Trans Rights

[eversonpoe]

y'all, i am so sick of having to defend my existence. i am so sick of trans folks being murdered simply for existing. the amount of hatred and vitriol being spewed at us on a daily basis is disgusting.

the NY times publishing a "defense of jk rowling" literally the day after hundreds of journalists signed a letter requesting more balanced coverage of trans issues is disgusting. and their response to the letter (honestly, they responded to a DIFFERENT letter sent by GLAAD, conflating the two and basically ignoring the call by ACTUAL JOURNALISTS for integrity) was so disheartening.

i'm at a loss for what to do in my own life. i get harassed on a regular basis on public transit going to or from work. i don't go anywhere alone at night and honestly barely feel safe doing so during the day.

i will never, ever be able to understand someone objecting to the existence of a person who is simply "different" from themselves, despite bringing no harm.

it is so much easier to be kind than to be filled with hatred; it baffles me that people choose the latter.

anyway, here are some references, anecdotal and otherwise:

https://twitter.com/GBBranstetter/status/1626388542967406597?s=20

https://twitter.com/TownTattle/status/1625569075039555584?s=20

https://twitter.com/AidanCTweets/status/1625870996652675074?s=20

https://twitter.com/transscribe/status/1626649027570765839?s=20

https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1626412673289056257?s=20

[bobbie solo]

That NY Times tweet is...something. Fuck them.

Sucked reading what you go through regularly. I've been to Chicago (are you still in that area?) enough that I would think you wouldn't have such negativity around you on a daily basis in what seems like a relatively forward thinking city, but that might be the NYer in me assuming that, b/c obviously the trans comm. feels safer here than most parts of the country.

This issue is another reason we desperately need as many newer & younger Dems/people that would caucus with Dems in office. There needs to be much stronger top down, nat'l messaging AND direct policy coming from Dem leadership. There are hundreds, if not over a thousand, bills up all over the country right now that are anti-trans. The Democratic party certainly doesn't want to hurt trans people, but they also don't want to put the issue at the forefront. This thing where they hope it will just go away isn't working. Each bill coming out of these red states is more horrific than the ones before it. It's time to take this issue head-on. Embrace the cause. They eventually did a relatively good job of this with gay rights/gay marriage after a long period where you could tell most in the party thought it was too icky. That's the phase they're in now (with obvious exclusions of the handful of proper leftists in office): "oh, we support trans people & want them to have their rights, but also they're kinda icky so we'd rather not talk about it". That shit needs to end now b/c the right is, as usual, not fucking around with what they want to happen here.

[Deacon Blackfire]

i'm at a loss for what to do in my own life. i get harassed on a regular basis on public transit going to or from work. i don't go anywhere alone at night and honestly barely feel safe doing so during the day.

It is so incredibly sad and infuriating that you face this state of being for simply existing in the way that makes you feel happy and comfortable in your own skin, for just being who you are. It's never easy to make sense of the outright violent hostility with which swaths of the public responds to something so harmless. It's baffling and disgusting and comes down to generations of regressive right wing cultural messaging, and now anti-trans talking points have emerged as a major aspect of the right's culture war BS (with frankly mixed results for Republicans at the ballot box - their most virulent anti-trans messaging, along with their "INFLATION IS ALL BIDEN'S FAULT" talking points, was basically DOA as far as voters were considered these past midterms) so they're just constantly banging that drum now. So much hatred and evil stoked up against an exceptionally vulnerable group of people that just want...acceptance. Stomach churning. So many people are so terrified of a world where they can't be openly hostile to the trans community because they will not and cannot accept trans-ness in their own lives (whether it's within themselves or their families and loved ones) and that is just so deeply pathetic.

All of which makes TERFs like Rowling acting like they are the endangered, oppressed party so nauseating. That vile woman clutches her pearls when she's not busy sending her high-priced legal team after critics and browbeating them into issuing groveling apologies (https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1625538354069798912).

And while the NYT is dependably taking the side of the oppressors (remember when Trump was elected and they marketed subscriptions off of it by acting like supporting the NYT was some kind of act of rebellion? lmao), the hero we deserve and need is of course the fucking Onion (https://www.theonion.com/it-is-journalism-s-sacred-duty-to-endanger-the-lives-of-1850126997).

[Jinsai]

watching that last episode of Bill Maher was really obnoxious, where he starts complaining about the trans discussion, pointing out that it is a very small minority, as if that makes a difference or means anything.

[elevenism]

@eversonpoe (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=588) I'm sorry.

But also, like my grandma used to say, "fuck a bunch of motherfuckers." I can only imagine how it wears on you, but just, seriously... remember that anyone looking down on you is likely BENEATH you, in terms of intellect, empathy, talent...you name it.
Our species just isn't as advanced as it seems to think it is.

