[I am] embarassed by this video/song. I find this music to be loathsome.

[aggroculture]

I haven't read this thread, but I believe I am not alone in feeling embarassed by this video/song.

I don't own the EP and this is my first exposure to Ice Age.

It's nothing to do with what I expect or don't expect from TR: I find this music to be loathsome whatever the names attached to it.

[admin note: this was split from page 41 of the thread for An Omen]

[Leviathant]

I haven't read this thread, but I believe I am not alone in feeling embarassed by this video/song.

I don't own the EP and this is my first exposure to Ice Age.

It's nothing to do with what I expect or don't expect from TR: I find this music to be loathsome whatever the names attached to it.

Cool story bro. Pretty much every release Trent puts out is prefixed with an interview where he says it's going to piss off a lot of people.

[aggroculture]

Are you saying I shouldn't post my opinion here if it's not positive?
It doesn't piss me off. I'm a bit sad it's so bad, that's all.

[sheepdean]

The "i haven't read the thread" followed by "haven't listened to the album" kind of makes your opinion a wee bit less valid, imo.

[eversonpoe]

Are you saying I shouldn't post my opinion here if it's not positive?
It doesn't piss me off. I'm a bit sad it's so bad, that's all.

please don't hate me, i'm honestly just trying to explain:

i think there's a difference between posting a well-informed negative opinion and saying that you're "embarrassed" by the song and video and that you find it to be "loathsome."

now, back on topic: is anyone else going to back me up on that being a prepared auto-harp that trent is playing? I NEED TO KNOW WHAT IT IS!

[Frozen Beach]

Anyone else waiting for Trent to pop out of nowhere with a rather immature response to some of the weak criticism in this thread?

[eversonpoe]

Anyone else waiting for Trent to pop out of nowhere with a rather immature response to some of the weak criticism in this thread?

for a while, i honestly thought my voice just was trent fucking with us...but i'm not so sure.

[Leviathant]

OK I'll have a think about why I dislike it so much, and maybe come back later.
That said I cannot help but resent a little the pressure here to only say positive things or keep your peace.
If I'd just posted "it's brilliant, I love it" no-one would chide me for that not being a "well-informed" opinion.

You're welcome to post negative opinions, but yeah, coming into a thread about the EP and saying, I didn't read the thread, I haven't listened to the EP, and I'm embarrassed by the video and loathsome music... if you're feeling shame from having watched that video, maybe you should start a thread about the video and talk about it there. Walking into a 40 page thread and announcing that you haven't read it isn't a great way to join the conversation.

[Presideo]

The more people don't like it, the more I love it!
Go on, go on.

Ok, but only because you asked nicely.

Lets get down to brass tacks. The glaring weakness is Mariqueen - she's monotone, dull, lifeless, mechanical, and every other negative word you can use to describe a vocalist. She's pretty much Paul Banks with far less versatility, shittier lyrics, and a vagina. It seems like they tried to circumvent this weakness (her voice, not her vagina) by utilizing her, and vocals in general, as little as possible. However, putting whispered, repetitive vocals on top of minimal tracks leads to a very weak output.

Take Ice Age for example: am I really supposed to find 7 minutes of guitar/banjo plucking laced with a tedious vocal delivery compelling or worthwhile? Continues 7 second vocal pauses are littered throughout the verses and chorus, with only looped strumming to entertain us in between. I keep rolling my eyes when the distorted atmosphere comes in halfway, as if that's supposed to magically make the song more interesting. Sadly, it's the equivalent of putting lipstick on a pig. The video is even more obnoxious: M singing to a window sill while three middle-aged men dabble with cool-looking instruments. Then the video starts to glitch when the distortion starts, as if I didn't already expect that to happen.

It feels like they got pissed at everybody saying their first EP was basically NIN with female vocals, and decided to switch up their sound as much as possible. But when you strip the electric guitars and underutilize both percussion and vocals, you're left with a very limp, turgid collection of music. The feeling reminds me of Radiohead's 'The King of Limbs' - the songs aren't exactly bad or anything; they just lack any major impact.

[/rant]

[jessamineny]

In light of the misogynist asshattery above, I'm once again requesting that Fuck You button. : /

[Presideo]

Did you actually listen to Ice Age

Sadly, I did (iTunes counts 14; it felt like 41)

The better question is...did you read my paragraph criticizing that song? Sorry, but I don't find long vocal pauses in between every line she sings to be dynamic or energetic in any way. She also isn't Whitney Houston so she can't rely on her limited range, which she attempts to do during the chorus. I'd give her a break if this was the only time she uses this lifeless vocal delivery, but she uses it in almost every song. There was a reason she didn't sing in the 'Immigrant Song' cover - she couldn't.

