The Trayvon Martin killing

[chris]

24 currently. Wow I had no idea it was that many. How troubling.

It appears to have been one of the many "model laws" developed at least in part by the conservative group ALEC, which then farms the bills out to state legislators almost verbatim. It's hypocrisy that the party of "states' rights" would allow its local legislation to be churned out by a nation-wide lobbying firm.

How ALEC took Florida's License to Kill law national

[Space Suicide]

I'm fairly certain that the hardcore 2nd amendment people already believe the democrats want to take their guns away, and they already flock to the right when it comes to who they vote for.

Yeah! People in 'Mericuh gotta have yer guns in your household. Just gotta.

[sweeterthan]

Yeah! People in 'Mericuh gotta have yer guns in your household. Just gotta.

especially when those hooded folks are walking around in the rain.

Seriously, the hoodie defense for Zimmerman is just fucking stupid. Ask Geraldo.

[Dra508]

This is why I find this all fucked up. Because young black men have to still say this and be aware like this. It's a fucking crying shame.

http://ideas.time.com/2012/03/21/how...p-main-feature

[theruiner]

By pointing out that racism exists, you're only propagating further racism!!! /sarcasm

*rolls eyes into back of head*

[littlemonkey613]

^ hahahahaa
I literally cannot believe that someone could think centuries of social construction, prejudice and bigoted culture can go away in a matter of decades.
Idk how the fuck one walks outside, turns on a TV or opens a newspaper in this country and goes "inequality? I just don't see it." The only excuse is if your in a fucking coma.

[50 Volt Phantom]

First of all, if anyone really tried to take guns away from people in this country this whole nation would tear apart. Second of all, you all can be shocked that such laws as Castle Doctrine and "stand you ground" exist, but I for one am not going to bend over and just take it if someone is threatening me or enters my home. I am lucky enough to live in a state with the Castle Doctrine, and if you come into my home unwelcomed I will shoot you after a verbal warning no matter your attire, race, or sex.

Chris, he should have followed the dispatchers insistence that he stop, but I understand the mindset of enough is enough that he seemed to have had at the moment. I lived in a neighborhood and an apartment complex that had a spree of armed robberies, break ins, and at least one blatant murder, and it wasn't until the neighbors really stepped up their alertness, and made it clear that actions have consequences at both locations that the crime died down. Living in the south I've also felt the uncomfortableness, the coldness, and the unwelcomeness of being white on numerous occasions, I've been in stores where no clerk would even acknowledge my existence, I've been in restaurants where I basically just left because the employees and patrons made it too uncomfortable for me, I happened to look at an apartment in apparently the wrong neighborhood as a group ran at my car and were yelling "get the fuck out of here whitey" and "cracker" at me, I've had guys walk up to my car and yell at me and act like they're pulling a gun on me, so I have had a taste of race related ridiculousness.

You all can laugh and jerk each other off about how funny the hoodie defense thing is and how staying in the privileged vs. oppressed mindset only continues racial division all you want, if you're not even willing to entertain the idea that someone with a hoodie on appears more suspicious then someone that doesn't just by the nature of covering their face then continuing this conversation is basically a waste of time. Funny, that's really how most discussions with the circle jerk here are.

[50 Volt Phantom]

^ hahahahaa
I literally cannot believe that someone could think centuries of social construction, prejudice and bigoted culture can go away in a matter of decades.

It definitely can't with people in your mindset around.

[littlemonkey613]

^You have yet to address my point about the nature of white-black oppression. All you keep saying is its not true just because.....
Answer me this then, what makes you white besides your white privilege in this society?
You can't say its being of European decent because this has never been the marker (Italians and such weren't seen as white until they had white privelage), you can't say its your skin color because my latina family is very pale.

What makes you white is that you are not a minority. Do you know what that means? You cannot be considered a minority if you are not subjugated systematically...so you figure out the rest. Being apart of the majority IMPLIES being an oppressor, just as I as a heterosexual can articulate ways in which I have helped uphold hetereonormalcy and been an agent of oppression, you whether you want to admit it or not have benefited from white privilege and in turn been an agent yourself.

