Page 3 of 11 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 316

Thread: Obamacare Upheld, Conservative Heads Explode

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    826
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by 50 Volt Phantom View Post
    I've listened to several interviews with doctors and ER workers in regards to Obamacare and they all say that no one is turned away from treatment, not the uninsured, not illegals, no one. They must help you, so again, your argument doesn't hold weight with me.
    We're not talking about being turned away, we're talking about conditions getting so bad that it's too late to save the person. We're also talking about how expensive it is ...to the tax payers... to take care of health problems with trips to the ER (which are usually a minimum of 10K, regardless of what procedures are done or not).

    Do you understand?

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Minneapolis
    Posts
    1,508
    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by 50 Volt Phantom View Post
    I've listened to several interviews with doctors and ER workers in regards to Obamacare and they all say that no one is turned away from treatment, not the uninsured, not illegals, no one. They must help you, so again, your argument doesn't hold weight with me.
    So then just to be clear...it is your personal opinion that there is not a single individual in this entire country who has ever died because they didn't have insurance.

    That's what you sincerely believe?

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    783
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by 50 Volt Phantom View Post
    Neat, I disagree, if you go to the hospital you will be treated, hell hospitals can't even turn away people here illegally. No one is going to die because the hospital won't help them. In a world where entitlement has become the rule and not the exception it's not shocking to see the attitudes that I see here though.
    You think uninsured people without money with cancer just waltz into hospitals and get life saving treatment for months without dire consequences? You think people just get organ transplants if they can't afford them and have waited too long because they don't have insurance? You think people with chronic illnesses just get all their medications and quality treatment if they are poor and have no means to pay for any of it? And you don't think millions of families are going bankrupt over this? The health services these people DO get is not enough and it shouldn't mean the end of their family's potential prosperity and comfort. For most people accepting the bills and going into debt over STAYING ALIVE is unthinkable and people don't want to subject their love ones to this kind of financial strain. You should not have to choose between life and food, or life and college, or life and a savings, or life or quality education for your children, or life and keeping your home.

    Whatever the republicans have put forth it would not cover those 30 million people in such a short amount of time. That is simply the reality. The kind of individual empowerment you dream of cannot work when so many people in this country are poor and no matter what poor people will continue to exist and they do and always will have just as much right to any treatment without uprooting their life because LIFE and HEALTH are more valuable than a dollar sign and they should not be weighed against each other. We are really debating whether millions of people's lives and health are worth a tax increase. I mean jesus most taxes go to paying for who knows what in god knows where. You know exactly where this is going. You know it is doing good for fellow Americans and you know there are millions of underprivelaged citizens benefiting directly from the tax. The horror!
    Last edited by littlemonkey613; 06-30-2012 at 12:03 AM.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Highland Park, IL
    Posts
    14,384
    Mentioned
    994 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by 50 Volt Phantom View Post
    Neat, I disagree, if you go to the hospital you will be treated, hell hospitals can't even turn away people here illegally. No one is going to die because the hospital won't help them. In a world where entitlement has become the rule and not the exception it's not shocking to see the attitudes that I see here though.
    Technically, and legally, that's not entirely true. You have to go to a COUNTY hospital to get treatment, otherwise you ARE turned away. Private hospitals are legally allowed to turn you away. But, they can also take you and then guess what happens? Same as what happens if you're uninsured and can't pay and go to a county hospital: If you don't pay, and you can't afford it, hospitals do the following: They sue you for what you owe, and they file a Medicaid claim.

    The former is likely to never bring any money, so then guess who pays for the latter?

    Taxpayers.

    Which is the surer bet if you want money.

    People who don't want to pay for, or can't afford, healthcare roll the dice and don't get insurance. And when they have an emergency and they can't pay, the hospitals are stuck with the bill so they file Medicaid claims and/or they pass the extra costs off to everybody else: The insured, and taxpayers.

