Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

[aggroculture]

People say that since there are so many guns out there, we need more guns to protect us from the people with guns. It's such bullshit. The person this Nancy Lanza needed protection from was in her home, and he used her own guns. This is a perfect example of the error of this way of thinking. We keep thinking it's the "bad people out there" we need protection from (looters, poor people, terrorists, whoever). When instead - it's us. We are the ones doing the killing. In literary studies we would call this situation "tragic irony."

[DigitalChaos]

So what you're saying is that those mass shootings are inevitable in the US. It's how this country is?
Sure hope you're not thinking that you're still the greatest country in the world.

I am saying that those who are demanding change to gun law are lacking in the ability to make a meaningful change to the problem.

This country has a lot of comparative failure.


Here is what will happen... Gun control advocates will put proposals on the table that, if enacted, will make them feel safe until the next shooting. Those proposals will probably not make it through. It's probably a good thing since the proposals won't fix the issue. Mental health is something even the GOP is wanting to talk about. Hopefully the control advocates don't waste the rare chance to take action there. Meanwhile, everyone will miss the fact that existing laws are being executed poorly. The majority of states and federal agencies are failing to report the background data that is required to do background checks on firearms purchases. The control advocates seem to be ignorant on the functionality of existing laws.

It's possible to make change but most are too inept to do so.

[allegro]

We already had an assault weapons ban; I think that all Congress will do is reinstate the one that expired in 2004 (the Act that I mentioned on the prior page). I don't think that anyone, here, thinks a ban on assault weapons as defined by the prior Act would stop all violence. See zip gun for further reference. Or, people can learn how to make a bomb online.

[allegro]

existing laws are being executed poorly. The majority of states and federal agencies are failing to report the background data that is required to do background checks on firearms purchases.

This is true.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Meanwhile, everyone will miss the fact that existing laws are being executed poorly. The majority of states and federal agencies are failing to report the background data that is required to do background checks on firearms purchases. The control advocates seem to be ignorant on the functionality of existing laws.

This, as I see it, is one of the biggest problems with a discussion about guns and gun control: the idea that one needs to know the minutae of our cobbled-together gun laws before they can observe the simple fact that there are really only two ways to control gun violence:

1. Strict gun control alongside affordable/free healthcare, AKA 'What the rest of the fucking developed world does with great success'

2. Compulsory gun ownership alongside compulsory conscription and affordable/free healthcare; AKA, 'What Israel and Switzerland do'.

I'm partial to the first, as I think there are mitigating factors in Switzerland and Israel that we wouldn't be able to duplicate in the US.

But anyway, Brady Bill, assault weapons ban, automatic vs. semi-auto . . . all pretty much irrelevant. The American experiment in gun ownership and regulation has completely failed. Places with low levels of gun violence don't get there by way of quick-drawing criminals, and they don't get there by banning the scary weapon du jour. They get there, by and large, by banning most/all guns for most/all people. AND they provide their citizens with adequate healthcare so that the mentally ill have a place to get help.

[PooPooMeowChow]

I'm still not sure how Piers Morgan is allowed on TV.

[Canuckle]

When you glorify the gun; put it on a pedestal and make the right of owning one as important as free speech or voting, you reap what you sow.

The US's problem isn't gun control, but gun culture. Where teaching your kids how to shoot or that it's okay to have a gun in the house at all is something normal. Add in the naiveness towards mental illness, the types of guns people can purchase, and media pumping up these atrocities and you get a recipe for repetition... and an issue no one wants to touch because it's too hard to fix.

[Deus Ex Machina]

I'm still not sure how Piers Morgan is allowed on TV.

Because he's not the only one tired of hearing the same old lies. He's completely right about strict gun control being effective, and Pratt is completely wrong. How long do our journalists have to sit around pretending that gun control is some kind of mystery?

People like Pratt need to be bullied.

[PooPooMeowChow]

At the very least Piers could have tried to present an argument instead of just saying stupid shit like "they may possible fall and allow a five year old to pick it up." That's why he resorts to insulting Pratt. The state of journalism in America is pathetic.
Most of what Pratt says checks out. http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#crime

[allegro]

I don't know how much this adds or detracts from the subject, but I thought this was really interesting.

[Lutz]

At work this morning we all had a good laff AT AMERICA having a ban on Kinder Surprise to protect children.

[darktemplar007]

Good to see our government has their priorities straight.

[Presideo]

When you glorify the gun; put it on a pedestal and make the right of owning one as important as free speech or voting, you reap what you sow.

The US's problem isn't gun control, but gun culture. Where teaching your kids how to shoot or that it's okay to have a gun in the house at all is something normal. Add in the naiveness towards mental illness, the types of guns people can purchase, and media pumping up these atrocities and you get a recipe for repetition... and an issue no one wants to touch because it's too hard to fix.

Politicians don't want to touch the issue because most rely on support from the NRA; fixing the problem itself shouldn't be that difficult (our politicians will certainly make it hard, though. Just like comprehensive health care.)

At work this morning we all had a good laff AT AMERICA having a ban on Kinder Surprise to protect children.

Do you really want to discuss a 1930's ban on hazardous small objects inside food? In this thread? I'm sorry we stupid Americans have our heads up our asses when it comes to the great "Plastic Objects in Candy Eggs" debate. I'm sure our lawmakers are working around the clock to rectify the situation.

[Fixer808]

You have to admit, though, the fact that a chocolate egg with small toys inside it being illegal while an M2 .50cal Browning machine gun is totes legal as long as you pay the ATF a fee... that shit is ridiculous.

