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theruiner
03-30-2012, 01:38 AM
Well, it seems like the discussion about the Trayvon Martin case is getting pretty big, so I figured a new thread for it might be warranted.

Actually, there is a bit of breaking news on the case. A new witness has come forward and spoken to CNN about what they saw that night. (http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/justice/florida-teen-shooting/?hpt=hp_t2)

While he or she didn't see enough to know for sure exactly what happened, as CNN pointed out in the article, his/her account of the event differs from Zimmerman's in what I would say is a pretty huge way: Zimmerman says that the fight took place on the concrete, thus, he says, Martin was bashing his head into said concrete. But the witness says the fight happened on the grass, not the concrete. Which is huge.

sweeterthan
03-30-2012, 11:07 AM
We'll never know the other side of the story because Trayvon is dead. This big man with a gun has a daddy who's quite powerful and has been able to get out of any trouble he's gotten into, including stalking and shooting a unarmed teen. This case has been a sad reminder that race is still an issue in 2012 and being a black man automatically makes you suspicious. Anyone denying that race wasn't a factor in this case or thinks that this is a right/left issue is delusional. Zimmerman is on tape saying "fucking coons", an undeniable racial slur. Then minutes later this kid is dead. Trayvon wasn't doing anything but minding his own business and had every right to be where he was. If the races were reversed, we'd never even hear about this case. The shooter would be in jail awaiting trial.

Deus Ex Machina
03-30-2012, 11:11 AM
This evidence about the fight that may have taken place worries me, because I think it obscures the issue.

See, while I suppose it's possible that Trayvon immediately flew into a suburbanite-hating rage when he spotted Zimmerman outside his car, I think it's pretty far fetched to imply that Trayvon would have started or instigated any kind of altercation. The kid was carrying sweet tea and skittles. He just wanted to go home. That 911 call from Zimmerman implies pretty strongly that Zimmerman intended to detain this person he spotted.

So perhaps eyewitness testimony will reveal that Zimmerman was getting pummeled, but that won't change the fact that Trayvon was forced into a fistfight by a loon who had no right to detain anyone. Trayvon was an innocent man trying to get home and would have had every right to defend his right to do so with violence. Really, that's not a terribly unlikely chain of events: Z stops T -> T has none of it -> Z doubles down and tries to detain T with force > T, being 6'3" and a teenager, eventually gains the upper hand in the fight for his freedom -> Z has hurt feelings -> Z shoots T, killing him.

So all this talk about whether or not Zimmerman had the right to or felt he needed to defend himself with violence frustrates me. If you believe in the right to defend yourself . . . how could you fail to recognize that is EXACTLY what Trayvon would have been doing? And that's what, for me, makes this about race: the underlying assumption that Trayvon had some kind of duty to passively submit to whatever Zimmerman wanted him to do.

Think of it this way: What if Trayvon had demanded an explanation for Zimmerman's presence and tried to detain him? 'Who are you and what are you doing in this neighborhood? I walk through here all the time and you make me nervous . . . lie down on the ground with your hands behind your head.' Would Zimmerman have been under any obligation to comply? No. The reverse is true.

poinoup
03-30-2012, 12:19 PM
The footage ABC news acquired the night Zimmerman was taken in for questioning, but released, is pretty damning also. For someone who was in a "life-or-death" situation, he seems pretty calm and collected in that video, even though it's only approximately 90 seconds.

Also, how about Geraldo's comments that "His hoodie was as responsible for his death"? That's one of the stupidest comments I have ever heard from the Faux Noise machine. Stephen Colbert's comment that if the hoodie makes you appear to be a criminal, then glasses and a suit makes Geraldo look like a journalist was a great counter. But what do we expect from them really?

And this Joe Oliver..."If it wasn't Zimmerman shooting Martin, it would be Martin shooting Zimmerman." Was Trayvon going to shoot him with Skittles? Sounds like a guy who just wants attention to me.

Either way, Zimmerman was told that he did not need to follow Martin, and he continued to, which puts him in the wrong. I'm just glad that any neighborhood watches around here don't have guns at their sides.

Either way you stand on this issue though, there is a 17 year old who was killed, and his killer is still free.

Hopefully this opens strong debate on the "Stand Your Ground Law", from reading it online it seems pretty vague.

halloween
03-30-2012, 12:30 PM
I can't believe this has been drawn out so goddamn much. I heard the FBI is going to be looking into this whole thing...I hope they finally get around to arresting the guy (and firing the inept cops? one only dreams.)

theruiner
03-30-2012, 12:38 PM
Another thing about that surveillance footage that is pretty damning: Zimmerman claims that Treyvon was bashing his head into the concrete (which, let's not forget, a witness said was completely false because the fight happened on the grass, not on concrete), but in the footage, you can clearly see the back of Zimmerman's head without so much as a hint of a scratch, a cut, a bruise, anything. (http://thinkprogress.org/media/2012/03/29/454814/infographic-george-zimmermans-story-v-surveillance-images/)

Now, it's surveillance footage, so it's not exactly the best and clearest picture I've ever seen, but there doesn't appear to be anything. Nothing.

aggroculture
03-30-2012, 01:02 PM
Hopefully this opens strong debate on the "Stand Your Ground Law", from reading it online it seems pretty vague.

I damn hope so: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/26/trayvon-martin-shooting-d_n_1379968.html

Space Suicide
03-30-2012, 01:59 PM
The NAACP is up in my state giving a giant stink about this. I haven't learned or read up much on the case of this but I always find it appalling when they get involved solely for the fact of the person's ethnicity. They don't do it for the fact it is unlawful or morally wrong with evidence and such as it is for the fact just because of the person's ethnicity involved. If it's related to an african american and can be used as a role against 'racism' they'll utilize it.

Deus Ex Machina
03-30-2012, 02:29 PM
Withdrawn . . . too snarky. But seriously, you don't know the details but are going to go ahead and assume that the NAACP's involvement is baseless? Dammit. Don't do that. Learn what's going on, then decide (at the very least).

Space Suicide
03-30-2012, 03:21 PM
Withdrawn . . . too snarky. But seriously, you don't know the details but are going to go ahead and assume that the NAACP's involvement is baseless? Dammit. Don't do that. Learn what's going on, then decide (at the very least). Nah go ahead. I'm not trying to start a flame war or argument it's just my opinion on their status of such things that they get involved in. I'm not saying their entire involvement is baseless but I notice how they quickly jump into action and then turn it on it's head and try to pass it off as being racially motivated. That's all.


This is what sparked my initial post and I couldn't agree more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/

Deus Ex Machina
03-30-2012, 05:03 PM
Nah go ahead. I'm not trying to start a flame war or argument it's just my opinion on their status of such things that they get involved in. I'm not saying their entire involvement is baseless but I notice how they quickly jump into action and then turn it on it's head and try to pass it off as being racially motivated. That's all.

I'm not trying to start an argument either, but, I've 'noticed' how I can't think of a single instance where I felt the NAACP misrepresented something as a racially motivated crime. So, go ahead: Where are they wrong? (http://scnaacp.org/sc-justice-for-trayvon-martin/)

chris
03-30-2012, 05:11 PM
It's not like the NAACP is completely making up the racial motivation. The shooter arguably called Martin "a fucking coon" on the 911 call.

Deus Ex Machina
03-30-2012, 05:28 PM
Did not see this bit:



This is what sparked my initial post and I couldn't agree more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/




But Bryant, who explores the topic of black-on-black crime in his new film “Runaway Slave,” said people like Jackson and Sharpton are being misleading to suggest there is an epidemic of “white men killing black young men.”


Well, I don't see where Jackson and Sharpton have done that. The people speaking out against this crime are doing so because it may well be that Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin with impunity. That's why people are pissed. There doesn't have to be an epidemic for that to be a problem.


“The epidemic is truly black on black crime,” Bryant said. “The greatest danger to the lives of young black men are young black men.”


I fail to see how anyone's silence regarding the Trayvon Martin case will assist with the issue of black on black crime. There's no need to choose between the two.

Frozen Beach
03-30-2012, 05:58 PM
They need to fix the Stand Your Ground Law rather than get rid of it.

Cat Mom
03-30-2012, 06:17 PM
My boss, a lawyer for 36 years, says that it seems that the US Supreme Court decisions don't advocate willy-nilly support of this law. There's an old legal joke about if you shoot a criminal trying to break into your house, drag him INTO YOUR HOUSE or else you're in deep shit.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57407115-504083/trayvon-martin-shooting-what-do-we-know/

The BIGGEST problem with this case, to me, is how Martin somehow "aroused suspicion" of Zimmerman by doing absolutely nothing. It's kinda like what is known as (when being pulled over by a cop) a "DWB" or "Driving While Black."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57398005-504083/the-trayvon-martin-case-exposes-the-realities-of-a-new-generation-of-self-defense-laws/?tag=mncol;let;8

Zimmerman can claim self-defense.

BUT SO CAN MARTIN.

If he wasn't dead.

Space Suicide
03-30-2012, 06:23 PM
Again, I'm not stating that this isn't entirely non-racially motivated. Some portions of it are but I think there's more to the bigger picture then just pinpointing: "Hate Crime, Black vs White. Forever. White Men evil. This was done because he was black not because the offense was insane or morally misguided. I'd just like to see them help lots of people (in their community) without mentioned race as a factor in any way shape or form. Not every crime involving a black person is white vs black mentality.

They do questionable things to flare up racial tension that isn't needed some times often than not. Anyone recall Jackson running for pres in the 80's and calling New York City 'Hymietown'? Anyone recall Sharpton's comments on Mormons in 2007? Meh nevermind

Cat Mom
03-30-2012, 06:31 PM
You're consistently avoiding the main point of how a grand jury is going to look at this incident.

FUCK the big names or Jackson or anybody else, and just look at the FACTS. As much as it may pain you to admit that race may be a factor in this case, it's more than fucking obvious to the most of rest the country (including my mother, in her 70s, who is so upset by this that she wants to join one of those bus rallies) or my former boss (a Jew, also in his 70s, who is even more upset than my mother) that if a white kid had been walking through the neighborhood at night, this would not have happened.

You're starting to really piss me off, and I'm white. No, actually, you're starting to sound kind of scary to me. Like you may be a threat. As i perceive it. And that's all I need. A perception of threat.

And i have a gun.

Really, the ONLY way to finally start healing the racism THAT STILL EXISTS in this country is for this shit to really get people motivated.

You know, kinda like Emmett Till.

Rev. Jackson has been known as an opportunist since before Dr. King was murdered, even black people know this. Rev. Sharpton, not quite as bad but the Girl X case didn't help him. BUT QUIT MAKING THESE TWO DUDES THE FUCKING DALAI LLAMAS OF THE GOD DAMNED BLACK COMMUNITY. Or the consensus of the U.S. Or as arbiters of fact. Or having ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS CASE. It's bullshit. A grand jury isn't gonna say, "But what does Rev. Jackson say about this?"

Space Suicide
03-30-2012, 06:45 PM
A threat? Enlighten me? I'm a peaceful dude, I wouldn't hurt or physically touch anyone for any reason unless my safety or life depended on it. I've had some amazing african-american friends as well, one of which I talk to occasionally and had been friends with my entire middle school enrollment. I'm not a racist guy at all.

I'll just drop it. I was stating an opinion of mine from the past few years of observation and reading about the NAACP in my high school years. I like the NAACP and I find it empowering that they had the courage and morale to initiate JFK to sign the civil rights laws to make everyone's lives better as a whole. I'm not spouting racist ideology; apologies if my comments appeared that way. And food for thought, there's more than just black and white racism in this country.

I'm not replying anymore to this thread.

Cat Mom
03-30-2012, 06:50 PM
A threat? Enlighten me? I'm a peaceful dude, I wouldn't hurt or physically touch anyone for any reason unless my safety or life depended on it.

You missed the point. But maybe now you see my point.

Space Suicide
03-30-2012, 06:52 PM
You missed the point. But maybe now you see my point.

No, I got the point but I assumed you were going elsewhere with it.

Cat Mom
03-30-2012, 06:54 PM
Nope. Just the point that misguided perceptions shouldn't kill people. But they do.

Glad that you see that the NAACP's primary job is to protect people and not to stir up shit unnecessarily. They're not the fucking National Enquirer or TMZ, for Christ sake.

Space Suicide
03-30-2012, 06:58 PM
Nope. Just the point that misguided perceptions shouldn't kill people. But they do.

Glad that you see that the NAACP's primary job is to protect people and not to stir up shit unnecessarily. They're not the fucking National Enquirer or TMZ, for Christ sake.

I'm well aware they aren't.

Cat Mom
03-30-2012, 07:08 PM
As much as I'd love to embrace your "there's more to this" than what it is, like there is some kind of deeper meaning to embrace, I think this country is still far too undeveloped and simple and backwards, segregation-wise, for us to be that rose-lensed. I'd love it if we were. Truly. But, we aren't. I live in Chicago, which is SO fucking segregated, it's scary. Second biggest urban city in the country, and it's hugely segregated. Still. Today. In 2012. I became aware of the Black and Missing Foundation via Whoopi Goldberg, and was shocked. http://newsone.com/nation/find-our-missing/jeffmays/whoopi-goldberg-appeal-helps-locate-missing-black-teen-hours-after-family-appears-on-the-view/ We have a LONG way to go.

50 Volt Phantom
03-30-2012, 07:13 PM
How's everyone feel about Jackson and Sharpton exploited the situation like they usually do? What about the call for race riots and the bounty on Zimmerman by those harmless Black Panther guys that the DOJ is ignoring?

aggroculture
03-30-2012, 07:22 PM
As George Takei points out, the self-defense and perception of threat plea here is beside the point: http://showthemwhat.tumblr.com/post/19913624685/george-takei-trayvon-martin-deserves-justice
Zimmerman pursued and was a threat to Martin, first.
Arrest Zimmerman, and let a jury decide. Stand your ground law be damned.

Cat Mom
03-30-2012, 07:31 PM
Zimmerman pursued and was a threat to Martin, first.
Amen, brother.

chris
03-30-2012, 08:43 PM
You keep emphasizing the response of a few black media figures without even considering the facets of the case that make them call it possible racism. So far, we have some evidence pointing to at least marginal individual racism on the part of the shooter, who may have called the boy a racial slur, combined with Martin's race being one of the primary reasons Zimmerman pursued him. One of the aspects that makes this case so problematic for the shooter is all of the audio that paints a damning picture of his side of the event. Had he not called 911 and said some of the things he did, this case would likely never have received the attention it has. Another issue is the perception of institutional racism on the part of a few cops and prosecutors who declined to even arrest Zimmerman afterwards, apparently partly based on this fucked up stand-your-ground law. There are a lot of complex issues going on, but as is usually the case, I wouldn’t expect conservatives to want to admit or consider that.

50 Volt Phantom
03-30-2012, 09:13 PM
Eyewitnesses are saying there was a fight, he had injuries, the police chose not to arrest him. I keep saying there's more to this story than meets the eye, Martin for instance, has a history of suspensions, drug use, theft, etc. so he's no angel. I trust the judgement of the police in the case, and also agree with the "fucked up stand-your-ground" law.

The emphasis of race isn't just on Trayvon, but also the way news outlets have gone out of their way to paint Zimmerman as white, and not Hispanic. And here I thought Obama was going to bring about post-racial America... There was a murder of a white man at Miss State by three black men, Obama hasn't commented on it, no one is outraged, it just vanished in the news stream. Had it been a black man killed killed by 3 white guys liberals at large would find a way to place racism as a cause. Yet again, liberals live in a land of double standards, just as they get upset about Fluke they don't give a shit about the sexism aimed at Wisconsin's Lt. Governor and her children, but as is usually the case, I wouldn't expect liberals to be anything but hypocrites anyway.

Besides, I'm commenting on the extreme comments of these black figures, like the bounty, the call for race riots, etc. not that they are black figures. So far no one seems to have a problem with them by the lack of comments. Shocking of course.

Ironically, that moron Bobby Rush who wore the hoodie on the floor of the House had a shooting in his district Thursday that killed one and injured five, the two shooters were wearing hoodies when they committed their crime.

theruiner
03-30-2012, 09:15 PM
"Drug use"? He smoked pot, for Christ's sake. Can we stop pretending that that means ANY GOD DAMN THING AT ALL EVER? Especially here.



Ironically, that moron Bobby Rush who wore the hoodie on the floor of the House had a shooting in his district Thursday that killed one and injured five, the two shooters were wearing hoodies when they committed their crime.I'm convinced you're a troll now. Anyone with even half a brain can see that hoodies had nothing to do with it. At all.

50 Volt Phantom
03-30-2012, 09:23 PM
It's still considered a drug, and it got him suspended. I am for legalization, but that doesn't change the fact that he broke the rules, and was suspended 3 times, as well as found with women's jewelry and tools used for theft on him at the same time.

Are you sure hoodies had nothing to do with it? I thought that that was in fact what caught Zimmerman's eye first? Regardless, Bobby Rush trying to make a statement that black men in hoodies shouldn't be immediately suspicious just makes what happened in his district ironic, I would think anyone with half a brain could see that.

theruiner
03-30-2012, 09:27 PM
Are you sure hoodies had nothing to do with it? I thought that that was in fact what caught Zimmerman's eye first? Regardless, Bobby Rush trying to make a statement that black men in hoodies shouldn't be immediately suspicious just makes what happened in his district ironic, I would think anyone with half a brain could see that.
Actually, considering hoodies still have nothing to do with it (they were wearing slacks! Slacks are bad!) I'm going to say that it's not really all that ironic.

Wretchedest
03-30-2012, 09:30 PM
:( without a resident devils advocate (or troll or neo-con or whatever) this forum would surely be dull...

theruiner
03-30-2012, 09:31 PM
If he were being genuine, sure. But I'm starting to really doubt that he is. No one can be this clueless. Honestly.

50 Volt Phantom
03-30-2012, 09:41 PM
I could say the same about any of you, I think most of you are clueless.

theruiner
03-30-2012, 11:13 PM
Oh, Jesus Christ.

Trayvon's e-mail account hacked by white supremacist; contents leaked online.



(http://gawker.com/5897485/white-supremacist-hacks-trayvon-martins-email-account-leaks-messages-online?popular=true)

halloween
03-30-2012, 11:30 PM
Oh, Jesus Christ.

Trayvon's e-mail account hacked by white supremacist; contents leaked online.



(http://gawker.com/5897485/white-supremacist-hacks-trayvon-martins-email-account-leaks-messages-online?popular=true)

This has been a civil rights year to remember.

Space Suicide
03-30-2012, 11:37 PM
Oh, Jesus Christ.

Trayvon's e-mail account hacked by white supremacist; contents leaked online.



(http://gawker.com/5897485/white-supremacist-hacks-trayvon-martins-email-account-leaks-messages-online?popular=true)

I don't see why that had to be done. That's ridiculous.

