The little things that piss you off

[playwithfire]

Yeaaah, look, I used to be pretty not-a-fan of breast implants and things like that but holy hell it doesn't matter.

Plastic surgery exists at a range of risk, and a lot of procedures are no more dangerous than getting a piercing or a tattoo. If you can afford it, and it makes you happy, and you're taking an educated risk, live your life.

We judge folks for significantly altering their appearance via surgery (or fillers or injections) when we do the same via dieting, exercise, makeup, clothing, hair, etc. It really isn't that different.

[allegro]

Absolutely. I have friends who had nose jobs and they were MUCH happier after the surgery, it changed their life in a very positive way that no amount of psychotherapy would. Obviously, it's important to have a really good surgeon in a safe medical environment and I'm still hesitant about people becoming "addicted" to plastic surgery much like people getting a tattoo (I know people who had one surgery and then had more and more to "tweak" things) but yeah it's not my business to tell them what's right or wrong, that's interfering and they wouldn't listen, anyway. I am worried about gastric bypass, but for many people it's like a miracle. It's not my life to live.

Plastic surgery became "normalized" several decades ago; that horse already left the barn.

I am addicted to "Botched" on E! and those two surgeons on that show are gifted ARTISTS.

[Khrz]

I find it sad. It's people doing plastic surgery instead of psychotherapy. Small boobs, visible inner labia or penile foreskin aren't disfigurements.

So I was on mobile earlier and packing out of work.

You're at your most vulnerable naked. There's no place left to hide from your insecurities. That's it, you're that, that's what you got to offer. And I can understand if a woman is fucking scared to have a guy look at her vagina and say "what the fuck is wrong with that thing, I'm not eating that shit". I once read a comment by a woman about a naked man wondering why his penis looked like that, and why his urethra was all gross-looking. The guy was simply uncut. It's stupid, but if I was that guy, that would fucking hurt.

And yeah, our culture is fucked up on so many levels, this shouldn't matter. Yet it does. We're not going to change society just by wishing it, meanwhile some people are fucking scared to not belong. You won't assuage their anguish by telling them "you're beautiful the way you are" because they don't believe in that, there's a whole society out there telling them the contrary, you're one voice against a consensus of millions.

I agree, it's wrong, it shouldn't work that way. But that nice sentiment doesn't bring any peace of mind to anyone. If a bit of surgery is all they need to feel like their life is at last on the right tracks, so be it.

[allegro]

meanwhile some people are fucking scared to not belong. You won't assuage their anguish by telling them "you're beautiful the way you are" because they don't believe in that, there's a whole society out there telling them the contrary, you're one voice against a consensus of millions.

According to the account of THIS WOMAN (linked above) who underwent labia surgery, it changed her life for the positive:

When I was seven years old I noticed that my inner labia started to stick out a little, and unfortunately my step-mother noticed too, and pointed it out in front of my step-sisters who laughed at me for it. The next time we had a bath together I tried to tuck myself in before they saw me but it didn't work and I was once again teased for the way my labia poked out.

After that I decided to no longer have baths with my step-sisters. I vowed to never let anyone see me naked again - and I didn't. I made sure that I always dressed myself and bathed alone.

As I grew older my labia grew longer and began to protrude even more. I was horrified and constantly thought there was something terribly wrong with me. From the age of 12 I considered surgery but I got to the point where I was so frustrated that I wasn't normal that I almost went to cut them off myself with a pair of scissors.

I was too scared to talk to anyone about it, not even a doctor. When it came to sex education in school and all the books just showed this smooth clean vagina with nothing hanging out, I believed even more that I was abnormal. I was too scared to get changed in the high school locker rooms for fear that someone would see the bulge in my underwear, I never went swimming without wearing board shorts and there was no way I could get away with wearing yoga pants.