    Another problem with our current "system" is that it is inefficient and broken. People should not be going to emergency rooms for a sore throat, aches and pains, etc. But, we don't encourage preventative medicine. We don't reward the healthcare system with having patients AVOID emergency care. Emergency care is the most expensive care there is, but we don't have nearly enough clinics to handle sick people; and, certain cultures don't understand our system and how it works. If you want to avoid immigrants coming from countries with national healthcare systems using emergency rooms to treat the cold and flu, or people who live in ghettos that are Health Care Deserts, you have to spend money educating people on how our system works and you have to build and open low-cost clinics that treat non-emergencies and provide preventive care. In the end, it will save taxpayers and the insureds LOTS of money, because people aren't using First Class medicine (ERs) to treat a Fourth Class illnesses. Emergency Rooms are FILLED with ridiculous cases of "why the fuck didn't you go to a walk-in clinic? where is your primary physician and why don't you have one?" And then the insurance companies have to deal with the bill. Or the hospitals are stuck with the bill, AND PASS IT ALL OFF ONTO US.

    The CANCER cases aren't the biggest problems, here.

    Do you know how much it costs to HAVE A BABY in an average hospital?

    THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

    MINIMUM.

    That's fucking nuts.

    And that's just one example. G's dad was on a respirator and the hospital was charging Medicare -- I shit you not -- $100,000.00 per week

    And then you get a statement showing that Medicare finally paid the bill ... A YEAR LATER. AFTER THE GUY HAS BEEN DEAD NEARLY A YEAR.

    Would YOU run a business and have customers you knew would pay you A YEAR LATER? OR MORE?

    And then who pays for your overhead in the meantime?

    Um ... TAXPAYERS.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-30-2012 at 11:16 AM.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Minneapolis
    Posts
    1,508
    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    hey allegro, before the thread drifted into the current debate, i was honestly curious to know what you thought of this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantra View Post
    What's your opinion on the "dissent" thing? They're saying that Ginsburg's argument is repeatedly referred to as a "dissent," as if there was a time when it wasn't the majority opinion. Is there another explanation for why this would be?

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Highland Park, IL
    Posts
    14,384
    Mentioned
    994 Post(s)
    EDIT:

    You know what, this is a HUGE opinion and a HUGE dissent, and I can't really give my opinion until I thoroughly study the whole thing. I've been REALLY busy yesterday and today in REAL ESTATE LAW, and I skimmed and got the jist of it and, frankly, didn't care about the dissent.

    What I believe for the most part is that Ginsburg dissented regarding a lot of the LANGUAGE used in Roberts' opinion, because that language, although concurring in opinion, sets precedence in a shifty way. Think of Roberts' opinion as a left-handed compliment, or perhaps worded in such a shitty way that it invites trouble. At least, according to Ginsburg et al. Also, she's dissenting on the Medicaid expansion decision. And, she's arguing the commerce clause vs. the taxation argument:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginsburg
    I agree with THE CHIEF JUSTICE that the Anti-Injunction Act does not bar the Court’s consideration of this case, and that the minimum coverage provision is a proper exercise of Congress’ taxing power. I therefore join Parts I, II, and III–C of THE CHIEF JUSTICE’s opinion. Unlike THE CHIEF JUSTICE, however, I would hold, alternatively, that the Commerce Clause authorizes Congress to enact the minimum coverage provision. I would also hold that the Spending Clause permits the Medicaid expansion exactly as Congress enacted it.
    More importantly, read the dissent of SCALIA, KENNEDY, THOMAS, and ALITO.

    If Roberts' had suddenly "changed his mind," the dissent of Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas and Alito wouldn't have even happened.
    Last edited by allegro; 06-30-2012 at 02:22 AM.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Minneapolis
    Posts
    1,508
    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    Okay, I see. Makes sense. I'll have to read through it this weekend.

    While it's true that this idea that Roberts switched at the last moment was perhaps initially reported on from a desire to tell an exciting story about the decision (everyone and their mother kept comparing it to the "switch in time, saves nine" thing from the New Deal, probably just to make this feel even more epic and historical by association).

    But now it seems to have been seized upon by conservatives who are using the idea for a couple of purposes: 1) to demonize Roberts (Glenn Beck is selling t-shirts with "COWARD" written below Robert's face), using his supposed last minute switch to make him look weak and flip-floppy. And 2) to help paint Obama as tyrannical by fueling batshit paranoid conspiracy theories about him trying to intimidate the supreme court into upholding the act. I read a Fox News article earlier today that used that same Obama quote from the Salon article about how he's "confident that the supreme court won't overturn the law," and then followed it up with all these bullshit speculations like, "Many are baffled as to why Judge Roberts would switch, and are wondering what could possibly inspire such an unusual change from a conservative Judge." And now, big surprise, there are rightwing blogs and message boards populated with fringe nutjobs theorizing that maybe Obama had something to do with this, given that, you know, he's a Marxist dictator and all.

