The Poopy Diaper Vinyl Thread

[Tom]

You guys complaining that vinyl is an out of date format seem to be missing the point that - when it comes to both convenience and sound quality - CDs have been long since been surpassed by files. CDs are the out of date format. You don't need to spend much to build a digital media player that will be easier to use and will sound better than any of your old CD players (I could start a thread about this if anyone's interested). I don't really understand the concerns about files being 'throwaway' - all I really care about is the experience of listening to the music, and files offer the better experience (better than CD anyway). There are plenty of reasons to dislike vinyl - I love it myself, but I can easily understand why someone wouldn't. I keep it around because, with all of its compromises, it still offers something that digital formats don't and never have - to that extent it's not out of date at all. But CDs offer nothing that isn't done better by files, unless you also like having a physical thing to caress. But then surely the best thing to do would be to get the files for listening and get the vinyl for caressing - a vinyl package is a much nicer thing than a CD - CDs don't look good on your wall. CDs are done - they lose on sound and convenience to files, and they lose on physical-thinghood to vinyl. They're in a similar position to cassettes in the 90s.

[Merriweather]

I think the issue is not necessarily that people are dead set on having a CD copy. It’s more that they presumed buying the vinyl was a way to get the digital files. That was certainly my assumption. I was happy to buy the physical thing I would look at a couple times and file away. If I had a turntable I would probably listen to the record once or twice and then just rely on the digital files because that’s more convenient in this day and age.

Forcing a double dip is a backwards move in my opinion.

If you love your vinyl records, fine. I just find the whole trend to be a bit of gate keeping.

[SchwarzerAbt]

Based on the title this should also be the "oh no, I ordered a vinyl on the internet and it came all damaged" thread.

Or am I wrong? These complains cluster every thread at least as much as the no CD complaints IMO.

[SM Rollinger]

Or such and such an album isn't on my steaming service anymore, and then the thread gets derailed into a discussion of weather or not streaming is even worth it for those who want to own their music.

I'm just gonna come out and say what everyone is thinking...

"YOUR FORMAT OF CHOICE SUCKS"

Can we just go back to being civil to each other?

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

Y But CDs offer nothing that isn't done better by files.

Except the lil thing called artwork.....And actually owning the physical product as opposed to having it on a cloud file.....And a factory made CD would be better than burning it to a CDR...Just because you and your vinyl only buddies deem CD "dead" doesn't mean its dead lol. Its dead to you but alive and well to others....Thats the beauty of listening to music....Anybody can listen on any format and everyone has their own choice on how to digest it. If some guy wants to listen to his cassette tapes he bought in 1987 on a worn down 30 year old boombox, then thats his choice. I know numerous people that got into vinyl and then bailed because its 1) too expensive 2) takes up too much space 3) doesn't sound as good as CD/ digital high res files or 4) all of the above....Not sure why it is an issue for anyone. Everyone has their preferred way of listening to music. If its vinyl or CD or cloud files or even a cassette tape. So an artist (especially one who has a hardcore dedicated fan base) should release their 'art" on all formats so the consumer can purchase the product in any way they like and make their own decision on how to listen to it. To limit it to specific formats is laughable. The fact enough people are complaining every time he does a vinyl only release shows there is still a market for CD. I can pretty much guarantee if he released these soundtracks as a limited edition run on CD through the nin site (20,000 or so pressed) it would sell out....within hours...Guaran-fuckin-teed

[Tom]

Except the lil thing called artwork.....And actually owning the physical product as opposed to having it on a cloud file.....And a factory made CD would be better than burning it to a CDR...Just because you and your vinyl only buddies deem CD "dead" doesn't mean its dead lol.

Who said I was vinyl only? I thought it would have been clear from my post that I'm a strong advocate of file-based audio (locally stored files that is, not so much streaming services). Nor did I say that CD was 'dead', I said it was 'done', meaning that its time has passed - sure people still buy CDs (I still get maybe one a year), but it's not the dominant format that it was in the 90s, and for a multitude of good reasons: people who care about convenience and quality are moving on to files/streaming, and people who care about artwork and physical things are moving on (or back) to vinyl.

