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Thread: Innocence of Muslims controversy

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    Innocence of Muslims controversy

    Seems like there's more to discuss here than in random headlines.
    Here are two interesting articles I read recently: http://www.merip.org/mero/interventi...behaving-badly on the convergence of interests of right wing warmongers on both sides

    and http://www.vice.com/read/the-innocence-of-white-people on the West's disavowal of its own violence towards Islam
    Last edited by aggroculture; 09-19-2012 at 04:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggroculture View Post
    Seems like there's more to discuss here than in random headlines.
    Here are two interesting articles I read recently: http://www.merip.org/mero/interventi...behaving-badly on the convergence of interests of right wing warmongers on both sides

    and http://www.vice.com/read/the-innocence-of-white-people on the West's disavowal of its own violence towards Islam
    It's not complex a situation when you consider this isn't about a video. Existing anger is being catalysed because the opportunity has presented itself, and there's a lot of anger towards the US following a handful of opportunistic wars. The situation has also been whetted somewhat by radical islamists who've taken advantage of a feeling of uncertainty following Arab Spring, and stirred things through the same means that was spawned (internet media, social networking).

    Religion regresses.

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    Suicide bombings have killed more pakistanis in the past 3 years than US drone strikes... I would wager that Islamists kill more Muslims than America & Israel. Please don't interpret this as my excusing or justifying US/Israeli policy, I just wonder where the Jordan/Algeria style rejection of/protests against Islamism are in places like Pakistan, where people suffer terrible losses at the hands of militant groups

    As for the movie & furore... There is no side to pick, I despair at the whole affair

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    As for the movie & furore... There is no side to pick, I despair at the whole affair
    What bothers me most are the people I've seen saying things along the line of "free speech protections only go so far." Fuck that. People have the right to make whatever kind of insulting or offensive media they want to make, and I have the right to ignore it, or (in the case of this Innocence of Muslims trailer) laugh at it for being one of the stupidest pieces of shit I've ever seen.

    Maybe the protesters should consider that the only reason someone like me (and millions of others) would actually watch this lame fucking movie is because they're making such a big deal about it. The Catholics figured that out when they realized that their protests for The Exorcist were actually driving ticket sales up. Shut up and deal with it like an adult if you don't like it, nobody's forcing you to watch it.

    In fact, I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people getting all pissed off about this movie haven't even watched it. You would be hard pressed to find a college student film that's more amateurish and laughably easy to ignore.

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    but then, if the copts made this movie knowing full well that it would cause violence...

    I'm wrestling with it tbh. I mean do Nazi propaganda and those hutu broadcasts telling people to massacre tutsis fall under the protective remit of free speech? I'm not sure they do... so if the makers of this film intended to provoke violence, and that's what resulted, surely they should be held to account for more than just exercising free speech. The film is so badly made, I have a hard time believing it was intended to do anything but provoke - and imo they knew full well how intense the reaction would be

    It's odd, Bin Laden wanted to provoke an intractable conflict between the west and islam, but without being flippant, in 30-40 years time the afghanistan invasion will be water under the bridge. IMO what really caused the schism was the fatwa on salman rushdie - these really drew the possibly irreconcilable cultural differences between the two spheres into the global consciousness, what we see now is really an extension of that precedent rather than some uprising of assertive islamism ushered in by bin laden, zawahiri et al

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    but then, if the copts made this movie knowing full well that it would cause violence...

