Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

[Deepvoid]

Yeah and now you have kids gunning other kids down. Why because, there are more guns out there, which increases the odds of more idiotic people owning guns. It's just gonna get worst buddy. You have no idea.

I swear, one day you're gonna hear about a kid shooting his parents dead in their sleep by accident.

[DigitalChaos]

Yeah and now you have kids gunning other kids down. Why because, there are more guns out there, which increases the odds of more idiotic people owning guns. It's just gonna get worst buddy. You have no idea.

I swear, one day you're gonna hear about a kid shooting his parents dead in their sleep by accident.

hyperbolic much?
It's not getting worse. It's getting better. Accidents happen. Sometimes they happen from negligence. It's ridiculous to try and force something on millions of people because of a fraction of a percent of people.
You want to build a padded wall around your life, go for it. Stay the fuck out of my life. Molon labe.

[DigitalChaos]

PS - you totally dropped the ball with that reply. It should have been "if the 2 year old had a gun this wouldn't have happened"

[Satyr]

That's not what she said.

I'd say that legalizing drugs is a step TOWARD a culture of more responsibility.

Forgive me. I mistakenly thought allegro was in the anti gun/anti responsibility crowd.

[DigitalChaos]

Forgive me. I mistakenly thought allegro was in the anti gun/anti responsibility crowd.

Well, she is actually ok with additional gun restrictions. However, she has a strong respect for the constitution and law in general. You and I may have very different desires and political agenda than her but it's very difficult to disagree with her on what will or won't actually work. Definitely one of the rare people who take a rational and well thought out approach.

The summary of her gun "problem" stance (if i remember correctly) is: just about everything proposed will be ineffective, we should actually enforce current gun law, stop the war on drugs, give some attention to poverty and education to reduce crime across the board.


Correct me if I am wrong @allegro

[allegro]

No, @DigitalChaos , I think you summarized my stance very well, thank you. I think he's just trolling, as I've already said I *OWN* guns (and I posted a photo of one of them).

This "pro or anti gun" or "gun fanatic" is oversimplification. It's like how people think you are "Pro-abortion" if you are "Pro-choice."

Definitely one of the rare people who take a rational and well thought out approach.

Thank you very much, I appreciate that.

Sorry for accidentally face-palming the post way up there, I fat-fingered on my iPhone.

I'd say that legalizing drugs is a step TOWARD a culture of more responsibility.

Amen.

[Minpin]

Crickets....yet again. You ask the anti-gun crowd to be constructive and come up with a solution....

Not just crickets but some drunk guys calling people morons and their ideas retarded while contributing absolutely nothing tangible. Not surprised in the least.

This drunk guy Subtle distinction, but I didn't call you a moron. I said your statement, "It's pretty interesting to observe how naive the anti gun crowd is", was moronic, and the idea IS retarded. As Allegro said above, it's oversimplifying.
Kinda ironic that you didn't answer my question. Does making a safety course mandatory for gun ownership make me 'anti-gun'?

Minpin. He replied to a post of mine where he admitted to being too drunk to read through a site then continued to call me a moron and my ideas retarded. All while offing up absolutely nothing constructive.

Hahaha now this is IRONY! Just to reiterate, the post of yours I replied to was "It's pretty interesting to observe how naive the anti gun crowd is". That's it. You weren't quoting anyone. One single, oversimplified, condescending sentence. And you've got the nerve to say my post wasn't constructive! Again, didn't call you a moron (but fucking oath you know I'm thinking it)

Regarding being too drunk to read through a site, I'd had a really enjoyable night drinking with friends, clicked on aggrocultures link and didn't feel like depressing myself. I didn't mean I wasn't capable of reading it. I was reading up on this thread.

[Satyr]

Does making a safety course mandatory for gun ownership make me 'anti-gun'?

Not necessarily. The only way I can see to make a mandatory gun safety course would be to issue a license that is required to own firearms.

I doubt that will happen.

[Deepvoid]

[allegro]

Guns don't "accidentally" go off. Somebody may not know it's loaded, but that's not the gun going off by itself. Maybe somebody pulls the trigger and they didn't know the gun was loaded. Maybe the person is stupid and doesn't know that if you pull the trigger, the gun will fire. But a gun is shot only one way: By pulling a trigger. Period. There is no other way to fire a gun.

