Tool

[MAD]

but you at least see where we are coming from, right?

Of course I do. And I'm sorry buddy, that wasn't targeted at you It was a general thing, I've seen people QQing about the same setlist all over the internet. It makes sense for me not to go see the same band if they have the same show and the same setlist all the time. I just don't go and leave the others see fill up the venue.

[aggroculture]

So Tool fans are whiners. Have the people whining about this fact ever listened to a Tool record? Their music is practically one long lament.

[Goldfoot]

Of course I do. And I'm sorry buddy, that wasn't targeted at you It was a general thing, I've seen people QQing about the same setlist all over the internet. It makes sense for me not to go see the same band if they have the same show and the same setlist all the time. I just don't go and leave the others see fill up the venue.

No worries, I didn't think I had done it, but I felt like replying with my perspective on the situation.

So Tool fans are whiners. Have the people whining about this fact ever listened to a Tool record? Their music is practically one long lament.

I would say that the best music made is about personal experience. We all go through some sort of pain, and music is a way of expressing, and at times overcoming, such pain. This is a fucking NIN forum, so to think we aren't aware of music as a lamentation is laughable. That doesn't mean that we can not be discontent with the attitude of most of the fans. Having said that, no matter what the subject matter is of the music, does that give the fans any reason to act in such a selfish was as they do? Does it make it right that people say they are embarrassed to admit that they like a certain band because of the way OTHER PEOPLE react to said band? Should they just take it in stride because of the message the band may (or very well may not be) trying to convey?

[seasonsinthesky]

^ don't feed the trolls

[Goldfoot]

^ don't feed the trolls

You know, I thought about that but aggro has been around for a while and I figured I'd give them the benefit of the doubt instead of writing them off as a troll. Maybe it was undeserved. I don't know.

[Harry Seaward]

It makes sense for me not to go see the same band if they have the same show and the same setlist all the time. I just don't go and leave the others see fill up the venue.

THIS.

I've seen Tool once. All this whining about the same setlist over and over gets old. I'd pay $300 to see Tool play the same setlist I saw last time. I love Tool, I love the music. If you're sooo annoyed at the setlist, let people like me, who would sell their left nut to see Tool, go instead.

[theruiner]

^^Good for you. You don't mind paying a bunch of money to see them do the exact same show, some of us do. Personally, I think it's bullshit. But hey, if you're ok with it, then by all means, go. But that doesn't mean the rest of us can't be pissed off that one of our favorite bands is still touring basically the same setlist they were doing five years ago. Some of us would really like to see them again, but not if it's the exact same thing.

[lady weetly]

^^Good for you. You don't mind paying a bunch of money to see them do the exact same show, some of us do. Personally, I think it's bullshit. But hey, if you're ok with it, then by all means, go. But that doesn't mean the rest of us can't be pissed off that one of our favorite bands is still touring basically the same setlist they were doing five years ago. Some of us would really like to see them again, but not if it's the exact same thing.

They put on a great show and I love this band, but honestly I'm not traveling for this tour to see the same show I did in 2009. I'm just going to hold off and go to other shows for the time being. I'd love a new setlist/songs, but I can wait somewhat patiently.

[bobbie solo]

I'm actually convinced that it's not Maynard that treats his fans like shit, but that it's Maynard fans that treat him like shit.

With Tool, people are pissed when they don't have variety and a lot of the old songs get neglected. With APC, people bitch at the idea of playing all of their songs on different nights so no song gets left out. For new material, they bitch when a band of his doesn't put something out, but anytime he does put something out they bitch that they don't like it. They bitch when one of his bands has downtime, and they bitch when they go on tour. They bitch when he makes money, and they bitch when he doesn't. They bitch when his music sounds too much like it did back in the day, and they bitch when it sounds too different. His fans bitch when his other fans act like total douchebags, and they bitch when Maynard acts like his fans are total douchebags. They bitch when his stage presence is boring, and they bitch when he tries to liven up his act.

