Innocence of Muslims controversy

[aggroculture]

The fundamental unsolvable problem is that extreme violence is hard coded into our DNA.

Let's not biologize this. To me it seems like these people, or certainly some of them - though they may express them in forms incomprehensible or even offensive to our Western sensibilities - have some genuine grievances against the US. They feel powerless, they feel humiliated - by US imperialism, oil interests, the US military with its boot firmly planted in the middle east. They are governed by tyrants who are in many ways puppets of the US - and live in poverty and frustration and ignorance. Thus many young men and women turn to extremism: fascisms and extreme movements always flourish where there are resentment and feelings of powerlessness. Part of the solution is for the US to change its politics of empire and world domination through military force.

[Elke]

^ I'm afraid that's what I believe, as well.

I meant magtig's post, however much sense aggro's making.

[DF118]

Thus many young men and women turn to extremism: fascisms and extreme movements always flourish where there are resentment and feelings of powerlessness.

It's worth making explicit that this leads to the desire for vengeance, which in turn motivates terrorism.

[Jinsai]

Maybe a good start towards a solution would be if the rational muslim community banded together, and mocked the people stupid enough to be upset about this ridiculous movie. Maybe the people who are a bit more informed about the way our media works could take steps towards informing these idiots about how we don't control what gets uploaded to the net. It's not good enough to just say "these people don't represent Islam." How about saying "Hey protesters, stop being dumbfucks who make us Muslims look bad! This movie is bullshit, and nobody should care!"

Maybe I missed that though. Have there been counter protests from Muslim groups who are saying the movie isn't a big deal, nobody should care because it's a fucking joke, and that the people making a big deal about it are irrational morons?

[liquidcalm]

Maybe I missed that though. Have there been counter protests from Muslim groups who are saying the movie isn't a big deal, nobody should care because it's a fucking joke, and that the people making a big deal about it are irrational morons?

well that wouldn't make a particularly good news story to keep people in fear of the middle east... </conspiracy >

[Sutekh]

Yep, there are such protests and groups, but they don't get much media attention because it's not as exciting/attention grabbing/profitable for msm as the crazies.

Same as the movements that oppose groups like Westboro Baptist Church and the English Defence League don't get as much attention as the groups they're against, despite being larger

[miss k bee]

There have been counter protests against the killing of the US Ambassador in Benghazi yes.

[Jinsai]

There have been counter protests against the killing of the US Ambassador in Benghazi yes.

That's not the point exactly, at least not from what I've seen. The counter protests I've seen have featured people saying things like "this doesn't represent islam." I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I haven't seen a counter protest where people actually point out to these outraged mobs that the movie is an amateurish joke, and that anyone who is angry about it is acting like a fool.

[Elke]

I'm sorry, but doesn't walking around the streets with a sign saying 'The other guys are getting it wrong' pretty much a clear effort in pointing out they're acting like fools?

Whether something is amateurish or not is irrelevant. An amateur antisemite is still an antisemite, and an amateur gay basher who rushes to it with two toilet rolls and an empty plastic bottle is still trying to hurt someone, albeit in a miserably incompetent way. So I don't quite see why that aspect of it is so important to you: some jerk wanted people to react, sure, and he got what he wanted. Some muslims are now saying: The burning and stuff? Not kosjer. (Or, in their case: halal.) Why do you want more?

[Jinsai]

Some muslims are now saying: The burning and stuff? Not kosjer. (Or, in their case: halal.) Why do you want more?

I'm really not sure, in so much as it actually needs to be backed by some kind of solution, but I want the people protesting to realize that they've been acting like fucking idiots. I want the people yelling "death to america" to take a step back and say "whoops, wow do I feel ridiculous."

Actually, I'd love it if this was somehow profoundly turned around perception-wise in such a way that it made Hezbollah look outrageous for their support and involvement. I want a "holy shit" moment of realization, and maybe it's a strange kind of (somewhat vindictive) optimism, but I actually think it's possible when you have something this monumentally stupid at the center of the argument.

But how do we get people to wake up and realize that they've been upset about something foolish, and that their outrage is actually petulant whining that makes them look ridiculous? How do we get the outraged protesters to realize that the people they should be mad at are the extremists who got them so worked up? I'm really not sure, all I know is that it's sure as shit not going to come from the West.

[WorzelG]

the people who are carrying out the violent protests have probably been goaded into it for political ends - they probably haven't seen the video nor give a shit about youtube nor artistic integrity, they probably don't own computers. they're probably really really poor, proper third world poor, living in a political / religious tinder box

[Jinsai]

they probably haven't seen the video

And this is a recurring assumption that I think is almost certainly correct, and maybe there's something to that. People need to see this movie in order to understand how absolutely ridiculous it is. Maybe someone can make an edited version that takes out the stuff that's apparently really insulting (whatever that is) and somehow broadcast it at the protests to show people how insignificant what they're bitching about is.

