Page 26 of 57 FirstFirst ... 16 24 25 26 27 28 36 ... LastLast
Results 751 to 780 of 1687

Thread: Sexual Abuse/Assault in the News

  1. #751
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,731
    Mentioned
    77 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Seaward View Post
    The main point I'm really trying to make is that the approach is so very much not binary. A lack of belief for allegations does not require an inherent dismissal of those allegations, nor does a lack of dismissal require belief.
    I was responding to DC's suggestion that we distrust all anonymous accusations on the grounds of anonymity and clarifying what I meant, wasn't a philosophical comment on the truth of anonymous claims

  2. #752
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    born under punches
    Posts
    2,180
    Mentioned
    28 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by playwithfire View Post
    I was responding to DC's suggestion that we distrust all anonymous accusations on the grounds of anonymity and clarifying what I meant, wasn't a philosophical comment on the truth of anonymous claims
    I'm not being philosophical, I'm being precise in language to draw a line between different ideas that are always conflated. Distrust isn't the same thing as dismissal. Skepticism isn't always paired with the MRA "She should file an official notarized legal document or she's lying." shit. But to a good chunk of the crowd usually involved in these conversations, skepticism or refusal to take a stance is treated basically the same as flat out saying the accusations are false.

  3. #753
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,731
    Mentioned
    77 Post(s)
    Yeah, but you quoted me responding to DC, not to you, where I was contextualizing my take on a very specific thing, where I was using the words somewhat interchangeably, and within that context I don't think the difference between the two holds that much semantic value.

  4. #754
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,024
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Seaward View Post
    Because, like I said before, it's a topic where people respond very passionately as a sort of reflexive reaction to a lifetime of social power imbalance so people are just primed to destroy the life of an abuser without entertaining the idea that a story might be false because they feel like that's questioning the victim.
    Actually the social power imbalance works far more often in the other direction. Abusers can become President!

  5. #755
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    born under punches
    Posts
    2,180
    Mentioned
    28 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by icklekitty View Post
    Actually the social power imbalance works far more often in the other direction. Abusers can become President!
    Uh yeah, the power imbalance I was referring to was the power men have over women.

  6. #756
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,024
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Seaward View Post
    Uh yeah, the power imbalance I was referring to was the power men have over women.
    Yes and I’m saying that people aren’t as a result primed to destroy the life of an abuser without entertaining etc etc the rest of your sentence. Quite the opposite.

  7. #757
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    born under punches
    Posts
    2,180
    Mentioned
    28 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by icklekitty View Post
    Yes and I’m saying that people aren’t as a result primed to destroy the life of an abuser without entertaining etc etc the rest of your sentence. Quite the opposite.
    I didn't so much mean society as a whole, but the people driving this movement.

    What I meant was that very recently, with things like the #MeToo movement for example, we're seeing that power dynamic start to chip away in some ways - one of which is powerful men being held accountable for abuse. And so a lot of folks are feeling newfound empowerment, that's why I mean by primed. When you feel like you've been seen as secondary your entire life and you finally start to realize that's actually not accurate, it's pretty reasonable to band together with other people who also know this life and start working on the aforementioned power checks.

    And most all of that is awesome and I can't imagine too many reasonable people wouldn't support it. Except I think that it can result in situations like some of the people ('the people' being the people even involved in this discussion on a social level) being inclined to automatically believe any claim and move on because they know what it feels like to not be believed. Which can result in militant adherence to the one conclusion allowed and if somebody else reaches a different conclusion no matter how minor or disagreeing on the tiniest little sub-point, they get thrown right in with the MRAs, incels, alt-right maniacs.

  8. #758
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    9,216
    Mentioned
    551 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
    I’ll bring up the Duke Lacrosse case as great example of NOT jumping to conclusions.