Meanwhile, you seriously don't feel safe? And we're talking about the El in Chicago? You want some Texas advice? Go get that concealed carry license. Learn to.shoot. At LEAST, take a self defense class.

Edit: my wife says get a big KNIFE: that in her experience, knives have been helpful.

[eversonpoe]

@eversonpoe (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=588) I'm sorry.

But also, like my grandma used to say, "fuck a bunch of motherfuckers." I can only imagine how it wears on you, but just, seriously... remember that anyone looking down on you is likely BENEATH you, in terms of intellect, empathy, talent...you name it.
Our species just isn't as advanced as it seems to think it is.

Meanwhile, you seriously don't feel safe? And we're talking about the El in Chicago? You want some Texas advice? Go get that concealed carry license. Learn to.shoot. At LEAST, take a self defense class.

Edit: my wife says get a big KNIFE: that in her experience, knives have been helpful.

there are a lot of folks in the trans community who advocate for buying a gun and learning how to shoot, but i will never do that. guns are disgusting to me and i just have no interest in ever touching one. i don't want to hurt/kill anyone.

i have a garter with a small knife that i wear sometimes, and i also have a self-defense keychain that i carry with me everywhere. i don't ever want to use them. but yeah, with the boiling point that seems to be nearing with anti-trans rhetoric and legislation, i am literally terrified that i'm going to get murdered.

my whole thing is that i've never really cared what people think of me; they can go suck a fuck. but when they ACT on those thoughts/feelings, and they want to hurt me (emotionally and/or physically), THAT'S when i care.

i've been sick the last three days and i can't say i'm not relieved that i haven't had to commute to work. despite how shitty i feel physically, it has been a weight off of me at least a little bit.

but yeah it's just baffling to me that anyone gives a shit about me simply existing as myself, not hurting anyone, just being a kind and caring person that likes to make others feel good about themselves.

i can't wait to get FFS in june and hopefully feel slightly safer out in public, but i fear for my trans siblings out there who don't have the resources to get it themselves, and will always be at risk.

[eversonpoe]

watching that last episode of Bill Maher was really obnoxious, where he starts complaining about the trans discussion, pointing out that it is a very small minority, as if that makes a difference or means anything.

he can go fuck off into the sun. ugh.

[elevenism]

I hear you @eversonpoe (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=588) .
I've honestly never FIRED a handgun.
I'm just fucking PISSED, hearing you don't feel safe.
I know a can't relate to what you're going through, but I had to watch my step in the hood in dallas,, you know?

I still think a self defense class would be helpful. I actually did Taekwondo for years, and the basic self defense stuff at the beginning is REALLY what I've used the most, (and that's as a cis dude).

You can learn a few moves: how to cause someone to stop choking you, how to twist away from someone grabbing you, and if things get SERIOUSLY intense, a palm heel to someone's nose will...well, it might kill the awful bastard, if done at the right angle.
We used to practice breaking boards with that maneuver.
And then, you'd be STUNNED at how easy it is to remove a fucker's eye with one finger.

A hood, shades, and a straight face can be helpful, too. Again, this is coming from a cis male, but it might be worth a shot.

You know me: my goal is to spread love in this fucked up world.
But, at the same time, if someone wants to.hurt you, well...just be safe...please.

[piggy]

i can't wait to get FFS in june and hopefully feel slightly safer out in public, but i fear for my trans siblings out there who don't have the resources to get it themselves, and will always be at risk.
I was just about to ask if you had considered or felt the desire to do FFS, and I hope it does help.

[Jinsai]

Donald Trump Jr's newest tweet is some sick/lame bullshit.

https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/1629302101930065921

https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/1629302101930065921

[eversonpoe]

I hear you @eversonpoe (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=588) .
I've honestly never FIRED a handgun.
I'm just fucking PISSED, hearing you don't feel safe.
I know a can't relate to what you're going through, but I had to watch my step in the hood in dallas,, you know?

I still think a self defense class would be helpful. I actually did Taekwondo for years, and the basic self defense stuff at the beginning is REALLY what I've used the most, (and that's as a cis dude).

You can learn a few moves: how to cause someone to stop choking you, how to twist away from someone grabbing you, and if things get SERIOUSLY intense, a palm heel to someone's nose will...well, it might kill the awful bastard, if done at the right angle.
We used to practice breaking boards with that maneuver.
And then, you'd be STUNNED at how easy it is to remove a fucker's eye with one finger.

A hood, shades, and a straight face can be helpful, too. Again, this is coming from a cis male, but it might be worth a shot.