Harry Seaward
03-31-2012, 01:51 AM
I don't know much about this case either, but I'll say that black supremacists are just as bad as white supremacists. And that 'hate-crimes' should be abolished. If someone kills another human, the reasoning behind it shouldn't matter.

theruiner
03-31-2012, 04:17 AM
There was a murder of a white man at Miss State by three black men, Obama hasn't commented on it, no one is outraged, it just vanished in the news stream. Had it been a black man killed killed by 3 white guys liberals at large would find a way to place racism as a cause.I've read a few stories on that now, and I have to say, I don't see anything in here indicating that race was a motivating factor in the murder. Maybe I just missed it somewhere, but I'm not seeing it. Once again, this appears to be a false equivalency.

And by the way, even if it was racially motivated, it's not really indicative of a bigger problem. I don't think there's a huge problem with racism against white people in this country. Call me crazy.



Yet again, liberals live in a land of double standards, just as they get upset about Fluke they don't give a shit about the sexism aimed at Wisconsin's Lt. Governor and her children, but as is usually the case, I wouldn't expect liberals to be anything but hypocrites anyway.I can't even believe I'm engaging you on this, but ok. I tracked down the audio you're talking about. It is pretty obscure- I found it through Breitbart's website, which linked me to a blog, which linked me to another website, which linked me to the audio. I can't find anything else about this story. Cue "the liberal media is just a giant conspiracy to keep conservatives down" rant, I know. I can tell you that there's not a lot of outrage about this because not a lot of people know about it. I agree that the comments are awful. Absolutely awful. But it STILL isn't the same as what happened with Rush Limbaugh. Insulting ONE PERSON, even though it was uncalled for and totally shitty, is NOT THE SAME as insulting millions of American women, Phantom. Or using your power as a broadcaster with millions of listeners to bully a private citizen and degrade her on a national radio show. It's the powerful bullying the powerless. Jesus, you really can't see the differences there?

I'm sorry to derail this topic, and I know I said I wouldn't engage with this guy, but I get a little sick of seeing lots of questionable information and, on more than one occasion, a false equivalency that just seems to slip through the cracks of the conversation, and I think there should be some accountability for that.



Besides, I'm commenting on the extreme comments of these black figures, like the bounty, the call for race riots, etc. not that they are black figures. So far no one seems to have a problem with them by the lack of comments. Shocking of course.I don't think anyone's saying that's ok. I don't think anyone's said that's not a problem.

Dra508
03-31-2012, 05:56 PM
My Dad inadvertently protested by meeting me on his NYC street corner wearing a hoodie. I thought I was pulling up to a criminal and it turned out to be my Dad.

littlemonkey613
04-01-2012, 05:18 PM
The emphasis of race isn't just on Trayvon, but also the way news outlets have gone out of their way to paint Zimmerman as white, and not Hispanic. And here I thought Obama was going to bring about post-racial America... There was a murder of a white man at Miss State by three black men, Obama hasn't commented on it, no one is outraged, it just vanished in the news stream. Had it been a black man killed killed by 3 white guys liberals at large would find a way to place racism as a cause. Yet again, liberals live in a land of double standards

I so look forward to whenever you post anything.

First of all when we refer to Zimmerman we are not using the word "white" to describe his ethnicity (because it isn't one). We are using the term "white" as synonymous with white privilege and authority (because that's what it is). He is Hispanic, but he is also "white" within this sociological context and within this case. Whiteness was only created to separate those who should have power from those who don't. It has nothing to do with skin color or ethnicity, at least not in the concrete sense. For example, the Irish and Italian were all considered not "white" at a time because they did not have the privilege in this country that "whiteness" is equated to and founded in. While "white" exists there can be no equality because its very existence implies privilege and domination by that group. This is the understanding of race that informed people are going by.


Obama bringing about post-racial America? What idiots are you referring to?



Okay, the reason this is getting so much media attention isn't because of the crime, its because there was no justice in the aftermath! Zimmerman was not arrested and is no closer to a trial that when this all started. THAT is the problem. That is the is true sign of the extent of racism on a systematic level in this country and how it prevails. Why would Obama comment on a case that was handled normally and in which justice was sought in a straightforward fashion?

Yes horrible acts against white people exist and in many cases their whiteness is what made them the target of the horrible act. However, these isolated incidences and the ideas that cause them are not defended and reinforced by the media, the government, actual law, and society as a whole on a systematic level. The outrage over Martin's death is one about systematic oppression, not over a single act.

50 Volt Phantom
04-01-2012, 05:46 PM
Wow, what a crock of total shit that post was, seriously, that whole first paragraph is absolute shit. I'd hardly call that "informed" or anywhere even remotely close to it.

50 Volt Phantom
04-01-2012, 05:55 PM
I've read a few stories on that now, and I have to say, I don't see anything in here indicating that race was a motivating factor in the murder. Maybe I just missed it somewhere, but I'm not seeing it. Once again, this appears to be a false equivalency.

And by the way, even if it was racially motivated, it's not really indicative of a bigger problem. I don't think there's a huge problem with racism against white people in this country. Call me crazy.
I don't see anything that would suggest racial motivation in the killing of Trayvon, so the comparison is just, and I would also disagree on racism against whites not being that big of a deal. I think littlemonkey's post, critical race theory, affirmative action, the inability to show any pride whatsoever in being white while it's acceptable to have brown pride, black pride, all that crap in schools and what not suggests that there is a lot of discrimination in the name of supposed fairness. Yet again, liberal PC crap has created a double standard and hypocrisy.



I can't even believe I'm engaging you on this, but ok. I tracked down the audio you're talking about. It is pretty obscure- I found it through Breitbart's website, which linked me to a blog, which linked me to another website, which linked me to the audio. I can't find anything else about this story. Cue "the liberal media is just a giant conspiracy to keep conservatives down" rant, I know. I can tell you that there's not a lot of outrage about this because not a lot of people know about it. I agree that the comments are awful. Absolutely awful. But it STILL isn't the same as what happened with Rush Limbaugh. Insulting ONE PERSON, even though it was uncalled for and totally shitty, is NOT THE SAME as insulting millions of American women, Phantom. Or using your power as a broadcaster with millions of listeners to bully a private citizen and degrade her on a national radio show. It's the powerful bullying the powerless. Jesus, you really can't see the differences there?
Wait, so when I say that I'm indifferent towards gay marriage and you claim that I must somehow support lynchings then because both are derived from oppression, how does that not apply here? It's only kind of bad that a Lt. Governor in Wisconsin has sexist remarks made against her, whereas what Rush did is just on a whole other level because it involved more people? I think you need to be more consistent. Sexism is sexism, you seem to let one slide more than the other.

As for Sharpton and race riots and what not, I just haven't seen any outcry that it's awful, and yet it's completely acceptable to rail on the NRA and Jeb Bush when they have basically nothing to do with the case. Liberal hypocrisy strikes again.

littlemonkey613
04-01-2012, 06:03 PM
Wow, what a crock of total shit that post was, seriously, that whole first paragraph is absolute shit. I'd hardly call that "informed" or anywhere even remotely close to it.

So much hatred for sociology. Care to quote a sentence and explain why its bullshit?

50 Volt Phantom
04-01-2012, 06:11 PM
There can be no equality when you define privilege as being "white" not the other way around, it is you that have chosen to use race as a means of defining standing, therefore you have created racial division. Sociology is fine, but not when it's mixed in with the kind of crap you're talking about.

harrismonkey
04-01-2012, 06:12 PM
I only have one thing to add that really disturbs me about all of this (lots of disturbing things happened, but that's not where I'm going)-

We're all second guessing based off what the media gives us (BTW, I strongly dislike trial by media- it has very little interest in truth or justice- just headlines and ratings, the whole "if it bleeds it leads thing")- the whole country is going off the picture the media is painting- it may or may not be fair and accurate.

What bothers me is this- I only see this ending one of two ways- 1) The guy ends up in jail (and if he deserves to be there- GREAT!). 2) The guy either gets off or is never prosecuted- in both of these scenarios I think we'll see rioting, and this publicity will destroy his life for years (assuming he's not murdered).

We have a man who may or may not have killed someone without reason- the media has declared him guilty (remember none of us have full information- or even as much as the police/FBI have). If he's found not to have committed a crime (just a horrible misunderstanding that may haunt him forever), there's no good ending. He'll be hounded for years and we'll have who knows how much property destroyed in riots.

Does that make sense?

I'm all for justice. I'm just not sure what that means yet.

P.S. I've heard that "coon" tape- John Stewart concluded it sounded like Dick Cheney's new heart trying to swim out of his chest. I didn't know I was looking for the word Coon- but I couldn't make any sense out of those sounds.

50 Volt Phantom
04-01-2012, 06:16 PM
He's already guilty in the minds of most of the people here I'm sure, but I agree with your take on it, we don't have the full picture.

aggroculture
04-01-2012, 06:26 PM
There needs to be a trial. It's that simple.
Letting Zimmerman go scott free because he said it was self-defense, or because there's a law in Florida that says you can kill someone and say it was self-defense, is not justice.
Bring him to trial, and let a jury decide whether they believe Zimmerman's story or not.

theruiner
04-01-2012, 06:33 PM
I don't see anything that would suggest racial motivation in the killing of Trayvon, so the comparison is just, and I would also disagree on racism against whites not being that big of a deal. I think littlemonkey's post, critical race theory, affirmative action, the inability to show any pride whatsoever in being white while it's acceptable to have brown pride, black pride, all that crap in schools and what not suggests that there is a lot of discrimination in the name of supposed fairness. Yet again, liberal PC crap has created a double standard and hypocrisy.When will someone give white people a fair shake in this country?



Wait, so when I say that I'm indifferent towards gay marriage and you claim that I must somehow support lynchings then because both are derived from oppression, how does that not apply here? It's only kind of bad that a Lt. Governor in Wisconsin has sexist remarks made against her, whereas what Rush did is just on a whole other level because it involved more people? I think you need to be more consistent. Sexism is sexism, you seem to let one slide more than the other.Wow. You really don't get it, do you? I've explained this twice. If you can't see the difference between one person being insulted and millions of people, and the difference between one person with power insulting another person with power and one person with power attempting to completely destroy the reputation of someone who is powerless, then I guess you're just never going to get it. Jesus Christ, this is why you're being called a troll, dude. It really seems like willful ignorance most of the time with you.

harrismonkey
04-01-2012, 06:37 PM
There needs to be a trial. It's that simple.
Letting Zimmerman go scott free because he said it was self-defense, or because there's a law in Florida that says you can kill someone and say it was self-defense, is not justice.
Bring him to trial, and let a jury decide whether they believe Zimmerman's story or not.

There's a good chance there will be a trial at this point just because this has become so high profile and no one will want to be the person who decided against a trial.

But most investigations don't go to trial. The prosecutors have to decide if there's enough evidence to prosecute. (Right or wrong) the first time through they decided they didn't have enough evidence (that doesn't necessarily make him innocent- it just means they didn't feel they had strong enough evidence to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime had been committed- the stand your ground law probably figures into that- I bet it eventually gets repealed because of this).

Then, if they decide they have the evidence to prosecute they will attempt to plea bargain this out by offering a lesser sentence/jail time then the prosecutors will seek if they go to court. This is done to save time, money and prevent our courts from being overwhelmed with to many cases.

I seem to recall something like 3/4 of all cases never actually make it to court.



The really sad thing is there's good chance innocent people have taken plea bargains because the risk/time/money involved in completely clearing themselves was to great.

littlemonkey613
04-01-2012, 06:40 PM
There can be no equality when you define privilege as being "white" not the other way around, it is you that have chosen to use race as a means of defining standing, therefore you have created racial division. Sociology is fine, but not when it's mixed in with the kind of crap you're talking about.

I wasn't the one who created this divide. It's so impossible to argue with someone who does not even acknowledge how "white" was founded in this country. I already explained and all you had to say was that it was crap just because.
1
White is not skin color! It is a socially constructed pan ethnic group in which its members share ONE thing in common. Their dun dun dun! PRIVILEGE over minorities.

In the same way brown people and black people of different cultures and backgrounds have NOTHING in common except dun dun dun their oppression at the hands of the white majority.

But your're right, its not fair that white people cannot come together and celebrate the thing they share in common, especially when its something so wonderful. :D
The only thing that even makes them a group is the fact that they have power. You can go and celebrate that all you want. Groups that weren't considered white in the past joined your awesome club when society granted them the privileges of the majority. But you're right, its not inherently racist to celebrate this.

Acknowledging reality does not create that reality.

sweeterthan
04-01-2012, 08:38 PM
We already know Zimmerman is guilty because he's admitting to killing Martin. We already know it was racial because he says 'fucking coons' on the taped recording. Just because Jon Stewart doesn't hear it doesn't mean I can't. I've listened to it quite a few times and that's what he says. The reason there isn't enough evidence in this case is because one of the witnesses is dead and because the police didn't do their jobs correctly. That's injustice.

Cat Mom
04-01-2012, 09:10 PM
There needs to be a trial. It's that simple.
Letting Zimmerman go scott free because he said it was self-defense, or because there's a law in Florida that says you can kill someone and say it was self-defense, is not justice.
Bring him to trial, and let a jury decide whether they believe Zimmerman's story or not.
Right now, discovery is (allegedly) being gathered for review by a grand jury to determine if charges should be filed. If so, prosecuting attorneys will get a warrant from a judge, Zimmerman will be arrested and indicted, then the criminal legal process will begin. But gathering discovery can be a REALLY long process. There's a ton of evidence (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/01/10963191-trayvon-martin-case-911-call-screams-not-george-zimmermans-2-experts-say) to gather.

I'm a Certificated Paralegal, but here's a simple explanation from an attorney: http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2012/03/george-zimmerman-case-what-is-a-grand-jury.html

Tiz
04-01-2012, 11:48 PM
I believe what little we know provides transparency.

Contradictions to Zimmerman's statements can be found in the surveillance footage.
This happened in Florida.
Zimmerman was quoted using a racial epitaph.
This happened in Florida.
Zimmerman was fired from his previous job due to anger issues.
This happened in Florida.

I infer George Zimmerman is a liar, has a temper, uses racial slurs, and worse yet - he's a POLICE OFFICER in the state of FLORIDA. Which may be the most important fact. Wait, I'm getting ahead of myself. What kind of hoodie did you say it was?

Cat Mom
04-02-2012, 12:07 AM
Zimmerman isn't a police officer.

This is a good article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto

theruiner
04-02-2012, 01:15 AM
^^
I have to say, reading that article, I really don't buy Zimmerman's account even more. I mean, I was highly suspicious before, but I guess I had never heard his account of what actually happened (the part about Travyon walking up and just punching him). I don't buy that at all. Trayvon calls his girlfriend and says someone's following him and then says, "I'm going to walk fast" to get away from him. Then, a few minutes later, he pops out of the shadows after Zimmerman is no longer a threat and just starts a fight with him? Bullshit. Two minutes ago, he's (understandably) nervous and wants to get out of there. Then he does a complete 180 and now wants to kick this guy's ass? I'm not buying it.

Add to that the fact that Zimmerman's account of his head being bashed into the concrete is, at least according to one witness, complete bullshit because they were fighting on the grass. Add to that the surveillance footage showing no signs of injury. Add to that, obviously, the psychotic way Zimmerman was acting earlier that night. I know I'm just rehashing what everyone else has said, but Jesus Christ.

chris
04-02-2012, 01:50 AM
I trust the judgement of the police in the case, and also agree with the "fucked up stand-your-ground" law. So Zimmerman had a right to stand his ground from Martin? OK, I want you to think slowly and carefully about this. Do you also then acknowledge Martin had a right to stand his ground from Zimmerman? Or is Martin already guilty because of his other crimes which you have so graciously enlightened us on? Do you see how the ambiguity in the law can make for a more dangerous society when anyone can claim self defense for anything, especially in a society where we are encouraged to walk around carrying concealed handguns?
I don't see anything that would suggest racial motivation in the killing of Trayvon. What about calling him a coon?
Are you sure hoodies had nothing to do with it? I thought that that was in fact what caught Zimmerman's eye first? Are you capable of acknowledging that both clothing AND RACE appear to play a part in this? That it was not simply one or the other?
Martin for instance, has a history of suspensions, drug use, theft, etc. so he's no angel. Attacking a dead kid to avoid admitting to political critiques is a straight up piece of shit move.
it is you that have chosen to use race as a means of defining standing, therefore you have created racial division. This is the same defensive tactic as attacking Obama/Occupy for “creating” class resentment. The fault doesn’t lie with the person pointing out the problem. In fact, the whole strategy of the modern GOP is to create resentment, and your bullshit typifies what makes it sadly successful on the internet. It is the perfect medium to spread lies and disinformation because there are no consequences to it. You don’t have to answer to the person you’re slandering. If you’re pointed out as being wrong, you can simply choose to ignore it and wait it out until the subject changes, or move on to some other hole on the web.

harrismonkey
04-02-2012, 02:09 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-case-exposes-worst-media-210020839.html

This doesn't for a second indicate that Zimmerman isn't guilty (I have no strong opinion). But it is a wonderful example of just how flawed some of the information people are pulling from is. Especially #2.

theruiner
04-02-2012, 07:45 AM
And it just gets deeper.

Forensic experts say it is Martin on the 911 tapes, not Zimmerman, who was screaming for help. (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-screams-911-tape-george-zimmerman-experts-article-1.1054067)


Another tidbit from the article:

EMS documents obtained by the Daily News suggested the 28-year-old insurance agent didn't sustain any injuries either in the alleged dust-up.

Deus Ex Machina
04-02-2012, 10:45 AM
Okay, the reason this is getting so much media attention isn't because of the crime, its because there was no justice in the aftermath! Zimmerman was not arrested and is no closer to a trial that when this all started. THAT is the problem.

This 1000 times. Black assailants get arrested, go to trial, and face the full force of the justice system. The police, more or less, covered for Zimmerman, and didn't care to arrest or investigate the issue. There's outrage because that's what it took to get the system to act. That's why the Martin case is different, that's why people are upset.

Space Suicide
04-02-2012, 11:07 AM
This 1000 times. Black assailants get arrested, go to trial, and face the full force of the justice system. The police, more or less, covered for Zimmerman, and didn't care to arrest or investigate the issue. There's outrage because that's what it took to get the system to act. That's why the Martin case is different, that's why people are upset.

Well his position and his initial posted reason of being there is why he has gotten away with it so far. It is unfair and justice has yet to be fullfilled. I may have not stated it as blatant as I did earlier but you get my idea of what I was trying to say earlier - this is about the act, the crime and the morality. This isn't a racial based case as much as it could be. It involves discrimination and race and even if it was race for his reason of death I think the main issue is the aftermath and shouldn't be spotlighted on the race issue. That was the reason of my NAACP comment earlier.