The sensible thing to do in response to this would be to invest in a decent digital replay rig, and pick up the LP if you want the artwork etc (no one says you have to actually listen to them). But by all means, cling to your CD player if you want, and continue to complain whenever TR and others decline to support the format; I suspect you'll have a lot more complaining to do as time goes on.

[BRoswell]

The fact enough people are complaining every time he does a vinyl only release shows there is still a market for CD.

Except it's the same people ever single time, and apparently there's not enough of you guys to make a difference. If the numbers aren't there, it's not going to happen. That's just basic business sense.

And when you guys whine and get sarcastic about it, that doesn't exactly help your case either. Why should they listen to a bunch of entitled fans who are just going to keep complaining no matter what?

[FULLMETAL]

A "physical component" w/high resolution audio files is my preferred choice in the format wars of 2019.

I will always grab vinyl for the large format artwork, liner notes, & things hidden in the deadwax, but it's a friction medium & I want each listening session to be pristine. I still grab CDs, but mainly opt for the Japanese release as I like their manufacturing & presentation (in addition to bonus tracks).

"Welcome oblivion" remains my benchmark release (exclusive CD of the vinyl included in the package), but I'm sure that cost a pretty penny to manufacture & without a record label - it won't likely happen again.

Fart.

[botley]

Um, audiophilia to one side for a second, there is basically a Watchmen ARG happening with the additional websites, DC comics, podcasts, fan theories, and now this very cool Alternate-Reality text accompanying the physical soundtrack release (but they should just upload the PDF of that essay to Peteypedia now, so we can all see it close up instead of waiting weeks on end to get the vinyl shipped locally).

[piggy]

Isn't there a decent portion of vinyl being manufactured now that has quality control issues, though? I don't pay super close attention, but it seems like I frequently see people on discogs.com and such who are complaining about problematic modern/current pressings. What has happened to the manufacturing process? Wasn't it better back in the day? If I was a vinyl fan, I think that factor (along with cost) would scare me off from investing in it. I promise I'm not interested in joining or exacerbating the pissing match, I just genuinely wondered how bad or widespread this problem is.

[gorast]

Isn't there a decent portion of vinyl being manufactured now that has quality control issues, though? I don't pay super close attention, but it seems like I frequently see people on discogs.com and such who are complaining about problematic modern/current pressings. What has happened to the manufacturing process? Wasn't it better back in the day? If I was a vinyl fan, I think that factor (along with cost) would scare me off from investing in it. I promise I'm not interested in joining or exacerbating the pissing match, I just genuinely wondered how bad or widespread this problem is.

I think - and I'm not certain - the issue on that front is when CDs took over, a lot of vinyl plants shut down or moved on to manufacture other things, so when vinyl had its resurgence, those plants got backlogged because there were so few, and other, shittier plants that either don't have the same quality control or focused on getting stuff out quick sprung up instead. I think it also depends on the artist, label, and how much the interested parties care about the quality of the vinyl. NIN records will generally be made with care at a plant that probably gets backlogged by their volume, while, say, a Carly Rae Jepsen record shit out by her label will get printed in a back alley somewhere and will turn out to be shit, because it'll sell anyway.

[Tom]

Isn't there a decent portion of vinyl being manufactured now that has quality control issues, though? I don't pay super close attention, but it seems like I frequently see people on discogs.com and such who are complaining about problematic modern/current pressings. What has happened to the manufacturing process? Wasn't it better back in the day? If I was a vinyl fan, I think that factor (along with cost) would scare me off from investing in it. I promise I'm not interested in joining or exacerbating the pissing match, I just genuinely wondered how bad or widespread this problem is.

It's certainly a problem I've encountered numerous times. It's a drag, but if you buy from a store with a good returns policy then that takes the sting out a bit. Sometimes a run will have a mix of good and bad pressings, sometimes it seems they're all bad. But so long as you can return or exchange it's okay. It can be awkward if you're buying a limited release direct from the artist or from a small bandcamp label, but even then I've found that most are happy to replace. This is one of a number of drawbacks that's unique to vinyl, but if you enjoy the medium then you just deal with it - the pros still outweigh the cons.

[MrLobster]

*coughs*

Maybe there needs to be a Streaming pile thread.

Lots of assumptions going on in here.