Your experiences with racism are isolated incidences and horrible ones at that. Do you understand the difference between that and oppression that is systematic?

Are you sure you have no problem with sociology? Because you have yet to articulate that you understand the nature of race, and I don't mean in terms of experiences, I mean you don't understand how race is socially constructed and what that construction is based on, or how it is upheld...

EDIT: This quote is all to relevant.
"The silences and denials surrounding privilege are the key political tool here. They keep the thinking about equality or equity incomplete, protecting unearned advantage and conferred dominance by making these subject taboo. Most talk by whites about equal opportunity seems to me now to be about equal opportunity to try to get into a position of dominance while denying that systems of dominance exist." - Peggy McIntosh

And something else lovely:
"Color-blind racism has crystallized as the dominant racial ideology of the United States. Whites no longer need to utter the ugly racial epithets of the past, claim God made whites superior, or argue that minorities are inferior biological beings in order to keep them in a subordinated position. Instead, whites chastise minorities in a color-blind way and, by default, defend their racial privilege in a “now you see it, now you don’t fashion.” Color-blind racism is thus a formidable weapon to maintain white privilege."

And finally an actual study:
groups.psych.northwestern.edu/spcl/.../colorblind_final_000.pdf
"Results suggested that, relative to the multicultural perspective, the color-blind perspective generated
greater racial attitude bias measured both explicitly and on the more unobtrusive reaction time measure. " Yeah...

[chris]

First of all, if anyone really tried to take guns away from people in this country this whole nation would tear apart.

No one has said that, stop putting words into people’s mouths. You’re using the slippery slope argument to create fear, which is what conservatives do time and again.

if you come into my home unwelcomed I will shoot you

Trayvon didn’t come into Zimmerman’s house, he was out on the street, where he had a right to be. I know that you know that, so the only conclusion I can come to is that you’re spreading disinformation purposely.

continuing this conversation is basically a waste of time.

Agreed. Someone presents a fact, you counter with your opinion. You’re not the first douche to troll ETS with your blind ideology, and I’m sure you won’t be the last. Just keep shilling the party line, I’m done wasting time replying to your bullshit.

[Tiz]

You all can laugh and jerk each other off about how funny the hoodie defense thing is and how staying in the privileged vs. oppressed mindset only continues racial division all you want, if you're not even willing to entertain the idea that someone with a hoodie on appears more suspicious then someone that doesn't just by the nature of covering their face then continuing this conversation is basically a waste of time. Funny, that's really how most discussions with the circle jerk here are.

The hoodie argument isn't just a facile argument. It's fucking stupid.

Aren't we on a forum dedicated to a band that helped perpetuate the stereotype of donning piercings, leather, tattoos, studded boots, and other things that would intimidate the average person?

[allegro]

It was RAINING outside, for Christ sake. I put my hood up over my head when it's raining all the time! Seriously! Doesn't most everybody? Unless you have an umbrella?

Actually, the fact that it was raining and this kid was "walking around" in rain was what riled Zimmerman. He mentions it in his call.

Trust me, the hoodie will mean ZERO to a grand jury when determining if Zimmerman should be charged with manslaughter. Zimmerman reported his suspicion, the police told him to do nothing and wait for the police at the gate. Zimmerman ignored the police and made the first move of aggression by following the victim.

It's been made pretty clear via various reports that this is not a "bad neighborhood" but is, instead, a fairly nice, gated community. The people who live in the community and in the village where it occurred have been desperately trying to convey to the public, via the media, that this is not a racist community full of crime but is, instead, a somewhat integrated, tolerant, middle class community, and that one overzealous riled-up confused Zimmerman does not represent the entire community or the nature of the crime status. NO community is exempt from occasional burglaries. Let's not automatically assume that the community in question is dangerous gang territory where the police never respond and the citizens decide to take the law into their own hands; the community speaking to the media is making it clear that crime was not a big issue, and this was only Zimmerman's issue.

The reason there are protesters down there isn't related to the community or an overall sense of racism in America; it's because the acting police chief (who I guess happens to be black) refused to file manslaughter charges. But, now that I am aware of this Florida "Stand Your Ground" law, I understand why Zimmerman has not yet been arrested: The law has to be tested via case law before law enforcement even knows how to use it. Or how not use it. Everybody's covering their asses.