Deus Ex Machina
04-02-2012, 12:04 PM
Well his position and his initial posted reason of being there is why he has gotten away with it so far. It is unfair and justice has yet to be fullfilled. I may have not stated it as blatant as I did earlier but you get my idea of what I was trying to say earlier - this is about the act, the crime and the morality. This isn't a racial based case as much as it could be. It involves discrimination and race and even if it was race for his reason of death I think the main issue is the aftermath and shouldn't be spotlighted on the race issue. That was the reason of my NAACP comment earlier.

I understand what you are saying. I really do. But, think of it this way: How much 'worse' was it supposed to be? Given that this involves discrimination and race, but not to a sufficient degree, how much is necessary before you'd permit a reaction of this nature from the NAACP and others? I think you might find you have difficulty defining your standard.

The Martin case is an example of how racism and prejudice rear their head in the modern world. Zimmerman was not some Klansman. There was no white power rally beforehand. It's not like that. It's not overt. And in some ways it's not even intentional. But it's still there. It's subtle, and you have to think about it. But we're all capable of understanding how race and prejudice played a role and we should point it out. What, really, should the NAACP do? Wait for something more obvious or egregious? I don't think anything more obvious or egregious is on the way (or at least I hope not). Even if there were, that wouldn't change the part that race and prejudice played in the way things happened. I think we should be glad that organizations like the NAACP have (among other things) taken on the responsibility of pointing out the presence of racism and prejudice, even when when that presence is nebulous and hard to detect.

Amaro
04-02-2012, 12:29 PM
Post-shooting 911 call got me down.

Edit: Realized it was a call made during the altercation.

littlemonkey613
04-02-2012, 03:13 PM
I understand what you are saying. I really do. But, think of it this way: How much 'worse' was it supposed to be? Given that this involves discrimination and race, but not to a sufficient degree, how much is necessary before you'd permit a reaction of this nature from the NAACP and others? I think you might find you have difficulty defining your standard.

The Martin case is an example of how racism and prejudice rear their head in the modern world. .

EXACTLY. This is what racism looks like today. It is subtle, and takes effort and a better understanding of society to fully realize it but it is racism plain and simple.

People of privilege in this day and age assume that racism, sexism etc. is as blatant as wearing a KKK costume or litearlly saying you hate women but that's not how it is in the vast majority of cases. People are not even aware of their own prejudices and if you note reality people jump on you saying you are the one stirring things up when to you its clear as day.

Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin because of the way he LOOKED. I'm surprised people think the hoody thing makes this less racist, if anything it confirms it 100%..... LOL

chris
04-02-2012, 03:14 PM
This is a good article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto

I love how the article hints at the larger forces going on in the town (really at this point it could be anywhere, USA). Crammed populations, economic insecurity, scarce physical resources, all combine to put people increasingly on edge and looking out only for themselves. After reading this, I felt just a sliver of compassion for Zimmerman. The article’s chronicling of his past makes him sound more or less like a good person who was falling victim to these large societal issues, but combined with a pathological desire to have official power/authority. They had better get these stand your ground laws fixed because there are going to be a lot more instances of them as the economy continues its slow grind towards collapse.

Also: Funeral director says Trayvon showed no signs of a struggle. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/george-zimmermans-crumbling-story-part-2-the-mortician/2012/03/29/gIQAaOwsiS_blog.html)

Self.Destructive.Pattern
04-02-2012, 04:35 PM
Such a mess. The fact that Zimmerman said "Fucking Coons" or whatever on the call is no surprise there that this has everything to do with race... and a hoody lol. I live in a pretty populated area with many races. Where I live there are a good amount of african americans and whites in my neighborhood that I see walking up and down the street day by day. Yes some may come off as suspicious, they wear hoodies, they smoke cigarettes, but that doesn't give me any reason to say let me call the cops on them because they "seem" like they are up to something. Shit, cops have told me and others that I know that they pulled me or them over soley because I had my hood up in the car! This country is so fucked up to the point that I am considered suspicious because of an article of clothing I may be wearing. And this is not only in New York obviously.

Martin was minding his own business. Wasn't sitting out there staking out the place or waiting for a long amount of time.. he was walking home and talking to his girlfriend on the phone telling her he was just going to start walking faster because Zimmerman started to follow him. Seems like he was pretty much fighting for his life for no reason and Zimmerman just popped him because of his race. It is so obvious it is almost sensless to even fight and debate about it. Yes there may be factors that come into play... but it is just ridiculous that the lead investigator of this case said the night this happened he wanted to charge Zimmerman with Manslaughter. That was pretty much over looked until it was leaked last week.

50 Volt Phantom
04-02-2012, 08:36 PM
So Zimmerman had a right to stand his ground from Martin? OK, I want you to think slowly and carefully about this. Do you also then acknowledge Martin had a right to stand his ground from Zimmerman? Or is Martin already guilty because of his other crimes which you have so graciously enlightened us on? Do you see how the ambiguity in the law can make for a more dangerous society when anyone can claim self defense for anything, especially in a society where we are encouraged to walk around carrying concealed handguns?
Martin was the suspicious individual, Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch captain. In a neighborhood that had apparently suffered several robberies I think following and approaching Martin to see what was up was justified. If it was my neighborhood and there was a rash of unsolved robberies I would be just as vigilant when it came to someone who Zimmerman said looked high and definitely out of place. On approach if said person turned to attack me I would defend myself as well, again, Martin was the out of place person here. Change either of their skin colors and give them different clothes and the situation is the same.

What about calling him a coon?
I don't hear it. Even Jon Stewart, who is basically a jester for liberals doesn't hear it.

Are you capable of acknowledging that both clothing AND RACE appear to play a part in this? That it was not simply one or the other?
You better tell theruiner this, because he seems convinced the hoodie played no part, and I've already stated my position on the race aspect of this. That is that there is none.

Attacking a dead kid to avoid admitting to political critiques is a straight up piece of shit move.
Neighborhood suffers rash of robberies, kid is caught and punished at least once for theft, I'm not saying he's guilty of any of the robberies in the neighborhood, but I have a feeling someone with a past is going to act the way he did against Zimmerman.

This is the same defensive tactic as attacking Obama/Occupy for “creating” class resentment. The fault doesn’t lie with the person pointing out the problem. In fact, the whole strategy of the modern GOP is to create resentment, and your bullshit typifies what makes it sadly successful on the internet. It is the perfect medium to spread lies and disinformation because there are no consequences to it. You don’t have to answer to the person you’re slandering. If you’re pointed out as being wrong, you can simply choose to ignore it and wait it out until the subject changes, or move on to some other hole on the web.
Haha, ya, the GOP creates resentment, that's a good one, seriously. I guess if you hate the rich and think Wall Street is despicable then you might side with Occupy pointing out a "problem" but really Occupy and Obama have done all they can to incite division everywhere they can.

Theruiner, you still don't see your own hypocrisy, and that's fine, it's like when you couldn't see the difference between lynching black people and blowing up black churches and gays not being able to marry, one is undeniably on an entire different spectrum than the other, but yet you treated me as if I was okay with both for being indifferent to gay marriage. I understand it's your bias that makes you somehow condone one being less worse than the other when it comes to the WI Lt. Governor and her children, even though you could not do so in the matter of gay marriage.

theruiner
04-02-2012, 09:28 PM
Martin was the suspicious individual, Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch captain. In a neighborhood that had apparently suffered several robberies I think following and approaching Martin to see what was up was justified. If it was my neighborhood and there was a rash of unsolved robberies I would be just as vigilant when it came to someone who Zimmerman said looked high and definitely out of place. On approach if said person turned to attack me I would defend myself as well, again, Martin was the out of place person here. Change either of their skin colors and give them different clothes and the situation is the same.So...are you just going to ignore the mounting evidence that Martin didn't attack Zimmerman? That it was the other way around? Just going to keep living in fantasy land? Actually, why the hell am I even asking that?


You better tell theruiner this, because he seems convinced the hoodie played no part, and I've already stated my position on the race aspect of this. That is that there is none.Wow. So now you're making up stuff in your head about me, too.

The fact that he's wearing a hoodie means nothing. It may have meant something to Zimmerman because he's a delusional crackpot. But to any rational person, a hoodie doesn't mean someone is trouble, just like any other article of clothing. Misquoting me and trying to put words in my mouth only makes you look like a desperate moron.


Neighborhood suffers rash of robberies, kid is caught and punished at least once for theft, I'm not saying he's guilty of any of the robberies in the neighborhood, but I have a feeling someone with a past is going to act the way he did against Zimmerman.Completely ignoring the fact that there is absolutely nothing on his record about violence. And, to the best of my knowledge, he was never punished for theft, because they couldn't prove there actually was theft. And, apparently, you're also, again, completely ignoring the increasing evidence that Zimmerman attacked Martin.


Haha, ya, the GOP creates resentment, that's a good one, seriously. I guess if you hate the rich and think Wall Street is despicable then you might side with Occupy pointing out a "problem" but really Occupy and Obama have done all they can to incite division everywhere they can.My God.


Theruiner, you still don't see your own hypocrisy, and that's fine, it's like when you couldn't see the difference between lynching black people and blowing up black churches and gays not being able to marry, one is undeniably on an entire different spectrum than the other, but yet you treated me as if I was okay with both for being indifferent to gay marriage. I understand it's your bias that makes you somehow condone one being less worse than the other when it comes to the WI Lt. Governor and her children, even though you could not do so in the matter of gay marriage.Once again misquoting me and trying to make me look bad. Except one of us has a history of making stuff up and misconstruing things to try to "win" the argument, even if he's completely and utterly wrong in his facts. Take a wild guess which one of us that is.

Anyway, whatever. I've put you on my 'ignore' list. I don't even think you're a troll anymore. I think you really are that delusional (and I'm being kind there). There's no point in debating with someone who doesn't understand or use facts and who misconstrues what other people say and then tries to make them look bad. You just keep doing what you do.

50 Volt Phantom
04-02-2012, 09:52 PM
So...are you just going to ignore the mounting evidence that Martin didn't attack Zimmerman? That it was the other way around? Just going to keep living in fantasy land? Actually, why the hell am I even asking that?
Ya, the wounds on him and the eyewitnesses say otherwise.


Wow. So now you're making up stuff in your head about me, too.

The fact that he's wearing a hoodie means nothing. It may have meant something to Zimmerman because he's a delusional crackpot. But to any rational person, a hoodie doesn't mean someone is trouble, just like any other article of clothing. Misquoting me and trying to put words in my mouth only makes you look like a desperate moron.
Said by you: "Actually, considering hoodies still have nothing to do with it (they were wearing slacks! Slacks are bad!) I'm going to say that it's not really all that ironic." And this: "Anyone with even half a brain can see that hoodies had nothing to do with it. At all."

Obviously some people believe the hoodie played a part, even your cohorts here can accept that.


Completely ignoring the fact that there is absolutely nothing on his record about violence. And, to the best of my knowledge, he was never punished for theft, because they couldn't prove there actually was theft. And, apparently, you're also, again, completely ignoring the increasing evidence that Zimmerman attacked Martin.
I don't see this increase in evidence that Zimmerman attacked him anywhere, and if there's any credibility to some of the images floating around from an Anon hack into his facebook then his past is just as questionable as has been suggested. Someone who has been suspended multiple times is bound to have some bad decision making skills.


My God.
Yep, you're one of the Wall Street/rich hating folks, I know.


Once again misquoting me and trying to make me look bad. Except one of us has a history of making stuff up and misconstruing things to try to "win" the argument, even if he's completely and utterly wrong in his facts. Take a wild guess which one of us that is.
And here you are in the indecision thread implying that my indifference towards gay marriage is the same thing as condoning segregation, lynching, etc:

"Oh, so THAT makes it ok. Alright. By that logic, if black people weren't allowed to get married (or interracial couples, taking it out of the hypothetical), then THAT would be ok. They're not hurting black people, just saying they shouldn't be allowed to get married to each other. I get it now. Thanks for clarifying.

And by the way, apparently you've never heard of someone being beaten up for being gay. Maybe you should check the newspaper every now and again.

It's not the amount of hatred one group experiences (although, in the case of the gay community, they have certainly experienced a LOT of it) or the amount of hate crimes committed against them (though, again...) but the fact that you are singling out a single group of people and denying them equal rights. And you're defending that. Jesus."

And this:

"See, here's the thing- I'm cool with other people having different opinions. What I'm not cool with is bigotry. So, if you're a bigot, I'm going to call you one. If you're against gay marriage, I'm going to call you out on that, too. And since you're defending these idiots who are against gay marriage, that doesn't make you much better, 50 Volt. And acting indifferent toward it is just as fucking bad. And not seeing it for the giant civil rights issue that it is is pretty bad, too."

theruiner
04-02-2012, 09:55 PM
Edit: Alright, this is the last thing I'll say. I apologize to everyone for contributing to taking this off-topic. I didn't feel a Shitlist was quite warranted here, but I couldn't just sit by and let someone misconstrue things I've said or take things out of context to try and make me look bad. But I've made my point and, again, sorry for veering things off topic.

ON topic: In other news, here are three cases that prove the Stand Your Ground law lets cold-blooded murderers off the hook. (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/02/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS255012401620120402)

Yeah- 'cause murdering an innocent person who accidentally knocks on the wrong door looking for a Halloween party is totally ok.

aggroculture
04-03-2012, 02:26 AM
The alternate reality crowd talk like an innocent kid on his way home wasn't shot dead by a man who was told by the police not to get involved.

chris
04-03-2012, 03:27 AM
Haha, ya, the GOP creates resentment, that's a good one, seriously
The modern GOP has been exploiting white backlash under the banner of states’ rights since the 1960s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy), and conservatism for as long as progressives have been promoting the interests of the disenfranchised.

I don't see this increase in evidence that Zimmerman attacked him anywhere.
Yep no evidence whatsoever. Let’s recap:
1.) Zimmerman ignores a dispatcher order to not follow him.
2) The kid showed no signs of a struggle to the coroner.
3) Zimmerman shows little signs of a struggle on intake video taken 45 minutes after the shooting. He shows no cuts, no dirty or ripped clothes, his shirt is still tucked in. He doesn't appear disoriented or distraught.
4) Audio analysis shows the voice crying for help on the 911 call more likely to be Martin, and they suspiciously stop immediately following the gunshot.
5) Some of the eyewitness reports have Zimmerman on top.
6) The lead detective recommended charging him with manslaughter, but was overruled by the State Attorney's office, hopefully not because of racism but because of this fucked up stand your ground law.

Neighborhood suffers rash of robberies, kid is caught and punished at least once for theft, I'm not saying he's guilty of any of the robberies in the neighborhood, but I have a feeling someone with a past is going to act the way he did against Zimmerman.
So now you’re insinuating that the kid was the one responsible for the crimes in the neighborhood? Even if he was, how would Zimmerman have any way of knowing that? Because he was wearing a hoodie? Because he looked high? Because he was black? Not even licensed law enforcement can play judge/jury/executioner but Joe Citizen with his pistol can?

theruiner
04-03-2012, 04:03 AM
^^Don't forget that one of the witnesses has said that Zimmerman was on the grass when the fight occurred, not on the sidewalk, as Zimmerman claims.

That being said, enhanced video has come out showing an apparent head wound on the back of Zimmerman's head. (http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-case-doctor-sees-evidence-george-zimmerman/story?id=16055412#.T3quF9nuUl0)

Although, the doctor they talked to for the article noted the following:


"If somebody had been beating his head against concrete I'd think we'd see more obvious scrapes," Friedman said. He also said he would expect to see bandages on Zimmerman's head.


More significantly for Friedman was the condition of Zimmerman's nose.

"All of the ridges in his nose are clearly defined. You would expect significant swelling in the hour or two after a break. There appears to be none. It doesn't look like his nose was broken or badly broken," Friedman said.



So now you’re insinuating that the kid was the one responsible for the crimes in the neighborhood? Even if he was, how would Zimmerman have any way of knowing that? Because he was wearing a hoodie? Because he looked high? Because he was black? Not even licensed law enforcement can play judge/jury/executioner but Joe Citizen with his pistol can?
This.

And Zimmerman has a long history of calling 911 for every little thing, including people leaving their garage doors open and kids playing in the street. Whether or not his suspicion was racially motivated, I highly, highly doubt Martin was doing anything suspicious. He absolutely had every right to be there, as that's where he was staying. And even if he WAS acting suspicious, it is absolutely, positively not ok in any way, shape or form for George Zimmerman to follow or confront him, especially with a God damn gun. He wasn't a police officer, he was a God damn neighborhood watch captain who thought he was a freaking cop. Whatever happened after that can be debated, but he never should have done any of that in the first place.

Amaro
04-03-2012, 10:35 AM
I was under the impression that Martin crying for help was due to having been shot. And when he stopped, it was due to being dead. I don't remember catching a gunshot sound in the clip.

Edit: But now I'm remembering the witness on the phone with 911 distanced herself from the scene further from within her house...gradually making it more difficult to hearing Martin. Still, though I should listen closely again to the sequence in the audio, it sounded like a painful yelling from the beginning.

Edit: Nevermind. I hear it correctly now... God, I hate listening to the clip.

chris
04-03-2012, 03:15 PM
Saw this in my newsfeed this morning and it instantly reminded me of this thread: http://www.everydaysociologyblog.com/2012/04/framing-the-trayvon-martin-case-a-tale-of-two-narratives.html

imail724
04-03-2012, 03:21 PM
Am I the only one that thinks Zimmerman was in the right to do what he did? I mean, come on, Trayvon was wearing a hoodie! What did he expect?

aggroculture
04-03-2012, 04:49 PM
Saw this in my newsfeed this morning and it instantly reminded me of this thread: http://www.everydaysociologyblog.com/2012/04/framing-the-trayvon-martin-case-a-tale-of-two-narratives.html

I hate to keep banging this same nail on the head over and over, but the two narratives are not equivalent. Zimmerman can say what he likes. Martin can't say anything.
Even if Martin is a tough thug and a thief, what Zimmerman did was wrong, unjustified, and to my mind murder. Even if Martin is walking in and out of houses with flatscreen TVs hidden under his hoodie, this is still no justification for killing him.

Space Suicide
04-03-2012, 05:24 PM
Am I the only one that thinks Zimmerman was in the right to do what he did? I mean, come on, Trayvon was wearing a hoodie! What did he expect?

I'm not condoning it and I don't agree but the notion of a hoodie usually signals crime and people that like to conceal their identity when doing a wrongful deed. That's why I think the hoodie being in the picture came into play

theruiner
04-03-2012, 05:28 PM
A hoodie signals that someone likes hoodies. Period. Or, in this case, that it was raining outside and Trayvon probably didn't want to get soaking wet. That's it.

Amaro
04-03-2012, 05:46 PM
The fact that Zimmerman went against what was said to him by the cops (caught on record), armed, approached someone who was NOT threatening to him, or anyone else (that much would've been described by Zimmerman upon calling the cops if it were so), ended up killing him...I can't fathom a ruling other than murder/manslaughter.

Anything else is bullshit to me. He should at least get many years in prison.

