I was nobody. Nothing.
I'm not so sure rock lyrics are meant to be the subject of literary criticism.
I appreciate the discussion, of course, but it sort of feels like a fool's errand.
I'm not saying that there aren't great, powerful, poignant lyrics in rock songs, but, in most cases, if these guys had spent their time earning advanced degrees, their music wouldn't exist.
Active Member
Been a few months since I listened to Ghosts V: Together and decided to revisit tonight while on a rainy night time drive back to my house and I immediately got sucked back into it. Did some laundry and folded clothes to the rest of the album and although I enjoyed it upon it's release earlier this year, I definitely think it's a strong listen. When rhythm section in Still Right Here comes in, I immediately get heavy Fragile vibes. Gonna make some time to put Locusts on tomorrow.
This really, really has me hoping Trent has a Ghosts I-VI box set in mind by year's end.
Active Member
Can't really seeing it getting a CD release, but you never know.Originally Posted by katara
Throbbing Member
Basically, regardless of grammar, as long a we can understand it it's valid enough! Besides, I'm sure there were several drafts of the lyrics written up first, and this is what was choosened.
Active Member
Since you seem to spend a lot of time thinking about that sort of thing, I'm curious to know what you would consider NIN's finest lyrical moments / songs...? If you'd up for commenting on that, of course.
I was nobody. Nothing.
Great points.
But, should we really judge such art based on GRAMMAR?
i guess that's more what i meant.
Kendrick Lamar won a Pulitzer for Damn, right? Part of the reason he won was for "vernacular authenticity."
I'm not sure he was overly concerned, Kendrick, i mean, about dangling participles, or incongruity of tense.
It seemed like that's what you guys were discussing. specifically: changes in tense within sentences and verses.
I'm CERTAINLY not suggesting that rock lyrics don't deserve literary criticism. I'm just saying that we shouldn't always expect perfect grammar in pop/rock/rap lyrics.
Last edited by elevenism; 08-12-2020 at 12:44 AM.
I was nobody. Nothing.
Jesus Christ.
Again, great points.
Touche
Active Member
"rain rain go away come again another day"
fucking wordsmithing right there boy. Nas is jealous.
Throbbing Member
my
moral
standing
is
laying
down
Active Member
In my opinion, debating about grammar and syntax in music misses the point. Lyrics hit you on an emotional level that can transcend any sort of logic. I tend to agree with this Brian Eno quote:
When you're dealing with ideas that are abstract or that are meant to hit on a visceral level, it can make sense to break those rules. If they fit into the confines of those rules, great, but that shouldn't necessarily be the focus."The important thing about lyrics is not exactly what they say, but that they lead you to believe they are saying something. All the best lyrics I can think of, if you question me about them, I don’t know what they’re saying, but somehow they’re very evocative. It leaves a space in which the listener can project his or her own meaning into."
Just tickles my balls!
in the back
off the side and far away is a place
where i hide where i
stay
tried to say tried to ask i needed to
all alone by myself where
were you?
how could i
ever think it's funny how everything that
swore it wouldn't change is different now just like you would always say we'll make it through then my head fell apart and where were you?
how could i
ever think
it's funny how
everything you swore would never change is different now
like you said
you and me
make it through
didn't quite
fell apart
where the fuck were you?
Just tickles my balls!
I think that definitely applies to what I posted above... gives that Somewhat Damaged ending a more frantic feel.
Also the way the lyrics are laid out for The New Flesh and Demon Seen with numbered sequences or cantos.
Throbbing Member
It's been like 4 years and Not The Actual Events stll remains one of my favorite releases from NIN ever, really up there. I love rest of the Trlogy but I absolutely adore ths EP, it's flawless to me. It's incredibly heavy, depressive and dark, has a great impact. I was so impressed with it when it came out and I am still to this day. Anyone who said that Trent someohow "lost" his fire got slapped by this monster. I cannot put it into words how much adore everything about this record. The insane scream going into a mad laugh in She's Gone Away still gives me the chills.
The Virus Inside
Totally agree. NTAE is up there and on par with "The Fragile". As bold of a statement that is. I always liked that EP, and it sounds just as good now as it did 3.5 years ago. That EP has my favourite song from the whole trilogy... "The idea of You". I always thought this song would be AMAZING in a live setting, and I was really shocked to see he never played it live. The song is just begging to be played live in front of a crowd.
I feel like NTAE has the best songs of the bunch. There is no "lull" moments. It has 5 banging tracks that you don't need to skip a single one. Sorry to say... but Bad Witch is the weakest of the bunch. Appreciate Trent for stepping outside his comfort zone to try something new, but that record fell short for me. It wasn't so much the experimental sound on say, "God break down the door", it's the 2 instrumental pieces in the middle that take me out of the record. Maybe 1 instrument piece, but 2 on a 6 track record? That's 1/3 of the record right there. Not for me.