    EDIT: @sweeterthan - not sure what the facepalm is for. Just pointing out that there’s always two sides to every story and not jumping to the easy conclusion that everyone is guilty just because the internet says so. The Duke men’s lacrosse case is an unfortunate example of this.
    There's a billion sides to every story, some of those "sides" do little to advance the conversation other than distract from the larger point. Jumping up to say "hey, I found a few cases where a crazy woman made shit up" doesn't help much to further a conversation about why women should be generally believed and supported when they come forward with accusations of sexual assault.

  9. #759
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    born under punches
    Posts
    2,180
    Mentioned
    28 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    There's a billion sides to every story, some of those "sides" do little to advance the conversation other than distract from the larger point. Jumping up to say "hey, I found a few cases where a crazy woman made shit up" doesn't help much to further a conversation about why women should be generally believed and supported when they come forward with accusations of sexual assault.
    How about my point that publicly crucifying the accused is not necessarily an implicit part of believing and supporting these women? I just keep receiving facepalms with no discussion of why that's apparently such a terrible thought.

  10. #760
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Milwaukee
    Posts
    3,929
    Mentioned
    75 Post(s)
    ^^^ That’s exactly what I was pointing out.

    Theres a faction of people here that automatically think “someone posted it on the internet, so it’s 100% true”. It’s ok to take accusations seriously, while the accused have the right to tell their side and defend themselves as well. Let things play out before judging.

    I brought up the Duke case since it’s a high profile thing that people here would have heard about. Some just like to plug their ears though when things let this happen so whatever.

  11. #761
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    4,552
    Mentioned
    234 Post(s)
    Yep. Like the folks who cherry pick things, knowing full well that they are the exception, not the rule.

  12. #762
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Laughingstock of the World (America)
    Posts
    4,579
    Mentioned
    104 Post(s)
    Posting with just one comment: read the full story, not just the headline, before replying.

    Hundreds of women in the UK prosecuted and imprisoned for lying about rape

  13. #763
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,731
    Mentioned
    77 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah K View Post
    Yep. Like the folks who cherry pick things, knowing full well that they are the exception, not the rule.
    Yeah, like, I just can't get behind the narrative of false accusations being some exception with regards to rape cases, where people are implying the prevalence is suddenly much higher and the consequences are much worse. I think that's cemented in a narrative (and just to point out here, I'm just echoing points Sarah already made) that places responsibility of being assaulted and the experience of assault onto the shoulders of survivors instead of the people who did it.

    If the phrases and language you're using (note that this isn't directed to any on person in particular) and the arguments you're holding up look awfully similar to the language used by people who are being victim-blaming assholes, like, maybe find better language.

  14. #764
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,024
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by theimage13 View Post
    Posting with just one comment: read the full story, not just the headline, before replying.

    Hundreds of women in the UK prosecuted and imprisoned for lying about rape

    Important to share.

  15. #765
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    9,216
    Mentioned
    551 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by theimage13 View Post
    Posting with just one comment: read the full story, not just the headline, before replying.

    Hundreds of women in the UK prosecuted and imprisoned for lying about rape
    I don't know what to make of this to be honest... I feel like where I stand on this is going to be predictably unpopular... but 3% of cases of reported rape were found to be "malicious and false?" That's fucking high, but the article seems to want the number to appear horrifyingly low. If there was a three percent chance you'd win the lottery, you'd play every day.

    Yes, there's the real issue of deterrence; that victims would be afraid to come forward should they face prosecution. But what's the percentage number on that outcome, where women face jail time after being falsely imprisoned for false accusations? The article cites an example, but it doesn't explore that issue as seriously as it dismisses the three percent of "malicious" lies.

    It makes an issue out of how these prosecutions against accusers have wrecked their lives, but I'm sorry, I'm not really feeling all that much sympathy for either Eleanor or Rhiannon, but I'm especially not feeling much sympathy for Rhiannon at all.

    The article also doesn't REALLY explore how much these false accusations fuck people's lives up, and false accusations are damaging to victims; far more so than the idea that the possibility of prosecution could be to someone who was legitimately assaulted. It's illegal to prank call 911 - we don't see that as a reason to be afraid to call when we're in an emergency.