Check this compilation of 911 calls from witnesses at the site...a LOT I've never heard or even heard of before now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruEOnEV3VUg

I wanna know what's going on with the phone conversation with Trayvon's girlfriend.

Zimmerman's brother is a hoot. That motherfucker.

theruiner
04-03-2012, 06:15 PM
Another aspect of this I hadn't thought of. I was just reading an article on this (which I would link to but almost all of it was rehashed information, so it's not even work linking to), where they made a good point: the apparent gash on the back of Zimmerman's head does not mean that he was necessarily being attacked. That could have happened while Trayvon was trying to defend himself from Zimmerman.

Cat Mom
04-03-2012, 06:39 PM
I think we should all reseve judgment until HOPEFULLY a grand jury is assembled and HOPEFULLY this case goes to trial. I think, really, what the protesters are hoping for, desire, is that a grand jury determines whether or not this case falls within the realm of the "Stand Your Ground" law.

In effect, it TESTS the Stand Your Ground law in Florida, and could possible either change it or repeal it.

Laws are just words on paper until they are tested with real-life situations and are defined, revised or repealed via case law.

The only info we're getting, now, is from the media. Honestly, the media is the LAST place we should go to get real information.

chris
04-03-2012, 08:43 PM
I hate to keep banging this same nail on the head over and over, but the two narratives are not equivalent. The point of the article was merely to ask how and why the media is putting forth multiple ways of framing the story, not to say that the two are equivalent. Since the entire thread seems have devolved into these two narratives bashing away at each other, I thought it relevant.

50 Volt Phantom
04-03-2012, 08:45 PM
^^Don't forget that one of the witnesses has said that Zimmerman was on the grass when the fight occurred, not on the sidewalk, as Zimmerman claims.

That being said, enhanced video has come out showing an apparent head wound on the back of Zimmerman's head. (http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-case-doctor-sees-evidence-george-zimmerman/story?id=16055412#.T3quF9nuUl0)

Although, the doctor they talked to for the article noted the following:
NO WAY! Oh my god, they quickly deduced there were no injuries from the video, then upon cleaning it up had to admit they were a bunch of dumbfucks, and then they brought a doctor on to downplay the wounds? WOW, that is crazy!


And Zimmerman has a long history of calling 911 for every little thing, including people leaving their garage doors open and kids playing in the street. Whether or not his suspicion was racially motivated, I highly, highly doubt Martin was doing anything suspicious. He absolutely had every right to be there, as that's where he was staying. And even if he WAS acting suspicious, it is absolutely, positively not ok in any way, shape or form for George Zimmerman to follow or confront him, especially with a God damn gun. He wasn't a police officer, he was a God damn neighborhood watch captain who thought he was a freaking cop. Whatever happened after that can be debated, but he never should have done any of that in the first place.
A. I highly doubt racism had anything to do with this incident at all, so you all can stop trying to find a way to fit it into the story.
B. If someone is acting suspicious in my neighborhood, that has been robbed numerous times with no arrests, I AM going to go out and confront them, for the sake of myself and my neighbors, I would also call the police as well, but with the robbers continuing to get away I might follow the person too. Unless you enjoy your neighborhood getting robbed a bunch and not doing anything about it.
C. I'm sure it's not at all possible for an eyewitness to make a mistake in positioning where a fight is taking place at night, or even missing some of the fight, OR that Zimmerman himself might get some facts wrong after being involved in a traumatic event. I'm sure if you got into a fight with someone and felt the need to fire a gun which led to the death of someone you might get some details a little bit incorrect.
D. Is it really so difficult for you to realize that wearing that hoodie up may have set up Trayvon to be seen as suspicious, I mean my middle school and high school didn't ban them without reason, and the killers in the Bobby Rush district wearing hoodies as well as most gas station robbery videos just proves that hoodies with the hood up create a negative reaction in certain individuals.

Space Suicide
04-03-2012, 09:10 PM
A hoodie signals that someone likes hoodies. Period. Or, in this case, that it was raining outside and Trayvon probably didn't want to get soaking wet. That's it.

You can't state that a majority of robbery perps don't wear hoodies and masks. You get the occasional guy that wears a ski mask once in awhile. I'm not saying he deserved this trouble by wearing the hoodie but I'm stating why I believe 'suspicion' arose.

theruiner
04-03-2012, 09:11 PM
I think I've changed my tune.

I just took a picture of this guy (http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l215/giphangster/kidhoodie.jpg) walking around my neighborhood. I'm pretty sure he's up to no good. I'm going to follow him and confront him, because I don't like the look of him. Plus, he's got some M&M's in his hand, and I don't know what the hell that's all about, but it can't be good news. I heard of a murderer last week who had M&M's in his pockets (apparently he had to keep his blood sugar up; murder will do that to you) so it made me extra suspicious. I'll report back as soon as I find out anything.

littlemonkey613
04-03-2012, 09:13 PM
You can't state that a majority of robbery perps don't wear hoodies and masks. You get the occasional guy that wears a ski mask once in awhile. I'm not saying he deserved this trouble by wearing the hoodie but I'm stating why I believe 'suspicion' arose.


YES BLACK KID PLUS HOODY = SUSPICION.
That is WHY it is racism! A white kid in a hoody would have looked completely innocent. THAT IS THE POINT.

I wear hoodies on a daily basis. In fact it is my clothing of choice and guess what I am also African American and like to wear the hood up! This is all so upsetting for me I can't even tell you.

50 you didn't address ANY of my last points. Even if Zimmerman's actions had nothing to do with race WHICH THEY DID the way the case was handled did! How can you even argue against that?

Why do I even bother when you are someone over the age of 5 who asked why people can't celebrate BEING WHITE! Not being Irish, not being German or Lithuanian BUT BEING WHITE. How about we start celebrating BEING heterosexual and being not disabled!? I mean its not fair that we can't when they have stupid gay pride parades!

Something else you can't wrap your minds around, racism is hardly ever conscious! Don't you people understand the nature of prejudice at all? You are completely clueless. Can we all just take a field trip to our local library, take out a sociology book and READ?

Space Suicide
04-03-2012, 09:13 PM
YES BLACK KID PLUS HOODY = SUSPICION.
That is WHY it is racism! A white kid in a hoody would have looked completely innocent. THAT IS THE POINT.

Did I say that was the reason? Stop saying something I didn't. I didn't name race in any shape or form when it comes to that. I'm talking ANY anon criminal I've seen videos of.


I think I've changed my tune.

I just took a picture of this guy (http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l215/giphangster/kidhoodie.jpg) walking around my neighborhood. I'm pretty sure he's up to no good. I'm going to follow him and confront him, because I don't like the look of him. Plus, he's got some M&Ms in his hand, and I don't know what the hell that's all about, but it can't be good news. I heard of a murderer last week who had M&Ms in his pockets (apparently he had to keep his blood sugar up; murder will do that to you) so it made me extra suspicious. I'll report back as soon as I find out anything.

You're missing my point to be sarcastic. I'm not in any shape or form of being on the side of Mr. Zimmerman of this but all I'm stating is a stereotype I know of when I come to hoodies. in my area anyways.

theruiner
04-03-2012, 09:15 PM
^^I actually wasn't directing that at you. I didn't read your follow up post until AFTER I had posted that. Though I still think my point stands that stereotyping people based on the clothing they wear is absurd, and anyone who finds someone suspicious because they're wearing a certain type of jacket is a moron. I'm not including you in that because I know you're just trying to point out the way other people are seeing it, not that you yourself have a problem with hoodies.

Space Suicide
04-03-2012, 09:17 PM
That's utterly absurd. Ski masks are one thing, because most people don't just wear ski masks when they're not, you know, skiing. But hoodies are a type of jacket. And anyone who finds it suspicious that someone was wearing a certain type of jacket needs to get their head examined (I'm not talking about you, Space Suicide...I know you're not saying you personally find it suspicious).

Good because I'm not.

As for the topic, I'm going with public opinion, myself, that I have seen in various videos and surveillance. Stuff like this, I'm not saying I agree with it -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMHkXF7bv1A

By the way, don't take me out of context because of this video either.

littlemonkey613
04-03-2012, 09:23 PM
Did I say that was the reason? Stop saying something I didn't. I didn't name race in any shape or form when it comes to that. I'm talking ANY anon criminal I've seen videos of.




I was saying MY reasoning! I know you were only addressing the hoody aspect and I was saying why it is BULLSHIT to separate the two.

theruiner
04-03-2012, 09:24 PM
Even if it is a trend among robbers to wear hoodies, they are the vast, VAST minority of people who wear them. Most people wear hoodies- millions and millions of them- because they like the style and/or it keeps them warm and/or for when it rains. So, again, this is a case of some people stereotyping an entire group based on a small, small, tiny minority of people.

And NONE of that changes the fact that George Zimmerman shouldn't have been following Trayvon, ESPECIALLY NOT WITH A GUN. Period. So we have a guy following someone because they were African American or they were wearing a hoodie or he was looking around (a guy in a hoodie looking around in MY neighborhood?! Not on my watch, bub!) Even if he was doing something suspicious, Zimmerman did all the wrong things here. And he was following- and ended up shooting- a kid who was walking home to watch a basketball game with his dad. If he had just called the cops with his (most likely stupid, based on the 50 other calls he made to law enforcement earlier in the year over things that weren't necessary) assumptions, none of this would have happened.

Space Suicide
04-03-2012, 09:26 PM
I was saying MY reasoning! I know you were only addressing the hoody aspect and I was saying why it is BULLSHIT to separate the two.

The way it came off threw me off. Apologies.


Even if it is a trend among robbers to wear hoodies, they are the vast, VAST minority of people who wear them. Most people wear hoodies- millions and millions of them- because they like the style and/or it keeps them warm and/or for when it rains. So, again, this is a case of some people stereotyping an entire group based on a small, small, tiny minority of people.

I don't agree with it but it is a common thing people judge on, even if it is falsely.

I'm a perp. I wore one this morning.

littlemonkey613
04-03-2012, 09:28 PM
We all know there are fucking reasons for people thinking a hoody made him more suspicious, we are not saying there aren't, seeing as THAT IS OUR POINT. Zimmerman is full of prejudice which is inherently irrational! If anything this hoody argument proves it! All prejiduce has a "reason" for existing as do all stigmas. We know that! All you are doing is re inforcing the idea that Zimmerman was irrational with prejudice because even if it was just the hoody WHICH IT WASN'T that is still thought based in prejudice and preconceived nonsense!

50 Volt Phantom
04-03-2012, 09:39 PM
Ruiner, your post with the little kid was fucking stupid, and you know it was.

Littlemonkey, you're immediate response of "black plus hoodie = suspicious" in response to a post that said absolutely NOTHING about race completely exposed you and is exactly why I could give a shit less about responding to your points. You see racism because you seek it out even when it is explicitly not there.

littlemonkey613
04-03-2012, 09:40 PM
I was making a POINT. And no! I do not ask for racism do you think I want this? Really? Really? YOU ASKED WHY PEOPLE CANT CELEBRATE BEING WHITE. And you think YOU are more informed about how much racism actually exists?

Way to cop out of my best points made on here as well, you still haven't addressed them. I don't refuse to address anything you say. Coward. Go ahead and try to argue against what I said before concerning white privilege. It will be kind of hard to argue against fact though.

50 Volt Phantom
04-03-2012, 09:43 PM
Ya, you're point was bullshit, a white person in a hoodie in that situation would have been just as suspicious to me. Plus Zimmerman didn't seem to even be sure the kid was black until he got closer, how does that work into your little "point?"

littlemonkey613
04-03-2012, 09:46 PM
No, not that , argue against THIS:
"White is not skin color! It is a socially constructed pan ethnic group in which its members share ONE thing in common. Their dun dun dun! PRIVILEGE over minorities. In the same way brown people and black people of different cultures and backgrounds have NOTHING in common except dun dun dun their oppression at the hands of the white majority. But your're right, its not fair that white people cannot come together and celebrate the thing they share in common, especially when its something so wonderful. :D The only thing that even makes them a group is the fact that they have power. You can go and celebrate that all you want. Groups that weren't considered white in the past joined your awesome club when society granted them the privileges of the majority. But you're right, its not inherently racist to celebrate this. Acknowledging reality does not create that reality."

I refuse to move on until you admit it is idiotic and inherently racist to celebrate being white, just as its inherently ableist to celebrate being not disabled, and inherently homophobic to celebrate the fact that you are heterosexual. We cannot even have a conversation about race on this board while you refuse to acknowledge this reality. It's like talking to a junior high student.

theruiner
04-03-2012, 09:47 PM
Well, we know 50 Volt stereotypes people. That's a shock.



Ruiner, your post with the little kid was fucking stupid, and you know it was.Not even a tiny bit. If anything, it proves that stereotyping people based on the jacket they wear is incredibly stupid, and so are the people who make those assumptions.

Let me get this straight-

Assuming someone is a criminal because they're African-American because a tiny, tiny percentage of people with the same skin color have committed crimes=racist

Assuming someone is a criminal because they're wearing a hoodie because a tiny, tiny percentage of people who wear hoodies have committed a crime wearing them=perfectly fine.

Wow. Glad we got that sorted out.

50 Volt Phantom
04-03-2012, 09:48 PM
Ya, not going to happen, especially after your response to Suicide.

littlemonkey613
04-03-2012, 09:51 PM
Ya, not going to happen, especially after your response to Suicide.

Are you kidding? There is NOTHING that you have said that would keep me from answering you and there is nothing you can say that would make me refuse to have discourse with you.

I think its safe to say you literally can't argue against my point. I have a sneaking suspicion it is because everything I stated above is factual but I'm not sure...
Care to prove me wrong with words or will you continue to act like a child?

50 Volt Phantom
04-03-2012, 09:52 PM
Well, we know 50 Volt stereotypes people. That's a shock.


Not even a tiny bit. If anything, it proves that stereotyping people based on the jacket they wear is incredibly stupid, and so are the people who make those assumptions.
All it proves is that comparing a child to an out of place 17 year old kid in a neighborhood with a history of robberies at night is absolutely stupid, especially considering the negative connotation that wearing a hood up carries.

theruiner
04-03-2012, 09:53 PM
Are you kidding? There is NOTHING that you have said that would keep me from answering you and there is nothing you can say that would make me refuse to have discourse with you.

I think its safe to say you literally can't argue against my point. I have a sneaking suspicion it is because everything I stated above is factual but I'm not sure...
Care to prove me wrong with words or will you continue to act like a child?

You know, as frustrating as this is, I wouldn't worry too much about it. 50 Volt has made it quite clear where he stands. We don't even have to say anything, and his words in this thread will speak for themselves. There is no logic to be found here, no matter how many different ways we make the same point.

50 Volt Phantom
04-03-2012, 09:54 PM
Are you kidding? There is NOTHING that you have said that would keep me from answering you and there is nothing you can say that would make me refuse to have discourse with you.

I think its safe to say you literally can't argue against my point. I have a sneaking suspicion it is because everything I stated above is factual but I'm not sure...
Care to prove me wrong with words or will you continue to act like a child?
Whoopety doo to you, I know when it's better to not waste my time. Like I said, you were exposed as far as I'm concerned. You'll continue to see racism everywhere because you can't help but find it.

littlemonkey613
04-03-2012, 09:56 PM
Whoopety doo to you, I know when it's better to not waste my time. Like I said, you were exposed as far as I'm concerned. You'll continue to see racism everywhere because you can't help but find it.

So you didn't even read what I said? 50, YOU ASKED WHY PEOPLE CANT CELEBRATE BEING WHITE.

You don't think maybe there is a better chance that you are ignorant of racism, since you were stupid enough to ask that?

You don't think someone who asks why men can't celebrate being men would be a tad ignorant of the reality of sexism?

50 Volt Phantom
04-03-2012, 10:03 PM
Ya, in a society where a group like La Raza or NAACP can exist without complaint, such a group that might be associated with people of white skin color would be considered racist right off the bat. Why is it that Spanish speakers and black people can have a group and it be socially acceptable but not white people? That in itself is racism as far as I'm concerned. I have no problem with La Raza and the NAACP existing, where I have a problem is the uproar that occurs when similar groups are considered for representing lighter skinned people, like Europeans.

50 Volt Phantom
04-03-2012, 10:06 PM
Let me get this straight-

Assuming someone is a criminal because they're African-American because a tiny, tiny percentage of people with the same skin color have committed crimes=racist

Assuming someone is a criminal because they're wearing a hoodie because a tiny, tiny percentage of people who wear hoodies have committed a crime wearing them=perfectly fine.

Wow. Glad we got that sorted out.
It's not perfectly fine, it's just not at all shocking. White, black, brown, whatever, a lot of people commit crimes wearing hoodies to hide their identity or to be intimidating.

I know you're really trying to sell this stance hard, but I have a feeling that you have similar subconscious reactions to situations in which someone wearing a hoodie might be doing something unusual.

littlemonkey613
04-03-2012, 10:09 PM
Ya, in a society where a group like La Raza or NAACP can exist without complaint, such a group that might be associated with people of white skin color would be considered racist right off the bat. Why is it that Spanish speakers and black people can have a group and it be socially acceptable but not white people? That in itself is racism as far as I'm concerned. I have no problem with La Raza and the NAACP existing, where I have a problem is the uproar that occurs when similar groups are considered for representing lighter skinned people, like Europeans.

Okay. Good your speaking to me again. :)
Dude, people with white skin color can have groups, you can have an Irish group, you can have a Dutch group, you can have a golf and business group that happens to be all white. However, as I explained earlier the ONLY thing that unites white people of different backgrounds is their privilege and station of authority within society over minority groups. The sole purpose of a "black group" is to gain power in a society which sees you as a second class citizen. This is why women's groups exist and the like.


If you were to have a group "celebrating whiteness" it would LITERALLY mean you are celebrating your position in society as being the oppressor because it is the only thing that all whites have in common.......Just as the only reason black groups exist is because the individuals are united under their oppression....

Now if you still disagree, are you prepared to defend that if people with disabilities are allowed to group up and have pride over it, then people should be able to have pride specifically over not being disabled?

That is what a white group inherently would be...because the only thing that makes you white is the fact that you are in your position of societal advantage in opposition to all others....You would be celebrating NOT being a minority.

50 Volt Phantom
04-03-2012, 10:10 PM
So you didn't even read what I said? 50, YOU ASKED WHY PEOPLE CANT CELEBRATE BEING WHITE.

You don't think maybe there is a better chance that you are ignorant of racism, since you were stupid enough to ask that?

You don't think someone who asks why men can't celebrate being men would be a tad ignorant of the reality of sexism?
I think men and women should be able to celebrate their specific sex, what in the hell is wrong with that?

littlemonkey613
04-03-2012, 10:14 PM
I think men and women should be able to celebrate their specific sex, what in the hell is wrong with that?


Men have been celebrating being men for all of human history........do I need to paint you a picture of the results? Anyways my above post explains so just replace white with the gender which oppresses the most...

