A Song of Ice and Fire

[Alexandros]

Before I begin, I should point out that my intention in this thread is to discuss the entire series so far, the characters, the plot, the twists etc., so there will be SPOILERS. I figured that the Game of Thrones thread in Le Cinema is a more suitable place to discuss the story as it unfolds, and here we can discuss the books and story as a whole. So, from this point onward, spoilers abound!

I admit I had never heard of this series until the HBO show came out. Although I generally like fantasy stories, I don't actively seek them out, it's more like I stumble onto them. Such was the case here as well, and I'm really glad it happened. I bought the entire series as soon as I could after I finished watching Game of Thrones and finished reading it a couple of weeks ago.

First, some general impressions: This is clearly a very character-driven story. Out of all fantasy/historical fiction I've read, I don't think I've ever come across one that revels so much in such a close study of character and thought process. G.R.R. Martin handles it very well most of the time and it's been a pleasure getting to know everyone and seeing them evolve even to the point it changes how I feel about them. I like how the story expands and incorporates an ever increasing assortment of characters and places. It can become a bit confusing at times, what with everything one has to remember about anything, but again, most of the time Martin does a good job of holding it together. I also feel the decision to keep the fantasy elements at bay so far is contributing to the appeal of the story, because whenever those elements do show up, they are more potent. Now, about that "most of the time" I keep mentioning. The first three books move along relatively quickly and smoothly. There is quite a lot of action, there are big changes going on and everything is relatively fresh to the reader anyway, so it's no mystery that these are the books that are most highly rated among fans. And then we come to A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons. Personally, I enjoyed both of these books, maybe not as much as the ones before them, but not much less either. I enjoy the plot, I like Martin's approach and I still want to see how it will all develop. However, I think that the drop in quality is evident, especially in Dance. Altough as I mentioned, I don't really mind as much as some of the fans (countless scathing reviews can be found), I think an important reason for that is that I read it all in one go. I'm not sure I would have been as positive if I had waited 6 years or so for the new installment. Martin's character development has stalled considerably, indeed in some cases (Daenerys) it even goes backwards. Characters repeat the same thoughts (a natural thing in real life, but not good book material) and even phrases (God, Tyrion, shut the hell up about whores and where they go!) over and over again . Some of his linguistic "mannerisms" become increasingly repetitive, as do his descriptions (really, I don't think after 5 books we still need to have feasts described to us in every detail, nor exactly how each and every person is dressed and/or armored). And finally, the "death twists": This is the most crucial point. I am worried that Martin is becoming trapped in his own gimmick. What started as an exciting element of A Song of Ice and Fire, that nobody is safe, is becoming more like...well...a gimmick. A means to provide cliffhangers and cheap thrills. Catelyn was savagely murdered, but hey, she's back! Brienne's death was dangled before us only to be (apparently) retracted. Jon Snow appears to have been killed...but will he remain dead? If he does, fine. If he "lives on" as part of Ghost, that's also fine I guess. But if he turns out to have simply been injured, or if he is resurrected by Melissandre, it will not do. I hated that Jon (appears to have) died, I really liked him and his plans, but now that he did, he needs to stay dead (well, partially at least, i.e. Ghost).

Ok I need to stop myself now, that's enough for a first post. There are many things I'd like to discuss but I'll wait and see if this thread picks up.

EDIT: In case some people jump ahead of the first post, maybe a moderator could add the word SPOILERS in the thread title? I tried editing it but the change does not register in the Literature sub-forum. I would hate to ruin it for someone.

[kdrcraig]

I hadn't heard of this series before the TV show either. I started reading it not too long after the first season ended and I just finished book 5 last night and god damn do I wish the last 2 books were out already. It really is a fantastic series, no character is ever safe from death, some deaths that happened at the end of book 5 really surprised me. Definitely Jon's death, didn't see that coming at all, but I'll bet he'll at least live on as part of Ghost. It seems like Martin is heading towards the direwolfs being a much bigger part of the story but he hasn't gotten there yet. He keeps hinting that Nimeria is the head of the huge pack in the riverlands, or at least that's what I think he's doing.

[Alexandros]

He keeps hinting that Nimeria is the head of the huge pack in the riverlands, or at least that's what I think he's doing.