[chris]

Reports of justifiable homicides tripled after the law went into effect, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. Last year, twice a week, on average, someone's killing was considered warranted. The Times searched major Florida newspapers and found at least 93 cases in the past five years in which the new law was a factor. Those are just the confrontations that made the papers. In 57 of them, those who used force were either not charged with a crime or the charges were dropped by prosecutors or dismissed by a judge before trial. Seven other defendants were acquitted. The use of force resulted in 65 deaths.

Miami's police chief made a prediction shortly before the law took effect: "Whether it's trick-or-treaters or kids playing in the yard of someone who doesn't want them there or some drunk guy stumbling into the wrong house,'' Chief John Timoney told the New York Times, "you're encouraging people to possibly use deadly physical force where it shouldn't be used.'' “They’re basically giving citizens more rights to use deadly force than we give police officers, and with less review,” said Paul Logli, former president of the National District Attorneys Association.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...cle1128317.ece

[Deus Ex Machina]

Good article on Gawker:

http://gawker.com/5899322/the-dog-whistle-has-sounded-how-the-right-talks-about-thugs-like-trayvon-martin

They make repeated references toObamaandwatermelons. They talk about "strapping young bucks" with t-bone steaks. Then, when black or liberal commentators denounce those statements, conservative pundits label them as the racists. After all, you'd have to be a racist to think there was racist commentary there; the only people who think about racism are racists. You have to be importing your own racial hangups to the exchange: you altered the outcome of the reaction when your gaze introduced a racial force to the social reaction.

[theruiner]

^^
Yeah, this whole "he looks like a thug" thing is the epitome of, if not outright racism, then, at the very least, horrible stereotyping. It's people who are obviously completely out of touch with the young, and don't understand that, you know, it's just a fucking style. A lot of young people wear baggy pants. A lot of young people act obnoxious (he flipped off the camera in a picture! Oh no, what a thug!) Honestly, he was a teenager. Jesus Christ, are kids not allowed to be kids now? They have to be demonized? Because he was wearing a certain type of jacket or baggy pants or he possibly *GASP* used marijuana (like a lot of people do, across all races, ages and backgrounds) that suddenly he was just a "thug"? You might as well wear a shirt that says "I'm completely out of touch." God, did I hop in a time machine and travel back to 1992? I thought people had figured this out by now.

But this is the state of right-wing racism in America: it exists only on its moment of detection. Until then, it's merely an amorphous cloud of words. The people who are targeted by it are the real racists, because they have the insufferable gall to notice it and then divisively, unrepentantly point it out. They are malcontents operating without the privilege to speak freely.

EXACTLY.

[allegro]

I'm just not buying the hoodie thing. it's like people think it's called a "hoodie" because only people in the "hood" wear them. They sell fucking hoodies at RAVINIA FESTIVAL for $60.00, and millionaires are wearing the fucking things because it suddenly got chilly and it's outdoors and the gift shop sells them. I have about 8 of them because I keep forgetting to bring a sweater. And this is down the street from Billy Fucking Corgan, so trust me this ain't no 'hood. There are about 15 hoodies in my closet right now, and I'm shopping for fucking yachts.

The problem was that it was dark and RAINING and this Zimmerman dude looks out the window, like nosy neighborhood snitch Mrs. Kravitz on Bewitched



and Zimmerman says "hey, what's that kid doing walking around in the rain??? that's very suspicious! I'd better report this! Kids walking around in the rain have no business walking around in the rain, and he's probably a rapist or a murderer or a burglar, or maybe he left his garage door open! (gasp) And I took some criminal law classes! And I dream of being a judge, someday! Once I get my G.E.D. And move out of my dad's basement. I know this Stand Your Ground law allows me to go shoot a 6-year-old aiming an ice cream cone at me, so no worries, there! I'd better go be the arm of the law, I have a gun, I'm like fucking Gunsmoke, man!"

Meanwhile, this Trayvon kid is on the phone with his girlfriend, freaking out, just trying to get home to give his brother a bag of Skittles. "I think I'm being followed." If some fat ass dude is following you, what are you gonna do?

