Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

[Deepvoid]

No that's not what I think. By no guns I meant can't carry at any time so technically when you got to the mall there are no guns.
Secondly, we actually kept the gun registry in Quebec. Rightfully so.

Finally, I'm not anti-gun per say. I think it has to do with the way you are raised and the values you are given. This where you and me are different. Guns are implanted in American culture. The NRA is the most powerful lobby for a reason.

In any case, people claim sending thoughts & prayers when there's a massacre but I honestly don't think they care that much. When I see on the news that a new shooting occurred, I'm not even shocked or surprised. It's kinda normal coming from the US.

[Satyr]

No that's not what I think. By no guns I meant can't carry at any time so technically when you got to the mall there are no guns.
Secondly, we actually kept the gun registry in Quebec. Rightfully so.

Finally, I'm not anti-gun per say. I think it has to do with the way you are raised and the values you are given. This where you and me are different. Guns are implanted in American culture. The NRA is the most powerful lobby for a reason.

In any case, people claim sending thoughts & prayers when there's a massacre but I honestly don't think they care that much. When I see on the news that a new shooting occurred, I'm not even shocked or surprised. It's kinda normal coming from the US.

You Canadians have had your fair share of mass shootings. I don't think they got as much publicity though. Oddly enough the guns in the mass shootings remain legal in your country.

Honestly when Columbine happened if those two assholes hadn't become household names. I think some people would still be alive today.

More children are killed by pools every year than firearms. Should we ban pools?

[pakkopaita]

More children are killed by pools every year than firearms. Should we ban pools?

I don't know about Deepvoid, but you just totally changed my entire outlook on life and my views of guns because of this dazzlingly profound insight. Never before have I seen such a logical and totally called for sense-making equivalency than this. Thank you so much. Truly a brilliant statement that brings a lot of credit to our side of the debate.

[Jinsai]

Having an AR15 aimed at your chest is a lot different than having a plastic toy rifle aimed at your chest.

Yeah, there's a distinct possibility that you would immediately shoot the person carrying the unarmed AR15 with the loaded gun that you're carrying in your hand.

[Satyr]

I don't know about Deepvoid, but you just totally changed my entire outlook on life and my views of guns because of this dazzlingly profound insight. Never before have I seen such a logical and totally called for sense-making equivalency than this. Thank you so much. Truly a brilliant statement that brings a lot of credit to our side of the debate.

Thanks. Your sarcastic comments and hyperbole are adding a lot to an intellectual debate on how to prevent further tragedies. Thanks you Mr President.

[Satyr]

Yeah, there's a distinct possibility that you would immediately shoot the person carrying the unarmed AR15 with the loaded gun that you're carrying in your hand.

You're pretty good at making assumptions that are not grounded in reality. When you find an incident of someone getting shot by an intruder because their AR15 was unloaded. Let me know.

[pakkopaita]

Thanks you Mr President.

No, no... stuff like this is what truly adds to this intellectual debate.

[Satyr]

No, no... stuff like this is what truly adds to this intellectual debate.

Do you have anything to add to the debate? I just responded to your hyperbole and sarcasm with what you were bringing to the table.

Have you ever heard of the Columbine Massacre? I'm assuming you have. If you haven't I can google it for you.

Have you ever heard of the Pearl River Massacre? No? Maybe because an armed citizen (the assistant principal) put and end to it (with a .45 pistol) before the psychopath could off 20 kids.

I've just provided a real world example of a firearm saving children. Would you prefer them to be dead? Can you provide me one example of a gun free zone or gun control preventing a psychopath from killing people?

[pakkopaita]

I've just provided a real world example of a firearm saving children. Would you prefer them to be dead? Can you provide me one example of a gun free zone or gun control preventing a psychopath from killing people?

May I compile your posts into a little reference handbook of logical fallacies?

[Satyr]

May I compile your posts into a little reference handbook of logical fallacies?

Sure, you have my consent to continue to contribute absolutely nothing to the discussion. Your absolute lack of anything constructive or any point to make is greatly appreciated. I'd be proud to see my logical fallacies listed out one by one.

I'll hold my breath:-)

[Deepvoid]

Ban pools?

This is the only appropriate response.

http://onion.com/14wez0q

[Jinsai]

You're pretty good at making assumptions that are not grounded in reality. When you find an incident of someone getting shot by an intruder because their AR15 was unloaded. Let me know.

How about finding me a situation where a homeowner actually fended off attackers with an AR15 that was loaded? Where it was used as more than just a scarecrow? In the wake of these instances where this weapon has been used to kill mass groups of innocent people, to point to an instance where someone scared off intruders with an unloaded weapon isn't a good example of its effectiveness.