50 Volt Phantom
04-03-2012, 10:16 PM
Okay. Good your speaking to me again. :)
Dude, people with white skin color can have groups, you can have an Irish group, you can have a Dutch group, you can have a golf and business group that happens to be all white. However, as I explained earlier the ONLY thing that unites white people of different backgrounds is their privilege and station of authority within society over minority groups. The sole purpose of a "black group" is to gain power in a society which sees you as a second class citizen. This is why women's groups exist and the like.


If you were to have a group "celebrating whiteness" it would LITERALLY mean you are celebrating your position in society as being the oppressor because it is the only thing that all whites have in common.......Just as the only reason black groups exist is because the individuals are united under their oppression....

Now if you still disagree, are you prepared to defend that if people with disabilities are allowed to group up and have pride over it, then people should be able to have pride over not being disabled?
See I disagree with your stance of all white people having privilege in common and all black people having oppression in common. This is why we never move forward, I mean as much as I dislike the guy's policies, America did elect a black president, I think we can move on from this privilege-oppressed system, because as long as you decide that it's there it's there. I personally don't see anyone, no matter sex or skin color as second class, and that's exactly why I disagree with your attitude on the subject.

50 Volt Phantom
04-03-2012, 10:19 PM
Men have been celebrating being men for all of human history........do I need to paint you a picture of the results? Anyways my above post explains so just replace white with gender...
I take a similar stance here as I do with race I guess, both should be able to celebrate presently, discouraging one over the other just keeps sexism alive in my opinion.

littlemonkey613
04-03-2012, 10:30 PM
See I disagree with your stance of all white people having privilege in common and all black people having oppression in common. This is why we never move forward, I mean as much as I dislike the guy's policies, America did elect a black president, I think we can move on from this privilege-oppressed system, because as long as you decide that it's there it's there. I personally don't see anyone, no matter sex or skin color as second class, and that's exactly why I disagree with your attitude on the subject.

See this is just unfair. If what you are saying is true, then that means the overt sexism and racism I have experienced my entire life is all my imagination. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the reason you haven't experienced discrimination is because you are the majority on many fronts?

Obama is an EXCEPTION, not the rule.

So you mean to tell me that I am not verbally harassed and hollered at every time I go to school by men driving by? Do you mean to tell me that last week a car full of men didn't come up to me 3 times and tell me to get in their car? Do you mean to tell me that I didn't pull a guy trying to drunkenly hump my friend last month? Do you mean to tell me that I haven't been called slut and hoe for simply walking outside dozens of times since I hit puberty? Do you mean to tell me that people aren't constantly saying "you act so white for a black girl" for years and years? Do you mean to tell me that when my dad got in a car accident last year with me in the car that I didn't hear the lady who hit us say "What is someone like you even doing over here?" Do you mean to tell me that complementarianism is not a fast moving and huge movement across the U.S.? Do you mean to tell me that women now make up half of the government?


You are mistaken. To ignore the problem makes the problem worse.
You keep forgetting that the existence of white and black IS an oppressive - oppressed system inherently! Race is not ethnicity! You are expressing a sentiment that says that black people and white people both happen to exist and the white people just happened to oppress the other in recent history. This is incredible seeing as black and white was constructed IN ORDER TO keep power away from those not deemed worthy! Don't you understand? White and black are social constructs BASED on a distribution of power. It is not a natural divide!

No, I do not decide if its there, because I didn't use to be all that aware of my own subjugation. It exists whether I noticed it or not, because I can give you examples in retrospect...unless you want to argue that the things I tell you didn't actually happened I suggest you stop trying to argue that I am the one keeping those privileges alive.

I am not "deciding" something is there. I am experiencing something and then acknowledging that it happened.....THATS IT.

I'll take your advice though. Next time I get a best friend who tells me that wives should submit to their husbands I'll just plug my ears and then it will cease to exist!

Thats all fine and dandy that YOU don't see or treat people as second class but you do not make up the freaking world or this freaking country END OF STORY. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist! This is all to real for some people and I think you should listen to us. I mean jesus, if someone who was deaf was telling me about ableism and how they are treated as second class a lot of the time I wouldn't be like you and say "ugh by complaining you are keeping up the divide"......

chris
04-03-2012, 11:26 PM
Do you think it was fine that Zimmerman disobeyed the police order not to follow him? Can you also stop referring to the crimes in the neighborhood as robberies? They were burglaries and there is a difference.

Conan The Barbarian
04-03-2012, 11:37 PM
How many states currently have this law?

littlemonkey613
04-03-2012, 11:46 PM
24 currently. Wow I had no idea it was that many. How troubling.

Conan The Barbarian
04-03-2012, 11:51 PM
Then I think it is time for everyone in those 24 states to start putting in effort to get those laws erased.

I am more shocked about this killing that another kid got murdered. I am shocked that this law pretty much gives anyone a free ride when it comes to killing.

a hate driven crime, maybe. But the media is giving this case the wrong kind of attention. Only way to justify all the victims, is to start taking on getting these laws out.

littlemonkey613
04-03-2012, 11:53 PM
More attention needs to be given to the laws and gun control, the topic that NO ONE wants to touch. I'm so disapointed that the Democrats refuse to ever bring this issue up. How many people have to be killed by these things for us to actually create sensible gun regulation?

Conan The Barbarian
04-03-2012, 11:58 PM
Its the season of elections, so dems wont touch issues like guns because those who believe in the amendment will flock to the wrong side. I mean, I dont blame them as I really dont want someone like Santorum or Mitt Romney take office.

Jinsai
04-04-2012, 01:31 AM
Its the season of elections, so dems wont touch issues like guns because those who believe in the amendment will flock to the wrong side. I mean, I dont blame them as I really dont want someone like Santorum or Mitt Romney take office.

I'm fairly certain that the hardcore 2nd amendment people already believe the democrats want to take their guns away, and they already flock to the right when it comes to who they vote for.

chris
04-04-2012, 01:35 AM
24 currently. Wow I had no idea it was that many. How troubling.
It appears to have been one of the many "model laws" developed at least in part by the conservative group ALEC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council), which then farms the bills out to state legislators almost verbatim. It's hypocrisy that the party of "states' rights" would allow its local legislation to be churned out by a nation-wide lobbying firm.

How ALEC took Florida's License to Kill law national (http://www.thenation.com/blog/166978/how-alec-took-floridas-license-kill-law-national)

Space Suicide
04-04-2012, 09:22 AM
I'm fairly certain that the hardcore 2nd amendment people already believe the democrats want to take their guns away, and they already flock to the right when it comes to who they vote for.

Yeah! People in 'Mericuh gotta have yer guns in your household. Just gotta.

sweeterthan
04-04-2012, 11:31 AM
Yeah! People in 'Mericuh gotta have yer guns in your household. Just gotta.
especially when those hooded folks are walking around in the rain.

Seriously, the hoodie defense for Zimmerman is just fucking stupid. Ask Geraldo.

Dra508
04-04-2012, 06:07 PM
This is why I find this all fucked up. Because young black men have to still say this and be aware like this. It's a fucking crying shame.

http://ideas.time.com/2012/03/21/how-to-talk-to-young-black-boys-about-trayvon-martin/?iid=op-main-feature

theruiner
04-04-2012, 07:30 PM
By pointing out that racism exists, you're only propagating further racism!!! /sarcasm

*rolls eyes into back of head*

littlemonkey613
04-04-2012, 08:48 PM
^ hahahahaa
I literally cannot believe that someone could think centuries of social construction, prejudice and bigoted culture can go away in a matter of decades.
Idk how the fuck one walks outside, turns on a TV or opens a newspaper in this country and goes "inequality? I just don't see it." The only excuse is if your in a fucking coma.

50 Volt Phantom
04-04-2012, 09:14 PM
First of all, if anyone really tried to take guns away from people in this country this whole nation would tear apart. Second of all, you all can be shocked that such laws as Castle Doctrine and "stand you ground" exist, but I for one am not going to bend over and just take it if someone is threatening me or enters my home. I am lucky enough to live in a state with the Castle Doctrine, and if you come into my home unwelcomed I will shoot you after a verbal warning no matter your attire, race, or sex.

Chris, he should have followed the dispatchers insistence that he stop, but I understand the mindset of enough is enough that he seemed to have had at the moment. I lived in a neighborhood and an apartment complex that had a spree of armed robberies, break ins, and at least one blatant murder, and it wasn't until the neighbors really stepped up their alertness, and made it clear that actions have consequences at both locations that the crime died down. Living in the south I've also felt the uncomfortableness, the coldness, and the unwelcomeness of being white on numerous occasions, I've been in stores where no clerk would even acknowledge my existence, I've been in restaurants where I basically just left because the employees and patrons made it too uncomfortable for me, I happened to look at an apartment in apparently the wrong neighborhood as a group ran at my car and were yelling "get the fuck out of here whitey" and "cracker" at me, I've had guys walk up to my car and yell at me and act like they're pulling a gun on me, so I have had a taste of race related ridiculousness.

You all can laugh and jerk each other off about how funny the hoodie defense thing is and how staying in the privileged vs. oppressed mindset only continues racial division all you want, if you're not even willing to entertain the idea that someone with a hoodie on appears more suspicious then someone that doesn't just by the nature of covering their face then continuing this conversation is basically a waste of time. Funny, that's really how most discussions with the circle jerk here are.

50 Volt Phantom
04-04-2012, 09:15 PM
^ hahahahaa
I literally cannot believe that someone could think centuries of social construction, prejudice and bigoted culture can go away in a matter of decades.
It definitely can't with people in your mindset around.

littlemonkey613
04-04-2012, 09:33 PM
^You have yet to address my point about the nature of white-black oppression. All you keep saying is its not true just because.....
Answer me this then, what makes you white besides your white privilege in this society?
You can't say its being of European decent because this has never been the marker (Italians and such weren't seen as white until they had white privelage), you can't say its your skin color because my latina family is very pale.

What makes you white is that you are not a minority. Do you know what that means? You cannot be considered a minority if you are not subjugated systematically...so you figure out the rest. Being apart of the majority IMPLIES being an oppressor, just as I as a heterosexual can articulate ways in which I have helped uphold hetereonormalcy and been an agent of oppression, you whether you want to admit it or not have benefited from white privilege and in turn been an agent yourself.

Your experiences with racism are isolated incidences and horrible ones at that. Do you understand the difference between that and oppression that is systematic?

Are you sure you have no problem with sociology? Because you have yet to articulate that you understand the nature of race, and I don't mean in terms of experiences, I mean you don't understand how race is socially constructed and what that construction is based on, or how it is upheld...

EDIT: This quote is all to relevant.
"The silences and denials surrounding privilege are the key political tool here. They keep the thinking about equality or equity incomplete, protecting unearned advantage and conferred dominance by making these subject taboo. Most talk by whites about equal opportunity seems to me now to be about equal opportunity to try to get into a position of dominance while denying that systems of dominance exist." - Peggy McIntosh

And something else lovely:
"Color-blind racism has crystallized as the dominant racial ideology of the United States. Whites no longer need to utter the ugly racial epithets of the past, claim God made whites superior, or argue that minorities are inferior biological beings in order to keep them in a subordinated position. Instead, whites chastise minorities in a color-blind way and, by default, defend their racial privilege in a “now you see it, now you don’t fashion.” Color-blind racism is thus a formidable weapon to maintain white privilege."

And finally an actual study:
groups.psych.northwestern.edu/spcl/.../colorblind_final_000.pdf
"Results suggested that, relative to the multicultural perspective, the color-blind perspective generated
greater racial attitude bias measured both explicitly and on the more unobtrusive reaction time measure. " Yeah...

chris
04-05-2012, 12:20 AM
First of all, if anyone really tried to take guns away from people in this country this whole nation would tear apart.
No one has said that, stop putting words into people’s mouths. You’re using the slippery slope argument to create fear, which is what conservatives do time and again.

if you come into my home unwelcomed I will shoot you
Trayvon didn’t come into Zimmerman’s house, he was out on the street, where he had a right to be. I know that you know that, so the only conclusion I can come to is that you’re spreading disinformation purposely.

continuing this conversation is basically a waste of time.
Agreed. Someone presents a fact, you counter with your opinion. You’re not the first douche to troll ETS with your blind ideology, and I’m sure you won’t be the last. Just keep shilling the party line, I’m done wasting time replying to your bullshit.

Tiz
04-05-2012, 03:29 AM
You all can laugh and jerk each other off about how funny the hoodie defense thing is and how staying in the privileged vs. oppressed mindset only continues racial division all you want, if you're not even willing to entertain the idea that someone with a hoodie on appears more suspicious then someone that doesn't just by the nature of covering their face then continuing this conversation is basically a waste of time. Funny, that's really how most discussions with the circle jerk here are.

The hoodie argument isn't just a facile argument. It's fucking stupid.

Aren't we on a forum dedicated to a band that helped perpetuate the stereotype of donning piercings, leather, tattoos, studded boots, and other things that would intimidate the average person?

Cat Mom
04-05-2012, 09:32 AM
It was RAINING outside, for Christ sake. I put my hood up over my head when it's raining all the time! Seriously! Doesn't most everybody? Unless you have an umbrella?

Actually, the fact that it was raining and this kid was "walking around" in rain was what riled Zimmerman. He mentions it in his call.

Trust me, the hoodie will mean ZERO to a grand jury when determining if Zimmerman should be charged with manslaughter. Zimmerman reported his suspicion, the police told him to do nothing and wait for the police at the gate. Zimmerman ignored the police and made the first move of aggression by following the victim.

It's been made pretty clear via various reports that this is not a "bad neighborhood" but is, instead, a fairly nice, gated community. The people who live in the community and in the village where it occurred have been desperately trying to convey to the public, via the media, that this is not a racist community full of crime but is, instead, a somewhat integrated, tolerant, middle class community, and that one overzealous riled-up confused Zimmerman does not represent the entire community or the nature of the crime status. NO community is exempt from occasional burglaries. Let's not automatically assume that the community in question is dangerous gang territory where the police never respond and the citizens decide to take the law into their own hands; the community speaking to the media is making it clear that crime was not a big issue, and this was only Zimmerman's issue.

The reason there are protesters down there isn't related to the community or an overall sense of racism in America; it's because the acting police chief (who I guess happens to be black) refused to file manslaughter charges. But, now that I am aware of this Florida "Stand Your Ground" law, I understand why Zimmerman has not yet been arrested: The law has to be tested via case law before law enforcement even knows how to use it. Or how not use it. Everybody's covering their asses.

chris
04-05-2012, 02:50 PM
Reports of justifiable homicides tripled after the law went into effect, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. Last year, twice a week, on average, someone's killing was considered warranted. The Times searched major Florida newspapers and found at least 93 cases in the past five years in which the new law was a factor. Those are just the confrontations that made the papers. In 57 of them, those who used force were either not charged with a crime or the charges were dropped by prosecutors or dismissed by a judge before trial. Seven other defendants were acquitted. The use of force resulted in 65 deaths.

Miami's police chief made a prediction shortly before the law took effect: "Whether it's trick-or-treaters or kids playing in the yard of someone who doesn't want them there or some drunk guy stumbling into the wrong house,'' Chief John Timoney told the New York Times, "you're encouraging people to possibly use deadly physical force where it shouldn't be used.'' “They’re basically giving citizens more rights to use deadly force than we give police officers, and with less review,” said Paul Logli, former president of the National District Attorneys Association.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/article1128317.ece

Deus Ex Machina
04-05-2012, 02:59 PM
Good article on Gawker:

http://gawker.com/5899322/the-dog-whistle-has-sounded-how-the-right-talks-about-thugs-like-trayvon-martin (http://gawker.com/5899322/the-dog-whistle-has-sounded-how-the-right-talks-about-thugs-like-trayvon-martin)


They make repeated references to (http://wonkette.com/403583/gop-gals-make-hilarious-obama-welfare-coupons) Obama (http://wonkette.com/406562/406562) and (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/06/doug-fox-north-carolina-o_n_197632.html) watermelons (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1210/The_watermelon_thing.html). They talk about "strapping young bucks" with t-bone steaks (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/10/innocent-mistakes/). Then, when black or liberal commentators denounce those statements, conservative pundits label them as the racists. After all, you'd have to be a racist to think there was racist commentary there; the only people who think about racism are racists. You have to be importing your own racial hangups to the exchange: you altered the outcome of the reaction when your gaze introduced a racial force to the social reaction.

theruiner
04-05-2012, 07:37 PM
^^
Yeah, this whole "he looks like a thug" thing is the epitome of, if not outright racism, then, at the very least, horrible stereotyping. It's people who are obviously completely out of touch with the young, and don't understand that, you know, it's just a fucking style. A lot of young people wear baggy pants. A lot of young people act obnoxious (he flipped off the camera in a picture! Oh no, what a thug!) Honestly, he was a teenager. Jesus Christ, are kids not allowed to be kids now? They have to be demonized? Because he was wearing a certain type of jacket or baggy pants or he possibly *GASP* used marijuana (like a lot of people do, across all races, ages and backgrounds) that suddenly he was just a "thug"? You might as well wear a shirt that says "I'm completely out of touch." God, did I hop in a time machine and travel back to 1992? I thought people had figured this out by now.


But this is the state of right-wing racism in America: it exists only on its moment of detection. Until then, it's merely an amorphous cloud of words. The people who are targeted by it are the real racists, because they have the insufferable gall to notice it and then divisively, unrepentantly point it out. They are malcontents operating without the privilege to speak freely.EXACTLY.

Cat Mom
04-05-2012, 09:23 PM
I'm just not buying the hoodie thing. it's like people think it's called a "hoodie" because only people in the "hood" wear them. They sell fucking hoodies at RAVINIA FESTIVAL (http://www.ravinia.org/RaviniaGifts.aspx) for $60.00, and millionaires are wearing the fucking things because it suddenly got chilly and it's outdoors and the gift shop sells them. I have about 8 of them because I keep forgetting to bring a sweater. And this is down the street from Billy Fucking Corgan, so trust me this ain't no 'hood. There are about 15 hoodies in my closet right now, and I'm shopping for fucking yachts.

The problem was that it was dark and RAINING and this Zimmerman dude looks out the window, like nosy neighborhood snitch Mrs. Kravitz on Bewitched

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLC1b8nUF74

and Zimmerman says "hey, what's that kid doing walking around in the rain??? that's very suspicious! I'd better report this! Kids walking around in the rain have no business walking around in the rain, and he's probably a rapist or a murderer or a burglar, or maybe he left his garage door open! (gasp) And I took some criminal law classes! And I dream of being a judge, someday! Once I get my G.E.D. And move out of my dad's basement. I know this Stand Your Ground law allows me to go shoot a 6-year-old aiming an ice cream cone at me, so no worries, there! I'd better go be the arm of the law, I have a gun, I'm like fucking Gunsmoke, man!"

Meanwhile, this Trayvon kid is on the phone with his girlfriend, freaking out, just trying to get home to give his brother a bag of Skittles. "I think I'm being followed." If some fat ass dude is following you, what are you gonna do?