"Why, howdy! Nice to meet you! I'm so glad you are following me, I was so worried, walking around in the rain, I was hoping for an escort! I'm sure that is why you are following me, kind man with suspicious look on your face. I, too, would be suspicious if i saw a tall negro in the rain, ha ha ha. But, fear not, my fat white friend, for I come to deliver Skittles to my brother! Here, let us shake hands and become friends, like Vulcans! Please allow me to offer you some Skittles. No no, do not fear, I do not reach into my pocket for a weapon, but only do so in peace. For I am like Grasshopper on Kung Fu! When you can take the Skittles from my hand, it is time for me to go!"

Bottom line: If that Trayvon kid had a gun, too, he'd have shot Zimmerman's ass for threatening him by following him, and now we'd be discussing whether or not Martin should be in jail, and Zimmerman would be dead.

Maybe this is what this whole country needs: Everybody has guns, and it's all like the O.K. Fucking Corral.

[50 Volt Phantom]

This will be my last post in this discussion...

Chris, you're kidding yourself if you don't think the end objective of leftist gun control regulations is the total elimination of gun ownership, it is akin to Obamacare being the first step towards the end objective of single payer healthcare, which Obama was open about wanting before he became a Presidential candidate. The fact is that if the current administration could remove every private citizen's guns tomorrow knowing there wouldn't be drastic repercussions I'm sure they would.

My point about protecting my home is in regards to the "awful" stand your ground/castle doctrine laws, if someone threatened me on the street I would approach the situation in a similar way to someone coming into my home. Again, there are consequences for actions.

Littlemonkey, I will not respond to you because there is simply nothing to say, I disagree with your entire outlook, period. I am not going to just declare myself an oppressor because some mindset says I should, your way of thinking as far as I'm concerned keeps racism alive, and on that point, your position on color-blind racism basically sets up a situation where no matter what I think, say, or do to someone like you I am a racist. How can equality be gained when people like yourself simply define ways in which "whites" must be racist now. "Oh hey, lots of people aren't saying racist things anymore, it's probably because they just think them now, bunch of racists!"

Here's where I stand on this issue. Trayvon Martin walked through a neighborhood at night that had suffered some crime issues, Zimmerman spots him and becomes a little overzealous about his neighborhood watch standing and probably experiences a sense of "I've got to check this out and not sit idly by." I believe he chose unwisely to not listen to dispatchers requests to not follow Martin, but I do believe that as he got closer Martin caused an altercation and Zimmerman shot him in self defense or in a panicked heat of the moment mistake. I do not believe that there was one bit of racism in the matter, as Zimmerman clearly wasn't sure if Martin was black until he got closer, and I also believe that the people that claim hoodies don't initiate a negative response of sorts amongst the general populace are fooling themselves. Furthermore, even if this went to trial, Zimmerman is essentially guilty, his life is ruined, the media and almost all of you have already made up your minds, even if a jury found him innocent he would find no real peace at this point. The left took a situation that they felt they could exploit to stir up some racial division and push gun control questions back into the spotlight and along the way convicted Zimmerman for us.

[allegro]

I don't give a FLYING FUCK what anybody's "objective" is, it's not achievable with a Constitution that clearly backs it. Maybe you should go study LAW?

We are always gonna have guns, we are always gonna have abortions, we are always gonna have some form of socialized all kinds of shit (fucking MEDICARE is forced on you, whether you want it or not, and they take the deductible from your monthly social security payment, fuck what your want, and that's happened for a long time, so what's the fucking difference?). Republicans AND Democrats are all full of shit, and the two-party system is a fucking joke. So anybody pointing fingers at either party, or at this alleged "liberal vs. conservative" (note: THEY'RE ALL THE SAME, YOU IDIOTS) just prove what Plato said about Democracy being impossible because people are all too fucking stupid.

By the way: Littlemonkey is quoting textbook history views that anybody learns in any liberal arts college, particularly if you've ever taken classes in Lit Crit and American literature, slave literature, Marxist criticism, or American History, etc. This isn't stuff she's making up in her head or new liberal shit, this is shit that's been around for, like, 50 years and is standard college stuff. Ditto for other college stuff like the Feminist Perspective, Gender Studies, blah blah blah. I'm kinda yawning that we're even questioning this basic stuff, like we're all high school dropouts or something.