Yes he does, although I'm pretty sure he has gone beyond simply hinting, at one point (maybe more than one) he has Arya "dreaming" of being the head of a great man-eating pack.

Since you are fresh from the books, how do you compare the installments?

[slave2thewage]

/caps foreshadowing/

​WHERE DO WHORES GO?

[kdrcraig]

Since you are fresh from the books, how do you compare the installments?

They're all fantastic, I'd say my least favorite was A Storm of Swords, I didn't really dig the shift in perspective to other characters, pretty sure it was in that book. Still a good book but I missed hearing from my favorite characters for a whole book. I have trouble remembering what happened in which book, so much goes on and most of the books are so long that it gets tough to keep everything straight. Especially the stuff that happens in Marreen I had a lot of trouble remembering who all the names of the characters were. There are so many and the names are so out there that I had trouble tying the names to the characters.

Sometimes I feel like he drags things out longer than he needs to, some of the battles and things you can see coming he takes forever to get around to. But I have to hand it to him for creating such a huge world with an incredible history and an insane amount of characters and keeping all that shit straight, it baffles me how detailed most of the shit in this series is.

Also, Tyrion is by far my favorite character. Jamie really becomes a lot less of a shithead as the books progress as well, I found myself rooting for him in the past couple books.

[slave2thewage]

Asha Greyjoy for Queen of Westeros, please.

[Alexandros]

/caps foreshadowing/

​WHERE DO WHORES GO?

Hahaha, exactly!


Also, Tyrion is by far my favorite character. Jamie really becomes a lot less of a shithead as the books progress as well, I found myself rooting for him in the past couple books.


Jamie is I think the best "transformation" in the book. He goes from being a sort of immature playboy to a pretty focused and respectable character. I too grew to like him.

The shift in perspective you mention first happens in A Feast for Crows. Storm of Swords is where all hell breaks loose (Red Wedding, attack on the Wall, Daenerys kicker of ass and sacker of cities) and probably the favourite book of most fans (mine as well I think).

[kdrcraig]

The shift in perspective you mention first happens in A Feast for Crows. Storm of Swords is where all hell breaks loose (Red Wedding, attack on the Wall, Daenerys kicker of ass and sacker of cities) and probably the favourite book of most fans (mine as well I think).

Ah I thought I might've had that wrong, see what I mean about me having trouble keeping everything straight. Doesn't seem like the Red Wedding was that many books ago. That was a supremely bad ass book, probably my favorite too and that makes A Feast for Crows my least favorite. I did really like A Dance With Dragons as well. I know I'll end up reading these all again so stuff will start to sink in more and more, just like with The Lord of the Rings. I read that series every couple of years and I like this series enough that I can see myself doing that with this as well.

Wikipedia says there's two more books in the series. Do you know if that's accurate or not? Seems like two more books will get the job done but Wikipedia isn't always the most trustworthy source of info.

[slave2thewage]

^GRRM has stated he's planned for two more books in the series, but it may be expanded to three more.

If you haven't already seen them, there are Theon and Arianne sample chapters from the next book floating around online.

[kdrcraig]

^GRRM has stated he's planned for two more books in the series, but it may be expanded to three more.

If you haven't already seen them, there are Theon and Arianne sample chapters from the next book floating around online.

Nice. I'll have to look into those sample chapters.

[slave2thewage]

My bad, Arianne's chapter was read at a convention by George but not released. Summary: http://itsinthetrees.tumblr.com/post/9110146147/twow-arianne-ii-synopsis

The Theon chapter was released as a Christmas gift to the fans.

[slave2thewage]

Apparently George read a sample from a Victarion POV chapter from The Winds of Winter at a convention recently. Most of the summaries I've found are pretty vague though.

[Trains]

Nearing the end of A Clash of Kings and really enjoying the series. Just one question: was Tywin Lannister (the father) aware of the incest between Jaime and Cersei? If so, does that mean the whole thing was a conspiracy between the Lannisters so that one of their own would become king after Robert died?

[Lunatica]

I'm starting A Storm of Swords right now so I'll be avoiding this thread for the time being but, I'm glad it's here!

[kdrcraig]

Nearing the end of A Clash of Kings and really enjoying the series. Just one question: was Tywin Lannister (the father) aware of the incest between Jaime and Cersei? If so, does that mean the whole thing was a conspiracy between the Lannisters so that one of their own would become king after Robert died?

