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Thread: Synthlust! (Or, how to make music without your computer)

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizfan View Post
    Crap! And I did search the previous posts to see if it had been posted before. My bad. Anyway, I wonder if they're actually trying to do something innovative with the new drum machine, or simply cash in on the fame the 808 has been getting in recent popular music.
    I'm sure they think they're doing something innovative. Roland is kind of like a car company. You're never going to see a modern, large-scale car company make a modern reproduction of a classic car. As much fun as it is to drive a loud mid-70s muscle car around, the technology in modern vehicles is so beyond that - and the mindset at Roland is that even though they're probably capable of doing something like what Korg did with the MS-20, that's moving backwards and recreating what they actually saw to be a failure. That their analog drum machines helped spawn electronic music was a fluke - their engineers were trying their hardest to make realistic sounding drums. As soon as cheap sampler chips came along, they jumped on that wagon and never looked back. If they're able to genuinely model analog circuitry in their old drum machines in such a way that they can print a chip and plug that in, they'll spend the time to do that instead of revisiting clunky old resistors and transistors. They're probably more than happy to let Korg cash in on what they see as a backwards looking fad.

    Whereas Korg have seen the kind of tinkering that people do with old stuff, and encourage them to do that with the new stuff. They release schematics for their analog equipment, and they mark solder points where you can add things like CV/Gate control. They engineer the Monotribe so that it almost has MIDI, and if you know a little bit about soldering and have the internet, you can crack it open and add MIDI yourself.

    To stretch the analogy, having a Korg is like having a desktop computer, and owning a modern Roland is like having an iPad. You can do cool stuff with both, but it's much easier to get into the guts of one of them, which will ultimately lend you greater insight into the core of what makes these machines what they are. Whether that's an important aspect to your hobby is up to the individual.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    I've never learned how to use "Song Mode" on any of my machines except for the Tempest.
    hopefully not presumptuous to post here, but given our discussion thought it was appropriate -- for my weeklybeats this week, I composed a short, minimal track on the er-1, which I then ran into my octatrack for live processing (which required quite a lot of rehearsal), and, voila

    https://soundcloud.com/aion412/janev4-3

    very pleased with the result, and almost entirely sans computer (used for recording and minimal processing only)


    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    The Tempest is phenomenal, there is nothing else like it, I don't think there ever will be anything else like it. I've used it for a couple of live performances, which is where it truly shines. This isn't a great example of a Tempest beat, but the first thing I did with it was build some sounds, make a beat, and then just explore how you can modify a single beat in realtime. I put that up on Soundcloud. That's straight out of the back of the Tempest. The only edits I did were to remove more tedious tweaks I'd done, condensing the 'jam session' down to just a few minutes of the more demonstrative sounds.

    The synthesis engine is reaaaally deep, with great modulation paths, but it takes time and planning to build drum sounds from scratch that are usable. Frankly, the preset beats just aren't that great - but I didn't buy it to use presets. If I want sweet preset analog sounds, I turn on my TR-606 or DR-110. Bringing it back around to Came Back Haunted (which, honestly, is among my least favorite NIN songs), (by a guy who works at DSI) is a much better indicator of how flexible and performable it is.

    I usually buy my gear used, on the cheap - but I pre-ordered the Tempest, even knowing that it would not be feature-complete on release date, because I wanted to put my money behind such an awesome concept. My serial number is less than 250 - but I have no idea how high Tempest serial numbers go, either. There was someone in September 2012 who had #1909 (apparently faulty), so they've gotta be up past 2500 by now. I love it and am glad to have adopted early - worth every single penny. So much so that the wifey and I put together the best hardshell case a DSI Tempest will ever know. (I'm not normally one to brag, but I have to flaunt that.)
    that case is rad!

    The Tempest looks incredible. Honestly, if I had more time I probably wouldn't hesitate to grab one, but given that I'm just scratching the surface of the Octatrack (as evidenced by the song I just posted), I think my gearlust is (almost) under control right now. that said, given all of the band recording going on right now, I'm eyeing a UAD setup…

    I mean, that's the thing about both the Tempest (apparently) and the Octatrack, these machines are so fucking deep that I could spend a full-time job just playing and practicing with them and I don't think I'd reach the bottom of them. At a certain point, it's really refreshing because it's getting me out of creative ruts to have to sit down and think logically about things, but the depth can also be crazy intimidating. But, I guess you could say the same about the piano or the violin -- we're really living in the golden age of electronic instruments.

    And that's even ignoring the modular thing, which I've managed to mainly ignore … except my little phatty with a few moog pedals.