You know me: my goal is to spread love in this fucked up world.
But, at the same time, if someone wants to.hurt you, well...just be safe...please.

i literally don't go out in public without a full face of makeup. i.e.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fn5WDV6WAAEST9Z?format=jpg&name=small


I was just about to ask if you had considered or felt the desire to do FFS, and I hope it does help.

thanks <3


Donald Trump Jr's newest tweet is some sick/lame bullshit.

https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/1629302101930065921

still a valid gender expression! he misses the mark again :: eye roll ::

[elevenism]

You look damn good, eversonpoe .

To be clear, by "straight face," I didn't mean make up. I mean DON'T SMILE...not a STRAIGHT face.

Seriously: a hood, shades, and an expression that says "don't fucking talk to me" helped me survive Nawfghanistan in Dallas. But then, this is a man's experience.

Still might be worth a try, though.

[Sarah K]

I don't think what's needed here is suggesting more restrictions on how trans people move throughout the world.

[botley]

I'm sure it's because a lot of anti-trans rhetoric (largely from the anti-human GOP) is spilling over the border but a lot of Canadian media is suuuuper obsessed with creating moral panic around trans rights. I thought this podcast (https://www.canadaland.com/podcast/pierre-take-the-l/) (which starts with stuff around the invocation of our Ermegerd-gency Act) did a good job of sniffing out what's going on.

[eversonpoe]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fp_F7CrWAAItLrv?format=jpg&name=small

another trans woman murdered

i'm so tired, y'all; this needs to stop

[eversonpoe]

You look damn good, @eversonpoe (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=588) .

To be clear, by "straight face," I didn't mean make up. I mean DON'T SMILE...not a STRAIGHT face.

Seriously: a hood, shades, and an expression that says "don't fucking talk to me" helped me survive Nawfghanistan in Dallas. But then, this is a man's experience.

Still might be worth a try, though.

thanks for the compliment, and i appreciate that you want me to be safe, but i don't want to have to hide. i spent over 30 years pretending to be someone i wasn't; i want to be able to be myself and not have to fear being murdered simply for existing.

also, it doesn't work for women or trans women. read all the accounts of women debunking the "you wouldn't get raped if you didn't dress like a slut" rhetoric by posting pictures of their outfits when they were assaulted - sweatpants and hoodies, conservative work attire, etc.

people who wish to do violence on others will do so regardless of how they're dressed


I don't think what's needed here is suggesting more restrictions on how trans people move throughout the world.

<3 <3 <3

[elevenism]

thanks for the compliment, and i appreciate that you want me to be safe, but i don't want to have to hide. i spent over 30 years pretending to be someone i wasn't; i want to be able to be myself and not have to fear being murdered simply for existing.

also, it doesn't work for women... @eversonpoe (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=588) I feel you.

And, PLEASE don't think I'm on some "you dressed that way, you asked for it" or "don't be lgbt in public" bullshit. I hope to god you aren't taking it that way.

Again, I'm just drawing on my OWN public transportation experiences. I never had a car in dallas.
Hood, shades and staleface helped me avoid the bullshit.
Of course, again, I know NOTHING about being a woman.

Also, @Sarah K (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3236) , I'm just speaking on not being fucked with on the bus/train in GENERAL: not how any particular group should move. My friend said she didn't feel safe. Once upon a time, I didn't feel safe being a 6ft tall cis MAN on the train, and I described what I did, that gave me a small modicum of "fuck with someone else" energy.
Would any of this help a woman? Quite possibly not, but it SEEMED to help my wife. I'm just working with what we've personally experienced.

[elevenism]

Meanwhile, in Texas, (and this literally just appeared in my email), Transgender Student felt violated and dehumanized by Frisco ISD Trustee (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/complaint-transgender-student-felt-violated-dehumanized-by-frisco-isd-trustee/ar-AA17XDax) .

So apparently the kid, from Brownsville, gave a purportedly tear-jerking talk about trans issues in HS, at a conference in San Antonio, after which a grown ass man officially representing Frisco (new, uppity part of DFW) ISD, approached dude (16) and his MOTHER, and said a bunch of terrible shit to them.
It mostly centered on...genitalia? And this piece of shit had to be physically removed from homeboy and his mom.
Yeah. Fuck. Asshole only won this seat by 53 votes: he should OBVIOUSLY be fired, but I doubt he will.

Edit: SO. All of this together (murders, harassment, my own poorly received ideas)...it's brought me to one question: what in the fuck can be done, here?
I don't think it's possible to legislate hatred and stupidity. Hate crime enhancements exist.
And the story linked to this post: this kid was only attempting to spread awareness, and was harassed before even making it out of the BUILDING.