That's how I see it.

to me, that's a copout argument that let's you defend any possible action by Maynard and the band. you gloss over the legit complaints people like me have, and include nonsensical complaints that i've never made or seen written by others.

who exactly is bitching when Maynard tries to liven up his act? And outside of the goofy sideshow that is Puscifer, where exactly do u see him livening anything up? he gets worse and worse on stage with Tool & APC every go-round, more and more in the background and taking more verses and parts off for whatever reason.

"With Tool, people are pissed when they don't have variety and a lot of the old songs get neglected." yeah, how is this not a valid complaint? The Australian tour setlist was awesome but extremely short. it would be cool to play a similar set on this tour, but for the money they have the nerve to charge, it should be much much longer. a $90 arena show warrants a 2 hour performance MINIMUM to me...and based on how most arena shows go, other acts agree. that shit band Avenged Sevenfold is doing arena shows right now, and playing an hour or some shit, and people are pissed.

"With APC, people bitch at the idea of playing all of their songs on different nights so no song gets left out." who said this? I think most people thought it was a cool idea, but who can be blamed for not wanting to get stuck with the goofy Emotive night? only complaints about that tour was people wishing it was longer/hit more cities.

"For new material, they bitch when a band of his doesn't put something out, but anytime he does put something out they bitch that they don't like it. They bitch when one of his bands has downtime, and they bitch when they go on tour." this makes no sense. people arent allowed to have opinions about an artists' material? and the only bitching about downtime/touring with APC & Puscifer is that most people love Tool more than anything, and it's all taking away from putting out new music from the band we love the most. it's been 5 years, u can't understand why people are antsy to hear new Tool? And to me, you can't compare it to the wait in between The Fragile & With Teeth, bc Trent was dealing with some fucked up personal issues that he had to get over and disappeared almost completely in that time. can't say the same with Tool.

"They bitch when he makes money, and they bitch when he doesn't." who is bitching when Maynard doesnt make $? again, that makes no sense. in terms of the first part, the APC ticket prices were a total ripoff considering the amount of show you ended up getting in a small venue. Total ripoff to fans that had been waiting for years to see them again. Add in the bait & switch moves with Freese and "oh, were touring Emotive 7 years later haha", and it left a bad taste in alot of people's mouths. you can't see where people are coming from?

"They bitch when his music sounds too much like it did back in the day, and they bitch when it sounds too different." the first part makes no sense. who exactly wouldnt be psyched if new APC or Tool sounded like Mer De Noms or Undertow? If you mean Puscifer, i dunno bc i dislike that project strongly.

psycho rant over.

[BenAkenobi]

isn't it probable that it's the venues who drive ticket prices high? i mean, they could think "oh this is TOOL they'll sell out no matter what we charge" and the band might be getting way less cash than fans probably think. i'm certain that if they played in my country this would be the case, tickets would definitely be $100 minimum. promoters love to rip off people, sometimes they openly say they take pride in it. and it happened that artist knew about it, got pissed off and never played here again.
about this band i can only complain about them hesitating to do a proper concert DVD. maybe they'll finally film this upcoming tour?

[Harry Seaward]

maybe they'll finally film this upcoming tour?

TOOL films every show they play in HD. The December newsletter actually hinted at a Live DVD, but it's probably a longshot.

[AgentofChaos]