    I don't like being the counter to this sort of point, but you can't just throw out how damaging this can be.

    The person who ruined Brian Banks' life SHOULD have been punished more than having to give back the money she earned in compensation for her fake claims. She was a sociopathic monster who fucking destroyed someone's life.

    I believe women when they come forward with allegations. Even according to this article, there's a 97% chance they're telling the truth, and I'll bet on the odds there... but I'll hear people out. But sometimes, people's lives are seriously damaged by this sort of slander, and I don't know what the solution is. When the accuser is anonymous, you can't even counter-sue, like Bright Eyes immediately did when accusations came forward against him; which is what I think most people would do when falsely accused.

    I don't know.... I hate even typing this shit, it makes me feel/sound like an asshole, but...

  16. #766
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Misery State
    Posts
    519
    Mentioned
    29 Post(s)
    Jinsai, I hear what you are saying but I think these are two separate issues that are crashing into each other because of the climate of our society right now.

    Believing victims before there is a conviction (or even if there is never one) is in my mind, separate from harassing and blowing up the lives of the accused before they have had their day in court. Telling a victim "I believe you, I'm sorry, I hope you are given justice" and then helping them pursue justice shouldn't mean we send the accused death threats and cast them out of functional society permanently before they've gotten a word in edgewise.

    I'll grant you this: social media has given many people the "crucify him" complex. On one hand - this has come about because, with Twitter, formerly powerless people have been given a platform. Now we can confront those who would abuse, malign and take advantage of us and others will listen. That is absolutely a good thing and something that has been largely missing from society up until the modern age. On the other hand, for those with malicious intent, it is an opportunity to stir up a witch hunt at a moment's notice. Which is obviously a bad thing.

    But this problem isn't exclusive to sexual assault cases and it isn't because of sexual assault victims speaking up on social media. It happens across the board with every issue that people are passionate about.

    One quick example I can think of is the thing that came up with the Red Hen restaurant that Sarah Huckabee Sanders was turned away from. Trump supporters tried to tank the restaurant using the internet, and most of them were actually attacking the wrong Red Hen restaurant in a totally different town. Who knows what sort of damage the "wrong" Red Hen owners will sustain to their earnings because of that response? It could potentially destroy their business depending on the political leanings of the town they are in, and potentially cast the owners into poverty. This isn't the only example of that happening due to online vigilantism.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that the pitchforking that happens to accused (sometimes unjustly) isn't necessarily related to victims speaking out but rather, an extension of a different societal problem that often reaches into other areas (like, but not limited to, sexual assault allegations). It's basically the shittiest Venn Diagram ever, but it happens.

    I think it's really important to give all of society's ills the individual attention they deserve rather than resorting to whataboutism. I'm not saying ignore the fact that some people have their lives harmed by online confessions. What I am saying is that we can address both the empowerment of victims and hand them the keys to telling their stories the way they feel comfortable telling them, and pursuing justice at the pace they feel comfortable pursuing it, while also addressing issues like public shaming and the broken criminal justice system and beyond. But we should give all of those issues the individual attention and efforts they should have rather than using the brokenness of one issue to reject dealing with the brokenness of another. And for sexual assault victims, anonymous social media confessions really might be the only avenue they have for finding justice.

    Anyway, I'm admitting social media confessions aren't a perfect method. But there aren't many reliable options out there for victims in the area of sexual assault and that's why a lot of them resort to it.

    For what it's worth, I don't think you are an asshole. I just think the "but 3% of people are wrongly accused and have their lives ruined" response doesn't actually move anything forward either. And for those who are victims, it's just a softer version of "but I don't think he would do that" which sexual assault victims have been hearing for centuries.

    Anyway, I guess my point is that bringing up false accusations doesn't move the needle forward for those who have been victimized and it really doesn't help those who have been falsley accused either because the bigger problems that perpetuate false accusations (of all kinds of crimes and even just social taboos) are things like mental health issues, pitchfork culture as a whole and a slow and inept criminal justice system. Victims speaking up and being believed and empowered doesn't actually contribute to that issue.