You don't like vinyl only content, well, okay, that's fine and fair enough I guess. But to tell us that a format that is capped at 16-bit is ideal for anything is kinda silly... similar for all compressed audio, including streaming. I'll stick with lossless digital and encoding my vinyl and shellac to lossless digital. Yes, production errors certainly do happen (*stares at Universal*) and there's a lot of music not being properly mastered for the format (do not just stick an MP3 or CD 16-bit source on vinyl and call it good...) but in an overall sense, I feel much better spending my money on vinyl than I ever did on CDs. So much so I'm on a quest to replace all my CDs with vinyl versions... I may not always win
in the battle against better quality audio but I do feel better owning it that way.

I'm in the midst of re-encoding all of my CDs back on my computer (again lossless but also making CD master images, jussssssst in case, 100 down, like another 600 to go), and some of them really... really just "sound like CDs". A small handful of them sound just as good as the vinyl versions I've replaced them with (yay for properly mastering for their respective formats). I've had better luck cleaning vinyl than I have with CDs (CDs can be weird, you clean them and they the drive rejects them... muddy it up with some finger prints again and all is fine in the world).

Personally, I just like to own the music I listen to. Nearly all of my disposable income for 27years has gone into collecting music (but I never, ever see it as in investment... that's just kinda silly when we're talking about items that are mass produced in the millions or even hundreds, my value comes in just appreciating it ... and sharing it via mixtapes and weekly net streaming audio show... but yes, if at some point I did need to sell my collection, it would be nice to get at least the median Discogs price for them).

[Halo Infinity]

What I like about this thread and any other threads like this, is that it still reminds me and reveals to me that there are people out there that still actually care about physical media. I've always been aware that they exist, but they've been obviously impossible for me to find in real life. I also say this as somebody that has had people go as far as to complain to me and even ridicule me for being interested in physical media as early as 2002 and 2003 when it came to buying CDs.

From what it looks like, it seems like most people I've met and known in real life would wonder why ETS still cares or even bothers with physical media, and just point to file-sharing/torrenting, streaming and smartphones, which is even more prevalent with people I know born in the second half of the 1990s and 2000s. (But yeah, with NIN fans, the majority of them are an entirely older demographic. Some of these younger people talk and look at me as if I'm from another planet or dimension when I talk to them about physical media, or even just dial-up Internet, VCRs and landline phones, but that's also clearly nothing new. Every generation goes through that in one way or another on all sorts of topics and facets/aspects of life.)

Even though I also tend to prefer CDs, all of what's been mentioned so far, including the Vinyl Mission Statement seems to be very consistent to Trent Reznor actually calling CDs ugly little pieces of shit back in 1994. Granted, those ugly little pieces of shit helped him succeed, but at the same time can still accept and understand his stance on vinyl as a treasured relic swept away from his past, which also kicked into high gear for me personally when I realized that it's almost near impossible to buy CDs and DVDs in malls of all places now, even before actually hitting 2020, so it always helped me further understand as to why he'd want more of his releases on vinyl.

I guess this kind of makes me thankful for my impulse purchase on a stand-alone vinyl player for cases like these, but at the same time still lean more to CDs. I do also get the point on it being better to have all the releases in all formats though. With all the collectors as seen here, it's just a guarantee for sales.

I've always liked being able to play CDs on all sorts of computers, stereos and even video game consoles though, while also being able to rip them on all sorts of computers, but I guess I'm also biased since that's all I grew up with aside from cassettes.

At this point, I'm just thankful that any physical media is released at all.

[Jon]

I'm in the midst of re-encoding all of my CDs back on my computer (again lossless but also making CD master images, jussssssst in case, 100 down, like another 600 to go), and some of them really... really just "sound like CDs". A small handful of them sound just as good as the vinyl versions I've replaced them with (yay for properly mastering for their respective formats). I've had better luck cleaning vinyl than I have with CDs (CDs can be weird, you clean them and they the drive rejects them... muddy it up with some finger prints again and all is fine in the world).

I'd like to think I helped influence you to make back up images (per discussion in another thread), even though I know it's inevitable when you're trying to "one and done" archiving physical media.