I can find tons of cases where home owners defended themselves from intruders with hand guns, with real actual bullets. Conversely, you'll find stories where a homeowner is disarmed and shot with his/her own weapon. I'm not even arguing the case that we need to ban the AR15, I'd just like to hear a better argument.

Pointing to this instance where things worked out well for the people with the unarmed weapon... should the counterpoint be that we should start trying to scare off intruders with replica weapons that would have been just as effective if the trigger had been pulled? The whole discussion would be elevated to another level of ridiculousness.

[Deepvoid]

Gayle Trotter: Mother of The Year.

http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2013/01/30/crazy-mama/

Also voted against the Violence Against Women Act.
She must have a big purse to fit that AR-15.

[DigitalChaos]

I caught part of the gun hearing this morning.

There was this woman who was against the proposed ban of AR-15. She was explaining that it brought comfort and piece of mind having this scary looking gun.
She then proceeded to describe a possible scenario in which 4-5 armed attackers would enter her house, with her 3 kids crying, she could then defend and protect her family with her AR-15.

I can only image the scene were 4 gunmen enter a house, kids starts crying in the living room and mommy pulls her AR-15 and a shootout ensue. Bullets flying left and right. There's no way this could end badly.

The mentality surrounding guns is scary.

Uh, that's actually why an AR-15 would be good. The .223 ammo is going to do much less wall penetration that just about any handgun. This is one of the reasons people prefer them for home defense.

[allegro]

Seriously? How so? I mean, really, I'm curious.

[DigitalChaos]

How about finding me a situation where a homeowner actually fended off attackers with an AR15 that was loaded? Where it was used as more than just a scarecrow? In the wake of these instances where this weapon has been used to kill mass groups of innocent people, to point to an instance where someone scared off intruders with an unloaded weapon isn't a good example of its effectiveness.

I can find tons of cases where home owners defended themselves from intruders with hand guns, with real actual bullets. Conversely, you'll find stories where a homeowner is disarmed and shot with his/her own weapon. I'm not even arguing the case that we need to ban the AR15, I'd just like to hear a better argument.

Pointing to this instance where things worked out well for the people with the unarmed weapon... should the counterpoint be that we should start trying to scare off intruders with replica weapons that would have been just as effective if the trigger had been pulled? The whole discussion would be elevated to another level of ridiculousness.

http://www.fishgame.com/webnews.php?...8#.UO5Oo2-umaJ

[DigitalChaos]

Seriously? How so? I mean, really, I'm curious.

the .223 ammo is less than half the weight of even a small 9mm handgun round and less than 25% that of the larger rounds. Google for .223 wall penetration tests. In mosts test they seem to penetrate the first sheet of drywall, lose almost all of it's momentum, start tumbling, and stop at the 2nd sheet of drywall. Almost all handguns will exit that 2nd sheet and keep going.

Its one of the many reason I laugh about people saying that these guns have no function for home defense and that they are somehow superior killing machines (for school shootings, etc) compared to a handgun. I suspect the people shooting up public places choose these weapons for the psychological aspect... and probably not to scare their victims, just to make themselves feel more badass. Ego certainly seems to be a big part of the mass shootings, so it can't be too surprising.

[DigitalChaos]

http://www.evergreen.edu/policeservi...stosucceed.pdf
The North Aurora Police Department currently allows officers to carry their choice of 9mm or .45 caliber pistols; no long guns are available. The Firearms Training Unit has proposed that the department adopt the .223 caliber rifle for patrol officer use. The reasons for this proposal are: (1) pistols are inherently less accurate and have a shorter effective range than long guns such as rifles and shotguns, (2) pistol caliber bullets penetrate more heavily through interior walls than .223 rifle caliber bullets, which causes an increased risk of unintended persons being hit, and (3) pistol caliber bullets will not penetrate body armor and many other obstacles commonly encountered, while most .223 caliber bullets will.

[DigitalChaos]

Damn... I kinda want a .223 rifle for home defense after reading the rest of that pdf summary.

[allegro]

Whatever.

I'm Buddhist. I pick up spiders in my house and put them outside.

If I feel I'm living in a dangerous neighborhood, I move.

[Satyr]

Whatever.

I'm Buddhist. I pick up spiders in my house and put them outside.

If I feel I'm living in a dangerous neighborhood, I move.

I'm not really sure if you're serious.