    Hope that rambling mess made sense. If it's any consolation at all - i've seen this from both ends. I was badly abused (physically) by my former stepfather and nobody believed me at the time because he was a cop and I was a kid. Later in life, my husband was accused of physical abuse that he did not commit. Both were deeply damaging and traumatic, yes. Both of us sustained damaged reputations as a result of these situations. But I don't think (and my husband would agree) the trauma was comparable and I don't think me speaking up contributed to the false accusation my husband later received.
    Last edited by eachpassingphase; 07-01-2018 at 10:06 PM. Reason: clarification

  17. #767
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    9,216
    Mentioned
    551 Post(s)
    @eachpassingphase , I agree with you. If you look at some of the other things I've said in this thread, we're pretty much 100% on the same page here. I agree too that these sorts of accusations, anonymous or not, are not relegated singularly to this area... however, there's a specific sort of damaging weight to this kind of accusation. I realize and understand that it's an absolute outlier, and I'm glad that modern media is giving voices to people... but if we're going to run into the "but what about the damage of false accusations" counterpoint (and we're seeing it here), it needs to at least be addressed for what it is.

    I think victims should be treated with absolute support, and I think it's disgraceful that there's a pattern of dismissal. However, when somebody tramples on that sort of respect and trust, it's horrifying. I understand the points in the article about mental illness, but... I don't know, I hate flipping back and forth on this topic, as it makes me sound wishy washy on where I stand, but I think it's horrifying to make a false accusation about something so awful, and it would be naive to ignore how easy it is to falsify anonymously.

    I don't like Mitch McConnell very much right now (or ever).... I could make a fake Twitter account where I claim to be a high school-aged girl and claim that he groped me at a fundraising party. I won't, because I'm not a complete monster, but I could get away with it. This sort of thing needs to be evaluated very carefully when we're talking about public figures.

    We're making a lot of progress in giving a platform for victims to speak out, and we're taking down powerful people who deserve to be taken down. If we're not careful though, this sort of stuff being blanket dismissed undermines it, so I think it's worth being a little wary of at the least. I can understand not wanting to implement UK style prosecution of false claims, but if we toe around the issue too much, it'll be abused as a way to troll people if we put abject trust in anonymous internet claims.

  18. #768
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    born under punches
    Posts
    2,180
    Mentioned
    28 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    I don't like Mitch McConnell very much right now (or ever).... I could make a fake Twitter account where I claim to be a high school-aged girl and claim that he groped me at a fundraising party. I won't, because I'm not a complete monster
    I mean, if there's one person who's earned it...

  19. #769
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Misery State
    Posts
    519
    Mentioned
    29 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Seaward View Post
    I mean, if there's one person who's earned it...
    Turtle McTurtleface deserves far worse, honestly. What an absolute turd of a human being.

  20. #770
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    371
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Seaward View Post
    How about my point that publicly crucifying the accused is not necessarily an implicit part of believing and supporting these women? I just keep receiving facepalms with no discussion of why that's apparently such a terrible thought.
    That’s probably because the subject is so divisive and a lot of people react to it in such a visceral way that there is no room for any questioning, or any position other that “you’re all in and agree and support every bit of it or you are part of the problem”.

    I think people should stop reacting through their stomachs and take the time to question things, give it a couple spins and use a bit of common sense. Subjecting these topics and individual cases of assault/rape to a normal thought process shouldn’t give others a free ticket to call you a rape apologist, victim blamer, or anything of the sort.

    Sadly, that kind of fascist behaviour only alienates people who might otherwise be more active to support these causes and pushes others to either completely remove themselves from the discussion, or just take a backseat.

  21. #771
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    371
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah K View Post
    Yep. Like the folks who cherry pick things, knowing full well that they are the exception, not the rule.
    So some people get their lives destroyed, but they’re the exception, so it’s not so bad, it’s just colateral damage for the greater good. You have to break eggs, right? No biggie. It’s not even necessary to mention it.