With regards to CD's "sounding like CD's", this is a chronic problem with live releases, as well as jazz and orchestral/score work. For me, this covers roughly 65% of my optical collection these days (~2100). More and more, it seems pointless to rip certain releases and instead wait on a vinyl/digital upgrade.

Also, I can pull out a record that's 60 years old, give it a little shine, and I'm good to go. It is understandable that some people will never get used to clicks and pops, but I prefer that to literally smearing a layer of toothpaste on a disc and hoping I can listen to/extract at least one track.

[d1stinct]

"The Poopy Diaper Vinyl Thread", I'm confused, is someone butt hurt?!?! /s

It does kinda suck that this was only released on vinyl, but... whatever.

I broke down and bought an Audio Technica player about a year ago, mainly because I like the idea of it forcing you to have to sit down and listen to the music, as opposed to it just being something in the background. Sure you can plug some speakers up to it, but eventually I want my younger daughters to have to appreciate music by spending time with it, and this is one way I'll show them how that's accomplished.

[Max]

I use it all. I have a vinyl player, I buy CD's that I burn and add to a Hi-Res audio player, FLAC, streaming... ultimately the FLAC is the truest (read - least added noise) sound but all of them are great and no one is wrong.

The reason I buy ANYTHING anymore outside of my good-enough for 90% of my listening streaming subscription, is I want to support the artists I love. That's it. I sometimes buy vinyl when I know i will still stream it 90% of the time when I am living my life, because I want Trent Reznor or Saul Williams or Mogwai or Moor Mother or whoever to have my money. (Okay, and I LOVE the big art).

Support NIN and the artists you care about. Especially the lesser-known ones. Trent is rich already, compared to you and I, but maybe he makes different choices if NIN makes him no money at some point. Dollars are votes until we dismantle capitalism and eat the rich, so do what you can to vote for the art you love.

Listen however you want. Understand if you have a favorite medium, not every artist is going to hit them all.

It's okay. NO one is wrong here. It's okay to want CDs, it's okay to love vinyl. It's okay to wish that FLAC was the streaming standard and that artists did much more interesting digital and analogue art to go with it. Physical component anyone? I loved those.

It's all great to me. That's my happy thought for the day.

[neorev]

I still don't quite understand the whole idea of vinyl forcing you to listen and appreciate music. I guess because I've done that and still do that easily without the need of vinyl. I can put on an album on CD or in lossless digital and completely shut out the world. Even better, I don't need to have my listening experience ruined and interrupted by having to keep switching sides and records altogether. A CD and/or lossless digital file allows me to have nonstop playback with no interruptions in high quality. Lossless hi-res is even better because now it's like having the source audio straight from the studio being given to you. CD only gets knocked down when it comes to a double album and you have to switch CDs. I avoid all of that getting up to switch discs nonsense with digital. Personally, I find the whole "vinyl makes you appreciate the music and actually listen to it" complete bullshit because I have never needed it to force me to listen to an album in full and appreciate it. I've been loving and experiencing and appreciating music just fine without it. If you can't take a moment from looking at your phone or doing some other mundane task like posting on Facebook and just sit back and listen to an album, well, that's on you and your self control, not the format. Without vinyl, there's no surface noise or crackles or pops and other crap not on the original source audio and, even better, none of that annoying switching records crap that completely takes me out of the listening experience. With lossless/hi-res digital, I put on an album and let myself be taken away.

[Toadflax]

I still don't quite understand the whole idea of vinyl forcing you to listen and appreciate music. I guess because I've done that and still do that easily without the need of vinyl. I can put on an album on CD or in lossless digital and completely shut out the world. Even better, I don't need to have my listening experience ruined and interrupted by having to keep switching sides and records altogether. A CD and/or lossless digital file allows me to have nonstop playback with no interruptions in high quality. Lossless hi-res is even better because now it's like having the source audio straight from the studio being given to you. CD only gets knocked down when it comes to a double album and you have to switch CDs. I avoid all of that getting up to switch discs nonsense with digital. Personally, I find the whole "vinyl makes you appreciate the music and actually listen to it" complete bullshit because I have never needed it to force me to listen to an album in full and appreciate it. I've been loving and experiencing and appreciating music just fine without it. If you can't take a moment from looking at your phone or doing some other mundane task like posting on Facebook and just sit back and listen to an album, well, that's on you and your self control, not the format. Without vinyl, there's no surface noise or crackles or pops and other crap not on the original source audio and, even better, none of that annoying switching records crap that completely takes me out of the listening experience. With lossless/hi-res digital, I put on an album and let myself be taken away.

