Active Member
I wasn't excited to see a Han Solo movie, but I must say that I did quite enjoy Solo after watching it on Netflix today. I honestly think it was better than Rogue One and up there with The Force Awakens. It's a shame it flopped but I blame it on lousy casual fans and hardcore fans who can't stand any change whatsoever along with the sexist/racist fans. But I was surprised by how much I enjoyed this movie. I didn't go in with any expectations and came away entertained.
Banned
Dear God, you're so right. Rose was cringe-worthy. She was not a character, she was a product. Carefully created to please a certain part of the fanbase. She's no better than Leia in a bikini or something.Originally Posted by Volband
she/her/hers
my wife and i have been watching through the special features on the blu-ray and there's a lot of really fun stuff in there. a good amount of the special effects are practical, the cast seem to have had a ton of fun working on the movie, and everyone behind the scenes was so excited to be making it. i really enjoyed it. it was a fun star wars movie, and i think we needed that.
she/her/hers
there's a big difference between having a character who appeals to a certain demographic because she cares about people as opposed to having a nearly naked actress be objectified in the name of nerd-boners.
Banned
Let's put it this way: I'm glad there are thousands of other movies with great female characters in them. Rose, to me, was a product. Like bikini Lea was back in the day. Feel free to face-palm this post too if it makes you feel better. ��
BADGERS
The Last Jedi is one of the best star wars movies. I just thought I'd add that to my post in order to continue the awful tradition of having to fight chauvinists and racists over star wars. It really has a lot of great ideas though.
Solo was perhaps one of the worst star wars movies. The Prequels greatest sin is that they are stupid. TFA shits itself in the middle act. Solo maybe worst for the worst movie sin of all: being boring. It just a list of things Han Solo had mentioned having done in the past strung together in a random string of special effects vomit nonsense and then those events undermined with shallow, underwhelming execution. Han Solo at the begining of this movie is already in character the Han Solo from Return of the Jedi, he really experiences no arc at all, and we receive virtually no insight into what makes him tick. His girlfriend Kira is a total empty slate who's actions basically only serve the plot, and Lando is given basically nothing interesting to ever do. The whole movie is sprinkled with teases for sequels that will never happen.
Active Member
Is there? She cares about people because she is a one-dimensional, brainless character who pleases the current trends. Mindlessly shoving boobs into our faces is by no means any worse than mindlessly showing down pretentious, fake characters.
I am not disappointed by Disney for doing it, because it really is the same principle as with bikini Leia:people will eat it up, so we will put it in. Corporations want money, and there is nothing better than easy money. I am disappointed that so many people actually ate it up, instead of being critical, and giving them feedback that there is a way to write good willed, innocent female characters without treating themas the dumbest person in the galaxy. Recent events about lootboxes in the gaming industry showed that with enough pressure, even giants like... well, what do you know, Disney can be motivated to arse themselves to do the right thing, or at least something better. Same thing could be achieved with movies.
Now obviously I understand the polarity about the Rose case. There is a turmoil in the outside world, and some, or rather, many people are itching to bring them up. Everything has to serve an agenda or oppose one. The only reason some people are still fighting with their teeth for Rose and refusing to see how terrible and disingenuous her writing was is because there many people on the "other side" whom (or whose agenda) they oppose. It annoys me, but I can kinda understand it. I mean, these people have a good case of "if they are doing it, why can't we?"
Most people don't even dwell too much on movies. They watch it once, cringe at the kiss scene, then forget Rose entirely because she had no depth or impact whatsoever. If someone is upset at the movie, it's 99% because of Luke's death or Leia's Superman flight, and if someone loved it, it's going to be because it was a decent mix of action and story progression, not to mention the stunning visuals.
Yes, and she pretty much failed at that, which is the funniest to me. I mean, they were clearly sweating bullets to make her as one-dimensional and likeable to certain people as possible, so much that the end product was a soulless human being, meanwhile DJ had the most memorable line in the movie about the war. It really shows you the difference on a writer's work when their hands are tied and when it's not. You simply can't force shit like they tried to with Rose. Writing a genuine, honest, caring human being without making them look like they have a brain for potato requires hard work.