Here, look at this. And this.

Any time we're talking about a gun, a large vehicle, a pool, we have to talk about SAFETY. Absolutely. But that doesn't mean we can or should outlaw all cars, guns and pools.

[Deepvoid]

Guns don't "accidentally" go off. Somebody may not know it's loaded, but that's not the gun going off by itself. Maybe somebody pulls the trigger and they didn't know the gun was loaded. Maybe the person is stupid and doesn't know that if you pull the trigger, the gun will fire. But a gun is shot only one way: By pulling a trigger. Period. There is no other way to fire a gun.

Here, look at this. And this.

Any time we're talking about a gun, a large vehicle, a pool, we have to talk about SAFETY. Absolutely. But that doesn't mean we can or should outlaw all cars, guns and pools.

Took me 30 seconds to find the following from Wikipedia. As I do not own guns, I will let you confirm or deny the following

"Accidental discharge can occur by means other than the finger pulling the trigger such as dropping a loaded weapon even though most have drop-safety or firing ping block.
Accidental discharges not involving trigger-pull can also occur if the firearm is mechanically unsound: poor maintenance, abuse, inept "gunsmithing," or the use of substandard materials or defective ammunition in the gun may all lead to breakage.
One last form of accidental discharge, known as cooking off, occurs when a weapon becomes overheated, with the firing chamber hot enough to ignite the propellant charge in the ammunition round, causing the cartridge to fire."

[allegro]

"Accidental discharge can occur by means other than the finger pulling the trigger such as dropping a loaded weapon even though most have drop-safety or firing ping block.

That still activates the trigger mechanism. And it's not likely to be what happened at the instances cited in the video you posted. You're not going to have "cooking off" at a gun show, nor are you going to have people dropping weapons. Hell, guns shouldn't even be LOADED at gun shows. See where this is going?

I mean, seriously, go study how a gun works, fire a gun yourself, it's very rudimentary equipment, it doesn't require many parts, gun owners are taught how to completely disassemble their gun and reassemble, to clean and transport the gun.

The video you posted involves a rifle: http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4741146...utm_source=ask

And, again, we can't outlaw guns in this country. I repeat: WE CAN'T outlaw guns in this country. We can't change that part of our Constitution. Ain't happening. You're beating a dead horse. Yes, we can and should teach safety. But this conversation keeps coming around to our Constitution, and you ignore that part of the conversation.

[Deepvoid]

The purpose of the video was not to argue about the term "accidentally." It was to demonstrate that the culture is now to a point where guns are offered as birthday present to 5-year olds.

If you paid more attention to the content and not the form ..
I don't give a fuck about your constitution. If the constitution would give you the right to steal from those who have stolen from you, you sound like the type of person who would do it just because you have been granted this right even if it's morally wrong.

You guys sound a like a bunch of robots incapable of knowing the difference from what's right and what's wrong.

The right to bear arms so kids can shot each other. How fucking pathetic.
Gun freaks ..

[allegro]

The purpose of the video was not to argue about the term "accidentally." It was to demonstrate that the culture is now to a point where guns are offered as birthday present to 5-year olds.

In certain rural parts of our country, those kinds of guns are only used for hunting and children learn gun safety at a very early age and they learn how to hunt. It's not a part of any so-called "gun culture."

The rest of what you say about our Constitution is illogical and emotional and makes a logical leap between hunting and "gun culture" and "gun freaks." If you want to be in this conversation and be considered an intelligent person actually contributing, you need to acknowledge certain realities like our government and the Constitution and how this all works. Also, you have to be logical. With over 300 million guns already owned in this country, we cannot possible hire a Gun Gestapo to go door-to-door without a warrant to remove all the guns. First, because it would be unconstitutional. Second, because it would be financially and physically impossible. That horse left the barn 200 years ago.

If the only reason you're in here is to poke fun at our country, our Constitution, and to point at us all as "gun freaks," you're a troll.

The purpose of the video was not to argue about the term "accidentally."

You posted a link without providing any explanation whatsoever, without providing any reason why you posted the video.


I just went to your profile and clicked on the "ignore" button, so I will no longer see anything you are saying.