    I'm wrestling with it tbh. I mean do Nazi propaganda and those hutu broadcasts telling people to massacre tutsis fall under the protective remit of free speech? I'm not sure they do... so if the makers of this film intended to provoke violence, and that's what resulted, surely they should be held to account for more than just exercising free speech. The film is so badly made, I have a hard time believing it was intended to do anything but provoke - and imo they knew full well how intense the reaction would be

    It's odd, Bin Laden wanted to provoke an intractable conflict between the west and islam, but without being flippant, in 30-40 years time the afghanistan invasion will be water under the bridge. IMO what really caused the schism was the fatwa on salman rushdie - these really drew the possibly irreconcilable cultural differences between the two spheres into the global consciousness, what we see now is really an extension of that precedent rather than some uprising of assertive islamism ushered in by bin laden, zawahiri et al
    There's stuff out there way more intentionally and obviously insulting to Islam than the movie that everyone is freaking out about, and most of it is better made (which is saying very little). I'm suspicious why something so fucking amateur is showing up on people's outrage radar, when there's very popular videos openly mocking Mohammed in a much more effective way that seem to have been missed by these groups of outraged people... but perhaps that's beside the point?

    With regards to freedom of speech, no, you absolutely should be allowed to intentionally outrage people. You should be allowed to intentionally piss people off. You should be allowed to take people's most sacred held beliefs and piss all over them if you see fit. Should you be allowed to openly and directly encourage other people to kill someone? I think that's a different thing, and on the basic point, I'd say no. There's a very big (and obvious) difference...

    This whole situation keeps reminding me of The Satanic Verses, and that's unfortunate, because in that case you had a talented author writing a book that was NOT purposely inciting violence, and yet, the response was to encourage that the author be murdered. It's important to bring up the case though, because people react this way even if the work they're freaking out about is well reasoned and not a total piece of shit. We reserve the right to make fun of everything you hold sacred, and if you don't like it, don't listen. The people at fault are the individuals acting violent and encouraging unreasonable violence.

    EDIT: When I read shit like this, I know exactly where I stand on the issue. The "US faces very dangerous repercussions if the full film is released?!" These people know the film isn't made by the US government right?! What the fuck is this bullshit?

    Does someone need to make a video informing people how our media works in America? We have a large portion of our media actively attacking the leader of this country! We don't control what gets "released" onto Youtube. Fuck. Do the people who are really super mad about this even understand how Youtube works?!
    Last edited by Jinsai; 09-25-2012 at 02:50 AM.

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    But you can be intentionally provoking violence without explicitiy urging people to, for example the protocols of the elders of zion

    I think you should be allowed to offend people and attack religions too, but I think if it can be proven that the only reason for this film was to incite violence and endanger western diplomats and ngo workers, the architects should be held to account & not treated as people simply exercising their right to criticise/offend - because they're up to something a bit more sinister

    It's like shouting FIRE in a cinema and then saying you're only exercising free speech. It doesn't mean you bear zero responsibility for the consequences of your words and it also doesn't mean you have carte blanche to incite violence. I was on Rushdie's side during that whole debacle, but with this I feel the filmmakers are just as culpable as the rioters & have cynically exploited free speech in order to create a violent situation that will portray their political opponents in a bad light. If they knew this would happen, they are guilty of wrongdoing

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    I'm going to contribute to this when I get over the fact that Jinsai just said something somewhat positive about Catholics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I think if it can be proven that the only reason for this film was to incite violence and endanger western diplomats and ngo workers, the architects should be held to account & not treated as people simply exercising their right to criticise/offend - because they're up to something a bit more sinister
    I happen to know one of the actresses in the film (holy shit its a weird coincidence). I can assure you its as stupid and meaningless as it comes off as and was not intended to strike this kind of outrage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    The Catholics figured that out when they realized that their protests for The Exorcist were actually driving ticket sales up.
    Not really. They still protest films before they see it.

    I saw Godard's Hail Mary at a theater on the University of Michigan campus the day it was released, and there were nuns protesting out front, with candle-lit vigils, and there was a bomb threat. (the way the university security handled the bomb threat was hilarious: "um, excuse me ... could you look under your chair and see if there's anything under there?" We didn't find out about the bomb threat until after we left.) (It was a REALLY funny film, btw. Too bad the nuns didn't bother to actually watch it before bringing all those candles.)

    Oh, and don't forget Dogma.