"Why, howdy! Nice to meet you! I'm so glad you are following me, I was so worried, walking around in the rain, I was hoping for an escort! I'm sure that is why you are following me, kind man with suspicious look on your face. I, too, would be suspicious if i saw a tall negro in the rain, ha ha ha. But, fear not, my fat white friend, for I come to deliver Skittles to my brother! Here, let us shake hands and become friends, like Vulcans! Please allow me to offer you some Skittles. No no, do not fear, I do not reach into my pocket for a weapon, but only do so in peace. For I am like Grasshopper on Kung Fu! When you can take the Skittles from my hand, it is time for me to go!"

Bottom line: If that Trayvon kid had a gun, too, he'd have shot Zimmerman's ass for threatening him by following him, and now we'd be discussing whether or not Martin should be in jail, and Zimmerman would be dead.

Maybe this is what this whole country needs: Everybody has guns, and it's all like the O.K. Fucking Corral.

50 Volt Phantom
04-05-2012, 09:24 PM
This will be my last post in this discussion...

Chris, you're kidding yourself if you don't think the end objective of leftist gun control regulations is the total elimination of gun ownership, it is akin to Obamacare being the first step towards the end objective of single payer healthcare, which Obama was open about wanting before he became a Presidential candidate. The fact is that if the current administration could remove every private citizen's guns tomorrow knowing there wouldn't be drastic repercussions I'm sure they would.

My point about protecting my home is in regards to the "awful" stand your ground/castle doctrine laws, if someone threatened me on the street I would approach the situation in a similar way to someone coming into my home. Again, there are consequences for actions.

Littlemonkey, I will not respond to you because there is simply nothing to say, I disagree with your entire outlook, period. I am not going to just declare myself an oppressor because some mindset says I should, your way of thinking as far as I'm concerned keeps racism alive, and on that point, your position on color-blind racism basically sets up a situation where no matter what I think, say, or do to someone like you I am a racist. How can equality be gained when people like yourself simply define ways in which "whites" must be racist now. "Oh hey, lots of people aren't saying racist things anymore, it's probably because they just think them now, bunch of racists!"

Here's where I stand on this issue. Trayvon Martin walked through a neighborhood at night that had suffered some crime issues, Zimmerman spots him and becomes a little overzealous about his neighborhood watch standing and probably experiences a sense of "I've got to check this out and not sit idly by." I believe he chose unwisely to not listen to dispatchers requests to not follow Martin, but I do believe that as he got closer Martin caused an altercation and Zimmerman shot him in self defense or in a panicked heat of the moment mistake. I do not believe that there was one bit of racism in the matter, as Zimmerman clearly wasn't sure if Martin was black until he got closer, and I also believe that the people that claim hoodies don't initiate a negative response of sorts amongst the general populace are fooling themselves. Furthermore, even if this went to trial, Zimmerman is essentially guilty, his life is ruined, the media and almost all of you have already made up your minds, even if a jury found him innocent he would find no real peace at this point. The left took a situation that they felt they could exploit to stir up some racial division and push gun control questions back into the spotlight and along the way convicted Zimmerman for us.

Cat Mom
04-05-2012, 09:49 PM
I don't give a FLYING FUCK what anybody's "objective" is, it's not achievable with a Constitution that clearly backs it. Maybe you should go study LAW?

We are always gonna have guns, we are always gonna have abortions, we are always gonna have some form of socialized all kinds of shit (fucking MEDICARE is forced on you, whether you want it or not, and they take the deductible from your monthly social security payment, fuck what your want, and that's happened for a long time, so what's the fucking difference?). Republicans AND Democrats are all full of shit, and the two-party system is a fucking joke. So anybody pointing fingers at either party, or at this alleged "liberal vs. conservative" (note: THEY'RE ALL THE SAME, YOU IDIOTS) just prove what Plato said about Democracy being impossible because people are all too fucking stupid.

By the way: Littlemonkey is quoting textbook history views that anybody learns in any liberal arts college, particularly if you've ever taken classes in Lit Crit and American literature, slave literature, Marxist criticism, or American History, etc. This isn't stuff she's making up in her head or new liberal shit, this is shit that's been around for, like, 50 years and is standard college stuff. Ditto for other college stuff like the Feminist Perspective, Gender Studies, blah blah blah. I'm kinda yawning that we're even questioning this basic stuff, like we're all high school dropouts or something.

But, honestly, in my personal opinion, it's drift in this thread. This thread should really be about law, and the "Stand Your Ground" law in Florida, how it sucks, and how it affects everybody, not just black people. It's a stupid fucking law, way too broad, totally undefined.

littlemonkey613
04-05-2012, 09:55 PM
Bro bro bro. Having white privilege and being a racist are not the same thing......

I don't think you are a racist, you just don't acknowledge the privilege that you are granted in this country for being white, which is very problematic and makes my life harder because most white Americans share your views. To put it in more perspective, most minorities DONT share your views. So what does that tell you?

I mean are you even willing to admit that you experience privilege because you are a man? That's a start. This is not about guilt or blame, this is simply about acknowledging the nature of privilege and oppression so that we can fix what is obviously wrong.

Honestly think about it this way. If you admit white people are the current majority, you've already admitted that you experience white privilege. You see the term majority has never referred to the amount of people in a group. ;) It refers to their power over others in a society conscious or not. Which is why women are the "minority" even though there's more of us. Their status as a minority is the marker for their unequal systematic treatment.

Still no?

Cat Mom
04-05-2012, 11:31 PM
Women are the "minority" in business. That's all. Otherwise, we're only the minority because we allow ourselves to be the minority. But, that's another thread.

Can we at least attempt to stick to the FACTS in this case? The facts currently aren't totally known, but what we DO know are the details of this "Stand Your Ground" law in Florida. Can we maybe discuss that? Its holes? Its problems? The way the cops have to uphold it because their hands are tied their backs until somebody figures out wtf the law means? I mean, you know, logical arguments, vs. emotional arguments? Otherwise, this is just typical jaw-jacking bbs ca-ca. NO bbs EVER changed anybody's mind, as far as anybody knows. Why try?

I initially felt that this was an obvious case of racial discrimination, but now that I know that the acting police chief is black, that this Stand Your Ground law affects everyone, and that cops and the judicial system are stuck trying to deal with this law, I believe it's much more complicated than race (or a hoodie): this law gives people unlimited ability to shoot whomever they please, fabricate a motive and "evidence" of said motive, and get away with it. You should ALL be worried: it could affect you, too.

Iran_Ed
04-06-2012, 12:55 AM
I was talking to my mother last week, and all of a sudden she blurts out don't ever wear a hoodie. She said this in her most serious tone. I understand where she's coming from, but as a young black male I find it equal parts hilarious and sickening that I have to be aware of what I'm wearing and the message it could falsely portray about me. Its like when the say rape victims were asking for it. A woman in a short skirt is parading her body as a calling card. A black man in a hoodie is up to no good. I shouldn't have to worry that the clothes on my back could get me shot, but I do.

Cat Mom
04-06-2012, 01:44 AM
^^ If I could hit the "like" button 100 times for this, I would.

But, calmly remind your mother that only the MEDIA has blamed this on a hoodie. The media is really good at filling our heads with bullshit, these days.

I recommend that people read Mary Mitchell's column, for some other perspective: http://www.suntimes.com/news/mitchell/11719323-452/tangled-playwright-calls-out-president-barack-obama.html

Space Suicide
04-06-2012, 02:51 PM
Photos Debate (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-shooting-debate-over-photos-escalates-155103512.html?ref=type%3Aread%2Cuser%3Awiw0BcZlqO hO8Og6HSDGpdQxK8s&fb_action_ids=10150741178058081&fb_action_types=news.reads&fb_source=other_multiline&code=AQAumKjY1pYs072U7zFlBWvX8YCCf4LkkvWocfGYq9WDO MDzhurTcmZ3xRf73MIG9d3SPK0mUbcHHdD0DwSKkAKnc2heG1j t230idH0apwqITyTgg2dvTSI8Q7PQ93duzWwEVkpc9JlPsIrwT tqGLnYh4Jze_zHITkTC5_P5qrzEnDuvgzKIfRv1X6CqtSqTGP0 #_=_)

Hazekiah
04-07-2012, 12:20 AM
About a hundred different comments in this thread keep reminding me that I keep forgetting to post this here.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-eCNfIXxV8

Cat Mom
04-07-2012, 01:38 PM
^^ Wow, that's really good, thanks.

Cat Mom
04-10-2012, 10:16 AM
So, no grand jury; the special prosecutor is going to investigate, herself. Which I understand is pretty normal for her (grand jury not required in FL because this isn't a 1st degree murder case). Not necessarily bad news.

sweeterthan
04-10-2012, 05:43 PM
The circus continues. Zimmerman's lawyers say that they've lost touch with him and that they can no longer represent him. They also said they've never met him face to face and that Zimmerman's been in contact with Sean Hannity.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/04/10/exclusive-trayvon-martins-familys-attorney-responds-as-zimmermans-lawyers-withdraw-counsel/

Harry Seaward
04-11-2012, 02:47 PM
So when can we start the protests about this?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dENltReP1U

Deus Ex Machina
04-11-2012, 03:39 PM
So when can we start the protests about this?


You're free to protest whatever you'd like, but I don't think there's much of a connection. Did the police talk to the aggressors and then let them go? Did they fail to investigate the event or attempt to make an arrest?

Fixer808
04-11-2012, 05:15 PM
So when can we start the protests about this?
Any time you want, it's abhorrent, but it has absolutely no bearing on this case.

orestes
04-11-2012, 06:14 PM
Zimmerman in custody and to be charged today. (http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained#arrestcoming)

sweeterthan
04-11-2012, 06:23 PM
Zimmerman in custody and to be charged today. (http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained#arrestcoming)

I am so glad our justice system has determined that he should be charged with 2nd degree murder. This is a victory for all americans.

I do hope the Sanford Police department will be investigated as well.

orestes
04-11-2012, 06:30 PM
Because of this damn "Stand Your Ground" law, only a grand jury can charge him with first-degree murder and that is no longer an option.

Fixer808
04-11-2012, 07:03 PM
It's unlikely, but he could still get life.

50 Volt Phantom
04-11-2012, 09:37 PM
So when can we start the protests about this?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dENltReP1U

He's white, so it's what he deserved for being privileged. /sarcasm

You should know that no liberals actually care about what happens to someone like him, he doesn't fit their description of a true victim, had he been black and the other people white then there'd be a discussion. Of course they'd never admit it, gotta keep up that compassionate front.

theruiner
04-11-2012, 09:44 PM
^^False equivalencies abound.

littlemonkey613
04-11-2012, 09:47 PM
*facepalm. I outlined my points 5 billion times and you have yet to grasp what I was saying at all. Everyone can be a victim and everyone IS an oppressor. Stop spewing your hatred that is not founded in fact and historical or sociological reality. I already explained to you the nature of race and privilege (which enslaves ALL OF US btw) but you weren't having it because you just wouldn't! And somehow everything I say is wrong just because I say it.

I have no problem calling what happens in that video straight up horrible and disgusting. Notice how we don't get defensive when faced with obvious truths?

theruiner
04-11-2012, 09:49 PM
Let's not let facts and logic get in the way, here.

50 Volt Phantom
04-11-2012, 09:50 PM
Ya, go ahead and pretend I'm not right. Where's the outrage on the New Black Panthers stating either today or yesterday that they are building an army for killing? Where's the outrage that Holder won't investigate clear voter fraud but is going to make sure this circus show is thorough? Oh ya, the NBP's are probably a righteous group in many eyes here and who gives a fuck about voter fraud if it helps the Dems. Ya, like I said, pretend I'm not dead right about you guys. You've all clearly decided Zimmerman is guilty, so you know what, I hope the case exposes Trayvon's past and I hope Zimmerman walks away.

theruiner
04-11-2012, 09:53 PM
Now you're just clearly trolling.

orestes
04-11-2012, 09:55 PM
Funny how the only people spooking over an imminent race war are white people.

50 Volt Phantom
04-11-2012, 09:55 PM
Is that you're go to response when you know deep down I'm right? Come on, where's the tread about the NBP ruiner? Are you going to start one?

50 Volt Phantom
04-11-2012, 10:00 PM
*facepalm. I outlined my points 5 billion times and you have yet to grasp what I was saying at all. Everyone can be a victim and everyone IS an oppressor. Stop spewing your hatred that is not founded in fact and historical or sociological reality. I already explained to you the nature of race and privilege (which enslaves ALL OF US btw) but you weren't having it because you just wouldn't! And somehow everything I say is wrong just because I say it.

I have no problem calling what happens in that video straight up horrible and disgusting. Notice how we don't get defensive when faced with obvious truths?
The difference is if someone hadn't called attention to it and called you all out you wouldn't feel the need to even mention it, like I said, gotta keep the compassionate front alive.

And get over it, I'm not going to discuss your privilege noise.

theruiner
04-11-2012, 10:01 PM
Is that you're go to responseOnly when someone starts making irrational, inflammatory claims based on absolutely nothing in order to get a rise out of people.

50 Volt Phantom
04-11-2012, 10:02 PM
Oh you mean like all the race baiters on the left that saw nothing more than an opportunity in Trayvon's death?

littlemonkey613
04-11-2012, 10:39 PM
How the hell would something about Trayvon's past have to do with what happened? Even if you don't think this has anything to do with race I had no idea you were actually arguing that somehow Zimmerman was in the right. Its pretty norm for someone to get charged with at least manslaughter even when the other person's death was an accident. Zimmerman didn't even accidentally shoot Trayvon. You should be rooting for justice. I think its pretty gross to hope that Trayvon deserved to get killed. This is a dead kid we are talking about, and your letting your animosity towards liberals dilute that fact and dehumanize him.

Also you said before you aren't against sociology but the existence of privilege is pretty much the gravity of sociology.....you can't even take a sociology class in high school without getting the notion of privilege out of the way in the first chapter. You are the one being irrational because you keep putting sentiments in our mouths. Since when were we okay with someone getting hurt just because they happen to be in a majority? We are all part of some majority. These are overlapping and interconnected issues. Haha they aren't "black and white" so to speak. I just don't understand how you think centuries of race and gender inequality can go away in a matter of decades. It was also really annoying how you equated racism and privilege because they aren't the same at all....and I explained the difference quite clearly.

You refuse to talk about it? haha are your views on race your religion or something? What harm can come from addressing my points?

For the record, I am against the idea of hate crimes and people getting punished heavier for them, I just think its important to have a discussion about race when its an obvious problem. Still, I don't want and was never advocating for the racial aspect to affect the judge's decision in terms of a punishment.

50 Volt Phantom
04-11-2012, 10:44 PM
We don't know enough of the full story to know if Zimmerman was in the right or not, but again, you all have already made up your minds. If Zimmerman was defending himself, and as of now I believe he may have been, then he is in the right. But if you're all going to cheer for his guilt without the full picture, then I'll glady cheer for his innocence in the same manner.

littlemonkey613
04-11-2012, 10:51 PM
Well I mean it'd have to be some miraculous turn of events. I'll grant you there's no way to be certain of what happened however, even if Martin DID go after Zimmerman, self defense only applies to using the same amount of force to protect yourself. I really see no conceivable way in which someone twice as small, should have been killed when Zimmerman was the one who followed him and was the only one who was armed. Furthermore the reason everyone is all horrified by this is that it took SO LONG for Zimmerman to be arrested. This is not normal for this kind of case! The way this whole thing was handled was botched from the get go. When someone ends up dead, and that person was unarmed and a legal minor then the shooter is arrested at least on the grounds of manslaughter because self defense is just not conceivable. Then in court when he is being charged he can defend himself, which is what will happen now but my God that took an extreme amount of unprecedented effort just to get to the point we should have started at...

Elke
04-12-2012, 04:48 AM
We don't know enough of the full story to know if Zimmerman was in the right or not, but again, you all have already made up your minds. If Zimmerman was defending himself, and as of now I believe he may have been, then he is in the right. But if you're all going to cheer for his guilt without the full picture, then I'll glady cheer for his innocence in the same manner.

I think you're wilfully ignoring a couple of things:
1) when I feel threatened, I kinda tend to run away. I don't call the police, ask if I should follow the person who I deem threatening and then ignore their advice not to follow them. If I would do this, and get beaten up, I'd kind of feel like maybe I made the wrong call back when I ignored the cops. That I called. And asked what to do. Who said I shouldn't do what I then proceeded to do.
2) this isn't even about race, as much as it is about the idea that a percieved threat is enough to justifiably kill someone. Which brings me to three:
3) the Stand Your Ground law tries to make it redundant to even ask the question if Zimmerman's defending himself was justified. If someone feels threatened by nerdy white guys in college garb, they're allowed to shoot them in the head. However, oddly enough, most people don't. Because
4) yes, if you're wandering around a really rough neighbourhood where gangs are fighting turf wars, you might be justified in feeling threatened by a black guy in a hoodie. If you're a South African during Apartheid, I'm sure white people would seem equally threatening. That doesn't mean that every white guy's going to try to kill you and rape your wife and daughters. And it doesn't mean that every black guy everywhere, like say in a gated community, is a gang banger fighting a turf war. However, certain US media seem to impress the stereotype of the black gang member on its public's mind's eye. [Similarly, we Europeans suffer from Angry Arab Youth syndrome.]
5) skittles. Zimmerman was, for all we know, threatened with skittles.

Also, Martin's past? Completely irrelevant.
If the nerdy white bespectacled guy I feel threatened by is a released pedophile who hasn't relapsed but still has violent sexual fantasies about raping babies, my shooting him in the head is still not justified. Unless he was trying to abduct my baby with his skittles.

There. Yet another quasi-rational response to your irrational hatemongering. Now piss off, or give a reply that doesn't consist of populist bullshit and logical fallacies that would make Rush Limbaugh frown.

Cat Mom
04-12-2012, 04:22 PM
The Special Prosecutor, Angela Corey (watch her full statement here):

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/prosecutor-charges-zimmerman-with-second-degree-murder.php#47022673

50 Volt Phantom
04-12-2012, 07:44 PM
I think you're wilfully ignoring a couple of things:
1) when I feel threatened, I kinda tend to run away.
That's a real shocker.

Also, the irony of calling me an irrational hatemonger while you all sit idly by and let Sharpton, black Dems, and the NBP stir up racial tension and division across the country is pretty entertaining. I've proclaimed from the start this has nothing to do with race, and that his skin color would have had nothing to do with my analysis of the situation had I been in Zimmerman's shoes, I've been in enough situations to know that anyone is capable of any number of bad things.

Cat Mom
04-12-2012, 11:51 PM
The law does not look at race in this matter; and the legal system is not viewing this as a racial crime.

Can we just stick to a logical discussion, here, instead of all this irrational (not within the legal scope) incendiary arguments? (A judge would throw most of you out of Court, and hold a bunch in contempt.)