Fair enough statements all around, but be careful with the mindset of, "this isn't my experience, therefore it must not be anybody's experience."

[neorev]

Fair enough statements all around, but be careful with the mindset of, "this isn't my experience, therefore it must not be anybody's experience."

I'm not saying you can't have a listening experience with vinyl as you can have an experience with any format. What I am saying is that vinyl doesn't make it any more special than someone else's experience without vinyl. I can still have a personal emotional experience with an album without a record being in my hand. Some people take vinyl too far and put this mindset in people that since they listen to vinyl, they are better than you and they are the ones that actually care about the music. This is sadly how Trent's vinyl manifesto came off as. It felt a bit elitist and a tad hypocritical for a guy who went to work at Apple of all places, not known for audio quality. It came off as Trent calling a large proportion of his fans not really true fans who actually listen to his music because they do not listen to it on vinyl.

I say just let people listen to the music the way they like to listen to it and no one is better than anyone else because of the format they choose.

P.S. Personally, The Fragile CD listening experience was a much better experience as the album flowed continuously and songs blended into each other whereas the vinyl edition has way too many start/stops being 3 records with 6 sides. I love the Definitive Edition, but miss the mixing of the CD.

[Toadflax]

I'm not saying you can't have a listening experience with vinyl as you can have an experience with any format. What I meant was that vinyl doesn't make it any more special than someone else's experience without vinyl. It creates this mindset in people that since I listen to vinyl, I'm better than you and I actually care about the music, which is sadly how Trent's statements come off as. Elitism nonsense. Let's just listen to the music the way we like to listen to it and no one is better than anyone else.

Yeah, the elitist angle is ridiculous. I was more commenting on what you said about vinyl forcing you to engage more with the music being bullshit because it doesn't work that way for you. I agree that it's people's own self-control issues which determines whether or not they focus on the music they put on, but that doesn't change the fact that some people with those issues prefer vinyl for the hands-on aspect. Just because you find it easy to focus on music doesn't mean everyone else does.

For me, if I listen to music digitally, I may have it on in the background, I may be partially engaged with it, or I may listen to it totally focused. When I put on a vinyl, though, just the experience of picking it up, looking at the artwork, and taking out the record puts my brain in more of a state of "we are going to listen to this album now" than if I pull something up on Spotify and hit play. Again, it doesn't make one format better than the other, but it's why some people prefer that extra bit of engagement.

And yeah, I also find it cumbersome when it's a 3LP or more album. I love throwing on a Bowie record, partially because they're 1LP, but also because some albums (Low, Let's Dance, Tonight) were clearly intended for each side to have its own identity, but if I want to listen to a 3LP score or something, yeah, I'll probably just stream it instead.

Simply put, I totally agree that everyone should be free to listen to music however they hell they want without anyone telling them it's the wrong way. But this thread has also been a lot of "I don't think vinyl is better, therefore Trent should be putting out CDs," which is when it starts to get silly (I'm not saying you were saying that).

[cdm]

Yeah, the elitist angle is ridiculous.

Am I missing something? Are you guys referring to the "mission statement" at the top of the NIN store music page? Because that...does not read elitist to me.

[Toadflax]

Am I missing something? Are you guys referring to the "mission statement" at the top of the NIN store music page? Because that...does not read elitist to me.

I wasn't referring to that specifically. I was just referring to anyone claiming that the way that they choose to experience a thing is somehow better than the way another person chooses to experience a thing. Just like with plenty of foodies, wine/whiskey/cocktail enthusiasts, PC gamers, tech junkies, etc., some vinyl people can definitely be elitist about their shit.

I wouldn't call Trent elitist necessarily, but he's definitely been condescending toward CD fans as of late, i.e. "For those who prefer to consume media via small plastic discs, the Add Violence CD is in stores today."