All I see are atrocities, but no answers, and it's frightening.

[Wretchedest]

I see nothing from Dems in defense of all the stuff that's happening not a peep from the President, nothing from high profile politicians at all. We are years into a full force legislative assault and it seems like there aren't any gears turning for a pushback or any real fucking action. It's completely infuriating and I feel like our culture is turning a blind eye

[versusreality]

I look at the left's lack of response to the right's hateful rheteroic and all I think of is "silence is agreement" . there really needs to be more awareness and kindness in our country.

[eversonpoe]

I see nothing from Dems in defense of all the stuff that's happening not a peep from the President, nothing from high profile politicians at all. We are years into a full force legislative assault and it seems like there aren't any gears turning for a pushback or any real fucking action. It's completely infuriating and I feel like our culture is turning a blind eye


I look at the left's lack of response to the right's hateful rheteroic and all I think of is "silence is agreement" . there really needs to be more awareness and kindness in our country.

what's confusing and upsetting to me is also, like...there has been NO statement from anyone like RuPaul or any of the various networks that benefit from drag as an art form making them a SHIT ton of money.

silence = complicity, and that is the opposite of what we need right now

1633143716327178242

[Jinsai]

I see nothing from Dems in defense of all the stuff that's happening not a peep from the President, nothing from high profile politicians at all. We are years into a full force legislative assault and it seems like there aren't any gears turning for a pushback or any real fucking action. It's completely infuriating and I feel like our culture is turning a blind eye

Politics is all about a sad game of chess using contingents as pawns. If the dems back trans rights now, they'll be buying into the "you're too woke" trap. Civil Rights is really at an impasse right now, it's damned if you do the right thing, and you're an asshole if you don't.

And the democrats are hedging their bets on the side of "it's best not to touch this issue right now if we can avoid doing so," and it's sad, but I get why it's that way.

[BRoswell]

what's confusing and upsetting to me is also, like...there has been NO statement from anyone like RuPaul or any of the various networks that benefit from drag as an art form making them a SHIT ton of money.

Don't expect corporations and brands (RuPaul is definitely a brand at this point) to stand up and make a statement. They're in it for themselves.

Unfortunately, the only way things change is if you make noise, and make a lot of it. I'm not necessarily talking about violence, but it's time to make these fuckers as uncomfortable as they make others. They shouldn't get to go to restaurants or other public places anymore in peace. Fuck "taking the high road" at this point.

[eversonpoe]

i have never thrown a punch in my life but i'm starting to feel like it's time

a tattoo artist and fellow chicagoan i'm friends with knocked a transphobe out at a bar last week; she posted the security cam footage on her IG, and it made my heart swell

[implanted_microchip]

Oh thank goodness the president “subtly” defended drag shows while CPAC speakers have called for my genocide directly to applause. They’re bringing a nerf gun to a nuke fight. I’m sure every trans person like me stuck in states like mine (Florida) is going to be safe thanks to an assistant appointee. The dems are really doing the big work for people like me and we should just be grateful, right? “I know one side openly calls for your deaths but hey, at least we do nothing to push back at it in any vocal, clear way.” Fuck off.

[Wretchedest]

I get that there are all of these systems in place to prevent federal entities from intervening. But Dems need to get creative. The last president did everything he could to plow through any system that stood in the way of his agenda. From Biden there's barely a peep

[BRoswell]

Don't expect corporations and brands (RuPaul is definitely a brand at this point) to stand up and make a statement. They're in it for themselves.

I stand corrected, at least when it comes to RuPaul.

CpivcdzjrkH[/QUOTE]

[eversonpoe]

And on December 13, 2022, Biden signed the Respect For Marriage Act, “the biggest legislative win in the fight for LGBTQ+ equality in over a decade, guaranteeing federal rights, benefits and obligations of marriages in the federal code for same-sex couples. The legislation also repealed the Defense of Marriage Act and affirmed public acts, records and proceedings should be recognized by all states.”

same-sex couples being able to be legally married is a minuscule concern considering they literally want to murder us. i don't (and most queer folks that i know don't) give a shit about legal marriage. we care about literally being able to exist.

there are some politicians who are ACTUALLY putting in the work that needs to be done, like the people who filibustered in missouri: https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article272861995.html

there's also the nebraska senator who has vowed to make this very difficult if anyone tries to pass anti-trans healthcare bills: https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/neb-lawmaker-brings-state-legislature-halt-stop-transgender-care-ban-rcna72645

and then the minnesota governor who signed a bill protecting gender-affirming care, making MN a refuge state: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/minnesota-governor-signs-executive-order-protecting-rights-to-gender-affirming-care

