Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

[DVYDRNS]

Ugh. this whole thread annoys the hell out of me.

[allegro]

The shelves have been completely empty and everything deeply backordered.

Yea, but every time there's severe weather or a power outage, everybody runs out and buys 500 rolls of toilet paper.

http://www.federalnewsradio.com/20/3...e-Coming-Storm

[Leviathant]

The incredible effect that the NRA has had on the dialog about firearms in this country reminds me a bit of the RIAA and professional musicians. MP3s are evil! Only CDs are real music! Even after the In Rainbows moment, Johnny Greenwood was parroting this absurd idea that you can't download music that has the same quality as what's on a CD. Downloading music is theft! They're saying these things because there's a group of companies working together to make more money and are upset that their business model was being disrupted. But as more musicians stepped outside of the bubble, it became more readily apparent that the driving force behind this reality distortion field was money. Executives using musicians as pawns for bigger personal paydays at the expense of consumers and the musicians being pimped out.

Similarly, you get a mass shooting at an elementary school, and the reaction from the NRA is We need [to sell] more guns - and the useful idiots fall in line. The fact that there's even a discussion about video games after this shooting is offensive. The fact that Mitch McConnel writes emails saying "You and I are literally surrounded. The gun-grabbers in the Senate are about to launch an all-out-assault on the Second Amendment. On your rights. On your freedom. [T]hey're coming for your guns" sending more idiotic consumers to blow more money on guns and ammo and build up this imaginary notion that the gub'mint is going to take yer guns is an obscenity.

That's what I see when I read posts on Facebook about how "Obama's taking our guns!" - I don't see a threat to constitutional rights - I see fools happily being bilked out of their money.

[DigitalChaos]

Yea, but every time there's severe weather or a power outage, everybody runs out and buys 500 rolls of toilet paper.

http://www.federalnewsradio.com/20/3...e-Coming-Storm

Well, those are consumables. You can't wipe your ass with an AR-15 and flush it down the toilet :P Guns last through generations. Plus, we don't have a government trying to find a way to reduce the amount of toilet paper anyone owns. More toilet paper in people's hands isn't connected to a perceived problem.

@Leviathant - NRA is absolutely all about selling guns, not protection of constitutional rights. One of the many reasons I will never support them. I found their blaming of video games ridiculous considering how they have their own gun advertising campaigns built into several games. No doubt that there are many... impressionable people running out in fear to grab guns without thinking it through. I'd think these are the types of people that probably SHOULDN'T be owning guns.

[jessamineny]

Well, those are consumables. You can't wipe your ass with an AR-15 and flush it down the toilet :P Guns last through generations. Plus, we don't have a government trying to find a way to reduce the amount of toilet paper anyone owns. More toilet paper in people's hands isn't connected to a perceived problem.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove or disprove.

It doesn't matter if it's a gun or toilet paper or Furbies at Christmas. She was pointing out the mindset at work... that when faced with an unanticipated shortage of something that they consider to be a basic necessity, people act based on irrational fears.

[DigitalChaos]

Also, you can't blame it all on the NRA & right-wing pundit hype. An assault weapon ban is on the table. Those typically come with a grandfather clause. Anyone who thinks they may ever want to own a weapon targeted by that legislation is going to go buy one based on that alone.

[DigitalChaos]

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove or disprove.

It doesn't matter if it's a gun or toilet paper or Furbies at Christmas. She was pointing out the mindset at work... that when faced with an unanticipated shortage of something that they consider to be a basic necessity, people act based on irrational fears.

I agree but I wasn't justifying/arguing the fear: "I'd be interested in the numbers of gun sales triggered by gun control compared to the number of gun sales that are stopped by the same gun control."


And this is anecdotal but... Both gun shops I've visited in the last 2 months have said that the spike in buying is MUCH more than any of the other instances where the right-wingers try to stir crap up. They said "it's different because this time Obama is actually talking about it." So again, you really can't blame all of the sales on the NRA, Limbaugh, Fox News, etc.

[jessamineny]

Allegro pointed out that people are Pavlovian and dumb. And you argued with her about toilet paper. That was my point. But whatever.

[allegro]

Yup, people are stupid. Maybe a better example than toilet paper?

Twinkies.



We had a Federal assault weapons ban already and there wasn't all this crazed purchasing. There's a LOT of profit that's going to be lost, though. The ones helping to drive the purchasing fervor are the gun shops and gun manufacturers.

http://barrington.suntimes.com/17593...s-for-now.html

[mfte]

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the gun control "think of the children" tears on day one of the Sandy shooting. Those people didn't shed any tears for all the children that were murdered with Obama's drones by using their tax money. We could fix most of our monetary problems if we stopped most of the bullshit military operations outside our borders. But you know... the whole fear thing... seems to really control this country. Gotta have the government constantly protecting you!