    Ordinarily I find this highschool gossip bullshit fairly innocuous, but I do wonder how this whole switch theory will play out for conservatives in the coming months/years. I could imagine the birther types latching onto this as a means of arguing that the whole thing is invalid. "He's not the real president because he wasn't even born here. And Obamacare wasn't REALLY passed because Roberts was forced to switch! Do your research, here's a totally reliable blog link."

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    An unfortunate place somewhere in the Southwest
    Posts
    2,000
    Mentioned
    68 Post(s)
    Nutjob update!

    what this does...and what it is supposed to do...is pave the way for a “carbon” tax...which literally will tax you for breathing. If you can’t pay your “breathing tax” you WILL BE “indentured” to someone who can.....

    We the People will see this in our lifetime...
    That has been your nutjob update. Back to your regularly scheduled discourse.


    Edit: Ok, one more, because this one was...wow.

    The Confederate States of America doesn’t look so bad now, does it?
    WOW.
    Last edited by theruiner; 06-30-2012 at 03:08 AM.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Donegal, Ireland
    Posts
    2,924
    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    LOL. And these people are bitching because America's finally decided to join the rest of the civilized world in terms of healthcare? I think you people need a spot of ethnic cleansing over there.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    2,874
    Mentioned
    105 Post(s)
    It's a really sad day in this country when the inalienable right to good health is considered an entitlement.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    826
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by slave2thewage View Post
    LOL. And these people are bitching because America's finally decided to join the rest of the civilized world in terms of healthcare?
    Well, no, we're really not. Joining the rest of the world would be having a single payer/gov't run system, if I'm not mistaken. I think it's hilarious that all these conservatives out there are saying they're going to move to Canada or whatever other major modern country. It's pretty tough to find one that doesn't have socialized healthcare.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Donegal, Ireland
    Posts
    2,924
    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    So, this is a relative babystep compared to the systems in the other developed nations then? I've never really delved deeply into the logistics of this.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    826
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Yeah, it's just the beginning since modern America is incapable of doing anything decisive except bombing brown people who live far away.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Minneapolis
    Posts
    1,508
    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    ...and giving rich people a helping hand.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,722
    Mentioned
    32 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by slave2thewage View Post
    So, this is a relative babystep compared to the systems in the other developed nations then? I've never really delved deeply into the logistics of this.
    Yeah it is a long way to a UK style NHS, but it will gain momentum as it develops. It will always be under attack from conservatives with a private sector finger up their arse though, a health service is something you have to fight for unfortunately

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    826
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    This brings up an interesting question: Is there any push in countries with socialized healthcare to make the system for-profit? Does that ever happen from the conservatives in those countries, or is a large majority of the country on the same page in terms of having a socialized system?

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,024
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    In the UK we also have 100% private healthcare. i.e. you either pay for every consultation, operation, injection etc. or you get an insurance policy that works just like car insurance. The rooms look like hotel suites and all the doctors are consultants/professors who were trained under the NHS and either still work there part-time or have left to go private.

    It's not a move to make NHS care for profit, but it's a for-profit healthcare system that operates almost entirely independently of the NHS (they're still subject to care quality commissions and things like that though). If the NHS really struggles with beds and things patients get sent to these private hospitals, but the NHS foots the bill.

    Most European countries with socialised healthcare have this co-habitation of private/public healthcare, from what I see.



    Question: For those in the US, how much do you pay for insurance every month vs how much you earn every month? A percentage will do if you don't want to disclose your salary.
    Last edited by icklekitty; 07-01-2012 at 03:42 PM.

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Minneapolis
    Posts
    1,508
    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    About 20% or so. I'm not sure about this, but I suspect that mine is a higher percentage than most people, because I have a fucking shitty policy and because I'm practically broke right now, what with the booming economic prospects for recent college graduates. They keep raising the monthly rate for me, which really irritates the shit out of me. I think in the last 2 or so years it's increased by about 40 dollars. My grandpa used to sell health insurance, so he's gonna help me look into getting a better policy when I go visit him this summer, because given how little I make right now, it's pretty hard to justify the huge monthly expense of this policy.