THIS is what we need done at a national level. we need to get NEW laws passed to fix this shit. just because the government is "supposed" to work a certain way, and things have been done a certain way, doesn't mean it can't be changed.

again, look at all the shit trump pulled, and got away with! democrats are largely spineless cowards whose words ring hollow in the face of the threat of GENOCIDE.

meanwhile, in the UK:

1634161291634827266

[Deacon Blackfire]

I get that there are all of these systems in place to prevent federal entities from intervening. But Dems need to get creative. The last president did everything he could to plow through any system that stood in the way of his agenda. From Biden there's barely a peep


THIS is what we need done at a national level. we need to get NEW laws passed to fix this shit. just because the government is "supposed" to work a certain way, and things have been done a certain way, doesn't mean it can't be changed.

again, look at all the shit trump pulled, and got away with! democrats are largely spineless cowards whose words ring hollow in the face of the threat of GENOCIDE.

^^^ exactly.

The failure of the Dems goes beyond not having the power within our political systems to directly challenge these efforts - though it is endlessly frustrating that, no matter how bad things get or how much power the Dems actually do possess at a given time, there is always a visible presence of people whose sole function seems to be telling us that Dems are doing the very very best they can Actually and that expecting more from them is unfair. It's not just that they are roadblocked from stopping this in the traditional, procedural ways - it's that they're not even trying. Like our news media (https://twitter.com/NotABigJerk/status/1633497574236643330), the Democrats are so much more committed to formalities and order and the appearance of being nonpartisan than any meaningful notion of justice, and like our news media, that means they are increasingly treating right wing fringe beliefs as "differences of opinion" and attempting to meet the far right at halfway compromises, even when the point they are meeting halfway with them on is something as unthinkable as "trans people shouldn't exist." It's not only wildly immoral, it's bad politics! Biden needs the slightest nudge to virtue signal how pro-cop he is (for all the limited good it does him) but he can't even do the bare minimum of loudly decrying this because the Dems have decided that trans rights are a fringe issue that alienates "normal" voters - a notion they have increasingly embraced that I have seen very little actual evidence to support. I still remember people rightfully being pissed about an SNL joke where Colin Jost quipped that Tinder's new feature giving 37 different gender identity options was called "why Democrats lost the election" (https://www.vulture.com/2016/11/saturday-night-live-colin-jost-criticized-over-trans-joke-weekend-update.html) and yeah, that one still floors me. Don't know how anyone who lived through that election, other than the most insulated and privileged twits, could think that Clinton/Kaine lost because they were too pro-trans or too woke but hey, anything to avoid blaming the people whose literal job was to win that election, even if it means throwing one of the most vulnerable communities in the country to the wolves.

Again, for the thousandth time, Dems need to actually stand for their principles and drop this fetishization of decorum and "norms" and bipartisanship that gives them cover to cede ground to the Republicans over and over again. This is a fight that goes beyond the "sanctity" of our systems and demands action beyond and outside of those systems but unfortunately, like the massive issue of our judiciary being wholly compromised and illegitimate in its possession by corrupt bad actors, most of our political representation are just too craven and self-interested to fight that fight the way it needs to be fought.

[botley]

Speaking of bad actors, here are the receipts: https://maia.crimew.gay/posts/the-emails/

[eversonpoe]

1635065027895123969

[cdm]

1635556827214520321

Stay strong, my friends!

[eversonpoe]

1636424407710089217

this is so fucking ridiculous at this point that it's almost funny

almost

[eversonpoe]

the two sides to being trans:

1641584075294031872

1641804736205553665

also yeah, today is trans day of visibility, but visibility isn't the issue. i think it's pretty clear at this point that we're seen. the issue is that we want basic respect and decency, not to mention rights.

[eversonpoe]

i have experienced so many microaggressions recently and it's fucking driving me nuts

on friday, the cashier where i was planning to grab lunch called me sir, then tried to deny it instead of apologizing, and i was dressed to the nines with a full face of makeup...

on saturday, while erica and i were out to dinner, a table near us was discussing trans athletes and i heard the phrase "boys who say they're girls" and my blood started to boil...

i'm so sick of dealing with this shit

eta: what the actual fuck...

1645534892409884681

[snaapz]

Redacted

[decadent]

i have experienced so many microaggressions recently and it's fucking driving me nuts

on friday, the cashier where i was planning to grab lunch called me sir, then tried to deny it instead of apologizing, and i was dressed to the nines with a full face of makeup...

on saturday, while erica and i were out to dinner, a table near us was discussing trans athletes and i heard the phrase "boys who say they're girls" and my blood started to boil...

i'm so sick of dealing with this shit


Don´t you think it is kind hypocritical to ask for more rights but in the same time denying peoples rights to have their own opinion in a private conversation?