    (also, don't be so hard on CBH, it's a pretty cool track )

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    Quote Originally Posted by screwdriver View Post
    I'm not big on Elektron's aesthetic, but they do make formidable machines. It looks like they basically adapted their existing tech to a drum machine that also allows sampling, and the inability to add your own samples was a big complaint from a certain sector of Tempest users.

    The more the merrier! I'm happy with the Tempest, but if I were looking today, I would definitely consider this new Elektron.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    I'm not big on Elektron's aesthetic, but they do make formidable machines. It looks like they basically adapted their existing tech to a drum machine that also allows sampling, and the inability to add your own samples was a big complaint from a certain sector of Tempest users.

    The more the merrier! I'm happy with the Tempest, but if I were looking today, I would definitely consider this new Elektron.
    Elektron makes amazing stuff, I've just never been satisfied with the user interface and general layout. I'm sure if I actually bought one, I'd get used to it. Can't afford to right now, but I'm sure you really can't go wrong with anything they've put out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    Elektron makes amazing stuff, I've just never been satisfied with the user interface and general layout. I'm sure if I actually bought one, I'd get used to it. Can't afford to right now, but I'm sure you really can't go wrong with anything they've put out.
    For the first week or so, I was so put off by the Octatrack's UI I regretted my purchase, but now I find it infinitely imaginative -- whether my brain re-wired itself or I just clicked in, I don't know, I'm a big fan of x0x style programming I think they do that really, really well. gonna have to keep my eye on this.

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    One thing I'll say about the Tempest... I was never, ever a fan of programming drums in any fashion but x0x, but the Tempest sequencer and interface radically changed my approach to electronic drums, and even programming basslines.

  8. #98
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    Roland Aira TR-8, it was fun watching people scramble over the slow release of your details, but I have a new sweetheart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    Roland Aira TR-8, it was fun watching people scramble over the slow release of your details, but I have a new sweetheart.
    not too shabby, but not enough to get me to jettison my little phatty yet...

    that said, I'm SUPER intrigued by the theremin apparently essentially running animoog -- http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/0...stic-theremin/

    always into new controller ideas; or rather, old controller ideas used in new ways...

  10. #100
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    just won my dream synth off ebay, for an average price. 1979 string synth, courtesy of roland:




    we are also expecting an maxed out black mpc1000 for easy drum machine sampling/use.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    I'm sure they think they're doing something innovative. Roland is kind of like a car company. You're never going to see a modern, large-scale car company make a modern reproduction of a classic car. As much fun as it is to drive a loud mid-70s muscle car around, the technology in modern vehicles is so beyond that - and the mindset at Roland is that even though they're probably capable of doing something like what Korg did with the MS-20, that's moving backwards and recreating what they actually saw to be a failure. That their analog drum machines helped spawn electronic music was a fluke - their engineers were trying their hardest to make realistic sounding drums. As soon as cheap sampler chips came along, they jumped on that wagon and never looked back. If they're able to genuinely model analog circuitry in their old drum machines in such a way that they can print a chip and plug that in, they'll spend the time to do that instead of revisiting clunky old resistors and transistors. They're probably more than happy to let Korg cash in on what they see as a backwards looking fad.

    Whereas Korg have seen the kind of tinkering that people do with old stuff, and encourage them to do that with the new stuff. They release schematics for their analog equipment, and they mark solder points where you can add things like CV/Gate control. They engineer the Monotribe so that it almost has MIDI, and if you know a little bit about soldering and have the internet, you can crack it open and add MIDI yourself.

    To stretch the analogy, having a Korg is like having a desktop computer, and owning a modern Roland is like having an iPad. You can do cool stuff with both, but it's much easier to get into the guts of one of them, which will ultimately lend you greater insight into the core of what makes these machines what they are. Whether that's an important aspect to your hobby is up to the individual.
    i generally agree with this analogy, but in general, i've always found roland gear to sound infinitely better than korg, at least in the vintage analog world. i don't mind some classic korg synths and machines, and maybe it's a bit fetishism on my part, but i've always preferred roland's line of machines and synths much more.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by frankie teardrop View Post
    i generally agree with this analogy, but in general, i've always found roland gear to sound infinitely better than korg, at least in the vintage analog world. i don't mind some classic korg synths and machines, and maybe it's a bit fetishism on my part, but i've always preferred roland's line of machines and synths much more.
    Yeah, absolutely. Roland was killing it in the 80s. While some people certainly like the Korg Monopoly, the only real go-to analog Korg was the MS-20, and even that's more of a "make weird noises" kind of device, whereas Roland's analog stuff always felt more... musical. Whether I'm talking the SH-09 or the Jupiter-8, there's something about their architecture that definitely sets them apart. And no one really cares about analog drum machines that aren't Roland. Other brands' drum machines might make for good seasoning, but a Roland drum machine can define a track (and whole genres, really).