Just some general comments directed at nobody in particular; I could care less that there is a new tour with no album. They haven't poked their heads in my neck of the woods since summer '09. That's almost 2 and half years and I live in a major city not some shithole. They could play the exact same set list they did then and I probably wouldn't even really notice (and I've seen the 10,000 Days tour on 3 seperate occasions). Sure, I'll be hoping for some gems like The Grudge or Third Eye that made appearances on the small tour in 2010, but it won't ruin my night not to get them or cause me to feel ripped off. Same goes for hearing some possible experimentation on a new song or two, would be awesome - but not a requirement to enjoy myself. I'm so starved to hear Lateralus live again that I bought two nights on this tour (Toronto & London), fully expect the same set list both nights and am fully ok with that since it might be quite a while before I get to see them again. Anything else is an absolute bonus. At the end of the day, you either like hearing their songs live or you don't in my opinion. For one or two nights a year of your life, how much could the repetition bother you? I don't really get it. They are still the songs you love and A LOT goes into the timing and precision to make those select songs sound as excellent as they do. The cost of the ticket is relevant to the fact that they tour with extremely expensive equipment, and that money that goes in to their light and visual show as well. You aren't going to see a band in an arena show for less than 60-70 dollars these days. If they wanted to rip their fans off they would charge 200-500 dollars like U2 and other mainstream acts charge.

I respect how Maynard and Adam and co. choose to present the band, and if you don't know by now that they are not a "jam band" then I don't what to tell you. You aren't going to see sporadic behavior on stage, you aren't going to see dynamic setlist changes, you aren't going to see Maynard being all lovey dovey with the fans because shit, he is not exactly a people person. None of this is secret information. Nor is the fact that Tool is not his number 1 priority. Everyone knows his passion right now is wine and Puscifer. Luckily for me, I dig them both. If you don't, well Maynard doesn't owe anything to Tool fans to make something that isn't exactly where his heart lies right now a top creative priority. Maybe you need to come to terms with the fact you aren't as big of a fan of the artist as you thought you were. That's ok (he can do without you, too.) I actually think it's cool he would do a Tool tour like this (to get the guys together and feel things out on the road in the early stages of the album), when clearly the fall and spring Puscifer dates are more than keeping him busy. If you really think he's that greedy and starved for cash that he is dire need of his diluted share of a 15 date tour where most of the money goes to ticketmaster, venues, concert promoters, and equipment costs, and that money is his reason for this, then clearly you haven't been paying much attention. He doesn't need the money and he doesn't exactly live a high luxury lifestyle that he needs a constant influx of cash to maintain.

Tool has always been about precision performance so at least when he does play shows with the band, the songs they do play are spot on. Make your comments about his waining voice if you must, but that is not exactly something within his control. Their last north american tour date was July 2010 (save one Hawaiin date I believe). It wasn't from a few months ago that you are seeing the same show now. The way I see it you have two choices, get over your expectations and go and enjoy hearing the tunes you supposedly love being played by masterful musicians, or realize that you aren't really much of a fan to begin with since you can't expect a band to operate solely by specific rules that YOU lay out for them. I have my negative comments like most, but everything else is just bullshit once you get to the venue, feel the rush in the air and then hear that opening riff. All I know is when Tool is in my town for a night, there is no where else I'd rather be. It's completely ok not to feel that way, but it's absolutely not Maynard or Adam's or even fucking Blair's job to make you feel that way. You either feel it or you don't. And if you don't, well I highly doubt slightly lower ticket prices or better setlists are going to change all that much for you. It's natural to be constructively critical, to suggest or hope or dream that one day the band might do one of the many things you would love to see them do, but it starts becoming unhealthy when it drastically effects your ability to enjoy going to a show. As this has been the standard for almost 10 years now, I'd say if that applies to you it's just about time to calmly and peacefully give Tool a break and move on to other things, no? What the fuck are you honestly waiting for, Maynard to find Jesus?

As far as the DVD goes, I think we will likely see some kind of documentation only once the band hangs it up for good. Maynard has always been about preserving the sanctity of the live act, and on top of that, I think the band knows they don't sound even close to as good on film as they do in person so there really isn't a need for one until the end of days when it will serve more for historical purposes than anything else.

[aggroculture]

You know, I thought about that but aggro has been around for a while and I figured I'd give them the benefit of the doubt instead of writing them off as a troll. Maybe it was undeserved. I don't know.