I'm also pissed that the US government intentionally passed 2000 guns into the hands of criminals in Mexico.

[Deepvoid]

US Citizens are arming themselves through their teeth and there's zero justification to do that.

Yes, you can defend yourself is someone tries to steal your TV in the middle of the night. I'm really curious how damaged you will be after killing someone even if it was to protect your family and TV.
Most cops that kill bad guys need therapy afterwards. Unless you are in the army, where dare I say, you are somewhat brainwashed into killing people, I'm sure it has disastrous psychological effects on a normal human being.

[Deepvoid]

I'm questioning the "accidental discharge" of guns at these shows. While taking a shotgun out of a case? Dubious.

Deepvoid: Understand that there will ALWAYS be guns in the U.S. It's guaranteed in the Constitution. That will NEVER change.

The U.S. also has a LOT of REALLY stupid people. It's hard to do a "stupid" test to obtain a gun permit. Since we can't do a "stupid" test before people breed, it's an endless problem. Guns sometimes assist in natural selection.

Of course there will always be guns. There are guns in Canada as well. It just seems like we don't know about it. It's not something that people brag or tell others. For exemple, I have a wealthy uncle and I'm sure he has a gun in his house. He never told us or showed it to us. The mentality in the US is totally different.

[Elke]

Yea, except for the part where not a single thing you listed actually increases or maintains freedom.

No. Neither do guns. I was going to post something about East-Congo, but then I realized I wouldn't be entertaining myself and your level of idiocy/deliberate use of incredible logical fallacies really doesn't merit me delving into the dazzlingly sleazy depths of the African gun problem.

Suffice to say: your idea that the world is somehow similar to 300 years ago, and any future hypothetical tyranny will be overhrown by 300 year old methods is not only incorrect, it shows a degree of delusion that is quite staggering.

[Leviathant]

...then I realized I wouldn't be entertaining myself and your level of idiocy...

Said it before, sayin' it again: Attack the argument, not the person making the argument. Keep it civil.

[Deepvoid]

Gunman reported at Lone Star College Houston,Texas

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/22...ege/?hpt=hp_t3

No further comments except this is getting old ...

**edit**

3 injured to date.

[allegro]

Gunman reported at Lone Star College Houston,Texas

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/22...ege/?hpt=hp_t3

No further comments except this is getting old ...

**edit**

3 injured to date.

We have college professor friends. One is the professor who was shot at Northern Illinois University. It's so surreal hearing him tell the story. http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...714069,00.html

No matter what you think about gun control, it nearly always changes when you actually get shot.

[DigitalChaos]

If I wasn't arguing, this thread would just be a circle-jerk. There is certainly no way it would ever hit 13 pages by now!

But seriously, can we turn this into the "Gun news, law, and shooting of children" thread or something? The Random General Headlines thread keeps getting filled with gun crap (largely from Deepvoid suddenly caring about gun news that has existed long before Sandy)

[Presideo]

It's likely that none of those guns are actually legal or were obtained through legal channels.

You keep mentioning illegal gun ownership, but fail to mention how most criminals acquire a gun in the first place. You seem to imply that these guns are acquired through theft, and since theft is already illegal there is no easy way to circumvent these criminals from getting their hands on the guns. However, theft only accounts for a small amount of illegal gun ownership. The majority of criminals acquire guns through legal avenues: (1) Private, unlicensed sellers using a loophole during gun shows that allows them to sell guns without using a background check (2) Federally licensed dealers selling guns illegally to criminals, then reporting the guns stolen (3) Straw purchasing: those prohibited from owning guns use friends to legally purchase guns on their behalf. These cases involve using loopholes that make it easy for criminals to acquire guns without theft or some complex black market - loopholes that can be tightened using legislation, especially the first two examples.

[allegro]

You keep mentioning illegal gun ownership, but fail to mention how most criminals acquire a gun in the first place. You seem to imply that these guns are acquired through theft, and since theft is already illegal there is no easy way to circumvent these criminals from getting their hands on the guns. However, theft only accounts for a small amount of illegal gun ownership. The majority of criminals acquire guns through legal avenues: (1) Private, unlicensed sellers using a loophole during gun shows that allows them to sell guns without using a background check (2) Federally licensed dealers selling guns illegally to criminals, then reporting the guns stolen (3) Straw purchasing: those prohibited from owning guns use friends to legally purchase guns on their behalf. These cases involve using loopholes that make it easy for criminals to acquire guns without theft or some complex black market - loopholes that can be tightened using legislation, especially the first two examples.