[cdm]

Don´t you think it is kind hypocritical to ask for more rights but in the same time denying peoples rights to have their own opinion in a private conversation?

Fuck off with this.

[BRoswell]

Don't focus on the media too much, it will only bring you down. Find a good community or network of friends and like minded people.

I'm not sure what it's like in the US but here in Canada no one really cares if someone is trans, but people are getting sick of having trans rights forced upon them and shoved down their throats, it's starting to have a negative impact.

The community needs to take a stand against the extreme activists who are painting a bad image for transgenders.

A recent video shows a man, who was born a woman, holding their baby telling it "I'm your daddy, you came from my tummy". There's a line and this has crossed it.

I am part of a community (lifestyle/non sexual thing) and we know our limits and we respect the vanilla and general public.

We also have an rule which no one disputes and everyone follows, it's extremely frowned upon to involve people in your fetish/kink without their permission. Forcing someone to call you Mrs against their will and then shaming them for refusing to goes against multiple rules.

It took me a very long time to accept that these lifestyles are branded kink/fetish.

Trans has come so far, take the win and let it rest for a while because at this point the activists are only damaging the image. 100%.

Saying that trans people should just "take the win" when politicians are actively trying to stop them (going so far as to ban drag shows, for fuck's sake) is an utterly idiotic thing to say. Also, I'm pretty sure most trans people don't see being trans as a fetish, so saying that being trans and asking people to respect that is involving them in a fetish against their will is also an incredibly idiotic and ignorant thing to say.


Don´t you think it is kind hypocritical to ask for more rights but in the same time denying peoples rights to have their own opinion in a private conversation?

I mean, unless they got up and yelled at them and said "you're not allowed to say that!", they weren't denying them anything. They just didn't like what they were saying.

[eversonpoe]

Don't focus on the media too much, it will only bring you down. Find a good community or network of friends and like minded people.

I'm not sure what it's like in the US but here in Canada no one really cares if someone is trans, but people are getting sick of having trans rights forced upon them and shoved down their throats, it's starting to have a negative impact.

The community needs to take a stand against the extreme activists who are painting a bad image for transgenders.

A recent video shows a man, who was born a woman, holding their baby telling it "I'm your daddy, you came from my tummy". There's a line and this has crossed it.

I am part of a community (lifestyle/non sexual thing) and we know our limits and we respect the vanilla and general public.

We also have an rule which no one disputes and everyone follows, it's extremely frowned upon to involve people in your fetish/kink without their permission. Forcing someone to call you Mrs against their will and then shaming them for refusing to goes against multiple rules.

It took me a very long time to accept that these lifestyles are branded kink/fetish.

Trans has come so far, take the win and let it rest for a while because at this point the activists are only damaging the image. 100%.

being trans is not a fetish, and the fact that you see it as such means you have a fundamental misunderstanding. there's nothing inherently sexual about being trans, and it doesn't affect anyone negatively in any way.

i literally just want to EXIST, how and why does that affect anyone negatively? i'm not FORCING anyone to do anything. i'm ASKING for basic rights and respect and if that's offensive to you, you need to examine your privilege and question WHY.

also "transgenders"? are you kidding me? transgender people.


Don´t you think it is kind hypocritical to ask for more rights but in the same time denying peoples rights to have their own opinion in a private conversation?

1) having a conversation in a restaurant is in no way private

2) "more rights"? i'm asking for the SAME RIGHTS that most people already have.

3) their "opinion" is invalidating to my identity and my existence, despite my existence not affecting them negatively

4) if you don't know anything about hormone replacement therapy, the debates about trans athletes are ridiculous. being on HRT puts trans women on par with cis women, trans men on par with cis men, in terms of hormone levels, strength, etc.

why are either of you in here telling me how to live my life? i'm not telling you how to live yours.

[Toadflax]

Forcing someone to call you Mrs against their will and then shaming them for refusing to goes against multiple rules.

This is like saying asking people to call you Hank when your given name is Henry is forcing your fetish on them. It's just asking people to respect how you identify, simple as that. No one is saying, "I'd prefer if you called me 'miss' and also watched while my partner and I pee on each other while wearing buffalo masks."

[snaapz]

Kink/Fetish and BSDM and different things, don't get them mixed up.

A fetish is an extremely strong devotion to something. There are sexual fetishes and nonsexual fetishes: both are obsessive interests.

Let me ask you this then, what basic rights are you seeking? And I am not in here telling you how to live your life, you started this thread and I am eager to have a good conversation, I know more about these things than you can imagine and have had years of community involvement and excellent insight. I am not trans or cis or anything of that nature.