Background World is TIGHT. Best song on Add Violence, for sure. Very, very close second to being best song of the trilogy for me too. Seems like we share similar views on NIN songs more than we share views on Manson songs, lol.
Throbbing Member
I think Bad Witch benefits the most from being played along with NTAE/AV, people say it stands really well on its own, but I think it actually benefits the most from being played with NTAE and AV, while I feel like NTAE and AV can be digested on ther own without any issues.
Not to take anything from BW, I think it's absolutely superb. but the instrumental tracks feel far better after NTAE/AV, it fits the pacing.
The Virus Inside
Thinking/talking/reminiscing about the trilogy has gotten me mad jonesin' for some new NIN material.
None of this Ghosts 5, 6 ,7, 8, 9 crap either (thems fighting words around here).
Give me some good old fashioned songs with Trent's vocals in them!
Screaming about shit mirrors! Doesn't get any better than that.
Throbbing Member
NTAE effectively reignited my fandom after a decade. I'd eagerly followed all the scoring work through that period, but hadn't really dug into any nin-proper release, except Ghosts, which I really liked. I'd give everything a cursory spin just to check in, but never felt like playing anything more than once. But NTAE really grabbed me, and prompted me to reexamine the material from the decade I'd ignored. I think I prefer Bad Witch overall - love the overall sound on that one, and I'm partial to instrumentals. But yes, NTAE is excellent.
The Virus Inside
Back to healthily disagreeing we are.
That didn't last long.
But, in all fairness (too lazy to quote the other parts), you and I's general opinion of the trilogy songs seems, pretty spot on.
"Background World" and "This isn't the place" 2 of my favs.
"Shit Mirror and "Ahead of ourselves" love, love, love these tracks.
"Less than" being a hand that feeds type song, it's OK for what it is, I don't hate it. It serves it's purpose for the sake of the trilogy.
Same feeling about "Not Anymore" it's good, just doesn't really grab me like the rest.
I still stand by that NTAE, and to a lesser extent, some of Add Violence (This isn't the place, Background world) is his best stuff since The Fragile.
I'm really excited to see where he goes next. I feel like he's reaching a second musical peak again. I feel good stuff coming from this man on the next release.
Last edited by ManBurning; 08-15-2020 at 04:10 AM.
Throbbing Member
I am a big fan of NTAE's vocals. Just, the vocals in The Trilogy in general isi something to talk about, I feel like this Trilogy saw an amazing use of his vocals, his deep, deep tones on She's Gone Away are incredibly and I doubt he would be able to do that in the 90s and sell it and it works so well, his vocal performance on that song adds so much to it, it's fucking incredible and I hope he will abuse the fuck out of his deep disturbing voice in future releases sometimes.
As for aggressive songs here...he hasn't managed to sell these pissed off vocals so well since With_Teeth in my opinion, when I heard Branches/Bones chorus...man, I honestly thought I was dreaming to hear the vocals be so effective.
I don't have a problem with spoken-word style personally, they have been kind of a part of NIN for a long time, I think it goes back to I Do Not Want This? I really like the whispery anxious use of them in The Idea Of You, they work perfectly and I cannot imagine them in any other way, it adds so much paranoia to the song which is building up to that explosive chorus.
I also think that Burning Bright's lyrics are more screamed/yelled rather than just spoken, that song is probably one of the most pissed off songs in the entire discography for me, it just presents such insane apocalyptic imagery that I can't help but be sucked in, especially when the second verse starts which is just utterly fucking insane in every way imaginable.
Also, man, those screamed vocals on Shit Mirror? Again, I cannot recall a Post-Teeth track where he sounds better, I dunno how he did it, but I was beyond impressed when his voice came in.
I don't know what "problem" I've had with Year Zero's/Slip's aggressive studio vocals, they sounded like they were "restrained" when they didn't need to be and it's not like Trent wasn't capable of more of an unrestrained performance at that point, the rehearsals for The Slip present a far more of an intense performance from him, kind of strange! Anyone else feels that way? I dunno. The best comparison is "Head Down".
Maybe it could be that those two releases didn't "distort" his vocals much? I know distortion can make your vocals sound far more aggressive, but I am not sure if it's just that, since Lettng You's vocals are distorted and I still for some reason feel that feeling as if he was holding himself back, it could just be me thinking that at the moment and I may regret making such claims about the vocals on The Slip, but yeah.
Last edited by HWB; 08-15-2020 at 04:14 AM.