At 16 I got my first real boyfriend and it took me 6 months to even let him touch my vagina and when he finally did, he made an offhand comment that I was 'weird and different'. This scarred me so deeply. He was the only person to have seen me naked since I was 7 years old (other than my regular female doctor). I ended up staying with him for 6 and a half years as I was so terrified that I wasn't good enough for anyone else.

I later discovered that he was a very emotionally abusive partner; he manipulated me and isolated me from all of my friends and family. When it got to the point that I realised it wasn't a healthy relationship, I tried to leave him but I was so insecure that when he said 'no one would want you the way you are', I believed him.

I had spoken to him about the surgery and he had told me that he loved me exactly the way I was, but if it was something I wanted to do for myself, then go for it. I researched all about it for years but it wasn't until I realised that the only way I was going to feel confident enough to break away from him was to go ahead with the surgery. That's when I decided it was time to get serious and get a consultation.

I did more research and that's the first time I came across a website called the Labia Library where I discovered that women come in all different shapes and sizes too. I had no idea my whole life because everything I saw while growing up only showed this perfect smooth look. My mum has a bad back so I used to help her get in and out of the bath sometimes and so I had seen her naked plenty of times and she was the same as everything else I saw, just this normal looking vagina with nothing hanging out. Even though discovering this gave me a little relief, it was too late to heal me completely, the damage had been done over a number of years and I knew that deep down, I would never truly love myself the way I was.

[allegro]

In my original example, I was specifically rankled because of the way this woman had phrased her confession. It didn't seem to be about physical discomfort; it didn't even seem to be about personal/mental discomfort (the "I guess" made me think her decision wasn't the result of her having spent a lifetime feeling unhappy with her labia). It seemed 100% done because she thought it would make lovers happier with her. Which, yes, can be said of a lot of things, but A) that's not the best reason to do anything, even if it's an entirely "normal" reason to do a lot of things, and B) this is an order of magnitude. Fake eyelashes and labiaplasty might be sort of the same sport, but they aren't the same thing.

In the end, a lot of elective surgery really isn't much different than tattooing. Which, I think serves as an argument both for and against the normalization of it. Which I say as someone with two full sleeves, a chest piece, and several unconnected tattoos on my back. I did it because I wanted to; I did it because it made me feel good; I'm glad I did it; I regret doing it; I would get rid of them if I could; I would do it again, but differently, if I could; it was the result of a sort of social pressure; it was done to make me more appealing to potential lovers; it was done for myself. All at the same time, not necessarily in that order.

The above woman did it for the same reasons in your final paragraph; if it's to "make lovers happy," then this in turn makes HER happy. It also most likely gives her great self-confidence to enable herself to be happy, and a more responsive sex partner. Ultimately, WHATEVER reason they present is every bit as good as the reason you use your body as a human canvass for tattoo art; she had her labia molded to be a work of art through her own lens.

[allegro]

Yeah, I can't disagree. But there was just something about her...resignation. As if it were a choice she couldn't avoid making? Her explanation of it--tone and posture and wording--if she'd given it to me in advance, and I were the one performing the surgery, would have just made me ask: "Are you sure you actually want to do this?"

Why would that be any different than your (vain?) view of your not-perfect nose?

Do you want nose surgery because it would be such a really fun and exciting and fantastic way to spend money and several days of black-eyed recovery? Is your septum deviated and you can't breathe at night and the procedure is medically necessary? Or, do you resign yourself to the fact that the only way you will stop obsessing about your nose it to have it fixed via surgery? Did she undergo painful surgery and an even more-painful recovery process JUST for guys? Not likely. Her motive was probably much like yours with your nose. But the tone in her voice gave you the idea that she was like a prostitute in a Dickens novel.

[allegro]

That might be overstating the statement I was making a little? Maybe more than a little?