I understand that the whole thing is fueled by an irrational rage, but still, seeing even a few seconds of this production should take the wind out of people's sails.

[orestes]

the people who are carrying out the violent protests have probably been goaded into it for political ends - they probably haven't seen the video nor give a shit about youtube nor artistic integrity, they probably don't own computers. they're probably really really poor, proper third world poor, living in a political / religious tinder box

Not exactly.

[miss k bee]

The people who are protesting probebly already hate America anyway and the video whether they have seen it or not is just an excuse for them to vent their hate.

[Elke]

I also think it's at least in part about two cultural concepts that are completely opposite: irreverence and reverence.

At the heart of our western 20th century idea of critical thinking is the idea that irreverence is a good thing, that taking a step back from your own feelings about a subject and daring to mock the silly (and sometimes the serious) aspects of it is a good thing. Just think of the Holocaust, something Europeans especially still remember with a lot of gravitas and shame. Yet half of my arsenal of jokes is about WWII, and most of those are along the vein of 'What's a jew with a gas oven? A big fan of DIY'. Not taking yourself, your ideas and ideals, very seriously and subsequently not taking much of anything else very seriously is a very serious aspect of our democracy. The more we mock something, the more important we know it to be.

The idea of reverence, however, is extremely important to certain groups of people. Think of the Bible belters in the US, or those people on the streets burning flags. The simple act of burning flags shows how important reverence is to them: they can't think of a more offensive thing to do than to burn a flag. This symbolic act holds a great significance to them, as much as making a picture of the prophet or - God forbid - God. For them, taking things seriously starts with taking yourself and your ideals seriously, and spreads to taking everyone else seriously.

I've noticed this clash in my own classroom: I'm extremely irreverent, constantly making jokes about Jesus and God. There's a deep faith and a genuine affection for them in everything I say and do, but some of my religious students can't see beyond the words themselves because they take me very seriously. When I mock God, I mock God - it's not a playful attempt at speaking about him in a way that I'm comfortable with, it's sacrilige.
Many of my muslim students in the first months that they're in my class have difficulty taking me seriously as a religion teacher and a religious person because I don't take anything too seriously, while for them being religious means taking everything exceptionally seriously.

I don't know if I'm making any sense here, but I can't come up with a better way to explain what I mean.

[Jinsai]

I also think it's at least in part about two cultural concepts that are completely opposite: irreverence and reverence.

At the heart of our western 20th century idea of critical thinking is the idea that irreverence is a good thing, that taking a step back from your own feelings about a subject and daring to mock the silly (and sometimes the serious) aspects of it is a good thing. Just think of the Holocaust, something Europeans especially still remember with a lot of gravitas and shame. Yet half of my arsenal of jokes is about WWII, and most of those are along the vein of 'What's a jew with a gas oven? A big fan of DIY'. Not taking yourself, your ideas and ideals, very seriously and subsequently not taking much of anything else very seriously is a very serious aspect of our democracy. The more we mock something, the more important we know it to be.

The idea of reverence, however, is extremely important to certain groups of people. Think of the Bible belters in the US, or those people on the streets burning flags. The simple act of burning flags shows how important reverence is to them: they can't think of a more offensive thing to do than to burn a flag. This symbolic act holds a great significance to them, as much as making a picture of the prophet or - God forbid - God. For them, taking things seriously starts with taking yourself and your ideals seriously, and spreads to taking everyone else seriously.

I've noticed this clash in my own classroom: I'm extremely irreverent, constantly making jokes about Jesus and God. There's a deep faith and a genuine affection for them in everything I say and do, but some of my religious students can't see beyond the words themselves because they take me very seriously. When I mock God, I mock God - it's not a playful attempt at speaking about him in a way that I'm comfortable with, it's sacrilige.
Many of my muslim students in the first months that they're in my class have difficulty taking me seriously as a religion teacher and a religious person because I don't take anything too seriously, while for them being religious means taking everything exceptionally seriously.

I don't know if I'm making any sense here, but I can't come up with a better way to explain what I mean.

Well, maybe a nice gesture would be to have our president burn the US flag and say "calm the fuck down. Grow the fuck up. These are just symbols. Stop acting like children." That sounds like a good "counter protest," as much as I realize that it's just a silly fantasy.

