
    26 Black Noise.mp3
    27 Dear World.mp3
    28 LESS THAN.mp3
    29 NOT ANYMORE.mp3
    30 THE BACKGROUND WORLD.mp3
    31 Over and Out.mp3
    32 I Cant Give Everything Away.mp3
    Last edited by Substance242; Yesterday at 04:00 AM. Reason: link removed

  18. #14538
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    ^ Nice list!

    While reading it a thought came to my mind regarding La Mer. The initial Apple Music instrumental release had that few second audio glitch in it. Is the Deviations version exactly the same as the Apple Music version, only with the glitch fixed? Or does it differ even more?

  19. #14539
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    It’s the same, glitch fixed.

  20. #14540
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    I'm not so sure rock lyrics are meant to be the subject of literary criticism.

    I appreciate the discussion, of course, but it sort of feels like a fool's errand.

    I'm not saying that there aren't great, powerful, poignant lyrics in rock songs, but, in most cases, if these guys had spent their time earning advanced degrees, their music wouldn't exist.

  21. #14541
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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    I'm not so sure rock lyrics are meant to be the subject of literary criticism.

    I appreciate the discussion, of course, but it sort of feels like a fool's errand.

    I'm not saying that there aren't great, powerful, poignant lyrics in rock songs, but, in most cases, if these guys had spent their time earning advanced degrees, their music wouldn't exist.
    I disagree. Art is art. Most artists of whatever medium aren't academics, but that's neither here nor there. Artists are for making art; everyone else gets to discuss it; folks feeling literary get to cut with their critical scalpels. If we reserved critical looks at art for only that art made by esteemed scholars, we would never have insightful discussions of art. I'm not sure what pushing whole genres out of bounds would accomplish, except making literary criticism a whole lot more homogenous and less interesting.

    Plays of the Shakespearian variety were "low" art in their day. So was Poe. Watchmen was just a stupid kids' comic book until readers decided to take it seriously. Human beings create meaning and confer value by the act of seeking these things.

    And if you're looking for some more official approbation, it's worth remembering that Bob Dylan won the 2016 Nobel Prize for Literature for his rock lyrics. The academy is officially all-in on critical study of rock lyrics. As a species, we have conferred value upon this kind of art and found deep meaning in it.

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