In light of the misogynist asshattery above, I'm once again requesting that Fuck You button. : /

Criticize female vocalist
Mention that she has a vagina
Get called a misogynist

Stay Classy (note: I didn't say she was a bad vocalist b/c she had a vagina, I used it as a funny way to contrast her from Paul Banks, who has also been criticized for being a dull vocalist, but has better lyrics, more energy...and a penis. I really shouldn't have to explain it, but whatever)

I saw someone post "For NIN: meh. For West India Girl: awesome!"
Curious what your thoughts are on that statement.

I don't now much about West Indian Girl, but from what I've listened to it seems like she was only used to harmonize with the male vocalist. It doesn't seem like much was asked of her.

[jessamineny]

Criticize female vocalist
Mention that she has a vagina
Get called a misogynist

Stay Classy (note: I didn't say she was a bad vocalist b/c she had a vagina, I used it as a funny way to contrast her from Paul Banks, who has also been criticized for being a dull vocalist, but has better lyrics, more energy...and a penis. I really shouldn't have to explain it, but whatever)

I have no problem with you criticizing her vocals, especially since you actually put some thought into it. I have no idea if I agree with you -- I haven't listened to 4/6 of the EP (I'm holding out for the LP). But there was no reason to add in the "and a vagina" cracks except to be vulgar and demean her as a woman. It wasn't funny. It was hateful.

[BRoswell]

I'm not sure why Mariqueen has to hit a bunch of high or low notes in order for her to not be a "lifeless" singer. I've never been impressed with singers like Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston who everybody went gaga over because they could hit some high notes. Unless you're someone who just sings without any accompaniment, having range doesn't make you a better singer. Since we're on this topic, what kind of range does Trent have? I mean that too. What kind of range does he have? Sure, he can sing higher and lower than Mariqueen, but if we're honest with ourselves, he's not exactly the greatest vocalist alive. So why do we love Nine Inch Nails? Because it's not just about the vocals or the music, it's about how they are combined and interact with each other, and in that regard I think Mariqueen's vocals mixed with the band's music interact and play off each other very well. If you disagree, so be it, but most of the arguments and comparisons aren't convincing me otherwise at this point.

[sheepdean]

There was a reason she didn't sing in the 'Immigrant Song' cover - she couldn't.

No, the reason is Fincher SPECIFICALLY CHOSE Karen O (note: it's Karen O feat. TRAR, it's her song).

Also, we probably need a shitlist thread in HTDA forum just for people to chew each other out about this kind of stuff.

[JessicaSarahS]

I'm not sure why Mariqueen has to hit a bunch of high or low notes in order for her to not be a "lifeless" singer. I've never been impressed with singers like Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston who everybody went gaga over because they could hit some high notes. Unless you're someone who just sings without any accompaniment, having range doesn't make you a better singer. Since we're on this topic, what kind of range does Trent have? I mean that too. What kind of range does he have? Sure, he can sing higher and lower than Mariqueen, but if we're honest with ourselves, he's not exactly the greatest vocalist alive. So why do we love Nine Inch Nails? Because it's not just about the vocals or the music, it's about how they are combined and interact with each other, and in that regard I think Mariqueen's vocals mixed with the band's music interact and play off each other very well. If you disagree, so be it, but most of the arguments and comparisons aren't convincing me otherwise at this point.

Yeah, Trent may not have the best range, but he sure does have great vocal projection. That was definitely something that caught my attention; I stayed for the instrumental work. I think it's difficult for some people who like NIN to switch gears and be expected to like a vocal style that is similar to something on the other end of the spectrum, like The xx. Not that fans can't like both, but I understand the disappointment that some might feel. I wanted her to use more than a whisper on this EP, but now I realize it's just a style that they're going for. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I agree with you that people shouldn't insult Mariqueen for it.

[DigitalChaos]

If I were Trent and I were reading this thread... the next track I release would use autotune to do a 16 octave deviation on the vocals just to fuck with all the haters.

[DigitalChaos]

[jessamineny]

Since we're on this topic, what kind of range does Trent have? I mean that too. What kind of range does he have? Sure, he can sing higher and lower than Mariqueen, but if we're honest with ourselves, he's not exactly the greatest vocalist alive.