I didn't imply any such thing because I know that's not true, and I didn't fail to mention how criminals get guns; I posted a link about it. See the NPR article I linked in Post #371 in this thread. Here, I'll post the whole article:

Hot Guns; How Criminals Get Guns, by Dan Noyes, Center for Investigative Reporting

Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.

In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.

According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."

The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.

Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.

While many guns are taken off the street when people are arrested and any firearms in their possession are confiscated, a new study shows how easily arrestees believe they could illegally acquire another firearm. Supported by the National Institute of Justice and based on interviews with those recently arrested, the study acknowledges gun theft is common, with 13 percent of all arrestees interviewed admitting that they had stolen a gun. However a key finding is that "the illegal market is the most likely source" for these people to obtain a gun. "In fact, more than half the arrestees say it is easy to obtain guns illegally," the report states. Responding to a question of how they obtained their most recent handgun, the arrestees answered as follows: 56% said they paid cash; 15% said it was a gift; 10% said they borrowed it; 8% said they traded for it; while 5% only said that they stole it.

ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking. Cracking down on these dealers continues to be a priority for the ATF. What's needed, according to Wachtel, is better monitoring of the activities of legally licensed gun dealers. This means examining FFL paperwork to see where their guns are coming from, and making sure that those guns are being sold legally. But he says, "Let's be honest. If someone wants a gun, it's obvious the person will not have difficulty buying a gun, either legally or through the extensive United States black market."

[Presideo]

I didn't imply any such thing because I know that's not true, and I didn't fail to mention it; I posted a link about it. See the NPR article I linked in Post #371 in this thread.

So just to clarify...you also think there are easy, fairly simple ways to prevent criminals from acquiring guns? Sorry, but you keep bringing up Chicago gun violence as if it's an unsolvable sociological issue; I assumed you were applying that notion to gun control in general. Also, check out your sentence I quoted - it seems you contradicted yourself: "It's likely that none of those guns are actually legal or were obtained through legal channels." The gun show loophole is a legal channel of acquiring guns, thanks to a section of the Brady Bill.

Also, general thought: stances in this thread might be clearer if there wasn't floods of posts that feel like arguing for arguments sake and showing off knowledge at the expense of simplicity and cohesion.

[DigitalChaos]

You keep mentioning illegal gun ownership, but fail to mention how most criminals acquire a gun in the first place. You seem to imply that these guns are acquired through theft, and since theft is already illegal there is no easy way to circumvent these criminals from getting their hands on the guns. However, theft only accounts for a small amount of illegal gun ownership. The majority of criminals acquire guns through legal avenues: (1) Private, unlicensed sellers using a loophole during gun shows that allows them to sell guns without using a background check

that's illegal

(2) Federally licensed dealers selling guns illegally to criminals, then reporting the guns stolen

illegal again

(3) Straw purchasing: those prohibited from owning guns use friends to legally purchase guns on their behalf. These cases involve using loopholes that make it easy for criminals to acquire guns without theft or some complex black market - loopholes that can be tightened using legislation, especially the first two examples.

yup, illegal.

[DigitalChaos]

So just to clarify...you also think there are easy, fairly simple ways to prevent criminals from acquiring guns? Sorry, but you keep bringing up Chicago gun violence as if it's an unsolvable sociological issue; I assumed you were applying that notion to gun control in general. Also, check out your sentence I quoted - it seems you contradicted yourself: "It's likely that none of those guns are actually legal or were obtained through legal channels." The gun show loophole is a legal channel of acquiring guns, thanks to a section of the Brady Bill.

Also, general thought: stances in this thread might be clearer if there wasn't floods of posts that feel like arguing for arguments sake and showing off knowledge at the expense of simplicity and cohesion.

I previously mentioned an NPR segment on guns in Oakland. They mentioned (anecdotally) that many will get guns by paying a friend/relative to (legally) get one for them (illegally). They then file off the serial number (illegally) so it can't be tracked back. This is what you are referring to, but it is still illegal. You are implying that removing the legal purchase for the friend/relative will fix the issue. Allegro mentions Chicago because they already have what you are suggesting. Even with the toughest gun control, Chicago still has some of the worst crime in the country. Chicago criminals are still getting their guns to commit their crimes. The answer seems to be adding focus on enforcing existing laws that are being broken.

[Presideo]

I said legal avenues, DigitalChaos. A person selling a gun at a gun show without a background check is legal. Licensed dealers claiming their guns were stolen without any real repercussion or a thorough investigation is tolerated. Yes, a criminal acquiring a gun they shouldn't be able to acquire is illegal, but there's major loopholes using legal avenues for them to illegally acquire them.

The answer seems to be adding focus on enforcing existing laws that are being broken.

Enforcing AND strengthening existing law.