Good thing J.J. is writing the last episode, because he solves these issues by not giving substance to ANY of his characters, so when everyone is one-dimensional, no one stands out like a sore thumb. To his credit though, by episode IX we should already have fleshed out characters, so yeah...
Banned
Amazing post Volband. Too bad in today's world you might end up being called racist or sexist for that somehow.
I'm by no means a SW fanatic so I wasn't offended by any controversial choice they made with classic characters. I just dislike movies that feel like products in general.
I have nothing against diversity. I remember being a blown away younger me some years ago watching Lost and thinking: This is amazing! They have people from all colors, places, backstories doing some crazy mysterious things while being funny, brave or completely fucked up. (Hurley <3).
But nowadays it has become a product. That's why they'll have a trans woman in Miss Universe or make Iron Man a black girl in comics. It fucking sells.
Here in my country, they sell a lot of t-shirts containing the text: "The future is female". I wouldn't be surprised if there's a white man very happy with his new t-shirt collection sales. Yeah, he might be helping a cause somehow, but I doubt it. I mean, texts in general are useless. You have to DO things to change things, unless you are only interested in Likes from your friends on Facebook (which is mostly the case).
But to be fair, I disliked most of the characters in new SW. Kylo Ren is kinda cool. That other guy who I'm sure was named after Con Air's Cameron Poe has zero charisma and I wouldn't care if he died in the first 10 seconds.
After reading the comments here I'm sure I'll never watch Solo. Count me in if they make a full Darth Vader movie though, he's badass.
I beg you not to be offended by my opinion here. I'm a good person, I promise you. If we were discussing it in person I'd buy you all a beer or snacks for sure. Take it easy.
BADGERS
All of those criticisms directed at rose are ridiculous in context of just about any character in any "franchise" or fandom, especially in proportion to her actual role in the movies. Comparing her to princess Leia is absurd, given that Leia has been in 5 of the movies with a major role in three of the movies while this character has a minor role in one. Your comparing a GOAT lead to a recent supporting character which is. The dimension of what motivate Rose in the story don't matter AS MUCH because most of her motivations don't drive the story or have much of an impact.
By even as much as I've said, why not pick apart... Emperor Palpatine. A leading villain for 5 star wars movies who's goals have always been frivolous and ambiguous and who ultimately is a scowling piece of wood.
That's one reason why paragraphs about Rose, nevermind the harassment of the actress, come of as sexist. Because the same people writing those tirades, can't be found to complain about Palpatine, all while this blank slate essentially drives the majority of major plot beats in Star Wars.
Many of the same people expected for a while to receive some depth or backstory from Snoke, and perhaps this is the exact critique Rian Johnson had intended that these larger shadowy figures have no use.
Active Member
You do realize that there are franchises (movies, tv series, video games - ignoring books for the sake of comparability) which not only avoided having the "Rose-issue", but could actually write very memorable, very real side characters? The argument that she's just a side character is completely invalid.
You are right to point your fingers at other issues, but you seem to deliberately avoid an important detail: the reason behind Rose's existence. Is Palpatine in IV-VI a one-dimensional goof? Absolutely. Is he and his writers above critixism? No. But since you brought up context, let's bring up context.
1. A villain is needed. Our heroes need to fight against something. Now, there are more complex foes in some stories, ie. when it's psychological, but in a futuristic reenaction of a medieval tale about the young boy who grows up to be the mighty knight, it is understandable that we need a villain with flesh.
2. It's very easy to get away with a bad villain. "He's bad. He's evil. He wants to destroy the universe. End." It's lazy, but does the job. You want to see him defeated, and in 99% of the screen time you either followed our heroes, or our actually complex villain (Vader). The one OT movie he got more screen time was VI, and he was actually given some much needed substance in the form of his manipulations. You could absolutely hate him when he wanted to throw Vader under the bus, and Vader throwing him into the pit was one of the most satisfying moments in the entire franchise. If Palpatine was a bad asset, no one would've cared.