[aggroculture]

how about you ridicule the fuck out of them in the public spotlight. And I'm not talking about the politicized ridicule that happens only from the Dems or Repubs... I am talking about universal "you and anyone who does what you did are too fucking stupid to live" ridicule.
Anyone remember the DEA agent who shot himself infront of a classroom of kids? Did anyone say "wow, we need to prevent police from having access to guns"?? No, they said "wtf, that guy is a goddamned idiot"

So, this is your great reveal? This is your solution to lowering that 30,000 gun deaths a year figure?
Ridicule people who left guns lying around and people died?
I keep waiting for you guys to say something sensible, and you never do.
Also, you seem to grossly underestimate the role the law plays in our world. Yes, I agree it's important to change the culture. But most Americans already want tighter restrictions on guns. Laws should reflect the beliefs and feelings of the citizens to some extent. It's the politicians, in the pockets of the NRA, who are lagging behind. Of course, we need to change the culture even more, to get people to understand the personal responsibility involved in owning a gun. But the law needs to catch up now.

The only way I can see to make a mandatory gun safety course would be to issue a license that is required to own firearms.

I doubt that will happen.

Please explain to me why mandatory training and a license should not be required to own a gun.
I don't understand why, if you want to own a potentially lethal object such as a gun, you shouldn't have to demonstrate that you are able to use it responsibly.
Why do you have the right to own a gun irresponsibly?
Responsibilty is not just something you can ask or tell people to have more of.
Responsibility should be earned and demonstrated, and this process should be enforced by law. Can't show you can use and keep a gun responsibly? Then you don't get to have one.
What is the problem with this?

[allegro]

Please explain to me why mandatory training and a license should not be required to own a gun.
I don't understand why, if you want to own a potentially lethal object such as a gun, you shouldn't have to demonstrate that you are able to use it responsibly.

For the record, as I've explained in this thread already, this ALREADY IS a requirement in several states and municipalities. It's a requirement in the city where I live. Our U.S. Constitution specifies state's rights and the Feds don't have many nationwide regulations related to firearms; Republicans and Libertarians are REALLY against trodding upon state's rights, as is the SCOTUS, because our national Constitution protects state's rights so it's complicated.

And, yes, the NRA sucks. The NRA exists solely to collect money to line their own pockets; if we had nationwide sensible regulations that could be enforced, the NRA would no longer be necessary and the NRA operates on fear so they have to generate a lot of fear to generate more cash. So if they spin a story, "requiring safety courses impedes our rights under the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution" and they spread that fear as a "slippery slope," it's amazing how many people get all freaked out, "well, but the NRA says this is BAD and that the Nazi Government is gonna come take my guns!"

In Chicago, Toni Preckwinkle, the Cook County Board President, just imposed a $25 tax on gun licenses (Chicago requires gun safety courses to obtain a gun license, btw), which would contribute to the cost of gun violence. The NRA is fighting that fee, saying that the fee is impeding the 2nd Amendment. Never mind that there is already sales tax, and never mind that the gun already cost a lot of money; no, the NRA will fight ANYTHING just to stay in existence, "see, this is why we're here! So send us some money or you'll all lose your NRA protection!" They're like a really corrupt labor union.

So when boat-boy @Satyr says "I doubt that will happen," he's most likely saying that because we have the above-mentioned complications and opposition. Yes, it's logical. Yes, it's not unlike a license to drive a vehicle. But, this country isn't logical because we have these crazy corrupt money-hungry rich lobbyists who send lots and lots of campaign money to politicians.

[DigitalChaos]

The purpose of the video was not to argue about the term "accidentally." It was to demonstrate that the culture is now to a point where guns are offered as birthday present to 5-year olds.

If you paid more attention to the content and not the form ..
I don't give a fuck about your constitution. If the constitution would give you the right to steal from those who have stolen from you, you sound like the type of person who would do it just because you have been granted this right even if it's morally wrong.

You guys sound a like a bunch of robots incapable of knowing the difference from what's right and what's wrong.

The right to bear arms so kids can shot each other. How fucking pathetic.
Gun freaks ..

Hahahaha
1- kids being given guns... That's always existed. The amount of it has actually been slowly shrinking. Yet, you are somehow capable of seeing a handful of articles on the topic and proclaiming a growth. Ride that irrational fear train!

2- Your comments about the Constitution are incredibly juvenile. You've lost all potential credibility on any topic that concerns law. Pick up a history book and learn why the Constitution is incredibly important and not at the whim of irrational emotion. Learn why every part of it is important. I understand that we live in a time where both major political parties try to selectively ignore parts of it but its existence is what stops that from happening in most cases.