TR is effective primarily because his voice has character -- and according to my pretty uneducated assessment, darn good pitch, too.

[Incendiary Lover]

Apparently this is where I show the thought police that I didn't receive enough Kool Aid Sycophant or GTFO

I have no problem with you criticizing her vocals, especially since you actually put some thought into it. I have no idea if I agree with you -- I haven't listened to 4/6 of the EP (I'm holding out for the LP). But there was no reason to add in the "and a vagina" cracks except to be vulgar and demean her as a woman. It wasn't funny. It was hateful.

I still don't see the hatred in his post, can you clarify? It was clear to me that Presideo was making a gender differentiation, maybe indelicately... But were on a board where guys call Lana Del Ray a slut because they don't like her video (I guess?). Someone we know uses pussy and cunt as an insult which imo is far more misogynistic than anything stated in this thread.

[jessamineny]

I still don't see the hatred in his post, can you clarify? It was clear to me that Presideo was making a gender differentiation, maybe indelicately... But were on a board where guys call Lana Del Ray a slut because they don't like her video (I guess?). Someone we know uses pussy and cunt as an insult which imo is far more misogynistic than anything stated in this thread.

The gender differentiation was unnecessary. Who doesn't know that Paul Banks is a man and Mariqueen is a woman? Bringing up her genitalia, then, only served to belittle her related to her gender. Sure, it was more subtle than the "Trent's pet project for his wifey" cracks, but nevertheless it only adds to the pile of gender-specific belittling she gets.

And just because there's worse shit on the board (that I, and others, don't see and call people out for) doesn't make this instance OK. C'mon.

[aggroculture]

Her gender is not an irrelevance. To me part of Presideo's point was how How To Destroy Angels make cheap use of her femininity and good looks: they put her up front, visibly exploiting her appearance, and seem to be hoping it will all work out. I think TR's lack of objectivity regarding MM is a major point here: he didn't release Tapeworm because it wasn't "good enough." And this is good enough? Sounds like MM doesn't seem to have what it takes to front a band. TR has range - (listen to the massive diversity of vocals on TDS) - but beyond range he has had a lot of creativity with regards to his vocals and brought a whole new range of tricks to what it means to be a vocalist in a heavy rock/industrial band. His vocals have character, intensity, passion, wit. MM is a very mundane vocalist. There is nothing new or interesting to me here. When she sings "I feel the wind is growing colder every day" - for example, here we have not only a cliched lyric, but nothing done to it, in terms of performance, that would redeem the cliche. TR's lyrics are full of cliche, but his vocal delivery often transcends and transforms them into something convincing and compelling.
Also, I wish we could discuss HDTA here without some people feeling the need to aggressively defend the band. Why can't you argue your case without resorting to defending the artists? TR, or MM, do not need internet defenders.

@Presideo reminded me how i fucking love Paul Banks' vocals, both in Interpol and Julian Plenti. I have absolutely no reason to demand even slightly comparable performance from Mariqueen but if it came just a millimeter close, i'd be so happy. damn you for drawing these parallels, which i now cannot forget!

Paul Banks is a great vocalist. I think he does wonders with his flat, monotone style. To me he's like a robot Frank Sinatra.

[jessamineny]

Her gender is not an irrelevance. To me part of Presideo's point was how How To Destroy Angels make cheap use of her femininity and good looks: they put her up front, visibly exploiting her appearance, and seem to be hoping it will all work out.

Those qualities aren't being used or exploited. She's feminine because she's feminine. She's good-looking because she is. You want them to make her look like a hag so that people won't focus on her sex appeal? : / And she's up front because she's the lead singer.

Why can't you argue your case without resorting to defending the artists? TR, or MM, do not need internet defenders.

Perhaps a thorough review of my posting history would be of assistance to you in this matter.

[aggroculture]

Those qualities aren't being used or exploited. She's feminine because she's feminine. She's good-looking because she is. You want them to make her look like a hag so that people won't focus on her sex appeal? : / And she's up front because she's the lead singer.

None of these qualities can replace or stand in for lack of talent. And yes, you're right: she's the visible one in the video because she's the lead singer.
In order to successfully front a band, you need something to say. I'm not as of yet convinced MM does.