You'll find out soon enough

[Alexandros]

A comment on the TV show, as I don't want to tiptoe on the spoiler line in the other thread. I was expecting Bolton to be more creepy. In the books a lot of weight is given to describing his voice, which is almost soothing and barely audible by those around him. I guess that would not make good TV. Oh well, there is plenty of chance for Bolton to demonstrate his creepiness in the future to be sure.

Also, not really fond of the scene with Joffrey torturing the whores. They keep piling stuff on Joffrey to make him look even more despicable, but there is enough of that in the book without adding more. I mean, the scene just dragged on for too long. It would have been much better if they had given more time to the scene of Sansa's beating and humiliation, but they decided to cut that short for some reason. Not enough nudity and sex there for HBO, is that it? They're starting to overdo it with their emphasis on whores and such, I was hoping it would slowly subside now that the show has a solid audience base.

[kdrcraig]

Agreed on all points. I wasn't entirely sure that that was Bolton just because it didn't seem like the character from the book at all. Hopefully they do a better job with him once he's in it more. Joffrey is definitely enough of a shithead in the books without them adding bullshit about whores. So far the second season has still been awesome, but the things they are changing are really starting to bug me. Whores all the time, changing names that do not need to be changed, killing off one of Dany's bloodriders(I heard it was because of a scheduling conflict with the actor or something but whatever). I'm starting to wish I wouldn't have read the books before their respective season aired, it's making it a bit harder to fully enjoy the show like I did the first season.


It would have been much better if they had given more time to the scene of Sansa's beating and humiliation, but they decided to cut that short for some reason. Not enough nudity and sex there for HBO, is that it? They're starting to overdo it with their emphasis on whores and such, I was hoping it would slowly subside now that the show has a solid audience base.

That part really disappointed me, Sansa's humiliation at the hands of Joffrey was a huge part of the books, at least it was to me, they are showing it but I did not like the way they sped through it in the latest episode. I too was hoping the rampant nudity and all the focus on whores would subside a bit but I guess that's not going to happen. I mean they do talk about whores in the books a lot, but for the most part it's just talk. That whore that came from Winterfell is almost a damn main character in the show at this point.

[koz-ivan]

They're all fantastic, I'd say my least favorite was A Storm of Swords, I didn't really dig the shift in perspective to other characters, pretty sure it was in that book. Still a good book but I missed hearing from my favorite characters for a whole book. I have trouble remembering what happened in which book, so much goes on and most of the books are so long that it gets tough to keep everything straight.

i'm in the same boat, my timeline for game of thrones is pretty much warped, i sort of mass digested all the books in one fell swoop, and am now in the holding pattern for something new. my sense of things - i remember the first book, then there is everything that comes after.

i miss alot of what i really liked about the first book, where all of those characters interacted - the starks, the lannisters, the almost baratheons, littlefinger etc - all of them would mix and match as the story progressed, then with ned's death that is shattered, and puts everyone on separate paths - and these are all left to twist, but never really intertwine again. jon to the wall, arya on her own path, sansa isolated in king's landing, rob to the war etc.


Sometimes I feel like he drags things out longer than he needs to, some of the battles and things you can see coming he takes forever to get around to. But I have to hand it to him for creating such a huge world with an incredible history and an insane amount of characters and keeping all that shit straight, it baffles me how detailed most of the shit in this series is.

yes. martin really needs some kind of outside editor, or someone else who can provide focus, the books are amazingly detailed, but there are all over the place. So many different events and most of them seemingly completely unimportant. case in point kal drogo his story was interesting to a point and he certainly had potential to be a major player had he been the one to lead his horsemen over the sea into westeros, but nope surprise he's dead! oh look baby dragons, too bad they won't be big enough for another 5-6 books...


Also, Tyrion is by far my favorite character. Jamie really becomes a lot less of a shithead as the books progress as well, I found myself rooting for him in the past couple books.

tyrion was always a scene stealing bastard. he's my fave as well. the kingslayer has grown on me too, i'm sure some of that is all the other "good guys" are dropping like flies and he's the least of the worst left standing.

[Alexandros]

Again, putting this here because I don't really want to discuss book deviations in the Cinema thread.