Haha, I must be an old troll Been shoveling cash into this band since 1993, so I reserve a right to an opinion about them. Telling people to just kick back and enjoy whatever they send our way = the trolling. Nobody's harmed by bitching about a band, if you don't want to read it, read a book instead. TBH I am very excited about their next album: I loved 10000 Days. Just don't care to see them live again at this point in time with nothing new to offer, or to pay $100 to act as their album soundcheck audience.

[think i'm a fire engine]

to me, that's a copout argument that let's you defend any possible action by Maynard and the band. you gloss over the legit complaints people like me have, and include nonsensical complaints that i've never made or seen written by others.

who exactly is bitching when Maynard tries to liven up his act? And outside of the goofy sideshow that is Puscifer, where exactly do u see him livening anything up? he gets worse and worse on stage with Tool & APC every go-round, more and more in the background and taking more verses and parts off for whatever reason.

"With Tool, people are pissed when they don't have variety and a lot of the old songs get neglected." yeah, how is this not a valid complaint? The Australian tour setlist was awesome but extremely short. it would be cool to play a similar set on this tour, but for the money they have the nerve to charge, it should be much much longer. a $90 arena show warrants a 2 hour performance MINIMUM to me...and based on how most arena shows go, other acts agree. that shit band Avenged Sevenfold is doing arena shows right now, and playing an hour or some shit, and people are pissed.

"With APC, people bitch at the idea of playing all of their songs on different nights so no song gets left out." who said this? I think most people thought it was a cool idea, but who can be blamed for not wanting to get stuck with the goofy Emotive night? only complaints about that tour was people wishing it was longer/hit more cities.

"For new material, they bitch when a band of his doesn't put something out, but anytime he does put something out they bitch that they don't like it. They bitch when one of his bands has downtime, and they bitch when they go on tour." this makes no sense. people arent allowed to have opinions about an artists' material? and the only bitching about downtime/touring with APC & Puscifer is that most people love Tool more than anything, and it's all taking away from putting out new music from the band we love the most. it's been 5 years, u can't understand why people are antsy to hear new Tool? And to me, you can't compare it to the wait in between The Fragile & With Teeth, bc Trent was dealing with some fucked up personal issues that he had to get over and disappeared almost completely in that time. can't say the same with Tool.

"They bitch when he makes money, and they bitch when he doesn't." who is bitching when Maynard doesnt make $? again, that makes no sense. in terms of the first part, the APC ticket prices were a total ripoff considering the amount of show you ended up getting in a small venue. Total ripoff to fans that had been waiting for years to see them again. Add in the bait & switch moves with Freese and "oh, were touring Emotive 7 years later haha", and it left a bad taste in alot of people's mouths. you can't see where people are coming from?

"They bitch when his music sounds too much like it did back in the day, and they bitch when it sounds too different." the first part makes no sense. who exactly wouldnt be psyched if new APC or Tool sounded like Mer De Noms or Undertow? If you mean Puscifer, i dunno bc i dislike that project strongly.

psycho rant over.

I'm not saying that there aren't gripes I have about his projects, but I think people are so personally invested in it sometimes that there is now absolutely nothing that could be done that wouldn't twist everyone's panties. I think people need to back off a bit and just realize that he puts on a show just like everyone else. There are other bands that I would tweak their setlist, but I don't see the massive indignation with them like I do with Maynard. The goofy sideshow is Maynard's way of livening things up, and those shows don't make any money but people bitch about paying for those too. The goofy Emotive show was them hitting their entire catalogue, and that's bitched about. You wanna hear the entire catalogue, as long as it's not the songs you don't like? As for the wait, it comes out when it comes out. Fans expect you to be near your death with a drug addiction before you're allowed to take time to yourself? Trent did the same thing with HTDA. All bands take time off, and it's not like you're not prepared. You know this happens cuz it happens every time between records. I heard people bitch about them not touring again after putting out Emotive, then bitched when they did. Far less people bitched about Freese leaving NIN. And I wouldn't be psyched to hear another record that sounded like their first records. 10-15 years later that sound just doesn't do it for me anymore, and there's enough people ripping off those records that I don't think they need to go back and redo them themselves . Puscifer is Maynard's attempt to get away from people's expectations that go along with his other two bands, but people bitch about that too. As far as the money verses the product, I can't comment much on that since I've never seen them live except on Youtube. You know what you'd get for what it costs. I've weighed it out and never gone. As for bitching about the material, I don't know. You're bitching now that there isn't any new material, and I guarantee when it finally comes out there'll be bitching about it.