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    And no one really cares about analog drum machines that aren't Roland.
    And that's not entirely true... there's some pieces of analog drum kit that people get really excited about. Not as many people, and they're not household names like the 808, but they're out there.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    And that's not entirely true... there's some pieces of analog drum kit that people get really excited about. Not as many people, and they're not household names like the 808, but they're out there.
    j, you couldn't even name one in your retort.

    "Aw man, you know what'd take this track to the next level? Some fuckin' Doncamatic. Yo DJ, bring that beat back!"

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    Were Linn's drum machines analog?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixer808 View Post
    Were Linn's drum machines analog?
    Nawp. The novelty of the Linn Drum was that it was the first drum machine that used digital samples of real drums.

    I'm not sure Roger Linn was involved with any analog drum machine until the Tempest.

  17. #107
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    Ahh, gotcha.

  18. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    j, you couldn't even name one in your retort.
    To be honest it's not my scene. A friend of mine had some boxy white analog drum machine made by some manufacturer I'd never heard of... nifty hi hats, shitty snare sounds. It's a niche thing. Not my niche.

    I've always used the drum machine on my Quasimidi Sirius, make some of my hi hats on my NL3... but otherwise, I would make all my drums in the computer. The Tempest is starting to become a backbone to everything I've been working on lately though.

    I love it, it's an incredible piece of gear. I just can't believe how dodgy the timing gets when you try to slave it to an external clock. It pretty much makes it unusable for me live... which is ok because I can just record my parts into Ableton and trigger them live. Still, it's amazing that the guy who created MIDI has his name on something so unreliable in the MIDI sync department. You'd figure having a tight clock on a drum machine would be pretty important. Even just timing it and letting it run on its own clock, there seems to be an occasional drift.

    Maybe my unit is messed up

  19. #109
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    I have seen a lot of complaints about the MIDI implementation. I've never used it as a slave - the way I incorporate live drum machines into my setup is kind of like a guitar - I just plug it into an amp or the PA system, and have a go. That's not how most people do though, and I definitely intend to integrate it more tightly into a wider range of MIDI instruments for a project idea that's hopefully going to emerge this year.

    It definitely feels like a machine with better hardware than software. It has live performance abilities that were unfathomable before the Tempest (drum machines were always great for sequencing but pretty terrible to 'play' live), but there's just so much under the hood, and it seems like they only have one or two guys working on the operating system for it... and they're not even dedicated resources for the project.

    Nonetheless, I can't see myself ever getting rid of it, unless I'm in some kind of financial crisis. Even with the new offerings from Elektron and Roland, they don't do what the Tempest does. I don't know that anyone will ever make anything quite like the Tempest again.

  20. #110
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    i use my drum machines like that as well- just using it to play the tracks as is (one mono channel for kicks and hats, and a separate channel for snare to add more reverb if necessary).

    i've considered slaving the juno or the bass station to the machines, but haven't gotten around to trying it yet. i actually don't love constant arpeggiation in synth/post-punk music, as i've found it to be a cliche and a crutch for sloppy, uninteresting songwriting among modern bands, but i'm curious to give it a try with the new mpc1000 we just got to see if we can explore it while still keeping bass/guitars in the mix. we haven't implemented it yet, but we're also looking forward to running @halo33 's pad system through it as well. i know it's an older piece of "new" gear, but i feel like it's underutilized and a hidden treasure outside of the hip-hop scene.

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    My Slim Phatty got delivered today. Oh god. That Moog sound... its just... amazing.

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    @frankie teardrop picks up an RS-09 and suddenly another one shows up on CL Philadelphia. But my impulse control is strong, and I must resist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    @frankie teardrop picks up an RS-09 and suddenly another one shows up on CL Philadelphia. But my impulse control is strong, and I must resist.
    that's a good price, and is in better shape than the one i just got! i'm not gonna talk you out of it...

  24. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by frankie teardrop View Post
    that's a good price, and is in better shape than the one i just got! i'm not gonna talk you out of it...
    I knowwwwww. There's a lot of stuff calling my name right now that I'm trying to ignore. There's a Fender Deluxe P Bass for the same price, which is no doubt more versatile than my very pretty Alpine White Thunderbird. I scroll past that listing and think, "Maybe I should offer $300 just to get rejected and that'll be that." But then I might offer $300 and they'll be like "Sure!"