I don't know what to do about it, obviously nobody is empowered to really "solve" the problem here, but there's such a disconnect between cultures that trying to reason it out seems so impossible that it terrifies me. We're sitting at a really frustrating time in our own country that this kind of outside perspective which misrepresents "america" in a a lot of ways is very unfortunate. Maybe it's because we're on the brink of an election, and how we seem to the rest of the world based on how we vote will play a large part in representing what "we're about."

I know you're obviously not a big fan of the religion bashing in general, but when I sit here frustrated with how to escape this stalemate, the only solution is to stop believing in ridiculous supernatural things that take precedence over common sense. Iran still has a death sentence for apostasy. It's mind boggling to people in the US, but to be fair, we have our equal numbers of confounding stupidity on both sides of the aisle.

Still, only the right is bogged down with mystifying denials of things they can google... and that's been my running irritation with this: if only everyone mad about this movie would just fucking GOOGLE IT then they wouldn't be so mad! Because it's moronic! It's like getting mad about a child's fingerpainting!

And, as you pointed out earlier, we have people over here who think Obama's "you didn't build that" speech was saying something different than it was very obviously saying... to the point where the opposition party used that soundbyte as the theme for their campaign. If only the tea party people would actually google the full quote about "you didn't build that," we'd be better off too, but it's not happening. We're too invested in being ignorant assholes... but at least the tea party people are content so far with making fools of themselves and offering up empty threats of civil war if they don't get their way.

I think on some level the solution should just be to act a little smarter, and to think twice and question what you've been told your whole life. What bothers me more about who wins the presidency is actually more related to what kind of discourse I have to tolerate, not the lesser of two evils. I'm honestly kind of terrified, and I cannot wait for November 6th to come and go, to get rid of this anxiety. I guess I'm rambling a bit.

But really, people need to stop being sad about some childish movie and grow up. I'm sorry to everyone who is upset about this movie, but the world doesn't revolve around what you think is special, and I'll burn whatever it takes to make you realize that I don't think like you do. I'll burn an effigy of Jesus wrapped in the American flag. I don't fucking care. GROW UP. Please, for the love of whatever the fuck it is you believe in, calm down about how some amateur post-porn director made a stupid 15 minute movie and uploaded it to youtube.

I don't know. Whatever the solution is, it is in the completely opposite direction of this

[Elke]

I'm above and beyond worried about this as well. I'm dealing with a generation of students who are religiously illiterate and/or see their religion as part of their ethnic identity. The confrontations in my classroom sometimes border on epic, in all the bad senses of the word. Coming from a secular background I suppose the disconnect between the two world views is even bigger than in the States, where at least religion (in however a debatable fashion) is part of public life and public discourse.

I don't think the key lies in simply abolishing religion. We've had this conversation before, in various permutations . But I think our need for ideologies to guide us, to bind us to eachother (which is, after all, also the ethymology behind the word religion) isn't limited to made-up-creature worship. We also have upcoming local elections, where the central problem is one of nationalism, of us Dutch-speaking Flemish Belgians and them - the evil, left-wing walloon frogs. There's absolutely no refinement or nuance in the debate, and there's a harshness to the discours that borders on violence. So in a way, I think it's inherent to human nature.
You're not going to like what I'm about to say next, but I truly believe that as much as ideology lends itself to fashism and totalitarianism on a political level, it also allows us to make our 'inner circle' bigger. There's something incredibly powerful about the concept of 'all men are equal' that is at the heart of christianity, for instance, as well as buddhism. There's something transcendent about karma, samsara, orishas, qi, umma, charity... that helps people broaden their perspective on the world. Humanism has similar key concepts, like humanity and dignity.

If we're going to cross the gaps, it has to be through conversation and education. It's why I'm such a big advocate of teaching children about religion as well as culture and politics, and teaching them about as much of it as you can. I truly believe that the solution lies in small attempts at local conversations between every single faction in society. Not in an us vs. them rhetoric (meet the town's Sikh), but in a 'we' frame of mind.

Education, education, education. Whether it's Tea Partyers carrying signs that are both stupendously moronic and incredibly aggressive or it's women in hijab burning the American flag, it's all born from ignorance.

[miss k bee]

http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/pr...lasphemy-laws/

[Elke]

Thanks for the link miss k bee!

[Sutekh]

Man, this blanket coverage of widespread anti taliban protests in pakistan is boring me

Oh wait!

[Jinsai]

Man, this blanket coverage of widespread anti taliban protests in pakistan is boring me

Oh wait!

This is in response to the shooting of Malala Yousafzai?

[Sutekh]

Yep, although they have been pissing people off this year. This shooting is maybe the PK taliban's equivalent of the Enniskillen bombing, in that even supporters are outraged