[cdm]

Something sometimes lost in this discussion: TR grew up listening to vinyl. Vinyl is nostalgic to him the way cds are to a lot of us. And when it begins to make less and less fiscal sense to manufacture a cd...it’s probably an easy decision to make.

[BRoswell]

And when it begins to make less and less fiscal sense to manufacture a cd...it’s probably an easy decision to make.

Yep. Also something to remember: Trent & Atticus are the artists here, and like most artists, I assume they want their art presented in a way that makes sense to them, even if it's not what everyone wants. I think they've moved past feeling like they have to meet everyone's expectations and are just doing what feels right for them, and it's hard for me to argue that they shouldn't do that.

[MrLobster]

he's definitely been condescending toward CD fans as of late, i.e. "For those who prefer to consume media via small plastic discs, the Add Violence CD is in stores today."

I don't read it that way; he was just stating that for those that prefer that format, it was available.

If it read "For those who prefer to consume media via 12" vinylite disc, the Add Violence vinyl is in store today.", it'd be the same.

[neorev]

I don't read it that way; he was just stating that for those that prefer that format, it was available.

If it read "For those who prefer to consume media via 12" vinylite disc, the Add Violence vinyl is in store today.", it'd be the same.

Maybe if he said, "For those who prefer to consume media via oversized resin discs," then maybe you got a point, but he was clearly talking shit on the CD format.

It's super cheap to press CDs, so I do not see the big deal in an artist doing a limited edition CD for their fans. Most artists still release a CD edition, so clearly there's still some money in CDs.

Also, if we want to use the artist want their art digested in a specific way, why did they decide to give The Fragile Deviations digital PDF way more artwork than the physical vinyl? If there was a release that needed some artwork, especially being pure instrumental, that was the one.

[jmtd]

Isn't there a decent portion of vinyl being manufactured now that has quality control issues, though? I don't pay super close attention, but it seems like I frequently see people on discogs.com and such who are complaining about problematic modern/current pressings. What has happened to the manufacturing process? Wasn't it better back in the day? If I was a vinyl fan, I think that factor (along with cost) would scare me off from investing in it. I promise I'm not interested in joining or exacerbating the pissing match, I just genuinely wondered how bad or widespread this problem is.

Yes. It's a race to the bottom to get the stuff pressed and shipped to meet market demand. And a significant proportion of the buyers either never actually play the vinyl (just use the download code) or don't notice or care about imperfections in the pressing (all those Crosley owners for example). The (awesome) NIN fanbase is an exception. And look what happens whenever TR releases something, we get pages and pages of forum posts about people returning faulty pressings.

But to tell us that a format that is capped at 16-bit is ideal for anything is kinda silly

Have you ever performed a double-blind listening test of 16 versus 24 (or higher) to categorically establish that you can actually tell the difference?

If not, the squishyball tool is one thing you can use to help run the test.

[MrLobster]

Have you ever performed a double-blind listening test of 16 versus 24 (or higher) to categorically establish that you can actually tell the difference?

That actually doesn't matter to the point I was making. I was talking about the inherent technical limitations of the format... but to answer the question; no. I haven't compared 24-bit WAV to 16-bit CD lossless for the same tracks (although I did just compare the 24-bit WAV, 4608kbps, of Ruiner to the High Resolution Stereo version from the Super Deluxe edition of The Downward Spiral, 1013kbps, at the same playback volume annnnnnd.... the WAV sounds a tiny bit brighter to my ears). As I also mentioned that same post, only a few CDs really sound like CDs (which is to say, sounds limited in a weird way) to me, most sound just fine (if but on the LOUD side sometimes).

[cdm]

Maybe if he said, "For those who prefer to consume media via oversized resin discs," then maybe you got a point, but he was clearly talking shit on the CD format.

It's super cheap to press CDs, so I do not see the big deal in an artist doing a limited edition CD for their fans. Most artists still release a CD edition, so clearly there's still some money in CDs.

For one, why take a comment so personally? Who cares if he makes a snide comment regarding a specific format? He's not shitting on you or your collection. He has an opinion based on a whole host of factors, decades of experience, and input from his management, his financial advisors, a label, etc. In the case of Watchmen, there is an additional layer with HBO management. In an increasingly difficult retail marketplace pressing the cd apparently isn't worth the effort / cost.