The Virus Inside
Studio NIN and Live/Rehearsal NIN have always just been different beasts. He does go harder/more aggressive with some of the Slip songs Live than he does on the recording, for sure.The Slip present a far more of an intense performance from him, kind of strange! Anyone else feels that way? I dunno. The best comparison is "Head Down".
Maybe it could be that those two releases didn't "distort" his vocals much? I know distortion can make your vocals sound far more aggressive, but I am not sure if it's just that, since Lettng You's vocals are distorted and I still for some reason feel that feeling as if he was holding himself back, it could just be me thinking that at the moment and I may regret making such claims about the vocals on The Slip, but yeah.
And Head Down. Magnificent. Absolutely fan-fan-fan-tastic track!
Throbbing Member
Yeah, there always been a difference in intensity, but I feel like that difference became far bigger Post-Teeth, I feel like that With_Teeth's intensity matched their live counter-parts fairly well, but the difference became far bigger than ever after that and I am not sure why that is. I do not mean to complain or so as I do find myself something like these more "tamed" vocals, but it was an odd thing I noticed that happened during this time, which seems to have ended now though.
And indeed, Head Down is absolutely incredible.
Throbbing Member
Since a few people brought up NTAE, Add Violence and Bad Witch, I just want to chime in and say that these are three FLAWLESS Records. This output is as good if not better than anything he has ever done. I have been around since the days of The Downward Spiral which I have always considered a perfect album. But The Trilogy is exquisite. There is a depth of story to be explored, a look both outward and inward. Vocals have such a range that he has never quite explored before, the music really pushes the boundaries in new directions. It’s absolutely inspiring. If TDS was the only great thing he ever made, he should still be a legend, but to continue pushing yourself this hard, with this much passion as you age, is fantastically inspiring to me. It gives us all hope that our best days, our best work might still be ahead of us. As Trent has said, he’s always ten years ahead, and I think in a few years people will really are just how visionary these records are.
Throbbing Member
The Trilogy is equal to The Downward Spiral or The Fragile, I know many willl disagree but I think time will be really kind to these records especially when more and more people realize they are meant to be listened as a one album
Throbbing Member
And I guess I just wanted to tell you
As the light starts to fade
That you are the reason
That I am not afraid
And I guess I just wanted to mention
As the heavens will fall
We will be together soon
If we will be anything at all
Really all of Year Zero is a high-water mark for Trent lyrically in my opinion. But I feel like Trent's lyrics, in particular among musical artists, demand context for proper power. Its his delivery that gives his lyrics their true power and isolated from the music, their strength does not show nearly as strongly. Like, for instance, "And don't tell me that you care / There really isn't anything now is there?" doesn't seem so strong written out but its delivery in I Do Not Want This makes it an unforgettable line for me. Ditto for "There is no moving past / There is no better place / There is no future point in time / We will not get away" from The Background World. Read off the screen, pretty straightforward. In the song, with Trent's delivery? Unbelievably haunting.
I like Trent's lyrics, but they are generally done a disservice when isolated from the music. Interestingly enough, I think Trent's best prose writing often emerges in the hidden lyrics that were never recorded or meant to be musically arranged in the first place. The Life You Didn't Lead from the With Teeth poster is just gorgeous, and the hidden unsung lyrics in Branches/Bones, The Background World, and God Break Down the Door aren't just powerfully eerie - they're arguably some of the most important lines in the Trilogy, verging on being literal thesis statements for each release. When's he's writing to fit music, the music comes first. When the lyrics are meant to be digested separately, or dreamily spill over a soundscape without rhyming (a la The New Flesh, parts of Zero-Sum, Burning Bright (Field On Fire), The Lovers, etc), I find they leave a lingering impact all on their own.
But then again, I happen to be a huge fan of Trent's spoken word style lyrics, and fucking adore Burning Bright. I'll throw my two cents in with those singing the Trilogy's praises here, what an incredible work(s). Definitely stands tall with some of my all time favorite NIN material. I remember like two days after Ghosts V-VI came out there were people talking about how much more they liked it than the Trilogy and I thought my head might explode.
And yes Head Down fucking rules. Strong contender for best track on The Slip but that has always been a deceptively strong album.
In any case, even at his most immature, I have always appreciated the nakedly frank, open, and honest style of Trent's lyrics. He has become a better wordsmith for sure, but his lyrics have never felt anything less than genuine, warts and all. In my opinion it's far preferable to try-hard intellectual wankery where calculated pretension buries anything potentially embarrassing or threatening to a carefully cultivated image.