  22. #772
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    4,552
    Mentioned
    234 Post(s)
    You know who gets their lives destroyed even more often? Rape victims. But we both know that isn't what y'all really care about.

  23. #773
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,731
    Mentioned
    77 Post(s)
    Yeah, honestly, I don't think tremolo thinks tremolo is trolling but their behavior basically comes out in the wash as the same shit. I'm pretty done engaging.

    ("Oooh, but playwithfire, you're engaging right now." Yes, Greek chorus of my own creation, but only to point out that between the swaths of low-empathy devils advocacy and repetitive arguments that I just... gave up there. Cheers.)

  24. #774
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    371
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)

    Sexual Asshatery in the News

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah K View Post
    You know who gets their lives destroyed even more often? Rape victims. But we both know that isn't what y'all really care about.
    That’s exactly what I mean: you can’t care ir show concern for other aspects of the issue other than the ones I think are worth the attention. If you care about 2 things, then you’re not caring about my thing (the really important one, the one I care about) enough or at all. You either adhere 100% to the way I see it, then you don’t care about it, or you are against us.

    MY WAY! MY WAY! MYYYYY WAAAAAAAAAY!!!

    It’s absolutely ridiculous. Nobody is stating that we should take away any attention or caring for victims of abuse. We can walk and chew gum and even breathe at the same time. It’s absolutely idiotic* how you think you know me and know what I care and don’t care about.

    Same goes to playwithfire... oh, you didn’t put on your blinders, he is a troll, he is trolling without even knowing. How dare you care for anything else and even mention it? You are pretty much blaming the victims...

    * Idiotic in the etymologic sense of the word: the unwillingness to listen to anyone cause your head is too dee inside your own bumbum.
    Last edited by tremolo; 07-02-2018 at 08:28 AM.

  25. #775
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    the beginning of the end
    Posts
    9,342
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by eachpassingphase View Post
    Turtle McTurtleface deserves far worse, honestly. What an absolute turd of a human being.
    that guy always looks like he's having a hard time taking a shit. Just saying. You guys think about that next time you see him, seriously.

  26. #776
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Black Mountain Side
    Posts
    440
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Justin Trudeau groped a girl at a music festival, then he pulled a Ben Affleck. It seems he forgot about the incident. The woman however didn't.
    https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/...bvious-reason/

  27. #777
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    4,552
    Mentioned
    234 Post(s)
    I highly recommend that everyone, and especially cis-het white men watch Hahhah Gadsby's Nanette special on Netflix. I talked about it in the stand up thread, but this is one of the most important pieces of art that I have ever seen in my life. In this, the topic of men's reputations mattering more than the lives and safety of women comes up. Uncomfortable reality all around the world.

  28. #778
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    born under punches
    Posts
    2,180
    Mentioned
    28 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah K View Post
    men's reputations mattering more than the lives and safety of women comes up.
    Except that's an argument nobody here is making from what I can tell. Not every mention of the concepts of 'verifying information' or 'skepticism' are dogwhistles for "Men's reputations mater more than women's safety." Certain people do more or less say that in so many words, but those people are easy to pick out - they're not the type to continue trying to have a sincere conversation about the topic. A moron who happens to accidentally stumble his way to a single point that's reasonable doesn't inherently make that idea unreasonable simply due to it being made by a moron. And a person making a point that's often made by morons isn't itself a litmus test for whether that person's a moron, especially when 99% of their other thoughts on a topic are antithetical to the moron's.

  29. #779
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    4,552
    Mentioned
    234 Post(s)
    Okay, you've tried to explain my stance to me 8,000 times now. Please move the fuck on.

  30. #780
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    born under punches
    Posts
    2,180
    Mentioned
    28 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah K View Post
    Okay, you've tried to explain my stance to me 8,000 times now. Please move the fuck on.
    Maybe it's because you keep arguing with points nobody is making and acting like people are idiots for saying things they didn't say without acknowledging the actual points being made.

Posting Permissions