There is a very interesting theory going around that Dagmer Cleftjaw is actually Ramsay Bolton in disguise. This is reinforced by the fact that he has already taken some of Ramsay's trademark characteristics, like being manipulative and suggesting the most sinister actions to Theon (the execution of Rodrik, the murder of the orphans). His father could also be in on the ruse, so it would still make sense that Lord Bolton suggested to Robb that Ramsay can retake Winterfell for him. And in this way there would be a greater sense of betrayal, showing what a bastard Ramsay truly is (both literally and figuratively).

The obvious flaw in this theory is how Ramsay could have taken the position of Theon's first mate without any of the other Ironborn becoming suspicious. He obviously can't be the actual Dagmer, unless Dagmer's character has been transferred to another person or removed altogether, which would also explain why Theon doesn't know him (book Theon remembers Dagmer from his childhood). Being accepted by the rest of the Ironborn is the most difficult part to explain, but if they really want to go that way I guess they could find a way to explain it. The fact that they retained Dagmer's name could be so that they surprise book readers as well.

I admit it's pretty far fetched, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. It's a change that makes sense TV-wise, since they save time by not introducing yet another character, while at the same time establishing Dagmer as a faithful servant of Theon, thus setting him up perfectly without the audience suspecting anything.

[kdrcraig]

I could get behind that theory, I'm slowly getting myself in the mindset of not expecting the show to follow the book really closely anymore. It seems like that is the route they are taking, which is fine, it's just bugging me. Also I read the books so fast that I'm not even sure I remember all the shit that happens in exactly the right way anyway.

[Minpin]

I'll buy into that... So long as the concept of reek isn't done away with.

Because really, who isn't creepishly anticipating Theons transformation to Reek?

Reek reek, it rhymes with freak(ishly good television satisfaction!!)

[kdrcraig]

I'm definitely looking forward to Reek, they cast Theon perfectly in the show, such a douche.

[Minpin]

In response to Alexandros' first post (re: older fans disappointment with Dance) I started reading the series just before storm of swords was released, and have had to suffer through some long waits, but wasn't disappointed with Dance at all. Think the reek chapters were a huge contributor to that. Loved that the north that was so bound up with the Eddard image, turned to the dark side of Boltons.

Here I was thinking the Ironborn were hard, and suddenly the Boltons come out to flay ;)

[Alexandros]

Ahh...so 10 months of waiting again. Oh well. Time for nitpicking!

1) Did anyone else think that Daenerys saying "Dracarys" as an attack command now will take something away from the Unsullied scene? If I recall correctly, that was the first time she used that command in the books, at least in that sort of context. And it was probably one of the most badass scenes ever! Now it won't have the same impact.

2) Disappointed that the Winterfell bit has been left hanging in uncertainty. I guess the logic is that non-readers should scratch their heads a bit before finding out what happened next season (assuming of course they haven't changed it). On the whole, I loved how they handled Theon in Winterfell, but not how they ended it. It wasn't nearly as dramatic. Book Iron Islanders were all ready and willing to die and Theon was the one trying to get away from it all, only to be betrayed by Reek-Ramsay. I strongly believe the inclusion of Reek would have made a better story, but I guess they thought there wasn't enough time to build him up this season.

3) Jon and Qhorin...very rushed. Again I believe they replaced a very cool storyline (Jon, Qhorin and the others in their band being hunted by Wildlings and realising they can't escape) with a less thrilling one. I mean, it's not a matter of being negative to changes, I just think it would have been better TV as well.

But I mention these just for the sake of discussion, I'm not actually bothered. This show is amazing.

[slave2thewage]

I feel bad for the TV writers when they get to the point of trying to make Meereen entertaining.

[Jinsai]

I'm just wondering how this is going to work.

I mean, it took Martin 4 years to finish A Feast for Crows, and then 5 years to bring out the next book.
At his current rate, the TV show is going to catch up with him by the time he finishes book 6... then what? There's no way HBO is going to wait for him to conclude the series.

[Jinsai]

Ahh...so 10 months of waiting again. Oh well. Time for nitpicking!

1) Did anyone else think that Daenerys saying "Dracarys" as an attack command now will take something away from the Unsullied scene? If I recall correctly, that was the first time she used that command in the books, at least in that sort of context. And it was probably one of the most badass scenes ever! Now it won't have the same impact.

maybe they'll come up with something different? They changed things quite a bit this season, and I'm glad they did. It was fun. I am also looking forward to how they'll do this scene without leaning on a similar trick.