Why? You developed your own narratives about her reasons, not entirely based on actual words from her mouth (and not considering the unsaid words that weren't in your narrative). You intuited a message via non-verbal communication (that could have really meant that it was too personal to discuss) and took it to the next step of "she's only doing this to please men." But, what's a boob job? JUST to please men? Or, to look the way you want to look? She could have given you the answer that she did because she was embarrassed for having been obsessed with something that people might think is trivial, but she didn't. So she has to now qualify her surgery with "yeah, yeah, I know, I probably shouldn't have plastic surgery." Because maybe she got a lot of shit for it from her family or friends and now this is her conciliatory comment to ward off criticism? How do you know for sure?

The odd thing that I don't think men realize is that many (most?) women fashion their appearance due to other WOMEN; constantly measure their own physical value and appearance against other WOMEN (contrary to the idea that we put on makeup and do our hair and get dressed thinking "wow, I sure hope men notice me today"). We don't want to be the fugliest woman in the room. We look at other women and compare them to ourselves, even subconsciously. There's probably some kind of innate biological reason for this.

[Khrz]

We look at other women and compare them to ourselves, even subconsciously. There's probably some kind of innate biological reason for this.

Possibly, but we can't discard the fact that we constantly evaluate women on their appearance, that it's the primary gauge about them, whether about actresses, politicians, journalists, scientists, or random people : the way they decided to dress, the way they put their hair, how their silhouette has or hasn't changed, their general sex-appeal thanks to or despite their age....

Do that for long enough as a society, as a culture, and of course that whole set of humanity will react to those cues. That's what culture does...

[allegro]

Possibly, but we can't discard the fact that we constantly evaluate women on their appearance, that it's the primary gauge about them, whether about actresses, politicians, journalists, scientists, or random people : the way they decided to dress, the way they put their hair, how their silhouette has or hasn't changed, their general sex-appeal thanks to or despite their age....

Do that for long enough as a society, as a culture, and of course that whole set of humanity will react to those cues. That's what culture does...

It's also what evolution and biology does..

Yes, we do judge appearance based on cultural norms and expectations associated with same.

But, having plastic surgery in an area where nobody but you and maybe a lover is apt to notice it: Is that SOLELY for males? Or, is it your internal judge competing with other females, because you feel you are not "normal?" The mere knowledge that you are different is deemed to be some kind of "disadvantage" rather than a personal attribute. The woman in the above-linked story was bothered not only by males but mostly from comments by other females. It's certainly societal and perhaps cultural, but it may be more innate than we suspect.

[Nyx]

According to the account of THIS WOMAN (linked above) who underwent labia surgery, it changed her life for the positive:

Yeah, and what happens when the next guy has a problem with the way one of her boobs hangs? She didn't solve her problem, she is as vulnerable as she was pre-surgery. I don't get what's so empowering about crumbling under social pressure, it will be forever sad to me.

[allegro]

Yeah, and what happens when the next guy has a problem with the way one of her boobs hangs? She didn't solve her problem, she is as vulnerable as she was pre-surgery. I don't get what's so empowering about crumbling under social pressure, it will be forever sad to me.

The story indicates that she has been obsessed with her labia for her entire life because it didn't look anything like the labia of other females around her, or the sex-ed depictions at school, etc. This isn't indicative of a woman who had zero self-worth and would always find "something wrong." Instead, it was indicative of a woman whose one part was actually ridiculed for most of her life, and she wanted to stop it from hurting her self-esteem. She does not mention any other body part.

Yes, there are people out there -- men and women -- who become obsessed with plastic surgery, but this is usually the manifestation of a pathological obsession with perfection; the above woman suffered from some terrible comments about her labia, and was even mentally manipulated by an abusive boyfriend who kept her captive by convincing her that "nobody else would want her." All of this is more than just "social pressure." It's sad that it HAPPENS, but it's not sad to me that she empowered herself to do something about it.

[allegro]

Years of waiting as women got ready together to go out made me wish I could turn a snappy phrase equivalent of "just whip them out and measure" that applied. I cannot tell you how many times I thought something like "Okay, you're both super fucking hot. Seriously. Your hair looks great straight; your hair looks great wavy. You're equally hot in different ways. Stop sneaking glances at each other and sneering while comparing. Now you go to one side of the room, and you go to the other, and no more backhanded compliments. Let's just fucking go to the bar."