[DigitalChaos]

Her gender is not an irrelevance. To me part of Presideo's point was how How To Destroy Angels make cheap use of her femininity and good looks: they put her up front, visibly exploiting her appearance, and seem to be hoping it will all work out. I think TR's lack of objectivity regarding MM is a major point here: he didn't release Tapeworm because it wasn't "good enough." And this is good enough? Sounds like MM doesn't seem to have what it takes to front a band. TR has range - (listen to the massive diversity of vocals on TDS) - but beyond range he has had a lot of creativity with regards to his vocals and brought a whole new range of tricks to what it means to be a vocalist in a heavy rock/industrial band. His vocals have character, intensity, passion, wit. MM is a very mundane vocalist. There is nothing new or interesting to me here. When she sings "I feel the wind is growing colder every day" - for example, here we have not only a cliched lyric, but nothing done to it, in terms of performance, that would redeem the cliche. TR's lyrics are full of cliche, but his vocal delivery often transcends and transforms them into something convincing and compelling.
Also, I wish we could discuss HDTA here without some people feeling the need to aggressively defend the band. Why can't you argue your case without resorting to defending the artists? TR, or MM, do not need internet defenders.

This makes for a fun out of context post. MM registers as Marilyn Manson. I am going to pretend this post came from many years in the past where Manson's gender and vocal abilities are being debated.

[NotoriousTIMP]

^
At first I thought we were talking about Manson as well...

[Canuckle]

Once again: I'm only commenting on the Ice Age video and song (with the first EP in mind). Actually I was just about to buy the new EP on amazon, and I saw the video had been released. So I watched it, and decided maybe I didn't want to spend that $5 after all. Are you saying I'm not qualified to an opinion on the video/song until I've listened to the whole EP? I can see that perspective. I can also see the opposite. The video/song put me off wanting more, and I'm voicing that reaction. I just felt negatively moved by that video, but maybe I should keep my feelings to myself until I have heard the whole EP: maybe the rest of it is very different from Ice Age and the first EP and I will be pleasantly surprised, who knows.

This is the exact context I was speaking of. Now your opinion makes more sense. Still, you would have to admit that 'embarrassed' and 'loathsome' are a tad harsh, no?

Simply saying: "I haven't listened to the entire EP yet, but after watching the video I'm not sure it is my cup of tea. Maybe I'll give the EP a spin on Soundcloud before I spend $5" is much less confrontational than; "Haven't read the thread, haven't listened to the entire album, but I'm embarrassed for the video/song and this music is loathsome" (Paraphrased of course)

All I'm trying to offer is a different way of providing criticism that isn't so brash. While I doubt this was your intention, it's no surprise to me that you received the reaction you did when posting that opinion on a NIN forum.

[aggroculture]

Thanks, I didn't know about Soundcloud, listening now.

[Canuckle]

Thanks, I didn't know about Soundcloud, listening now.

No problem! Didn't mean to come off crass, but this place gets very protective.

Once you take a listen you may find that Ice Age doesn't really fit in with the rest (in my opinion). One of the other tracks may fit your tastes.

[sheepdean]

Just to add on top of what @jessamineny said

Her gender is not an irrelevance. To me part of Presideo's point was how How To Destroy Angels make cheap use of her femininity and good looks: they put her up front, visibly exploiting her appearance, and seem to be hoping it will all work out.

This just reeks of sexism, in one of Trent's first videos, he was half naked and spinning, and has used sexuality and appearance in pretty much all of his projects (does he have a neck anymore?). Then you act like she is not even in the band: "they" put her up front, as though TR/AR/RS are the band and Q is just guest vocals. If you treat a woman fronting a band differently to a man, you're sexist.

I think TR's lack of objectivity regarding MM is a major point here: he didn't release Tapeworm because it wasn't "good enough." And this is good enough?

Again, you're acting like this is Trent's band. Not liking her vocals is one thing (no one likes everything) but acting like your opinion is a fact, and that her vocals are not exactly what YOU want from whatever you think this band should be is being arrogant.

Also, I wish we could discuss HDTA here without some people feeling the need to aggressively defend the band. Why can't you argue your case without resorting to defending the artists? TR, or MM, do not need internet defenders.

You are on a fucking HTDA board. Expect fans of HTDA to be here.

[Amaro]

I think @jessamineny is choosing to see something misogynistic in the Paul Banks sentence made by @Presideo. I believe the vagina bit wasn't actually thrown in the list of traits that, according to Presideo, make her a lesser singer than Banksie (after drawing a base comparison). Certainly it was adding to how they're different. I think it's obvious it was included just out of being silly.