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    An unfortunate place somewhere in the Southwest
    Posts
    2,000
    Mentioned
    68 Post(s)
    I used to pay around 6% a month for my insurance (back when I had insurance). Most of it was covered by my employer, so that was only my share. I have no idea how much it would have been if I had to pay for the whole thing (a hell of a lot more than that, I can tell you that).

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Minneapolis
    Posts
    1,508
    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    Health insurance cost calculator...

    http://news.consumerreports.org/health/2012/06/i-cant-afford-insurance-now-so-how-am-i-supposed-to-meet-the-mandate-in-two-years.html?EXTKEY=ZF262P000


    I did mine and I qualify for all medicaid. I'm pretty fucking happy about that.

  21. #81
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,024
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    I was curious to compare because 22% is the sum total of all my taxes ever (including state pension and policing, street lighting, schools, etc).

  22. #82
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Cardiff, Wales
    Posts
    735
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by icklekitty View Post
    I was curious to compare because 22% is the sum total of all my taxes ever (including state pension and policing, street lighting, schools, etc).
    Don't forget to take 20% VAT on every pound you spend on anything that isn't food which is technically there.

    In other news, fair play USA for at least getting its foot in the door with healthcare for all. We might get taxed a lot in the UK, but I think every single person I know is still here thanks to the NHS, be it accidents, illness or counseling . Being in Wales is even better as we currently have free prescriptions.

  23. #83
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,024
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by liquidcalm View Post
    Don't forget to take 20% VAT on every pound you spend on anything that isn't food which is technically there.
    Yes but we - and every other country on the planet outside of North America - have that in built to the face value price, which I barely pay for anything thanks to eBay. Also, some food is taxed - biscuits can be taxed but cake can't (for example).

  24. #84
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Cardiff, Wales
    Posts
    735
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by icklekitty View Post
    Yes but we - and every other country on the planet outside of North America - have that in built to the face value price, which I barely pay for anything thanks to eBay. Also, some food is taxed - biscuits can be taxed but cake can't (for example).
    true true, I was being fairly broad... but it is still tax money going to the government.. pasty tax rabble rabble!

  25. #85
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    281
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Well, my employer provided insurance deductible just tripled, with slightly worse coverage across the board and I have to pay even more into it, not only that but my employer has warned that the current cost increases are unsustainable and we will more than likely be on the exchange next year because the penalty is cheaper. Thanks Obama!

  26. #86
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Highland Park, IL
    Posts
    14,384
    Mentioned
    994 Post(s)

    Obamacare Upheld, Conservative Heads Explode

    That IS a big problem with the Affordable Healthcare Act; the penalty is cheaper, so employers will take the penalty. Also, the Act did nothing to reduce the cost of healthcare and the cost of healthcare in this country is nuts, which is why insurance costs have been sharply rising for at least 2 decades.

  27. #87
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    GEORGIA - You're fucking welcome
    Posts
    2,822
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)

    Obamacare Upheld, Conservative Heads Explode

    As with any entitlement program, we'll figure out away to mess it up, use the loop holes.

    My company ginormous and is self insured. Employee share has been going up for years. We really do need to figure out a better way.

  28. #88
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Montreal, QC
    Posts
    2,649
    Mentioned
    101 Post(s)
    You gotta love that the first bill introduced to this 113th Congress was a bill to repeal Obamacare in its entirety. Introduced by Michele Bachmann.
    34th bill in that regard, all of them failed. House Republicans wasted over $50M in taxpayers money to push legislation which cannot pass because it would ultimately be vetoed by Obama.

  29. #89
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    281
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    That IS a big problem with the Affordable Healthcare Act; the penalty is cheaper, so employers will take the penalty. Also, the Act did nothing to reduce the cost of healthcare and the cost of healthcare in this country is nuts, which is why insurance costs have been sharply rising for at least 2 decades.
    Obamacare itself IS a big problem, wait until 2014 when it really gets shitty.

  30. #90
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Highland Park, IL
    Posts
    14,384
    Mentioned
    994 Post(s)

    Obamacare Upheld, Conservative Heads Explode

    It has a lot of really good aspects, though. The fact that it didn't include universal health care (like a big group plan where we pay premiums) is the bigger problem, for me.

    It seems like a bloated, over-reaching typical government move. It needs tweaking.

    But these mega companies like Walmart that make millions in profits but their employees are on Medicaid need to be punished.
    Last edited by allegro; 01-15-2013 at 05:38 AM.

Posting Permissions