[DigitalChaos]

Milwaukee County Sherif on Piers Morgan
This is the sherif who told people that police can't be the ultimate protection and that people should be protecting themselves.
Some things to keep in mind while watching this:
- A sherif has superior constitutional authority over his jurisdiction, higher than every other legal entity.
- Only a small portion of 911 calls are responded to fast enough for police to intervene. I think that number is around 5% (http://psacake.com/dial_911.asp)
- It has been a long standing ruling that police are NOT responsible for your safety or obligated to protect you. (I can cite many Supreme Court cases)
- Piers calls self protection "vigilantism"

[allegro]

I'm not really sure if you're serious.

I have two revolvers, unloaded, but I don't really plan on using them. I don't "arm" myself for self-defense. I only own guns for sport (target practice). I just don't see myself as part of this violent culture. I don't want to be a part of it. To the point where I'm actually considering leaving this country.

this thread isn't helping. neither are some of the "friends" on Facebook, some of whom are in-laws.

Hearing that guy from the NRA on the news 800 times, today, bitching about background checks is just making it worse.

Look, if you live in the 'hood, I absolutely understand your need to arm yourself to protect yourself from gang bangers. Seriously. But you should still do whatever you can to leave.

Now, I live in the fucking North Shore. Billy Corgan is a neighbor. The biggest thing that happens, here, is recycling bins getting knocked over by wind.

But, I protest. I do anything and everything I can to try to change things, to be a part of the solution, so those kids living in a war zone in Chicago can live to see old age.

I'm from Detroit. I have a t-shirt that says "Detroit, where the weak are killed and eaten." Now, you can hear tumbleweeds rolling down the street. People got sick of it, and they moved.

Arming yourself doesn't help those people in the ghetto getting killed every day. Demanding real change just might.

42 people killed in Chicago this month so far, making it most violent January since 2002.

[Satyr]

I hear people say demand real change......What change do you think will prevent Chicago people from murdering each other in record numbers?

[allegro]

Cops. Feds. More cops. More cops. More Feds. Then more cops. Stricter laws that help Feds and cops crack down. Then a shitload of cops and Feds enforce the fucking shit out of laws.

Better education plus hope and opportunity would help, too, Oh, and legalize drugs.

[miss k bee]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-8471178.html

those activists that heckled are sick in the head!. sick.

[allegro]

Really really stupid, too.

[50 Volt Phantom]

Ya except for the fact that this heckling story is a media hit job. The whole video shows the father talking without interruption for 15 minutes before turning to the audience and asking why they need so-called assault weapons, even then no one answers until he says "no one has an answer," a few people speak up then and the father clearly unbothered states that its an issue with a lot of varying opinions. End of story.

[cahernandez]

I think a big part of the problem is the perception of fear in a significant portion of Americans. After 9/11 you can see how media started selling fear in the news, and as a result you have a somewhat paranoid population.

I used to live in a house in Houston, and I asked one of my (Texan) roommates if we had any guns in the house, and she said there were six of them, all belonging to her and her boyfriend. I thought she was crazy, I asked her: "why do you have all these guns?". And she said: "don't you see THE neighborhood we are living in?" I looked around and it seemed like a really safe area to me (and honestly, we were living in a nice part of Houston, although H-town does have its rough patches). I guess my roommate said that we were living in an "awful" place because there was a relatively run-down house next to ours, inhabited by a black family (this street had mostly newer houses, that's why this other house stood out). But I wouldn't call it a dangerous place. I was born and raised in Mexico (have been living in the US for the past 5 years), I noticed that my perception of fear is a lot different than that of many Americans. For me it takes A LOT to feel scared (to date, I've only felt unsafe in downtown Mexico City, downtown Philly at night and downtown Johannesburg). Growing up in Mexico, and seeing how the drug wars have changed your city can give you perspective and ground you on so many things (economical resources, safety, etc.)

Now, I come from a town (Monterrey) where four years ago things took a turn for the worst, kidnappings became more common, cartels started hanging people from bridges (article), and there's all other types of crazy stuff happening. And my family has NEVER even talked about getting a gun for protection. My friends have never also considered getting guns for protection. It's not in our culture.

I have so many good friends here in the US, but the one issue I cannot agree with some of them is guns. I don't see them necessary (and again, you'd think that I would feel them necessary, given my background). I don't plan to give you a conclusion with all of this, just something to think about. Some Americans (I didn't say all of them) tend be very self-centered and ignore what's going on in other parts of the world.

[cahernandez]

Sorry for the double post, the "feeling scared in downtown Philly at night" was after the 2009 NIN show in Camden NJ, during the Wave Goodbye tour...that was an epic show! And I did the Eric de la Cruz fundraiser meet and greet before the concert...so many good memories