    I think I read that Islamic scripture is very strict about saying anything bad about Islam or Mohammad, or about depicting Mohammed in any way. ANY way. Even if it's a nice way. And if you do this, they put a contract out on your ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    Does someone need to make a video informing people how our media works in America? We have a large portion of our media actively attacking the leader of this country! We don't control what gets "released" onto Youtube. Fuck. Do the people who are really super mad about this even understand how Youtube works?!
    Yes. Somebody really does. Why aren't they threatening to blow up YouTube? Anyway, I guess they're all pissed because America allowed the production of this film. So, no, they don't really understand freedom of speech. At all.
    Last edited by allegro; 09-25-2012 at 06:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlemonkey613 View Post
    I happen to know one of the actresses in the film (holy shit its a weird coincidence). I can assure you its as stupid and meaningless as it comes off as and was not intended to strike this kind of outrage.
    Was it written and produced by the actors? Really we have to look at the producers

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakoula_Basseley_Nakoula

    The guy's a copt with an axe to grind with islam, he has a history of transgressional behaviour... I remain convinced he did this to stir shit
    Last edited by Sutekh; 09-26-2012 at 06:14 AM.

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    I read at work the original script was over dubbed so script the actors had was not the same as what was on the released film. The filmmaker is an idiot he just gave islamic extremists further ammo to hate America.

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    ???
    It is possible to make a problem worse

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    Quote Originally Posted by R-Dot-Yung View Post
    I know we were BFF with islamic extremists before.
    The point is that while before many islamist groups had to fabricate evidence of The Great Satans attempts to bully and ridicule muslims, but the more Qur'an burning and Muhammed bashing bullshit people swing around, the less fabrications are necessary and the more their rhetoric is rooted in a form of reality.

    And that's a huge threat.

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    just in case anyone hadn't actually watched some of this before formulating their opinion.



    I am suspicious. I do not understand how anyone could become upset about this. Especially since people got outraged about this within hours?!

    This has been sitting around on the web since 2006, and nobody's freaked out:


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    I think you pretty much answered your own question about the first video by posting the second.

    In other news, thanks for my introducing me to one of my new favorite web series! Several episodes in and so far YAAFM is fucking hilarious, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    just in case anyone hadn't actually watched some of this before formulating their opinion.



    I am suspicious. I do not understand how anyone could become upset about this. Especially since people got outraged about this within hours?!

    This has been sitting around on the web since 2006, and nobody's freaked out:

    Most of them haven't actually seen the film. Also factor in illiteracy levels (high), it's just a huge case of chinese whispers. Even the literate, net-savvy ones in the middle east are posting whacked out comments on al jazeera and press tv etc - "israel and americas governents approved this film, it cost 500 million, it has all hollywood stars in it", etc

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    Fortunately, not everybody is losing their shit right now. A newspaper in Egypt ran a rebuttal to that French paper's comics portraying Muhammed, a few comics of its own. I'm not sure what those comics SAID, but it wasn't a general call for the French paper's immediate destruction. I believe the article said that the Egyptian comics said something about "fighting cartoons with cartoons".

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    There was also a peaceful protest in Afghanistan the day before yesterday

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    There was also a peaceful protest in Afghanistan the day before yesterday
    I'm sorry, when I first read this I thought you were being sarcastic. The fact that it's uncommon and noteworthy that a protest would be peaceful is so strange.

    But here's the part that is really frustrating me. You say that even some of the literate and net savvy people angry about this are confused about it having a 500 million dollar budget and an all star cast? How is it possible to think that after watching even 2 seconds of it?