[slave2thewage]

Martin's apparently aiming for 2013/2014 for the next book. Seasons 3&4 will be ASoS, and since they've said that the next two books would be mashed together, they could get a few seasons out of that.

Failing that, I'm just going to imagine my own ending where Cersei throws young children from the back of a dragon onto the smallfolk and Sansa opens a lemon cakes bakery.

[kdrcraig]

I feel bad for the TV writers when they get to the point of trying to make Meereen entertaining.

I've been thinking the same thing. So much shit goes on in Meereen but it won't exactly make good television. I have confidence that they'll find a way to do it well, I disliked the things they changed in this season at first but ended up really digging the changes and thought it worked really well for the show.

[Alexandros]

I feel bad for the TV writers when they get to the point of trying to make Meereen entertaining.


I've been thinking the same thing. So much shit goes on in Meereen but it won't exactly make good television. I have confidence that they'll find a way to do it well, I disliked the things they changed in this season at first but ended up really digging the changes and thought it worked really well for the show.

I think I disagree. They have plenty of stuff to show in Meereen that are only mentioned as second-hand stories in the book. All this stuff about the Sons of the Harpy for example, we never actually see them in action. They could easily make this an action-packed plot. And there are plenty of King's Landing-esque power plays to be explored. Finally, compared to the time spent with Daenerys doing pretty much nothing but sitting, sulking, flirting etc. in the book, we will probably have like, two full episodes' worth of time of her at the most in the show. There isn't enough time for the story to draw out to boring proportions.

[slave2thewage]

I have this feeling that the first time we see Theon is season 3 will be him tied up with Dagmar and perhaps a few others in the back of a wagon or something on its way to the Dreadfort. And that Yara will spend the season looking for him, though most of the Ironborn will think he's dead.

I wonder if they'll bother with "Arstan" or just have Barristan already in the open, as it were, as well.

[kdrcraig]

I wonder if they'll bother with "Arstan" or just have Barristan already in the open, as it were, as well.

I can't wait for Strong Belwas.

[Trains]

I'm halfway through A Feast For Crows and really having to force myself through it. It feels like the story's evaporated and the characters are left floundering around from one chapter to another with no real motivation; Jaime and Cersei bicker for 20 pages, Samwell is sick on a boat for another 20, Brienne wanders around the countryside asking after Sansa for another 20...and so on and so forth, and nothing ever seems to progress. The book could be half the length if edited properly. I can't help but wonder where any of it is actually going; the Lannisters seem to have won the Throne, the Starks are all but wiped out, the Wildlings appear defeated and there's still no sign of the Others or Dany showing up in the Seven Kingdoms any time soon. So what's it all about now; will there ever be an answer to what the three-eyed Crow is, who or what the Others actually are, and whether or not it's really all a great battle between Melisandre's Lord of Light and his enemy beyond the Wall? Ugh, I like Ice and Fire a lot and want to know where it's all headed...but man am I getting frustrated with it! [/rant]

[Jinsai]

yeah, Feast for Crows is a boring chore to read. It has its moments, but overall it's a meandering mess, especially by comparison to the preceding books.

[slave2thewage]

I found A Dance With Dragons much harder to get through, to be honest.

[Alexandros]

I found A Dance With Dragons much harder to get through, to be honest.

I agree. With Feast for Crows, the change of pace was more understandable. Dance with Dragons, especially with Feast before it, is much more demanding in terms of patience. The next installment (if and when it comes) should really pick things up, there really isn't any more sense, artistic or otherwise, in maintaining the sluggish pace. On the whole, I'm very curious as to how Feast and Dance will get translated to TV. The fact that they'll follow the chronological order and mix them up will probably make things a bit more fast, but still...it will be a big test for the show's popularity I think.

[slave2thewage]

I think it helped that I love the Greyjoys and I thought the Sansa chapters were oddly fascinating, in a slightly creepy way. Plus Cersei vs Margaery is AMAZING.

[Jinsai]

Yeah, I don't know. I devoured the first three books, but I've been stuck trying to finish Feast for Crows. I was also really hoping Dance with Dragons would pick things up, and my friends who have read it said it does.