LOL LOL so true! I've always been envious of the little amount of trouble that most males take to leave the house; shower, shave (maybe), some antiperspirant, get dressed, I'M READY! I won't leave the house to drive in the car unless I've applied at least a minimal amount of under-eye concealer, and darkened my blonde eyebrows, and put on some mascara. Other women have made comments to me: "Don't you ever wear makeup?" etc. Because makeup is a relative thing.

I remember that whole Lady Gaga "scandal" where a video emerged where she appeared to have something people were deeming to be indicative of her being a "hermaphrodite" most likely because of a large labia. She had to actually come out and make a statement indicating that she is not, in fact, intersex. But why the fuck were all these millions of people staring at her crotch and making stupid assumptions?

[Nyx]

Um, her words that she only stayed with the guy because she was convinced no one else would want her, ARE indicative of someone with extremely low self-worth.

[allegro]

Um, her words that she only stayed with the guy because she was convinced no one else would want her, ARE indicative of someone with extremely low self-worth.

No, that's indicative of manipulative abuse that deliberately created low self-worth. Abusers tend to find the most vulnerable points and use it to their advantage.

In her case, it's worse because her stepmother had already created that process.

[Nyx]

A woman whose entire sense of self worth became so attached to her labia after an offhand comment that she stayed in an abusive relationship for 6 years is a woman who would otherwise have no self-worth issues, and furthermore it all got fixed the moment she decided she can no longer tolerate her labia and have it cut off. Sounds healthy enough.

[playwithfire]

^^^^

That's really not a kind way to talk about someone.

[Nyx]

It's not a kind thing to do to yourself. It's indicative of deep self-worth issues not of flabby labia... which was my point re:allegro saying the woman didn't have self-worth issues to begin with..

[Khrz]

It's not a kind thing to do to yourself. It's indicative of deep self-worth issues not of flabby labia... which was my point re:allegro saying the woman didn't have self-worth issues to begin with..

You seem to think you can just magically reconcile with your looks and get your self-worth back. I'm glad you can enjoy the comfort of thinking this way. I suspect you might throw the word "therapy" around and if so, again, I'm glad you can afford to believe things are so simple.

[playwithfire]

Therapy can do a great job of teaching folks self worth. It can also do a great job of teaching the value of not condemning/judging others for choices they make that affect no one but themselves.

[Khrz]

Therapy can do a great job of teaching folks self worth. It can also do a great job of teaching the value of not condemning/judging others for choices they make that affect no one but themselves.

It does, but when you're living in constant pain and anguish, it can be too long a process. Sometimes you need to do something quick so you can move on.
Anyway, as you pointed out, it's nobody's business to judge whether such a personal decision is healthy or not, and why.

[allegate]

Apparently I'm not 'busy' enough so I was given an extra duty that I've barely had the time to do anything with in the past two weeks. And - go me! - I get another extra duty tomorrow. I'm going to tell him no on this one because holy fuck is it pissing me off.

[playwithfire]

The way I do/don't develop attraction to other people is so inconsistent and poorly performing and has a depressing knack for complicating shit. I'm really trying to not pursue stuff with folks that I'm not attracted to but given how slowly that develops sometimes for me it can make that difficult. Ugh.

This can also be chocked up to my tendency to gain emotional clarity around things on a delay. :/

[Nyx]

You seem to think you can just magically reconcile with your looks and get your self-worth back. I'm glad you can enjoy the comfort of thinking this way. I suspect you might throw the word "therapy" around and if so, again, I'm glad you can afford to believe things are so simple.

No, that is the point.. things are not so simple. One snip and her self-worth is magically all there? She was in an abusive relationship for 6 years. She is as vulnerable as she was before. Cosmetic surgery isn't a cure for low self-worth.
She solved nothing, only postponed it.