Rose on the other hand was a forced moral compass. Writing a mediocre evil character is easy: put a robe on them, make them look exceptionally strong and menacing, done. They don't even have to utter a single word, a'la the Frankeinstein monster. Talking about kawaii things like love, saving others, and giving kisses right after you wanted to kill your crush to save him from... killing himself (???) just makes you look dumb. Look at one single counter-example from TFA: Rey refused to sell the droid she just met, despite her being very poor. She didn't hold a 5 minutes long PC speech about friendship, values or what have you. She simply said BB8 is not for sale. Bam, actions speak louder than words do. Was it dumb from her to refuse? Objectively speaking, probably yes. But she showed her values, and you've got to admire her for that.
It pains me that people either can't, or most likely (subconsciously) refuse to accept the absolute shallowness of Rose in a movie series where we have Rey, who is very, very similar, except she got decent writing.
Covering up criticism as sexism is also cheap as hell. So Rey is my favorite character from the new trilogy, but then I remembered I actually hate women and minorities, so I have to talk shit about Rose to get myself off? Please...
As for Rian, he didn't realize shit imo. He wanted to create smoke and mirrors, cheap thrills. History will judge his work, but I personally can't see him as the visionary some claim him to be, when he failed to introduce anything new or interesting. He just left a mess behind him.
You are absolutely right however about the harassment. First of all, the movie has 99 problems, but Rose barely makes the list. She takes up what, 8 minutes "alone"? Yes, she's cringe, but in a movie where so many things happened, you have to pull some real fucking mental gymnastics to say that Rose ruined the movie for you.
Moreover, why would you harass anyone over a movie? Like... what do you achieve by telling someone to kill themselves? Suddenly they become better? This will motivate them to have higher aspires? And what if they actually end their life? The movie is suddenly fixed?
Also, if you reaaaaaaally want to harass someone because you are a closeted psycho, why on Earth would you do it to the actress? What dumbfuck thinks she had ANY creative control over the disgustingly bad script she got? She was obviously just happy to be part of this franchise, and did her best with the material she got. Another actress would've given a kiss to Finn which made sense, and wasn't a complete shark jump? Hell no.
@ricardo : I firmly believe that you can't and shouldn't fight the current. Pop culture will always lay down on its back to please whatever it is trendy at the time. I personally don't fightit, nor do I want to. I just want the creators to arse themselves with quality too. It can be a transgendered, ethnic, pansexual character for all I care, just make them fit. If I feel like I'm watching some cheap propaganda (ie. Youtube rewind 2018), something is fishy.
Last edited by Volband; 01-15-2019 at 02:05 AM.
BADGERS
For now sexism and racism cannot be removed from the discussion of this fandom because of those instances of harassment and the extremity to which criticism of that movie has been taken. Those components of those criticisms must remain until that group is silenced, which is why talking about star wars and so many other nerdy things sucks right now. The conversation is simply polluted by those ideologies, so even though there are plenty ty of valid conversations to be had about what is wrong with any given story or plot, even though it is valid to not like rose as a character. Those people who have those beliefs have hijacked the conversation and we have to deal with them.
I don't really think about Rose that often. I really kind of forget she was in the movie when I think about it. When I think about the part of the movie I didn't like, I think about the spastic cgi chase scene that nearly ruined the movie for me. Star Wars has zillions of underwritten characters but I think Padme and Kira are actually probably chief offenders over rose, especially given that they have larger roles and a more significant influence over the plot.
Active Member
Let me adjust: accusations of -isms should be aimed at the appropriate audience. Some people like to treat them as trump cards in debates, which is silly.
Who the heck is Kira?
Padme is weird, because she got tons of screentime, but Lucas just couldn't make it right. Honestly, it was harder to fuck up her character than do it justice, but George found a way somehow.
BADGERS
Kira is the main supporting character in Solo, she is his girlfriend and everything she does is entirely random. Her motivations are hidden behind a "shroud of mystery" the entire movie so that her actions don't have to be justified. She has no personality, and it's hard to tell if that's the writing or Emilia Clarke or both.