It just seems like NOTHING happens in Feast for Crows.
...and now that I've invited people to tell me what actually does happen before I finish reading it, I should probably bow out of this thread for a bit.

[slave2thewage]

I definitely enjoyed AFFC way more on my re-read.

[Lunatica]

Spoiler Alert: EVERYBODY FUCKING DIES I HATE THESE BOOKS

[kitz]

I've never read such long books in my life (1200 pages!) and it was kind of a struggle to finish the third book. It was amazing as the first two books, but it was so heavy to carry with me in my bag.

So I'm taking a break and reading "smaller" books.

[Dr.Z]

The next installment (if and when it comes) should really pick things up, there really isn't any more sense, artistic or otherwise, in maintaining the sluggish pace.

I think the next book will start with a lot of action. You know, Iron Islanders arriving at Meereen with all their battleships and what happens beyond the Wall.
Personally, I really liked A Dance With Dragons, it was probably my second favourite book after A Storm Of Swords.

[Trains]

Personally, I really liked A Dance With Dragons, it was probably my second favourite book after A Storm Of Swords.

I'm halfway through it and have to say I agree with you, I'm really enjoying it. It feels like there's a lot more progression of events this time around, and some interesting developments. Plus any book that features Jon Snow and the Night's Watch as much as Dragons does is alright in my books.

That said, I'm still not into the Dorne or Greyjoy sub-plots and kind of inwardly groan whenever the story returns to those threads.

[Jinsai]

man... for a YEAR now I've been trying to finish A Feast for Crows, and I cannot STAND this book. I keep picking it up, reading maybe 20 pages, and then shelving it again while I go read another book instead. Seriously, the sections centered around Brienne the Boring are AWFUL. They go on and on forever, and it's additionally intollerable because we already know where Sansa is, so we know she's not going to show up on her doorstep anytime soon. I'm going to try again. I just don't understand how he dropped the ball so hard with this one.

He kills off most of the characters I like, and then he centers around the goofiest, most obnoxiously two-dimensional character in the entire series.

[heroicraptor]

man... for a YEAR now I've been trying to finish A Feast for Crows, and I cannot STAND this book. I keep picking it up, reading maybe 20 pages, and then shelving it again while I go read another book instead. Seriously, the sections centered around Brienne the Boring are AWFUL. They go on and on forever, and it's additionally intollerable because we already know where Sansa is, so we know she's not going to show up on her doorstep anytime soon. I'm going to try again. I just don't understand how he dropped the ball so hard with this one.

He kills off most of the characters I like, and then he centers around the goofiest, most obnoxiously two-dimensional character in the entire series.


That's exactly where I am and how I feel. :-/

[Jinsai]

it's maddening. Maybe there will be a payoff if he superkills Brienne? Like if he kills her, resurrects her, and then kills her again, and again, and again.

PS: I don't know if he actually kills her or not, so please don't anybody spoil whether or not she gets super killed.

[kdrcraig]

Finished reading through all the books again. I didn't have a problem with A Feast for Crows the first time and I didn't mind it this time either, it's my least favorite of the books so far but I don't think it's bad. I really want the next book to come out right now! The end of A Dance With Dragons kills me. Here's hoping he actually finishes the damn thing within the next 2 or so years...

[Jinsai]

now that I've finished A Feast For Crows and I'm 200 pages or so into Dance with Dragons, I can see what he was trying to do there, but it was a really bad idea to split the books like this. At some point he should hire and editor to go through and rearrange these books into chronological order.

But so far Dance with Dragons is a much more entertaining book. At least there's no Brienne in it.

[ZeroSum]