[allegro]

No, that is the point.. things are not so simple. One snip and her self-worth is magically all there? She was in an abusive relationship for 6 years. She is as vulnerable as she was before. Cosmetic surgery isn't a cure for low self-worth.
She solved nothing, only postponed it.

Being in an abusive relationship is not solely related to low self-esteem. (That's victim-blaming.) Self-esteem is probably more related to age and maturity. Six years, relatively speaking, isn't THAT long. And I don't understand why this topic is so important to you. Who cares what she does or why she does it? It's her business. It has zero impact on you or society. It doesn't harm you at all. Yet you feel the need to opine about it. The woman wrote an honest essay about her experience (never claiming that it magically repaired all issues of self-esteem, if any), and you are criticizing it. How are you any part of the "solution?" It's just another example of the Internet letting people feel the need to be "honest" at the expense of others.

[Your Name Here]

Finally getting the job interview I have been trying to get for the last year, because this job suits me better and would make me a happier person, and my car dies.

[allegate]

Well I said no and guess what? It didn't work! Awesome.

Fucking hiring freeze...

[Nyx]

Being in an abusive relationship is not solely related to low self-esteem. (That's victim-blaming.) Self-esteem is probably more related to age and maturity. Six years, relatively speaking, isn't THAT long. And I don't understand why this topic is so important to you. Who cares what she does or why she does it? It's her business. It has zero impact on you or society. It doesn't harm you at all. Yet you feel the need to opine about it. The woman wrote an honest essay about her experience (never claiming that it magically repaired all issues of self-esteem, if any), and you are criticizing it. How are you any part of the "solution?" It's just another example of the Internet letting people feel the need to be "honest" at the expense of others.

I merely said that I find it sad, not empowering, when people crumble under societal expectations and cut themselves up. Then I explained why I think a girl who stayed in an abusive relationship for almost a quarter of her life, then had plastic surgery on her normal healthy genitalia is indeed showing signs if low self-worth ( and no, that's not "victim blaming", wtf). I "opine" no more or no less than anyone. If you didn't want anyone to comment on the link you posted, then maybe you shouldn't have posted it.
Also, normalizing plastic surgery and unrealistic body expectations affects our society as a whole and it the long term, particularly the young and the insecure. Popularizing beauty surgery is not making the society a friendlier or "kinder" place...but hey, it doesn't affect me personally so who cares.

[elevenism]

what's up fuckers. i've been in the hospital. my wife had like forty seizures.
the er doctor said she was "faking."
I went fucking sideways on him and screamed and cussed at him.
Later ANOTHER fucking doctor accused her of "faking it" and got the nurses to believe it.

The nerologist apologized profusely for these fucking morons saying that she was "faking" seizures and told us that along with her epilepsy, she also has a second seizure disorder called PNES.

I am thinking of writing terrible things in the reviews for these drs on the internets.
I WISH i knew how to go about litigation for malpractice.

[allegro]

I merely said that I find it sad, not empowering, when people crumble under societal expectations and cut themselves up. Then I explained why I think a girl who stayed in an abusive relationship for almost a quarter of her life, then had plastic surgery on her normal healthy genitalia is indeed showing signs if low self-worth ( and no, that's not "victim blaming", wtf). I "opine" no more or no less than anyone. If you didn't want anyone to comment on the link you posted, then maybe you shouldn't have posted it.
Also, normalizing plastic surgery and unrealistic body expectations affects our society as a whole and it the long term, particularly the young and the insecure. Popularizing beauty surgery is not making the society a friendlier or "kinder" place...but hey, it doesn't affect me personally so who cares.

I'm not arguing, anymore. This confident female now understands that it's useless attempting to provide another perspective. You've made up your mind. But, as a parting gift, I give you this.

Have a fabulous day.

[Nyx]

So am I not allowed to comment on that link either? There's a comment in the comment section adressing it nicer than I could, probably... That girl has self-esteem issues as well.

You have a wonderful day too.