Stubby Member
i agree and i think you described this very well. i will even go as far as to say, TR's storytelling throughout the NIN discography has been top notch and because its been so good for so long, we need stuff like the Year Zero tv series, perhaps a tv series based on the NTAE/AV/BW trilogy as well. i feel something like these works are important in the times we live in today.
Throbbing Member
Yeah this is a perfect example of what I was talking about. His language becomes much more descriptive and evocative in these places outside the Verse-Chorus-Verse-Chorus settings. Within those settings, they serve a musical purpose as vitally as they serve a narrative purpose. Outside those settings, the art of language is more heavily emphasized. I think for Trent the music comes first - clearly he's an intelligent man in a number of ways, but his genius is his mind for music, and so I think lyrics that appropriately fill a song and carry the right tune takes precedence to him over stunning poetry. Except of course with a song like The Lovers, which began with poetry not designed to fit a song structure.
Ah I knew I could count on you to make my point better than I did! Completely on point. Just this whole response. *chef's kiss*
Even when he was grappling with the pressures of fame and following up success in the Fragility era, perhaps letting those insecurities affect his artistic judgment (in my opinion indicated by the very existence of Starfuckers, Inc., regardless of how you feel about it), the lyrical content seemed to pretty honestly reflect where he was at the time and not hide in some aloof literary subterfuge. I've always felt Where Is Everybody?, while not one of the most poetic examples of NIN lyrics, evidences this ("But for all I aspire / I am really a liar...God damn I am so tired of pretending / Of wishing I was ending / When all I'm really doing is trying to hide").
Wow, another perfect callback, I wasn't even thinking about the hidden lyrics in Ringfinger or Something I Can Never Have! You're right, those lines in the former in particular have a lingering presence to them. And they may not be on Pretty Hate Machine or Purest Feeling, but they were on the other (demo?) version of Twist!
Now that I think about it, Pretty Hate Machine has a pretty significant amount of unsung / "hidden" lyrics.
And yeah I would love to know whether The Life You Didn't Lead and Message to No One had musical forms or if they were just lyrical embellishments of With Teeth's narrative. Given The Warning on the With Teeth poster was clearly an early version of the Year Zero track (only made super evident when the With Teeth deluxe edition made people realize that there were lyrics embedded beneath the title which closely resemble the final song's), I'm leaning toward the former. Just lump them into the Holy Grail collection of lost / potentially reworked NIN songs, along with My Dead Friend, the unreleased tracks listed on that maaaaybe real With Teeth promo (Cover It Up, Good Day, The End), and most importantly, Just Do It. Oh, and any Deviations songs that had finished vocals.
This is, as usual, an extremely articulate and nuanced opinion that I 100% get. It's always hard for me to rank the NIN discography - even now I'm not positive what my absolute favorite is, despite usually leaning toward TDS as the best overall - and when it comes to hallowed ground like The Downward Spiral and The Fragile it's hard for even terrific new material compare to that audience relationship and mystique, especially when it's released like the Trilogy in a way that approaches the format and how the music will be digested so differently.
Would be very interested in finding out as well.
This is one of the reasons why Right Where It Belongs is not just a great closer, but a perfect bridge to Year Zero and the next era of Nine Inch Nails. At the close of an album all about (more or less) the long and hard road back to reality through sobriety, the final track is a quietly building recognition of how even outside the illusion of addiction, something is terribly wrong with the world - something outside of himself. No longer blinded by inner turmoil, the outer turmoil is laid bare. The With Teeth Tour visuals for the song made the political commentary lurking beneath the surface much more overt. And then, enter Year Zero, perfectly on cue.
Last edited by Deacon Blackfire; 08-15-2020 at 07:55 PM.
Active Member
I think I've said this on here before: Trent is purposefully saving Idea of You as an "oh shit" moment for us nerds on a future tour. As said that song is begging to be played live, so I think it was a very conscious decision to save it. Which is totally fair considering all the older classics he dropped on us out of nowhere in 2018. Gotta keep some in the holster.
Active Member
I wasn't prepared for a RJD2 mention in this here thread. Excellent story right there.
Spoiler: (I dug his productions for other artists more than his solo stuff, though, Deadringer included.
Have you listened to this very very underrated album? It's got a few of RJD2s best ever beats on it, imo)
Throbbing Member
Demon Seed is absolutely excellent.
Last edited by HWB; 08-17-2020 at 04:40 AM.
Throbbing Member
You know, I often wonder about genres, like what genre do specific NIN albums fit into, like, what is Hesitation Marks genre-wise? Some people call it an Electro-Industrial record yet I think it is perhaps little bit too clean for that? Maybe Synthpop/EBM with a hint of Alt Rock in some tracks? I don't know but I wonder a lot.
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