We can get into why "race" matters in Zimmerman's motives, but why don't we let this case play out, allow the Prosecution to present its case, introduce facts and evidence, and see where this goes?

I'm most interested in this case setting precedence and clearly defining (or repealing) Stand Your Ground.

I have guns, I shoot them, I'm probably a better shot than any of you. But, vigilantism is a dangerous thing that can bring out nuts like Zimmerman; and Jim Crow is what black activists are worried about. And, having been in law for 23 years, I see their point.

Tiz
04-13-2012, 02:09 AM
Allegro, I raise your "racial liberal bias", and check (http://www.knoxnews.com/news/news/local/channon-christian-christopher-newsom-murders/) you on "cogent support" of your assertion. A Caucasian couple was randomly kidnapped, raped, decapitated, and murdered by four African-Americans. The story was covered on local news, and ultimately squashed. I intentionally negated details of the crime for a reason. Do not click the link if you're in a good mood.

Elke
04-13-2012, 04:13 AM
Tiz, I was lazy and only read the wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newso m), and while I get the comparison in terms of the question of 'under reporting' I think the circumstances are vastly different, no?
Like I said, I think the most important aspect here is the law itself, and the idea that the notion of a threat is enough to justifiably kill someone.

Oh, and 50 Volts: it's even less of a shocker that your reply contains one ad hominem and one straw man argument, and nothing else. Somewhere Rush Limbaugh feels your hot breath in his neck.

Deus Ex Machina
04-13-2012, 09:18 AM
Allegro, I raise your "racial liberal bias", and check (http://www.knoxnews.com/news/news/local/channon-christian-christopher-newsom-murders/) you on "cogent support" of your assertion. A Caucasian couple was randomly kidnapped, raped, decapitated, and murdered by four African-Americans. The story was covered on local news, and ultimately squashed. I intentionally negated details of the crime for a reason. Do not click the link if you're in a good mood.

"Five people were arrested in connection with the crime . Eric Boyd was convicted in federal court of aiding the alleged ringleader, Lemaricus Davidson, after the carjacking and murders and is serving an 18-year prison sentence."

The perpetrator was arrested. Arrested. Arrested. Arrested. The police investigated, did their job, and got the guy. The criminal justice system worked. Awful, yes. Equivalent to Trayvon, no.

Zimmerman was not arrested, and wasn't going to be unless everybody screamed at the police to do their job. That is the story the media keeps covering, and it is the injustice that the public outcry is aimed at. People don't protest every time bad things happen . . . but they do protest when our justice system turns a blind eye to events it should be straightening out.

What did it take to get justice for Christian and Newsom? The local police were on the case as soon as they had figured out something was wrong. What did it take to get justice for Trayvon? We're still getting there, but it took several weeks of protest and media coverage to even get Zimmerman arrested. Special prosecutors had to be assigned, the FBI is now involved. So what's causing the difference? People are so ready to see Trayvon as the aggressor that even though he had no paraphernalia on him that would indicate he was going to rob or hurt anyone, even though he lived in the area and had a perfectly good reason for being there, even though the police have a 911 call making it clear that Zimmerman was going to pursue him while armed (and not the other way around) . . . we want to believe Zimmerman's story about self defense. While it's not physically impossible that Martin struck first, the evidence against Zimmerman is overwhelming. It should have led to an arrest. It did not. Why not? This is what makes people suspect race as a factor.

Tiz
04-13-2012, 07:37 PM
"Five people were arrested in connection with the crime . Eric Boyd was convicted in federal court of aiding the alleged ringleader, Lemaricus Davidson, after the carjacking and murders and is serving an 18-year prison sentence."

The perpetrator was arrested. Arrested. Arrested. Arrested. The police investigated, did their job, and got the guy. The criminal justice system worked. Awful, yes. Equivalent to Trayvon, no.

Zimmerman was not arrested, and wasn't going to be unless everybody screamed at the police to do their job. That is the story the media keeps covering, and it is the injustice that the public outcry is aimed at. People don't protest every time bad things happen . . . but they do protest when our justice system turns a blind eye to events it should be straightening out.

What did it take to get justice for Christian and Newsom? The local police were on the case as soon as they had figured out something was wrong. What did it take to get justice for Trayvon? We're still getting there, but it took several weeks of protest and media coverage to even get Zimmerman arrested. Special prosecutors had to be assigned, the FBI is now involved. So what's causing the difference? People are so ready to see Trayvon as the aggressor that even though he had no paraphernalia on him that would indicate he was going to rob or hurt anyone, even though he lived in the area and had a perfectly good reason for being there, even though the police have a 911 call making it clear that Zimmerman was going to pursue him while armed (and not the other way around) . . . we want to believe Zimmerman's story about self defense. While it's not physically impossible that Martin struck first, the evidence against Zimmerman is overwhelming. It should have led to an arrest. It did not. Why not? This is what makes people suspect race as a factor.

And where, exactly, did I criticize the U.S. Dept. Of Justice? Allow me to explain to you in a way you can grasp. Media coverage. Media coverage. Media coverage. Media coverage. Also, reading comprehension. ;)

theruiner
04-13-2012, 07:50 PM
And where, exactly, did I criticize the U.S. Dept. Of Justice? Allow me to explain to you in a way you can grasp. Media coverage. Media coverage. Media coverage. Media coverage. Also, reading comprehension. ;)Wow. You completely- and I mean completely- missed the point of everything he said. Reading comprehension, indeed.

Tiz
04-13-2012, 07:54 PM
Hypothesis, evidential support. Ching.

The consensus on this board is the media coverage was a reaction to the lack of arrests made in the Trayvon case. Which implies if the case of the Caucasian couple remained unresolved - it would have been given more significant media coverage. Is that inference correct?

theruiner
04-13-2012, 08:05 PM
Not sure why you didn't just say that in the first place, instead of saying the exact opposite. Again, reading comprehension.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how this case/trial develops. I can see this stretching out for at least a year (that seems to be the way these things go, anyway).

Tiz
04-13-2012, 08:35 PM
Can you not have a conversation without coming across like a sour tampon? It's a conversation. Relax. The amount of snarky condescension in this topic is more comical than anything. I half-expect you to sandbag me with your merse. I made my point. If you cannot understand a friggin textbook hypothesis - that's your problem, champ. "Whaaa, I jump to conclusions, and now feel like an irrational dumb ass."

And to completely belabor the point...I disagree with the inference that the lack of justice LEAD to media coverage for Trayvon. It's by-numbers, racially charged sensationalism that turbocharged media coverage. Hence why Zimmerman's Hispanic half is being understated.

Jinsai
04-13-2012, 08:42 PM
Hypothesis, evidential support. Ching.

The consensus on this board is the media coverage was a reaction to the lack of arrests made in the Trayvon case. Which implies if the case of the Caucasian couple remained unresolved - it would have been given more significant media coverage. Is that inference correct?

You seem to misunderstand the race issue here, because the incident you brought up was so completely unrelated, but yes, if some people were decapitated in a horrific way, and the police said "well, when we investigated, there was this guy walking around in the street with a bloody hatchet, but we let him go because we have a law that prohibits us from investigating people who carry hatchets." Then yes, people would be screaming at the police force for completely fucking up, and people would also be saying that there shouldn't be a stupid law that exonerates anyone carrying a hatchet.

However, in order to extend the racial aspect to it, we'd have to be living in a country where white people are a minority... but since we've already entered the Twilight Zone here, can we just get back to actually talking about what happened, instead of speculating on how people might have reacted to a completely different case which could have ended differently than it did?

Tiz
04-13-2012, 09:18 PM
I think you're pettifogging the issue more than anything. What's the media's hot topic - Stand Your Ground or white-on-black crime? If you do not see my point about the media's bias - consider we have a white Hispanic being charged with murder while the black/white communities are having a common massacre. See: the Tulsa shootings, random beatings of the Floridian elderly. Speaking of Twilight Zones...it amazes me, how even in 2012, people can be subject to denial when it comes to even the most obvious of divisive tactics purported by the U.S. news media. It isn't intellectual. It isn't political. It isn't judicial. It's simple. It's racial.

Jinsai
04-13-2012, 10:23 PM
I'm not dodging the issue by pointing out how your comparison was ill suited to the situation. But if we want to talk about how the outrage is purely based in race, how about this... find me an example where a black person shot and killed an unarmed person in Florida, but because of the "stand your ground" law, nothing happened to him and he walked free.

theruiner
04-14-2012, 02:51 AM
Here's an interesting historical parallel. (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/unjust-trayvon-martin-case-delays-article-1.1061516?localLinksEnabled=false)

Elke
04-14-2012, 03:37 AM
Hypothesis, evidential support. Ching.

Problem is that your hypothesis could only be tested by two complete hypotheticals, and so no amount of articles on the lack of media coverage in cases that you think are similar (I already said I didn't think they were) is going to do anything to substantiate your claim that your hypothesis is more correct than anyone elses.

To be specific, you claim that the media coverage on this case is greater than it would have been if the racial roles had been reversed (namely, if a black neighbourhood patrol guy had shot a hoodie-wearing guy of mixed descent for being threatened with a bag of skittles and been let off the hook because of Stand Your Ground). But there is no such case, and until there is we can't be sure. Furthermore, if such a case were to occur within the next couple of years, chances are it would get media coverage because of its resemblace to this case - especially if the results of the justice process this time around are deemed unfavorable by a large portion of viewers.
I also don't know of any case that resembles this hypothetical that preceeded the Martin shooting, so... There you go. No ching.

Aside from that, it would also require a case where a similar event occured (namely a mixed-race neighbourhood watchman shoots a black hoodie-wearing kid threatening him with a bag of skittles) BUT police immediately arrested the shooter, and see if a similar or different response was given by media. Again, if such an event occurred within the next couple of years, it would automatically attract more attention because of its resemblance to this case, again depending on the outcome of this case.

So that's two hypotheticals required to test your hypothesis.

Also: this is just a couple of people on a NIN-message board trading ideas; it's not actually a study, so really hypotheses are not actually required. I'd say.

---


To make this a little more on-topic, I've been thinking about how we've had a couple of cop-shoots-Arab youth cases in recent years that have always sparked race riots. In all these cases racial profiling was present, and the defense that the cops shot in percieved self defense. In most these cases an internal investigation lifted blame off the cops. It's not exactly the same thing, but the percieved immunity granted to a police offer works in a fashion similar to SYG, except that there's always an internal investigation for a police officer.
I guess it adds to the sheer incomprehensiveness of the law itself, for me. If even a police officer who is trained to recognize threats and not fire his weapon at will has to justify shooting it, then how can someone think it's a good idea to let citizens fire unchecked?

Deus Ex Machina
04-15-2012, 01:51 PM
Hypothesis, evidential support. Ching.

The consensus on this board is the media coverage was a reaction to the lack of arrests made in the Trayvon case. Which implies if the case of the Caucasian couple remained unresolved - it would have been given more significant media coverage. Is that inference correct?

Yes.

I might also say that the community response was a reaction to the lack of arrest, and the media coverage was partially a result of the community response and the failure to arrest.

Iran_Ed
04-19-2012, 01:45 AM
Just thought I'd add this. So I'm watching a 2007 episode of The Boondocks titled Thank You for Not Snitching.
The episode includes the local neighbor watch arming themselves to deal with a perceived black threat. I'm in awe
at how it completely hits the nail on the head, and is absolutely funny and sobering all at once.

theruiner
04-23-2012, 02:31 AM
New photo shows the wounds to George Zimmerman's head; allegedly taken after just after the altercation. (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/photo-shows-george-zimmerman-head-bloodied-trayvon-martin-death-article-1.1064765)

I put emphasis on allegedly only because we really don't know that those were taken right afterward. I'm not saying it's not legit, but just reminding that we don't know for sure.

Cat Mom
04-23-2012, 08:46 PM
The key element isn't the injury, it's who started the altercation. If Zimmerman's injuries are proof of Martin defending himself, Zimmerman still isn't in the clear as far as chasing Martin down. And apologizing to Martin's parents at the bond hearing, saying he (Zimmerman) thought that Martin was a lot older ("a few years younger" than Zimmerman) seems to say he's truly sorry that he shot and killed a kid but, sorry, shit happened and now somebody is dead, and you started it, dude, and I hope you do what the Prosecution probably WANTS you to do, and cop a plea of involuntary manslaughter, which comes with a much smaller sentence than Murder 2. If there's photographic evidence of your injuries minutes after the scene, me thinks there's also photographic evidence of you starting this shit. Plus there's that incriminating phone call to the police, where they told you to stand down. Cop the plea, dude.

Highly Psychological
04-23-2012, 09:45 PM
Slighty off topic...im not sure how relevant it was to the Trayvon Martin Killing......but oh god, i really wish i had not read that Knoxville Murder story someone posted earlier....that has to be the most horrific news story i have read about in a very, very long time. Traumatic to read. One of those fuck humanity, there is no god stories.... On Wikipedia they go into extreme detail about the woman's sexual torture...is that really necessary?
Obviously not being a U.S resident i had never heard of it before reading it today, 5 years later, its so bad im surprised it did not make international headlines let alone national headlines in the States. Just amazed ultra disturbing so-bad-you cant-believe news like that is not bigger. If that happened here...jesus.... Must have sent fucking shockwaves through the Knoxville area.

Cat Mom
04-23-2012, 09:51 PM
Unfortunately, we have a million crime stories that make that one seem like a trip to Disney World.

mfte
04-25-2012, 09:00 AM
I remember a quote from someone in the Bush administrations saying that you should never let a crisis go unused.

This is the case yet again by the current media and admin. The coverage this is receiving is ridiculous but unsuprising.

It is only a matter of time before the media changes the narrative and starts painting Zimmerman in a sympathetic light. From then on its likely that this will turn into an issue of gun control.

50 Volt Phantom
04-25-2012, 09:12 PM
Ya, that quote can be attributed to the Obama admin.

No one wants to talk about the guy beat into critical condition by a bunch of black adults "for Trayvon?" Or the twitter movement to lynch Zimmerman and even the threats against the judge?

littlemonkey613
04-25-2012, 10:29 PM
I remember a quote from someone in the Bush administrations saying that you should never let a crisis go unused.

This is the case yet again by the current media and admin. The coverage this is receiving is ridiculous but unsuprising.

It is only a matter of time before the media changes the narrative and starts painting Zimmerman in a sympathetic light. From then on its likely that this will turn into an issue of gun control.

Gun control is never brought up in this country. I wish.

Space Suicide
04-25-2012, 10:32 PM
Ya, that quote can be attributed to the Obama admin.

No one wants to talk about the guy beat into critical condition by a bunch of black adults "for Trayvon?" Or the twitter movement to lynch Zimmerman and even the threats against the judge?

That can be said about the case with anything. People that are so against violence and destruction, yet they go around and do it themselves as 'justification.' Reminds me of that one abortionist, Dr. Gunn from Florida who was murdered by a pro-lifer. Oh irony, you are a cruel, cold hearted bitch.

danebraddy
04-26-2012, 11:13 AM
No one wants to talk about the guy beat into critical condition by a bunch of black adults "for Trayvon?" Or the twitter movement to lynch Zimmerman and even the threats against the judge?

Speaking of related things - maybe someone in the US can assist - did Spike Lee break any laws with his little stunt? It doesn't take a genius to figure out what he was hoping to help facilitate by his tweet - or because he cut the people a cheque it's done and dusted?

miss k bee
04-26-2012, 09:43 PM
Slighty off topic...im not sure how relevant it was to the Trayvon Martin Killing......but oh god, i really wish i had not read that Knoxville Murder story someone posted earlier....that has to be the most horrific news story i have read about in a very, very long time. Traumatic to read. One of those fuck humanity, there is no god stories.... On Wikipedia they go into extreme detail about the woman's sexual torture...is that really necessary?
Obviously not being a U.S resident i had never heard of it before reading it today, 5 years later, its so bad im surprised it did not make international headlines let alone national headlines in the States. Just amazed ultra disturbing so-bad-you cant-believe news like that is not bigger. If that happened here...jesus.... Must have sent fucking shockwaves through the Knoxville area.

Shit I just googled that ..... beyond words nasty evil shit

Tiz
04-27-2012, 03:12 PM
I'm not dodging the issue by pointing out how your comparison was ill suited to the situation. But if we want to talk about how the outrage is purely based in race, how about this... find me an example where a black person shot and killed an unarmed person in Florida, but because of the "stand your ground" law, nothing happened to him and he walked free.

Yes. You are. Elke echoes similar (erroneous) sentiment.


(--Snip--)

Correct me if I'm wrong -- but you are stating I cannot prove my hypothesis because 'I do not have cases with identical context where only the racial components are reversed'. Ie. Having a murder with a 'white Trayvon', and a 'black Hispanic Zimmerman'. And because I do not have these two nigh identical examples to compare/contrast -- my hypothesis is utterly disproved.

How many human rights laws would have passed if we followed the brilliant teachings of you, and Jinsai? It's like you two take the concepts of pettifog, and semantics. Get them to propagate. And out comes this brilliantly executed shit sandwich only a Spinal Tap critic could enjoy.

Why, in your opinion, do you believe Knoxville: SVU was squashed so briskly? Was it (exclusively) due to the murders being resolved? I do not believe that. Mind you, I do not have an identical case with identical context with inverse racial roles. So what's even the point, eh? ;)

Elke
04-28-2012, 03:28 AM
No, you painted yourself into a corner by saying (and I quote): Hypothesis. Evidential support. Ching. and then providing only one piece of only roughly related evidential support. For your hypothesis to be proven irrefutably correct, you'd need a wealth of data that have a lot more crucial aspects in common with the case at hand; or a single case that is the absolute opposite of this one with an absolute opposite effect.
You have neither.

Cat Mom
04-28-2012, 12:00 PM
Speaking of related things - maybe someone in the US can assist - did Spike Lee break any laws with his little stunt? It doesn't take a genius to figure out what he was hoping to help facilitate by his tweet - or because he cut the people a cheque it's done and dusted?
He admitted, publicly, that it was a stupid thing to do. But, this country hasn't gotten over the Rodney King incident from 20 years ago, and I think a lot of the initial reactions were fueled by the residuals of Rodney King. Sure, some initial reactions were rather knee-jerk, but it's all pretty highly emotional, and emotional, of course, isn't rational.

Tiz
04-28-2012, 07:55 PM
No, you painted yourself into a corner by saying (and I quote): Hypothesis. Evidential support. Ching. and then providing only one piece of only roughly related evidential support. For your hypothesis to be proven irrefutably correct, you'd need a wealth of data that have a lot more crucial aspects in common with the case at hand; or a single case that is the absolute opposite of this one with an absolute opposite effect.
You have neither.

Also, I hear the shoelaces on either case's victims were different colors. Clearly, there is no comparison.

The media's bias towards sensationalism (incidentally) creates a powerful ideologue. A common truth since the advent of the printing press.