Active Member
Oh yeah, lol, there was a Solo movie! I honestly can not even recall her face, and the only thing I can remember is how they got separated at the beginning, and how everyone crossed everyoen at the end.
That movie is strange as hell. I had a good time in the movies, but even my very first thought after standing up from my seat was that I never want to watch this again. I am actually in need of other people explaining to me this phenomenon, because it just doesn't make any sense.
I mean, I haven't even realized that this is not the TLJ or Ep. IX thread. Poor Solo!
she/her/hers
i think her name is actually spelled Qi'ra :: eyeroll ::
as much as i liked solo, i definitely had a lot of issues with her character. she has a couple good moments ("too many capes") but is otherwise this weird, nebulous person whose motivations we never discover.
Banned
Ok, so let me get this straight. I'll repeat what I said some posts above: I hated the character Dameron Poe (ow whatever). I thought he was unfunny, uninteresting and simply meh. Is writing a paragraph containing negative opinions about a male character also sexist? I'm a lil lost here.
she/her/hers
no, because you're not criticizing anything that has to do with him being a dude. women are put upon as a whole in society and are still often treated as second-class citizens, which is why a lot of arguments that people think are valid are inherently sexist, because those people are not taking into account how the world actually functions as of now. we don't live in a vacuum.
anyway, poe was fun in TFA but he was a dickbag in TLJ.
Last edited by eversonpoe; 01-18-2019 at 06:17 PM.
Active Member
I don't agree about TLJ being one of the best (I did love it though), but I 100% agree about everything you said about Solo. I had no interest in the movie to begin with, but I still went in with expectations that it would be just dumb fun and overall enjoyable. I was wrong. I hated just about every minute of it, and all of the call-backs/fan service did nothing for me but make me roll my eyes at best, cringe at worst.
Active Member
Poe is strange because he was a lame high school jock, which makes no sense. It's like they wanted to make a sensitive tough guy, which sounds D E E P on paper, but they failed to deliver and just made him look dumb. Sure, the storyline with Holdo made no sense to begin with, you have to sink to two-digit IQ in order to give a shot at explaining why the secrecy was necessary, but it doesn't really explain the writing of Poe.
I think a talented, brave, stubborn soldier who climbs the ranks and learns about the hardships and sacrifices it takes to be a commanding officer is great, and a tale as old as time. They botched it, but it's not unsalvage-able. I hope, at least.
Rose is different, because to begin with, we had no prior knowledge of her, so while the Poe from TFA was a rather liked, simple character, he had something to fall off from. With Rose, you had to judge her entirely by what you've seen in the movie. Not releasing a backstory comic about her for example is such a major flaw in my eyes, because it's a fun little way to compensate for the lack of time and creativity which went into the writing in her movie character.
To draw a comparison with my Poe critic, the easiest thing to point out is the lack of progression. Poe went from knucklehead hero wannabe to having his comrades blood on his hands, then to manchild, and finally, somewhat resembling of a responsible adult who steps in the need of time. It was by no means well-executed, but it was most definitely something. Poe learned many lessons. Rose on the hand went from a teenage hippy to a teenage hippy, which is hardly anything to speak home about. She was just as stubborn about her KAWAI DESU LOVE > war agenda, as Poe was with his BLAST EM ALL UP > actually using brainpower mentality.
It would've been a cool parallel if by the end of TLJ Poe learned some humility, while Rose learned the grim nature of war. They could both be true to their roots, just smarter about it. And I believe it happened with Poe, and I would bet good money on him leading some major offensive in episode IX, where he actually makes smart decisions and tactics, instead of sending all his men in as cannon fodders.
Also, it's not like Rose's character is unsalvageable. We will surely jump ahead in years from TLJ, so we already have an excuse if they were to retcon her into an actual human being. Not sure though if the actress want to go through this ordeal again, because some people are definitely set out to hate on her, no matter how well the writers would manage to turn her around.
she/her/hers
now this i agree with 100%
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