I'm a long time fan of this series- started reading it back in high school when there were only the first three books out, and remember finishing Storm right before Feast came out... I was ravenously waiting for that book, as I thought (and still do think) that Storm was the pinnacle of the fantasy genre. I was so fucking disappointed when the follow up was as boring as it was. Storm was excellent because it was so perfectly paced, it's stunning to me how Martin was able to write a 1,000+ page novel without any really excruciatingly boring parts. It was so full of action and huge reveals and cool things happening with characters I loved, and Feast is like the polar opposite of that. I remember slogging through about half of Feast and being so disappointed that I didn't even bother finishing it. I hated Cersei, couldn't stand Brienne, and it just seemed like nothing important was happening. Finally decided to get back into the series when the show got super popular and the fifth book was on the way.... I re read the first three books and fell in love all over again, and this time was able to appreciate Feast for what it was. It's definitely boring when compared to its predecessor, but I think it contains some of Martin's best prose, and I liked reading about the Dornishmen and the Greyjoys. It's definitely guilty of some gratuitous, unnecessary world-building, but assuming there is a payoff in the end of the series being awesome, I'll continue to appreciate it. Dance is probably the worse of the two books, though. It has some awesome reveals, but for the most part its just a whole lot of nothing going on again. Of course I got excited when I saw all the Jon, Tyrion, and Dany chapters, but they're all so fucking repetitive for the most part. I could accept, and even appreciate the lull that happens in Feast, but enough is enough. Dance needed some explosiveness to contrast that, and it didn't really have much of it. Hopefully he gets his shit together in books six and seven, because this series deserves a great ending and not the bumbling bullshit that comprises so much of the fantasy genre.

[elevenism]

Getting ready to hop in the bath and start the first one (bathtub reading is one of my idiosyncratic habits.)
I'm going into it blind...haven't seen the show, didn't read the thread, don't know what the fuck it's about.
So let me ask you this....is it good> If you're into Stephen King, is it SK good?

[Baphomette]

I read a post on another board about the possibility of Jon Snow being Rhaegar and Lyanna's illegitimate son. Has anyone else heard about this?

[Alexandros]

So let me ask you this....is it good> If you're into Stephen King, is it SK good?

I'm not sure what exactly you mean. If you mean that it has the "can't put it down" quality, for me it certainly did for the most part of the series. Also, really, stay away from both this and the tv show threads because SPOILERS abound.


I read a post on another board about the possibility of Jon Snow being Rhaegar and Lyanna's illegitimate son. Has anyone else heard about this?

Yes it's a popular speculation and quite reasonable from what I remember (I'm getting hazy on the details, I need to brush up on my AFFC and ADWD).

[elevenism]

I'm not sure what exactly you mean. If you mean that it has the "can't put it down" quality, for me it certainly did for the most part of the series. Also, really, stay away from both this and the tv show threads because SPOILERS abound.


You understood me perfectly, and thanx for the warning. I still haven't started it (had 11/22/63 plus On Writing by SK) but i'm out of shit to read, so its on.

[littlemonkey613]

Just started reading! Finally.

I started the first season a year back and decided it was too good not to read first. I'm an avid fantasy reader so I was not about to "ruin" a great series by watching it first. Am I'm super glad I waited. This is fucking awesome.

[koz-ivan]

man... for a YEAR now I've been trying to finish A Feast for Crows, and I cannot STAND this book. I keep picking it up, reading maybe 20 pages, and then shelving it again while I go read another book instead. Seriously, the sections centered around Brienne the Boring are AWFUL. They go on and on forever, and it's additionally intollerable because we already know where Sansa is, so we know she's not going to show up on her doorstep anytime soon. I'm going to try again. I just don't understand how he dropped the ball so hard with this one.

a feast for crows was hard to get through, when i had finished it the first time, luckily there was only a few month wait for dance to be released, i can only imagine how folks who had been following the books as they were published reacted to it. then were rewarded with the 5-6 year wait for dance. after a quick check of wikipedia... fans of tyrion and some of the other main pov characters had an eleven year wait from 2000-> 2011 for new chapters about them.

on a re-read, the cersi, jaimie & arya chapters were good, sam's were decent. i still couldn't bring myself to care for dorne or the iron islands and the brienne chapters were borderline miserable, i really like her but like you said totally pointless since we know the stark kids are out of her reach.

[Alexandros]

on a re-read, the cersi, jaimie & arya chapters were good, sam's were decent. i still couldn't bring myself to care for dorne or the iron islands and the brienne chapters were borderline miserable, i really like her but like you said totally pointless since we know the stark kids are out of her reach.

I mostly liked the Ironborn and Dornish chapters for some indeterminate reason. Especially Dorne is quite interesting as a rival culture to your typical Westerosi ways.