I know, for a fact, that media is fucking everything up and things are getting out of hand.

[Wretchedest]

I am not trans or cis or anything of that nature.



This is the segment of your post that reveals you are unwilling to undergo the basic education that would be required to participate in this conversation.

[Toadflax]

This is the segment of your post that reveals you are unwilling to undergo the basic education that would be required to participate in this conversation.

Thank you. I was very confused by this statement.

[snaapz]

This is like saying asking people to call you Hank when your given name is Henry is forcing your fetish on them. It's just asking people to respect how you identify, simple as that. No one is saying, "I'd prefer if you called me 'miss' and also watched while my partner and I pee on each other while wearing buffalo masks."

Names are not gender identifiers, so Hank, Henry, Kim, Sarah, Peter are different than Mr, Mrs, Ms, Him, Her.



This is the segment of your post that reveals you are unwilling to undergo the basic education that would be required to participate in this conversation.

That's not true and that's extremely hurtful. I'll say it once again, I am very involved in the community. I contribute, I participate, I listen, and I have learned a lot and I have also contributed over the past several years.

I am not bashing or humiliating anyone here but I am on the receiving end, what exactly have I said to offend anyone?

These conversations can be difficult but also civil.

[eversonpoe]

Kink/Fetish and BSDM and different things, don't get them mixed up.

A fetish is an extremely strong devotion to something. There are sexual fetishes and nonsexual fetishes: both are obsessive interests.

Let me ask you this then, what basic rights are you seeking? And I am not in here telling you how to live your life, you started this thread and I am eager to have a good conversation, I know more about these things than you can imagine and have had years of community involvement and excellent insight. I am not trans or cis or anything of that nature.

I know, for a fact, that media is fucking everything up and things are getting out of hand.

being trans is not a kink or fetish; it's not an "obsessive interest"; it's an identity, just like being a cis man or woman. there's nothing SEXUAL about it, nor is it a non-sexual fetish. gender and sexuality are different!

also, bdsm falls under the kink/fetish umbrella. i'm also part of that community, and i would never force that upon someone without consent, because it IS inherently sexual.

also, if you're not trans, you're cis. cisgender means that you identify with the gender assigned to you at birth. so if you were declared "male" upon being born and you still consider yourself as such, you are cis.

it's not the media fucking everything up, it's politicians who are LITERALLY CALLING US DEMONS and advocating for our extermination because of their precious attachment to religion and the status quo.

and you ARE in here telling me how to live my life. you're telling me to "take the win" and minimizing the struggles and fear i face every day. i literally get harassed by at least one person EVERY SINGLE DAY while out in the world, simply for existing as myself.

people say they're trying to "protect children" and yet they're trying to deny children gender-affirming care (which is often life-saving), and then their masks come off and they start spouting genocidal rhetoric, which makes their actual agenda very clear.

what basic rights am i seeking? gender-affirming care, respect, and safety. that's it. how does ANY of that affect ANYONE negatively? to make a very reductive metaphor - it's not like there's a pie where if i get a slice, it takes something away from anyone else. the pie gets bigger to allow for that.

[eversonpoe]

Names are not gender identifiers, so Hank, Henry, Kim, Sarah, Peter are different than Mr, Mrs, Ms, Him, Her.

That's not true and that's extremely hurtful. I'll say it once again, I am very involved in the community. I contribute, I participate, I listen, and I have learned a lot and I have also contributed over the past several years.

I am not bashing or humiliating anyone here but I am on the receiving end, what exactly have I said to offend anyone?

These conversations can be difficult but also civil.

names and pronouns ARE different, yes! but HOW DOES IT AFFECT ANYONE NEGATIVELY TO CALL SOMEONE WHAT THEY WANT TO BE CALLED? asking someone to call you hank instead of henry is very much the same, linguistically speaking, as asking someone to refer to you with masculine pronouns.

you've said MULTIPLE things to offend me in here and i have been continuously addressing them.

what is YOUR investment in this? if you're not trans, why are you in here? how does this affect you in any way?

[cdm]

That's not true and that's extremely hurtful. I'll say it once again, I am very involved in the community. I contribute, I participate, I listen, and I have learned a lot and I have also contributed over the past several years.

I am not bashing or humiliating anyone here but I am on the receiving end, what exactly have I said to offend anyone?

These conversations can be difficult but also civil.

It's really hard to take you seriously based on what you've said here, specifically derogatory terminology and phraseology.