    A dude in Brooklyn is selling his Tempest for $1300 OBO, which is a lot less than I paid for mine, and it kind of makes me want to offer $1000 cash, just to get while the getting's good. But I have a Tempest, and I don't use instruments as financial investments.

    Coming back around to Roland though, this morning, this got posted:


    Along with a video that explains that their new boxes are analog modeling, but on the component level. I don't really care about the 303 emulation or the voice transformer, but I am still pretty intrigued by the drum machine. However, the rumored price is $1,500, and that's about $1,000 more than I'd pay for a fairly uninteresting sequencer attached to the latest 808/909 emulator.

    The "Plug Out" synthesizer apparently is going to allow you to load circuit models of different old synths, and will probably come pre-loaded with SH-101 emulation. The price on this is apparently around $1,700, and for that, I'd save a few more bucks and pick up a Prophet 8.


    BUT I WILL DO NONE OF THAT UNTIL I RECORD AND RELEASE MORE SONGS WITH THE EQUIPMENT I ALREADY OWN.

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    My neighbour (who I really ought to introduce to this board) recently bought a minibrute, their second synth after a microkorg. He's principally a guitar player but uses a lot of filters.

    Anyway, I asked him how it sounded and he told me via analogy. He said: you know when you play a preset on a digi synth which is supposed to sound like a real instrument and no matter how good it sounds it still is clearly a step removed from the real thing. He said even the non emulated patches on the brute sound *real* in a way like that the digi ones don't: it's a real instrument making deep, real noises.

    I haven't heard it for myself but I liked the way he puts it.

  26. #116
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    My CZ-101 is dead. (you can hear it dying). I'm pretty bummed because I had some wacky ideas for it, and it made sounds that were very distinctly different from what my MS2000 or probably my Poly Evolver Keyboard (I don't think I mentioned that here, I got a PEK on Craigslist for $1150!) could do. Part of me wants to buy another CZ-101, but another part of me is thinking, get something modern. Next year, obvs, cuz I blew my budget on the PEK. I started watching videos of the Waldorf Blofeld, and thought that would be cool piece of kit to fill out different kind of sounds, and then I started looking at the Elektron Monomachine.

    Neither of these is as cheap as a CZ-101, of course :|

    Anyway, after picking up the PolyEvolver Keyboard, I decided that it was high time I shore up my shit, and get some boring things that make life a little easier. Picked up two Furman M-8x2 power conditioners, and hooked everything up to them. I picked up an old Yamaha MJC8 ($66.66) - 8 MIDI ins, 8 MIDI thrus, and you can store 50 different combinations of INs going to THRUs. The default patch is to have my ProjectMix IO sending MIDI out to all of the things, but I press a button and now I'm controlling my 606 with my MPD26, press another button and I'm sending the PolyEvolver's MIDI out into the ProjectMix's MIDI IN, while the ProjectMix controls everything else... you get the picture. It's pretty goddamn great.

    I got a Samson S-patch pro to replace my junkpile of a patch bay, and I don't know why I hadn't done this years ago. (Yes I do: because I was cheap.) Pro-tip: S-Patch pros are $119 everywhere... but on Amazon, if you bundle eight patch cables with the S-Patch Pro, the combined price is $90.46. I didn't really need more patch cables (especially not shitty Hosa cables) but that felt like a nice find.

    So, aside from the CZ-101 biting the dust, I think my arsenal is complete. Here's an iphone pic of my rack in it's final form (srsly) and here's most of what's plugged into it, part of a flickr set of equipment, past & present.

    My workflow's now about as impediment free as it'll ever be. I'll be piecing together some music this month.

  27. #117
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    If I were in your shoes, I'd hunt down a CZ-101. I still lean on my Sirius constantly... it's (severely) limited, outdated, and blah blah blah... but I can blow someone's mind with it... but that's because I bought it when I was a teenager and spent sleepless nights messing with it. Nothing can replace gear that you spent years familiarizing yourself with. You'll (probably) always miss it.

    ... or you could go the repair route? Any good/honest repair shops in Philly?

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    That's a tragic but awesome sounding death-rattle. I second Jinsai, as well. If you can repair it for cheap, probably best to do so if you know its ins and outs well! Unless you want to start fresh with a new keyboard, that is... Weigh them pros and cons.

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    Just realised the cz101 is very similar to my brother's cz-3000, which nobody has figured out how to program yet. What's this "phase distortion" synthesis stuff anyway? How does this practically differ from today's analogue modelling approach?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmtd View Post
    Just realised the cz101 is very similar to my brother's cz-3000, which nobody has figured out how to program yet. What's this "phase distortion" synthesis stuff anyway? How does this practically differ from today's analogue modelling approach?
    Here you go!

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