[DigitalChaos]

So, this is your great reveal? This is your solution to lowering that 30,000 gun deaths a year figure?
Ridicule people who left guns lying around and people died?
I keep waiting for you guys to say something sensible, and you never do.
Also, you seem to grossly underestimate the role the law plays in our world. Yes, I agree it's important to change the culture. But most Americans already want tighter restrictions on guns. Laws should reflect the beliefs and feelings of the citizens to some extent. It's the politicians, in the pockets of the NRA, who are lagging behind. Of course, we need to change the culture even more, to get people to understand the personal responsibility involved in owning a gun. But the law needs to catch up now.

No, it's just one of the multiple answers specific to the issue of safety culture. My wider view on gun crime focuses on enforcing existing laws, ending the drug war, focusing on ALL crime... largely through fixing poverty and education.

[DigitalChaos]

For the record, as I've explained in this thread already, this ALREADY IS a requirement in several states and municipalities. It's a requirement in the city where I live. Our U.S. Constitution specifies state's rights and the Feds don't have many nationwide regulations related to firearms; Republicans and Libertarians are REALLY against trodding upon state's rights, as is the SCOTUS, because our national Constitution protects state's rights so it's complicated.

And, yes, the NRA sucks. The NRA exists solely to collect money to line their own pockets; if we had nationwide sensible regulations that could be enforced, the NRA would no longer be necessary and the NRA operates on fear so they have to generate a lot of fear to generate more cash. So if they spin a story, "requiring safety courses impedes our rights under the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution" and they spread that fear as a "slippery slope," it's amazing how many people get all freaked out, "well, but the NRA says this is BAD and that the Nazi Government is gonna come take my guns!"

In Chicago, Toni Preckwinkle, the Cook County Board President, just imposed a $25 tax on gun licenses (Chicago requires gun safety courses to obtain a gun license, btw), which would contribute to the cost of gun violence. The NRA is fighting that fee, saying that the fee is impeding the 2nd Amendment. Never mind that there is already sales tax, and never mind that the gun already cost a lot of money; no, the NRA will fight ANYTHING just to stay in existence, "see, this is why we're here! So send us some money or you'll all lose your NRA protection!" They're like a really corrupt labor union.

So when boat-boy @Satyr says "I doubt that will happen," he's most likely saying that because we have the above-mentioned complications and opposition. Yes, it's logical. Yes, it's not unlike a license to drive a vehicle. But, this country isn't logical because we have these crazy corrupt money-hungry rich lobbyists who send lots and lots of campaign money to politicians.

You and I can agree pretty quickly on what will/won't work but we can definitely disagree on which of those items are right/wrong to adopt.

Leaving it to the states makes sense because 1- it allows us, as a country, to experiment and find the best answer instead of the diluted federal compromise. 2- one size fits all doesn't work for an issue that is so unevenly spread. I don't know what is right for someone 1 block away from me let alone 2000miles away.

The $25 gun tax focuses on guns (unlike sales tax). It's basically a sin tax. It's not being funded from the universal tax bucket because they want it to reduce gun purchases. Pretty easy to spin 2A infringement when you see that.

[allegro]

\Pretty easy to spin 2A infringement when you see that.

It's pretty "easy" for the NRA to spin 2A infringement on anything. The county has the right to tax whatever they want, so long as it is okay according to our state constitution. A "sin tax" - perhaps. But that's allowed, too. The county needs to get revenue wherever possible, and there's only two things you can't avoid: Death and taxes.

Preckwinkle isn't using it to reduce gun purchases, because she knows that won't work that way. But Cook County Hospital (nka Stroger Hospital) incurs MILLIONS of dollars in costs related to uninsured shooting victims, and the County taxpayers have to pay those costs; imposing a tax on gun licenses is an attempt to recoup some of those costs in any way possible. Because Cook County is already pretty broke. And Cook County has a LOT of gun-related injuries (gangs).

[DigitalChaos]

It's pretty "easy" for the NRA to spin 2A infringement on anything. The county has the right to tax whatever they want, so long as it is okay according to our state constitution. A "sin tax" - perhaps. But that's allowed, too. The county needs to get revenue wherever possible, and there's only two things you can't avoid: Death and taxes.