[orestes]

I've started re-reading the series, so far about half way through A Clash of Kings. Has anyone listened to the audio books? I go back and forth between reading on my Kindle and listening to the audio version. It's okay but good lord, does Roy Dotrice use the same dialect for several characters, especially the women. Everyone who isn't highborn speaks with an Irish brogue.

edit: Oh, god, I've gotten to Qarth and even Pyat Pree speaks with a brogue. Ugggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh.

[Stateira]

I've started re-reading the series, so far about half way through A Clash of Kings. Has anyone listened to the audio books? I go back and forth between reading on my Kindle and listening to the audio version. It's okay but good lord, does Roy Dotrice use the same dialect for several characters, especially the women. Everyone who isn't highborn speaks with an Irish brogue.

edit: Oh, god, I've gotten to Qarth and even Pyat Pree speaks with a brogue. Ugggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh.

I have the first two audiobooks that I bought because I had some leftover credits on Audible. I listened to about half the first book, but not the second. Pyat Pree with an Irish brogue sounds... fascinating.

[orestes]

Oh, god his pronunciation of Brienne and valar morghulis is cringeworthy.

[elevenism]

OK y'all, i read a few pages of the first one and decided it wasn't for me, but now im REALLY out of shit to read.
Should i go for it?
I don't get into fantasy, but is this one of those genre transcenders...a fantasy book that can be enjoyed by someone who doesn't normally go for that type of shit?

[Alexandros]

OK y'all, i read a few pages of the first one and decided it wasn't for me, but now im REALLY out of shit to read.
Should i go for it?
I don't get into fantasy, but is this one of those genre transcenders...a fantasy book that can be enjoyed by someone who doesn't normally go for that type of shit?

It could be seen as historical fiction, since the setting is familiar (medieval-ish), while the fantasy elements are quite sparse and hardly dominate the story. There are a lot of characters, plenty of dialogue and generous amounts of feudal scheming. But as to whether you should go for it, I don't know. If you don't find yourself interested in the first chapters, maybe let it go for now and try it again some other time. Definitely don't try to slog through it.

[Baphomette]

It's good for memory building. Keeping all the houses and lesser houses and genealogy straight. Better than luminosity.com.

[slave2thewage]

Oh, god his pronunciation of Brienne and valar morghulis is cringeworthy.
His Welsh Tyrion is a work of comic genius.

[Stateira]

OK y'all, i read a few pages of the first one and decided it wasn't for me, but now im REALLY out of shit to read.
Should i go for it?
I don't get into fantasy, but is this one of those genre transcenders...a fantasy book that can be enjoyed by someone who doesn't normally go for that type of shit?
A lot of it is like the War of the Roses, but with magical elements. Although there are more factions in "A Song of Ice and Fire" than in the actual War of the Roses, it's actually somewhat easier to keep everyone straight because at least most of the players involved are not named some variation of Henry, Richard, or Edward.

The series has its good points and its bad points. One of the best parts that Martin has a pretty good grasp of human psychology and manages to make even the most archetypal characters into three-dimensional human beings with doubts, fears, and realistic motivations. Not every character is that way, but a whole lot of them are. His crafting of the character of Theon Greyjoy, in particular, is amazing.

The bad point is that the series could use some editing. I think part of the problem is that Martin is mostly an author of short stories. He says he knows where it's going and I hope he's right, because at this point I'm not really sure myself.

[orestes]

Almost done with A Feast For Crows. Just finished reading the last Cersei POV. *cackles wildly*

[littlemonkey613]

Onto Storm of Swords (only have seen season 1 of the show and will probly wait till I finish the series b/c the books are so fantastic so far)

So like Im sorry the Lannisters are the best. I thought I would love them as guilty evil pleasure but no Jamie, Cersie Tyrion and Tywin have stolen my heart. Especially Jamie in his point of view. I can't wait for Cersei's. That fucking family.

[orestes]

Finished A Dance With Dragons a week ago and holy shit, epilogue!

I should have combined reading AFFC and ADWD because good lord, the Daenerys and Tyrion chapters draaaaag.

[slave2thewage]

Season 4 is keeping Jorah in Meereen?

[Baphomette]

Martin posted another chapter from The Winds of Winter. (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/)

[Baphomette]

Update from GRRM. It's not happy news. (http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html)

[slave2thewage]

I assume we'll get it late this year. Hopefully.

[Archive_Reports]

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/grrm-has-no-pages-1750057530

The fact that he references this is amazing.