Either way, there's really no way to untwist everyone's panties.

[theruiner]

So, in other words, we pretty much have to love everything that Maynard puts out, and be grateful for anything he does, even if we don't like it and/or feel like he's ripping off his fans, and otherwise we're a bunch of ungrateful cunts? Just be a bunch of mindless sheep, then?

[botley]

So, in other words, we pretty much have to love everything that Maynard puts out, and be grateful for anything he does, even if we don't like it and/or feel like he's ripping off his fans, and otherwise we're a bunch of ungrateful cunts? Just be a bunch of mindless sheep, then?

Of fucking course not — it's just bizarre that ignorant tossed-off comments like "it's all about the money", personal insults like "greedy shithead" referring to Keenan and "arrogant prick" referring to Jones pass muster for the discourse around this music.

Seriously, fuck off if you don't have anything more to offer than that. And at least hold off on 2012 setlist bitching until 2012 actually arrives.

[Goldfoot]

As far as the DVD goes, I think we will likely see some kind of documentation only once the band hangs it up for good. Maynard has always been about preserving the sanctity of the live act, and on top of that, I think the band knows they don't sound even close to as good on film as they do in person so there really isn't a need for one until the end of days when it will serve more for historical purposes than anything else.

They've been talking about a live DVD for a couple albums now and nothing has come of it. Until they can find a unique and fitting way to present it, it isn't going to happen. Now with the rise of Bluray, I'd say it's way more of an option, but it's still a while off. As for the rest of what you're saying, it's not as simple as sucking it up and going to see them because they barely come around or not. I would love to see them every time they come around, but I can't afford to pay $80 to do so right now, especially when the closest show is an hour and a half away. I'd be going alone, so I'd have to pay for all of the gas. That would be around $20 I figure, putting the night at somewhere around $100. If I had that much to blow, you bet I'd be there, but I don't, so I won't.

Haha, I must be an old troll Been shoveling cash into this band since 1993, so I reserve a right to an opinion about them. Telling people to just kick back and enjoy whatever they send our way = the trolling. Nobody's harmed by bitching about a band, if you don't want to read it, read a book instead. TBH I am very excited about their next album: I loved 10000 Days. Just don't care to see them live again at this point in time with nothing new to offer, or to pay $100 to act as their album soundcheck audience.

I know what you mean, I was just responding to the tone of your post and the last part of it. You made it sound like their music is just a bunch of whining itself and that expecting anything else from the fans is asinine.

[theruiner]

Of fucking course not — it's just bizarre that ignorant tossed-off comments like "it's all about the money", personal insults like "greedy shithead" referring to Keenan and "arrogant prick" referring to Jones pass muster for the discourse around this music.

I've seen a hell of a lot more discourse than just that.

Seriously, fuck off if you don't have anything more to offer than that. And at least hold off on 2012 setlist bitching until 2012 actually arrives.

I'm pretty sure it was more about the principle of the thing, at least for me. Obviously, we don't know what the 2012 set list is, but people were basically discussing the idea of them playing the same set list over and over again, which they've more or less done.

[Goldfoot]

I've seen a hell of a lot more discourse than just that.

I'm pretty sure it was more about the principle of the thing, at least for me. Obviously, we don't know what the 2012 set list is, but people were basically discussing the idea of them playing the same set list over and over again, which they've more or less done.

Exactly. On both counts. Also add to that the fact that the APC shows are about an hour long and contained mostly songs off EMOTIVE. It's perfectly understandable for people to be a little miffed after paying so much money, just to have short sets of songs that are either the same ones they've been playing, or ones that aren't even theirs. If I want to see a cover band, I go to a bar.