But, honestly, in my personal opinion, it's drift in this thread. This thread should really be about law, and the "Stand Your Ground" law in Florida, how it sucks, and how it affects everybody, not just black people. It's a stupid fucking law, way too broad, totally undefined.

[littlemonkey613]

Bro bro bro. Having white privilege and being a racist are not the same thing......

I don't think you are a racist, you just don't acknowledge the privilege that you are granted in this country for being white, which is very problematic and makes my life harder because most white Americans share your views. To put it in more perspective, most minorities DONT share your views. So what does that tell you?

I mean are you even willing to admit that you experience privilege because you are a man? That's a start. This is not about guilt or blame, this is simply about acknowledging the nature of privilege and oppression so that we can fix what is obviously wrong.

Honestly think about it this way. If you admit white people are the current majority, you've already admitted that you experience white privilege. You see the term majority has never referred to the amount of people in a group. It refers to their power over others in a society conscious or not. Which is why women are the "minority" even though there's more of us. Their status as a minority is the marker for their unequal systematic treatment.

Still no?

[allegro]

Women are the "minority" in business. That's all. Otherwise, we're only the minority because we allow ourselves to be the minority. But, that's another thread.

Can we at least attempt to stick to the FACTS in this case? The facts currently aren't totally known, but what we DO know are the details of this "Stand Your Ground" law in Florida. Can we maybe discuss that? Its holes? Its problems? The way the cops have to uphold it because their hands are tied their backs until somebody figures out wtf the law means? I mean, you know, logical arguments, vs. emotional arguments? Otherwise, this is just typical jaw-jacking bbs ca-ca. NO bbs EVER changed anybody's mind, as far as anybody knows. Why try?

I initially felt that this was an obvious case of racial discrimination, but now that I know that the acting police chief is black, that this Stand Your Ground law affects everyone, and that cops and the judicial system are stuck trying to deal with this law, I believe it's much more complicated than race (or a hoodie): this law gives people unlimited ability to shoot whomever they please, fabricate a motive and "evidence" of said motive, and get away with it. You should ALL be worried: it could affect you, too.

[Iran_Ed]

I was talking to my mother last week, and all of a sudden she blurts out don't ever wear a hoodie. She said this in her most serious tone. I understand where she's coming from, but as a young black male I find it equal parts hilarious and sickening that I have to be aware of what I'm wearing and the message it could falsely portray about me. Its like when the say rape victims were asking for it. A woman in a short skirt is parading her body as a calling card. A black man in a hoodie is up to no good. I shouldn't have to worry that the clothes on my back could get me shot, but I do.

[allegro]

^^ If I could hit the "like" button 100 times for this, I would.

But, calmly remind your mother that only the MEDIA has blamed this on a hoodie. The media is really good at filling our heads with bullshit, these days.

I recommend that people read Mary Mitchell's column, for some other perspective: http://www.suntimes.com/news/mitchel...ack-obama.html

[Space Suicide]

Photos Debate

[Hazekiah]

About a hundred different comments in this thread keep reminding me that I keep forgetting to post this here.

[allegro]

^^ Wow, that's really good, thanks.

[allegro]

So, no grand jury; the special prosecutor is going to investigate, herself. Which I understand is pretty normal for her (grand jury not required in FL because this isn't a 1st degree murder case). Not necessarily bad news.

[sweeterthan]

The circus continues. Zimmerman's lawyers say that they've lost touch with him and that they can no longer represent him. They also said they've never met him face to face and that Zimmerman's been in contact with Sean Hannity.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/04/10/...hdraw-counsel/

[Harry Seaward]

So when can we start the protests about this?

[Deus Ex Machina]

So when can we start the protests about this?

You're free to protest whatever you'd like, but I don't think there's much of a connection. Did the police talk to the aggressors and then let them go? Did they fail to investigate the event or attempt to make an arrest?

[Fixer808]

So when can we start the protests about this?

Any time you want, it's abhorrent, but it has absolutely no bearing on this case.