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    They're just not familiar enough with our culture. When I say savvy, I mean it relatively. Seems obvious to us that the whole production is a bit wayne's world, but not necessarily to a guy in peshawar. Even if he has the internet, he still lives in and is a product of a culture that is very different to ours. To draw another example... India is pretty westernised, but I defy you to watch a bollywood film and not think "wtf?!" at least once. The forms and conventions are very different. 100 years ago Brits would flee a cinema projection of an oncoming train. What seems self evident to us media initiates, isn't necessarily objectively evident

    Similarly I'm not at all surprised that afghan tajiks staged a peaceful protest - because of my dealings with tajiks. We need moar internets so we can actually talk to each other instead of letting media and policymakers shape our estimations of each others' cultures. It sounds deeply cheesy and I loathe to sound like the teacher from beavis and butthead, but this whole debacle proves it to be the case

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    http://gawker.com/5943828/13-powerfu...of-muslim-rage
    http://en.avaaz.org/783/muslim-rage-...stop-the-clash

    "Early estimates put participation in anti-film protests at between 0.001 and 0.007% of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims – a tiny fraction of those who marched for democracy in the Arab spring."

    I think this is a very important point: there's people on both sides invested in making us believe that the whole muslim world is up in arms about this, when in fact it's a tiny proportion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggroculture View Post
    http://gawker.com/5943828/13-powerfu...of-muslim-rage
    http://en.avaaz.org/783/muslim-rage-...stop-the-clash

    "Early estimates put participation in anti-film protests at between 0.001 and 0.007% of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims – a tiny fraction of those who marched for democracy in the Arab spring."

    I think this is a very important point: there's people on both sides invested in making us believe that the whole muslim world is up in arms about this, when in fact it's a tiny proportion.
    And yet, percentages aside, it's still distressing when you read "Thousands of people took to the streets of the Afghan capital on Monday, setting fire to cars and shouting 'death to America'" in that link you provided. Thousands of people may be a small percentage of the world's Muslim population, but it's still a horrifying demographic representative of a group (no matter how small it may be) that is violent and horribly misinformed.

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    http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-4...eabagger-rally

    And there are fewer Americans than muslims...

    Now tell me, if you were a Pakistani muslim and you saw some of those signs. Wouldn't you think: Fuck Americans. It might be a small percentage, but it's still a horrifying demographic representative of a group that is violently misinformed.
    They may not all be vandalizing mosques and burning Qur'ans, but they're equally scary, because they're much more influential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elke View Post
    Wouldn't you think: Fuck Americans. It might be a small percentage, but it's still a horrifying demographic representative of a group that is violently misinformed.
    I'm not saying "fuck Muslims." I'm not a fan of religion in general, but unlike a lot of other people who hold disdain for religion, I don't have a special dislike for Islam. I'm equal opportunity when it comes to this kind of thing, and I'm sure you know that. Still, I know the difference between the majority of Muslims and the people who are acting like morons here. The people I'm particularly frustrated with here are the people acting like morons. I'll take issue with Americans who voice moronic and ignorant opinions too.

    Actually, just to even the discussion here in a more basic way, many times I actually do think "fuck americans" (out of frustration).

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    wrong thread again omg i suck

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    What I meant was: you're annoyed and frustrated by the dumb shits walking the streets shouting death to America. Maybe all those people need to see is a couple of American dumb shits to feel justified in doing that.

    As always, the vocal minorities are ruining it for the rest of us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elke View Post
    What I meant was: you're annoyed and frustrated by the dumb shits walking the streets shouting death to America. Maybe all those people need to see is a couple of American dumb shits to feel justified in doing that.

    As always, the vocal minorities are ruining it for the rest of us.
    But what's the solution? I mean, take away what's inspiring morons to do stupid things... isn't the fundamental unsolvable problem that there's morons out there?

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    The fundamental unsolvable problem is that extreme violence is hard coded into our DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    But what's the solution? I mean, take away what's inspiring morons to do stupid things... isn't the fundamental unsolvable problem that there's morons out there?
    More dialogue and cultural cross pollenation is the solution to problems like this

    It won't make morons go away, but it will help stop misunderstandings like this - the west thinking Muslims are ignorant and intolerant, eastern muslims thinking all westerners are part of an agenda to shit all over their region & culture

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