Elke
04-29-2012, 05:19 AM
And there's another straw man argument, as well as a non sequitur. It's not semantics, it's logic. If your arguments fail to be logical, they fail. Period. Or, in your own words: ching.
And that's enough derailing this thread for me.

theruiner
05-12-2012, 02:14 AM
This is truly disgusting. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47382374/ns/local_news-jacksonville_fl/t/trayvon-martin-gun-range-targets-sold-online/#.T63_XFJnXbJ)

Fixer808
05-12-2012, 05:01 PM
This is truly disgusting. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47382374/ns/local_news-jacksonville_fl/t/trayvon-martin-gun-range-targets-sold-online/#.T63_XFJnXbJ)
Disgusting, and depressingly unsurprising.

Tiz
05-12-2012, 10:03 PM
And there's another straw man argument, as well as a non sequitur. It's not semantics, it's logic. If your arguments fail to be logical, they fail. Period. Or, in your own words: ching.
And that's enough derailing this thread for me.

You need permission to ching. Stop using it in a D-grade, sarcastic context to make an adage about fondling scarecrows. I understand your point. Without exact congruency, nothing is worth comparing. I also understand why your point is wrong. If you cannot comprehend the simplicity in that - I will not decry some sort of self-endorsed intellectual superiority. But I will decry the ruiner's post about Trayvon Martin hoodie shooting targets. Our media thrives on sensationalism, and unfortunately - that same medium has warped American citizens on what this case is about. That very sensationalism is so utterly powerful, it has lead to the following.

It evolved from an isolated, incidental abuse of "Stand Your Ground" between a racist, white-Hispanic, and a black teenager - to an all-out, countrywide white/black race war with random shootings, beatings, and unfortunately: murder. You can call "logic" all you wish. Explain to me, in your words, how ANY of this is logical.

Edit: One could argue the motive of this case, and media hangover is illogical. Yet you want to use logic to decipher it. You may as well measure the quality of The Avengers with the Calvin cycle.

Conan The Barbarian
05-12-2012, 10:42 PM
This is truly disgusting. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47382374/ns/local_news-jacksonville_fl/t/trayvon-martin-gun-range-targets-sold-online/#.T63_XFJnXbJ)


I really dont want to live here anymore.

Elke
05-13-2012, 06:19 AM
Oh, I don't know. It's still a step up from county fairs in honour of a couple of hangings. In the end, we long to see the bad guys punished, or - if there are no bad guys available - anyone. Those urges have to be subliminated into something. Targets seems like a relatively harmless thing, compared to the instincts that drive us to relish in the pain and death of others.

Jinsai
05-13-2012, 07:52 AM
You need permission to ching.

Whose permission did you get? I don't want to dogpile, since Elke and I already agree on everything (as you previously pointed out), but your approach to this whole thing is a little bizarre.

Elke
05-13-2012, 11:22 AM
Elke and I already agree on everything

Truer words are yet to be spoken.

Tiz
05-13-2012, 10:57 PM
Whose permission did you get? I don't want to dogpile, since Elke and I already agree on everything (as you previously pointed out), but your approach to this whole thing is a little bizarre.

You find my opinion bizarre. But find nothing extraordinary about the media's coverage on the Trayvon case. Interesting.

Jinsai
05-14-2012, 01:06 AM
You find my opinion bizarre. But find nothing extraordinary about the media's coverage on the Trayvon case. Interesting.

It might be because your opinion is stupid, and the media coverage is a separate issue from how stupid your opinion is.

Tiz
05-14-2012, 01:30 AM
It might be because your opinion is stupid, and the media coverage is a separate issue from how stupid your opinion is.

Either you're the best troll ever, or an intuitive dumb ass.

Jinsai's inner-monologue: Wahhh! I don't like people with different opinions than me! Wahhh! You're stupid! Wahhh!

Scratch my balls.

Jinsai
05-14-2012, 03:12 AM
Scratch my balls.

no thank you

Space Suicide
05-17-2012, 11:20 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/05/16/autopsy-results-reportedly-indicate-trayvon-martin-suffered-injuries-to/?cmpid=prn_aol&icid=maing-grid7%7Caim%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D161719

50 Volt Phantom
05-17-2012, 07:18 PM
Looks like he was high too...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-documents-released-shooting-george-zimmerman/story?id=16371852#.T7WvsRySy1O

EDIT: It's also ironic that Zimmerman is no longer being referred to as "white" now, perhaps the media is going to start trying to find a way to slip out of the race baiting they did on this story before more facts started forcing their way out.

littlemonkey613
05-17-2012, 07:37 PM
I don't see how these things would get him off without any charges or why they should. If you get in a bar fight and the other guy punches first but ends up dead, you get manslaughter at least. Guns vs 120lb fists on someone YOU followed? Am I missing something?

Jinsai
05-17-2012, 07:39 PM
Looks like he was high too...

Weed stays in your system for a month. If someone smoked a joint last week, you'd still find THC in their system. Does this mean that the person is high?

50 Volt Phantom
05-17-2012, 07:43 PM
So if someone attacks you and you end up killing them during your attempt to defend and protect yourself, you believe that you should be charged with manslaughter at the very least, am I understanding this correctly?

50 Volt Phantom
05-17-2012, 07:46 PM
Weed stays in your system for a month. If someone smoked a joint last week, you'd still find THC in their system. Does this mean that the person is high?
No, I guess it just means that they make questionable decisions.

littlemonkey613
05-17-2012, 07:51 PM
If I had followed that person, was twice as big as them and was more physically threatening. How can you argue its a flat out attack if they weren't the initial aggressor? Following someone and having a gun while doing so should make a difference...........................You really think Martin chose randomly as Zimmerman started following him to become an attacker for no reason at all? Really what would you honestly say the odds are that Trayvon attacked him out of anything but fear of his own safety........hahah like what does your gut tell you? (I'm not saying a jury should decide on that feeling I'm just asking personally really what would bet on?) You think Zimmerman followed him and just at that moment Martin decides to go ninja on his ass for violence's sake after being on the phone scared with his girlfriend, or do you think that if Martin struck first it was because Zimmerman had already scared him, and was now approaching in a way that could be perceived as threatening? Yes, if the person ends up dead...I don't think they should be able to just walk away. Last I checked a skinny underage teen throwing a punch to a guy whose been on his trail didn't warrant a death sentence nor should a child under the law end up dead in that situation. Excessive force is a crime too.

Like holy shit if someone walking down the street was literally half as big as me, and started slapping me repeatedly, no I don't think it should be lawful to take out a handgun and shoot them dead., especially If I was the one who put them on edge to begin with by staring at them and following them.... Hahahah that's like... a sick cartoon. Sorry I'm not down for the Wild Wild West. And if they were underage? Jesus.

50 Volt Phantom
05-17-2012, 08:04 PM
That's not what you said originally though, you said if you get involved in a bar fight and the person initiating it ends up dead you should get manslaughter, I don't agree with that logic, it, like the Zimmerman case, is not that easy to boil down to.

50 Volt Phantom
05-17-2012, 08:09 PM
Slapping doesn't cause the wounds Zimmerman received.

Ruiner, I'm actually for the legalization of practically all drugs, if people want to use them, then I say go ahead, legalize it all, supply a means for people to purchase legit and "safe" untampered product, that said, pot is illegal right now, which means he broke the law twice to get it in his system, obtaining and using it.

theruiner
05-17-2012, 08:10 PM
No, I guess it just means that they make questionable decisions.
WOW. That's quite the stretch there, even for you. I guess I should be on the lookout for anyone who smokes marijuana, because they all make "questionable decisions."

Jesus, the mental gymnastics you do to find ANY LITTLE THING you can as ammunition in this discussion is laughable.


Edit: ...just saw this.


Ruiner, I'm actually for the legalization of practically all drugs, if people want to use them, then I say go ahead, legalize it all, supply a means for people to purchase legit and "safe" untampered product, that said, pot is illegal right now, which means he broke the law twice to get it in his system, obtaining and using it.Oh, for God's sake. Really? That law is unjust, barely enforced and millions of otherwise law-abiding, intelligent, grounded individuals smoke pot. This is just reaching for straws, dude.

50 Volt Phantom
05-17-2012, 08:12 PM
So buying and using an illegal substance isn't deemed a questionable decision by you? Is breaking the law at all not questionable to you then?

theruiner
05-17-2012, 08:13 PM
No, I don't think buying and using pot is a questionable decision. Because I live in the year 2012 and I'm not 90 years old.

And even if you could consider it a questionable decision, it's pretty low on the list, don't you think? I really hope you are just an absolute perfect human being who doesn't do anything even remotely less than perfect if you're going to judge someone for smoking pot.

50 Volt Phantom
05-17-2012, 08:15 PM
I'm sure your defense would work really well with a cop or judge.

theruiner
05-17-2012, 08:17 PM
Wow. You are so beyond irrational it's just amazing.

"Oh, my God, Trayvon Martin was caught doing 70 MPH in a 65 zone! He made QUESTIONABLE DECISIONS! This changes everything!!!"

How about the 'questionable decision' of stalking a law-abiding citizen doing nothing wrong while holding a gun? How about the 'questionable decision' of not listening to the 911 operator who told him to leave it alone, that the police would take it from there? How about the 'questionable decisions' of a man carrying a gun stalking a child with a HISTORY OF VIOLENCE? How about the 'questionable decision' of punching an undercover cop?

No, but Trayvon smoked some pot, so OH MY GOD THE SKY IS FALLING.

50 Volt Phantom
05-17-2012, 08:20 PM
No, I don't think buying and using pot is a questionable decision. Because I live in the year 2012 and I'm not 90 years old.

And even if you could consider it a questionable decision, it's pretty low on the list, don't you think? I really hope you are just an absolute perfect human being who doesn't do anything even remotely less than perfect if you're going to judge someone for smoking pot.
This would be a different story if there hadn't been so much effort made to portray Trayvon as just this poor little boy with skittles.

theruiner
05-17-2012, 08:22 PM
If you honestly think a teenager smoking a little pot is enough to so much as even smudge his reputation, then you're just a complete idiot.

sweeterthan
05-17-2012, 08:24 PM
Clearly if you smoke pot, you should be shot dead through the heart.

50 Volt Phantom
05-17-2012, 08:24 PM
Ya, I don't think so, but I like that you've already assumed that if he did smoke pot, it was probably "just a little."

50 Volt Phantom
05-17-2012, 08:25 PM
Clearly if you smoke pot, you should be shot dead through the heart.
Clearly that's exactly what I said.

theruiner
05-17-2012, 08:26 PM
I don't care if he smoked pot every day. It has nothing to do with anything.

Wow. I mean, just...wow.

50 Volt Phantom
05-17-2012, 08:27 PM
Except that Zimmerman clearly stated he believed Trayvon was high or on drugs when he called 911, I'm sure that didn't heighten his suspicion at all.

theruiner
05-17-2012, 08:29 PM
Oh, it appeared that he was on drugs? Oh, ok then. I didn't know that. By all means, stalk someone with a gun. I didn't realize he appeared to be on the drugs!

Maybe he was smoking the pot! Those pot smokers are murderers, you know. That's what it does to you- it makes you have the munchies and it makes you kill people. Not necessarily in that order, though.

50 Volt Phantom
05-17-2012, 08:32 PM
Ya, acting erratic out in the rain in a neighborhood with a major break-in problem would probably get the attention of anyone but you apparently.

theruiner
05-17-2012, 08:34 PM
You know what I wouldn't do? Stalk him with a gun.

But you just keep avoiding that for some strange reason. Probably because Trayvon smoked pot, I don't know.

50 Volt Phantom
05-17-2012, 08:37 PM
I haven't avoided that AT ALL.

Jinsai
05-17-2012, 09:38 PM
So buying and using an illegal substance isn't deemed a questionable decision by you?

NO! Stalking people with a gun while pretending you're a fucking cop, that's a questionable decision.


Is breaking the law at all not questionable to you then?

It used to be legal to own slaves. Is obeying the law never a questionable decision to you then?

Until fairly recently it was illegal to engage in oral sex in several states. In Virginia it used to be illegal to have sex with the lights on.
Some laws are fucking stupid.

Cat Mom
05-18-2012, 01:57 AM
Except that Zimmerman clearly stated he believed Trayvon was high or on drugs when he called 911, I'm sure that didn't heighten his suspicion at all.
Okay, having been in the business of LAW for over 23 years, I can comment on this with a higher level of expertise than you.

First: Zimmerman didn't clearly state any such thing.
Second: Zimmerman is not an expert on such matters (determining if one is "high" on any form of substance while looking out a window) and wouldn't be considered to be an expert witness on such matters in a court of law. That defense will not be admissible, but it will be laughable.
Third: Because not even an expert could determine if one is "high on drugs" while looking at someone walking quickly in the rain in the dark, and Stand Your Ground doesn't include provisions allowing shooting people who appear to be high on drugs, no judge or court will even allow this allegation into trial.
Fourth: As an expert pot-smoker since I was 13, I can assure you, as a true expert, that smoking pot does not make you "erratic." It does, however, make you lazy. The t.v. remote was invented specifically for pot smokers.

I've smoked the equivalent of the entire country of Colombia's pot supply. I am a white female. This does not make it legal for somebody to look out a window, determine that I'm "high" (whether i am or not) and then chase after me, ESPECIALLY after the person pursuing me has telephoned the authorities and was instructed NOT TO DO ANYTHING but then disobeyed said orders and chased me down and played Super Cop.

If it was me, if I was Trayvon Martin, this is how I'd see it: I'm walking home to my dad's house, it's raining, my little half-brother wanted some Skittles, next thing you know, some dude is running after me, wtf, is he going to jump me? Rob me? Lynch me? I'm a female, I'm a hell of a lot more likely to be worried about being jumped or raped in the dark than YOU. Ditto for some big black kid.

Martin only saw his own perspective, hindsight is 20/20 for YOU: Some fucking crazy dude starts following him and who the fuck knows WHY because Martin hasn't committed any robberies (Stand Your Ground does NOT -- I repeat -- does NOT allow you to shoot somebody for being high on anything, or possessing any drugs, so get the fuck OFF the pot thing, it's not a part of the law, you're reaching into a cookie jar of stupid) or did anything wrong and all Martin knows is, hey, some fucking dude is following him, he's a kid, he's scared, he tells his g/f on the phone that he's scared ...

and if he PUNCHED THE LIVING FUCK OUT OF ZIMMERMAN, THAT'S SELF-DEFENSE.

So, in a court of law:

(a) blaming Martin for pot use is like blaming a woman for being a former prostitute and therefore deserving to be raped
(b) drug use in this case is likely to be inadmissible at a trial; irrelevant, doesn't speak to the facts
(c) the main issue will be "self defense"
(d) the main issue will be who initiated the aggression, thereby determining who initiated self-defense
(e) the major factor in the prosecution's case will be the evidence that Zimmerman called the police and was instructed to do nothing, but ignored those orders and took the law into his own hands; thereby, becoming the aggressor

This is no longer a race issue, this is an issue that will test Stand Your Ground in ALL states that have it. Armchair legal analysis has to be based on legal procedure, and not on your own moral opinions.

orestes
05-18-2012, 03:39 AM
If you honestly think a teenager smoking a little pot is enough to so much as even smudge his reputation, then you're just a complete idiot.

I thought this was already established?

Sutekh
05-18-2012, 07:35 AM
I am not sure I like this 50 volt guy... But smoking pot is potentially not an "okay" crime... Who sells it ? Who trafficks it? Are these people and is that an industry that it is ethical to put money into. Just because it's only illegal due to daft moral posturing, does not mean it is not part of the black market & all the things that brings with it. Whether your grandma smokes it iis irrelevant... My grandma wore fur, is fur ok because a sweet old lady was involved?

I like a smoke but I make sure I know who grows it

tbh I don't know a lot about this case, but is there evidence to show that this guy was walking away when he was shot? And was he shot some distance from the property - if so the guy needs to go to jail. And there really is no 2 ways about it

50 volt let's just be up front here... What are your political beliefs?

Cat Mom
05-18-2012, 12:15 PM
Pot is completely irrelevant. It's drift in this thread. This 50 Volt guy is trolling, and trying to derail this thread. And asking him about his "political beliefs" is opening a giant can of drift.

if you're trying to bring "character" into a legal discussion, you're going to have to apply the character analysis to ZIMMERMAN, not Martin. Zimmerman is the one who initiated the aggression. It's obvious that this all just went incredibly wrong for Zimmerman. He made a bad choice, didn't listen to the cops, didn't let the cops do their job, and took matters into his own hands even after being told not to, and now a kid is dead. Zimmerman may be a really good guy, but sometimes really good guys make incredibly stupid decisions.

if Zimmerman was out walking at night, and Martin jumped him and, therefore, was the initial aggressor, then Zimmerman would probably have a good defense. But, at this point his attorneys are only trying to spare his ass from Murder 2 and, again, at some point they're going to feel compelled to lean toward involuntary manslaughter or something like that. Let's watch this play out and see. But all this other silly drift is just that; silly.

littlemonkey613
05-18-2012, 02:44 PM
I am not sure I like this 50 volt guy... But smoking pot is potentially not an "okay" crime... Who sells it ? Who trafficks it? Are these people and is that an industry that it is ethical to put money into.

Is Wal-Mart? No. This point is so irrelevant. Martin was not in a black market drug ring . This isn't Breaking Bad.

Sutekh
05-18-2012, 02:56 PM
I'm not saying it's relevant - so you're right in that sense. I just see people saying that smoking pot is not in of itself a bad thing - but it very well can be; I'm saying smoking pot is not ethically above board, as the Pot industry is facilitated by criminals. I've never seen breaking bad & I only have knowledge of the drug trade in the UK so I could be completely and utterly wide of the mark here, but it's not entirely friendly folk that produce & traffick the stuff.

Anyway why do you bring up wal-mart? Yes both Wal-Mart and the drugs trade are unethical. It would really only be relevant to draw that comparison if I had been sticking up for big business in the same post. As it is you're just saying "something else is bad too". Yeah ...and?

littlemonkey613
05-18-2012, 03:02 PM
I'm saying that because it can be said about just about any consumer product it makes no sense to single out pot in this instance however you just admitted its irrelevant so lets move on.

Sutekh
05-18-2012, 03:09 PM
Oh my days... it makes sense to single out pot use because people in this thread are saying pot use is not unethical.

I need a brandy!

orestes
05-18-2012, 03:18 PM
Drift.

​(Ten characters.)

littlemonkey613
05-18-2012, 03:26 PM
Oh my days... it makes sense to single out pot use because people in this thread are saying pot use is not unethical.

Not inherently, and there's no reason to assume that. Honestly though speculating about this is like speculating whether his sweatshirt was made from a sweatshop in response to someone saying there's nothing wrong with wearing a hoody.

Sutekh
05-18-2012, 03:41 PM
haha! I'll give you that...

come think of it, people in grey tracksuits are usually pretty mental