Back on topic...

[Jinsai]

and gun sales are, of course, soaring

[WorzelG]

Does anyone even know whether the guy was mentally ill even? When I try to find out the google search just comes up with the anarchistsoccermoms blog and the backlash against that. All I heard was he was very quiet at school. Makes you wonder if the outcome would be different had someone just befriended him

[allegro]

No, so far we're just hearing that he had "special needs" and that mom told babysitters "don't leave him alone" and stuff like that. Not sure we'll get real details due to federal medical privacy laws etc.

But experts have been saying that some form of mental illness is obvious due to the nature of the crime.

There has been some controversy here in our media because the shooter's brother told police that his brother was "autistic" which set off a whole slew of experts saying this violence is not at all characteristic of any form of autism.

edit: This is very interesting: http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...re-attack.html

[marodi]

I was reading the article that allegro linked to when a pop-up appeared, suggesting another article which I found very interesting also:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...amendment.html

[Jinsai]

No, so far we're just hearing that he had "special needs" and that mom told babysitters "don't leave him alone" and stuff like that. Not sure we'll get real details due to federal medical privacy laws etc.

while I respect medical privacy and all that, there are some cases where the diagnosis is so vital to a national debate and related to an event so heinous that it just needs to be disclosed. When someone walks into a classroom and starts shooting little kids, it's just important to know why he did it, and if the guy is dead anyway, I think we should dispense with the considerations towards his rights.

Either way, the mother gave the babysitters special instructions, the kid was known to have "special needs," and his brother is (probably incorrectly) calling him autistic... although who knows, it could be that he was autistic and schizophrenic. I don't see why that's outside of the realm of possibility. When there's something obviously wrong with the child, I'd presume he was at some point taken to a medical professional or given a psychiatric evaluation of some sort, and I would think it's important to delve into that for as much as we can possibly ascertain.

Either way, if all we'll ever know is that the mother was aware her son had mental issues, and yet she still trained her son to use high powered weaponry and didn't restrict his access to it, that should be enough of a message to resonate with some people... as if to say "hey, even if you LOVE your guns, if you've got a kid who seems to be a little off, maybe don't take him down to the shooting range, and lock your weapons up in a safe. Also, maybe get him/her some psychological treatment"

Actually, I don't even know why I bothered to (in the context of this argument) say him/her. Have any of these mass shootings, school or otherwise, ever been perpetrated by a female? To be honest, that had never occurred to me before, but now that I think about it...


I don't know. Lately I have a bit of a hard time thinking about this whole thing because it makes me feel a little sick whenever I take a step back from being too pragmatic about it. I just had a moderately infuriating conversation with a friend who condescended towards me because I wouldn't accept that this was all part of some shadow government conspiracy, and that the trigger was hidden in the last Batman movie. I thought she was joking at first, so maybe I came across wrong when I said that it was in poor taste to turn a horrible tragedy like this into some kind of bizarre fantasy, but really...

[allegro]

^^ Obviously, an investigation is being conducted but since there will be no criminal trial, it's complicated. The article I linked, above, gives some insight.

Do like I do: Don't think about it. When it gets too much to take in, put your mind elsewhere. There's nothing wrong with that. Really. It doesn't mean you're sticking your head in the sand.

[Fixer808]

Some Ann Coulter-level trolling from an idiot who blames the fact that there were "no men at the school" for the shooter getting as far as he did. This is truly criminal stupidity.

[Nyx]

Actually, I don't even know why I bothered to (in the context of this argument) say him/her. Have any of these mass shootings, school or otherwise, ever been perpetrated by a female? To be honest, that had never occurred to me before, but now that I think about it...

I just read this today:
Memo to Media: Manhood, Not Guns or Mental Illness, Should Be Central in Newtown Shooting

[WorzelG]

Actually, I don't even know why I bothered to (in the context of this argument) say him/her. Have any of these mass shootings, school or otherwise, ever been perpetrated by a female? To be honest, that had never occurred to me before, but now that I think about it...

Wasn't a Boomtown Rats song 'I don't like Mondays' based on a female school shooter?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Ann_Spencer

[Jinsai]

Wasn't a Boomtown Rats song 'I don't like Mondays' based on a female school shooter?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Ann_Spencer

Wait... THAT'S what that song was about?!!!! I always hated that song because it just seemed so completely meaningless and stupid. Now I'm more than a little creeped out by the entire thing.

[allegro]

Another female:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Dann

[Jinsai]

Another female:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Dann

holy shit... this is just baffling. It's like she failed to poison a LOT of people, failed to blow up a school, got stopped trying to enter a building with a canister full of gasoline, failed to feed some kids milk laced with arsenic, and then finally achieved some "success" with guns.

I would still say the primary issue in that case was obviously a mental condition, but in that particular situation, I don't understand how she wasn't stopped sooner.

[WorzelG]

It really irks me that so many of these shooters commit suicide, leaving no sense of closure, or even any reasons why to those left behind. I can't bear to think of the families of those kids and the teachers who died,having lost their loved ones just before Christmas

[allegro]

I don't think closure is ever possible, and no reason is ever good enough, though, you know? The shooters in the Aurora (CO) and Gabby Giffords shootings are still alive but both killers are mentally ill and the victims' families still deal with senseless loss.

[Fixer808]

Irony decides to have a little fun with the NRA.

[miss k bee]

Another female:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Dann

Damn that is terrifying!. And still mental health issues are not being handed properly.

Another female

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_San_Marco