Preckwinkle isn't using it to reduce gun purchases, because she knows that won't work that way. But Cook County Hospital (nka Stroger Hospital) incurs MILLIONS of dollars in costs related to uninsured shooting victims, and the County taxpayers have to pay those costs; imposing a tax on gun licenses is an attempt to recoup some of those costs in any way possible. Because Cook County is already pretty broke. And Cook County has a LOT of gun-related injuries (gangs).

my post made way more sense before you replied!

I'm betting the hospitals wouldn't have a this problem if the other approaches to gun crime were taken (drug war, etc).

[DigitalChaos]

I ventured over to the Liberal subreddit to see what people were saying about the 5 year old accidentally shooting the 2 year old in relation to gun control.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Liberal/comm...n_control_now/
The comments really sum up the future of any potential gun control.


My favorite:

What gun control laws would you propose that would have prevented this .22lr, single shot, bolt action rifle from being used to accidentally kill someone?
Magazine limits?
Assault Weapons Ban?
Banning barrel shrouds?
Universal background checks?
Ending the "gun show loophole"?
Mandatory firearms registration?
More in-depth background checks?
Background checks to purchase ammunition?
Banning the delivery of ammunition to a residence?

[Satyr]

So when boat-boy @Satyr says "I doubt that will happen," he's most likely saying that because we have the above-mentioned complications and opposition. Yes, it's logical. Yes, it's not unlike a license to drive a vehicle. But, this country isn't logical because we have these crazy corrupt money-hungry rich lobbyists who send lots and lots of campaign money to politicians.

I'm assuming that you realize that the boat comment is pretty common among gun owners and is a jest about what to say when the Fed comes to confiscate or register your guns? "oh I lost them in an unfortunate boating accident".

Also when I say I doubt that will happen...its because there are already hundreds of millions of unregistered firearms in the US. I suppose you could try but I'd wager that you'd just create a huge black market for unregistered firearms. Any attempt to register those guns in any meaningful way would likely require force and would result in a large body count.

I don't like that people die. It sucks. I unfortunately don't see a solution to the problem that will work for the entire country.

I'm genuinely happy that you seem to be well informed on the subject though. Much better talking about the issue with someone that does more than spam the conversation with news articles about accidental discharges.

[allegro]

I'm assuming that you realize that the boat comment is pretty common among gun owners and is a jest about what to say when the Fed comes to confiscate or register your guns? "oh I lost them in an unfortunate boating accident"

No, actually, I've never heard that before! Now that's funny! (I'm into boating so I never associate boats and guns. Maybe I should, haha.)

Also when I say I doubt that will happen...its because there are already hundreds of millions of unregistered firearms in the US. I suppose you could try but I'd wager that you'd just create a huge black market for unregistered firearms.

True, that.

[Jinsai]

so a new GOP ad is bashing Obama for failing to pass the gun reform bill...

[Satyr]

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...lease_vid.html

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffd_1367619612 GRAPHIC. VIDEO OF THE SHOOTOUT.

Right in my own back yard......Who knows where that guy was going?

[Jinsai]

and to add to the discussion about how parents should think twice before giving guns to their unstable kids, I submit this, and then I walk away, shaking my head and saying "what the fuck?!"

[DigitalChaos]

and to add to the discussion about how parents should think twice before giving guns to their unstable kids, I submit this, and then I walk away, shaking my head and saying "what the fuck?!"

I really have very little sympathy for these stories. It's good that it makes the news so parents with similarly poor techniques can rethink things but... am I supposed to care that these people have eliminated themselves from society? Seems like a healthy thing for the rest of us. The weapon of choice doesn't matter either, this is just straight up Darwin award stuff.

[Elke]

Actually, it's not. If we had less laws and more actual darwinism, that kid is the fittest. We'd all be toast.

And on a more serious note: I'm disliking your tendency to spin 'personal responsibility' as 'it's their own fault'.

[Satyr]

Actually, it's not. If we had less laws and more actual darwinism, that kid is the fittest. We'd all be toast.

And on a more serious note: I'm disliking your tendency to spin 'personal responsibility' as 'it's their own fault'.

I have to question anyone that thinks that a 13 year old that tries to rape his mother then kills her is the fittest 13 year old. Thats seriously fucked up.