[Space Suicide]

Unless the new album drops in time for this (yeah right) then I wager we'll probably see the same setlist with maybe an extra song throw in/swapped or two.

[Harry Seaward]

Unless the new album drops in time for this (yeah right) then I wager we'll probably see the same setlist with maybe an extra song throw in/swapped or two.

You're probably right. Inside sources reveal that we should expect some 'setlist surprises' though. I'm sure it'll be generally the same, but 'surprises' are always nice.

Danny just revealed that Yob and Intronaut will be the openers, for the eastern and western dates respectively.

He also said they're still working on the setlist, but they may whip out Spoiler: Third Eye.

[BenAkenobi]

on post-2006 tours they didn't play Parabola, did they?

[Goldfoot]

on post-2006 tours they didn't play Parabola, did they?

I don't think they've really played it since 2002.

[AgentofChaos]

^ Yeah Goldfoot is correct they haven't as far as I'm aware.

I've seen them on three seperate tour legs since 2006 and each time there was slight variation but Parabola never made an appearance. Not including the mini 2010 tour where Third Eye, The Grudge, Intolerance, & The Patient were dusted off, these were the staples that were interchanged from 2006-2010:

Jambi Stink Fist

46 & 2

Schism

Lost Keys

Rosetta Stoned

Intension

Right in Two

Wings for Marie

10,000 Days

Flood

Aenema

Lateralus

Vicarious

The Pot

Basically all of 10,000 Days minus Lipan and Viginti and a few classics. Popular opinion somehow seems to think Pushit will be on the new set lists. Wonder if they would do the Salival version again?


Amongst any of the ones mentioned above from '10 mini tour and '11 Australian dates, my personal hope is that Opiate shows up, I'd actually I'd take anything from that EP as this year is the 20th anniversay of the record but I'm not holding my breath. I could see Swamp Song or Crawl Away happening. DRT would be fucking epic, as would any of Prison Sex, Eulogy, H, Hooker with a Penis, or of course, Ticks and Leeches. If we're lucky we might get ONE of those.

[Rdm]

I saw tool a bunch of times in 2007 and 2008 and both years I felt like they were the worst shows I been to that year. I always give them the benefit of the doubt every time they go on tour and every fucking time I'm let down. Horrible live band, IMO, that I won't get behind ever again. Maynard voice has been lost in the mix since 2007, even with APC.

[bobbie solo]

Yob opening up is very, very cool. good choice.

[Harry Seaward]

I saw tool a bunch of times in 2007 and 2008 and both years I felt like they were the worst shows I been to that year. I always give them the benefit of the doubt every time they go on tour and every fucking time I'm let down. Horrible live band, IMO, that I won't get behind ever again. Maynard voice has been lost in the mix since 2007, even with APC.

They were amazing in 2010 and Maynard's voice was fantastic for the Puscifer, Tool, and APC shows I saw in 2009, 2010, and 2011 respectively.

[Rdm]

I politely disagree. I wish I felt different about it, but I don't I think he is terrible live now.

[blackholesun]

Maynard's voice wasn't very good when I saw APC earlier this year. The band didn't sound good either. It was like watching a shitty APC cover band play APC songs (half of which were fucking covers anyway). I got a pretty cheap ticket for $25 but I'm glad I didn't pay $80 something like some of my friends did and one of my friends even bought a $60 sweatshirt! I have better quality sweatshirts I got from Target for $10 for working out...

I feel bad for the bands that open for Tool. They actually pick pretty good bands to open but Tool fans just boo or don't even listen.

Anyways, Tool pretty much makes the decision for me of whether I'm gonna see them or not - Same setlist? Check. Insane ticket prices? Check. Meh.

[seasonsinthesky]

^ agreed about the openers issue. YOB is going to destroy. remember when Meshuggah opened for them on the Lateralus tour? whine whine whine! Tool fans can be some of the most closed-minded douchebags ever.