[Presideo]

Edit: Double post.

[allegro]

So just to clarify...you also think there are easy, fairly simple ways to prevent criminals from acquiring guns?

Well, yes, I think we have to at least TRY to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals, we have to do whatever is necessary. I'm all for searches and seizures, SWAT teams, whatever the fuck it takes. This requires not only new laws but also help from the Feds and also a lot more law enforcement. A lot of our problems in Chicago is that there are an estimated 70,000 gang members in Chicago and not nearly enough law enforcement to stop the crime. We're overwhelmed. Guns laws won't do much if we don't have people to help us enforce the laws. We really do need help from the Feds in doing something to stop this madness up here. Chicago is broke, already, we don't have the budget to hire more police. I'm not a libertarian. I don't give a fuck if people lose rights to get rid of this shit. We need ATF SWAT teams, RICO teams, whatever.

"It's likely that none of those guns are actually legal or were obtained through legal channels." The gun show loophole is a legal channel of acquiring guns, thanks to a section of the Brady Bill.

The data I've read (this shit is in the newspapers or on NPR nearly every day, here) doesn't indicate that gang members get the guns through gun shows, and I'm not aware of it being a problem in our area relating to criminals, so that's why I didn't mention it or refer to it. Yes, all loopholes should be closed. The states should cooperate with Feds. The Feds need to control all of this. This is like prohibition times 500. It's out of control. Since we're too fucking stupid to legalize drugs, we should at least crack down on this gun trafficking shit.

I'm not into states rights when it comes to this shit. Fuck that.

Oh, btw, people keep mentioning in various online and TV opinions that guns are banned in Chicago. Not true. Past tense. Not only was that ban reversed due to the SCOTUS opinion, but a recent opinion issued by the appellate court reversed the concealed carry ban:
http://www.inquisitr.com/442530/illi...an-overturned/

[DigitalChaos]

I said legal avenues, DigitalChaos. A person selling a gun at a gun show without a background check is legal. Licensed dealers claiming their guns were stolen without any real repercussion or a thorough investigation is tolerated. Yes, a criminal acquiring a gun they shouldn't be able to acquire is illegal, but there's major loopholes using legal avenues for them to illegally acquire them.


Enforcing AND strengthening existing law.

That's the problem though. Every time you close one "loophole" it just means people have to go up one level in the chain or simply find an alternative. I mentioned this before, but I can LEGALLY get my hands on an AR-15 in California even though we have the assault weapon ban that blocks the AR-15. I can do it by assembling and doing some light metal fabrication (think $50 drillpress). This is because guns are very low tech. One of the most popular handguns today was created over 100 years ago. It doesn't take much to assemble one on your own. Sure, you could make it illegal to do but that wouldn't make it hard to do. This is just one example to demonstrate how hard it is to chase the issue you are describing. Hell, the assault weapon legislation actually MAKES loopholes. California has an entire industry that popped up because of it.


Do you have a fix to the situation where someone legally buys a gun and then illegally transfers it? A fix other than not letting that person legally buy the gun?


edit: I should mention that there are a LOT of loopholes (and mostly just poorly executed laws) that should and can be closed but I don't see one for the illegal transfer scenario.

[allegro]

The gun show loophole is a legal channel of acquiring guns, thanks to a section of the Brady Bill.

You know, I did some research on this "gun show" thing and according to this, Illinois closed the gun show loophole.

See this: http://www3.illinois.gov/PressReleas...83&SubjectID=1

[DigitalChaos]

Nice. I hadn't actually researched that. It was my understanding that there is NO loophole associated with gun shows, despite the media rhetoric. All laws that apply to gun sales outside of a gun show also apply inside the gun show.

[allegro]

From the above-linked article:

Only six states (California, Colorado, Illinois, New York, Oregon and Rhode Island) require universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows, including sales by unlicensed dealers. Three more states (Connecticut, Maryland and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Eight other states (Hawaii, Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, Nebraska and North Carolina) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the gun show loophole.

In two states, voters themselves closed the loophole when their legislatures refused to do so. On November 7, 2000, the citizens of Colorado overwhelmingly voted 70% – 30% in favor of Amendment 22, closing the gun show loophole in their state. The referendum followed the tragic shooting at Columbine High School on April 20, 1999 (the guns used in the shooting were purchased from private sellers at Denver gun shows). In Oregon, voters also voted overwhelmingly, 62% – 38%, in favor of Measure 5, effectively closing the gun show loophole in their state.

[DigitalChaos]

Why wouldn't they close the "loophole" that exists outside of gunshows as well? Seems silly to limit the scope. There are plenty of ways for private transactions to occur outside of gun shows. We all know how much the internet has enabled people to conduct private transactions.