[snaapz]

being trans is not a kink or fetish; it's not an "obsessive interest"; it's an identity, just like being a cis man or woman. there's nothing SEXUAL about it, nor is it a non-sexual fetish. gender and sexuality are different!

also, bdsm falls under the kink/fetish umbrella. i'm also part of that community, and i would never force that upon someone without consent, because it IS inherently sexual.

also, if you're not trans, you're cis. cisgender means that you identify with the gender assigned to you at birth. so if you were declared "male" upon being born and you still consider yourself as such, you are cis.

it's not the media fucking everything up, it's politicians who are LITERALLY CALLING US DEMONS and advocating for our extermination because of their precious attachment to religion and the status quo.

and you ARE in here telling me how to live my life. you're telling me to "take the win" and minimizing the struggles and fear i face every day. i literally get harassed by at least one person EVERY SINGLE DAY while out in the world, simply for existing as myself.

people say they're trying to "protect children" and yet they're trying to deny children gender-affirming care (which is often life-saving), and then their masks come off and they start spouting genocidal rhetoric, which makes their actual agenda very clear.

what basic rights am i seeking? gender-affirming care, respect, and safety. that's it. how does ANY of that affect ANYONE negatively? to make a very reductive metaphor - it's not like there's a pie where if i get a slice, it takes something away from anyone else. the pie gets bigger to allow for that.


I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. It's true that the situation is becoming heated in the US and Republicans seem to be reversing progress and in some cases making things worse than ever before, some of this is fueled by some of the extreme things we see in media, Dylan Mulvaney is a good example. It's not the government lashing back, its the people. This can be proven and measured by the response we are witnessing. The community needs to realize and acknowledge that things are heated right now and the best thing to do is not add fuel to the fire and reexamine things. I'm not the first to bring up the word fetish and I will not be the last. A good portion of the population thinks that trans is just a fetish, so the community needs to have healthy discussions on the topic to better understand how it can be addressed and handled.

I'm not telling anyone how to live their lives, be happy with who you are and rock it! I know how fulfilling it is to be yourself and that feeling of looking in the mirror and thinking "this is me". Confidence, security, empowerment, and calmness all at once :)

As for take the win, you cannot ignore how far trans has come these past few years. It is an accomplishment and there's more work to be done, but the community needs to work with the general population and realize that we must meet in the middle on some things.

The world is not ready for men giving birth and telling the child "I'm your dad, you came from my tummy". So this is what I mean by slow down or else we face major backlash.

[snaapz]

It's really hard to take you seriously based on what you've said here, specifically derogatory terminology and phraseology.

Can you elaborate?

[Wretchedest]

Names are not gender identifiers, so Hank, Henry, Kim, Sarah, Peter are different than Mr, Mrs, Ms, Him, Her.




That's not true and that's extremely hurtful. I'll say it once again, I am very involved in the community. I contribute, I participate, I listen, and I have learned a lot and I have also contributed over the past several years.

I am not bashing or humiliating anyone here but I am on the receiving end, what exactly have I said to offend anyone?

These conversations can be difficult but also civil.

This is just a factual statement: what I quoted is nonsense and reveals you don't fundamentally understand the terms you were using. When you start throwing around vocabulary in a way that makes it clear that you don't even know what those words mean, it makes it very difficult to take you seriously. It also reveals that you haven't put in real effort to understand the issue, because understanding just some of the basic vocabulary is one of the easier parts.

[eversonpoe]

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. It's true that the situation is becoming heated in the US and Republicans seem to be reversing progress and in some cases making things worse than ever before, some of this is fueled by some of the extreme things we see in media, Dylan Mulvaney is a good example. It's not the government lashing back, its the people. This can be proven and measured by the response we are witnessing. The community needs to realize and acknowledge that things are heated right now and the best thing to do is not add fuel to the fire and reexamine things. I'm not the first to bring up the word fetish and I will not be the last. A good portion of the population thinks that trans is just a fetish, so the community needs to have healthy discussions on the topic to better understand how it can be addressed and handled.

I'm not telling anyone how to live their lives, be happy with who you are and rock it! I know how fulfilling it is to be yourself and that feeling of looking in the mirror and thinking "this is me". Confidence, security, empowerment, and calmness all at once :)

As for take the win, you cannot ignore how far trans has come these past few years. It is an accomplishment and there's more work to be done, but the community needs to work with the general population and realize that we must meet in the middle on some things.

The world is not ready for men giving birth and telling the child "I'm your dad, you came from my tummy". So this is what I mean by slow down or else we face major backlash.

you literally just keep espousing the same points over and over and you're not listening to me.

i'm done with this conversation. please leave this thread. i made this to talk about my frustrations with how the world treats trans people and you're coming in here and arguing with me ABOUT MY EXISTENCE.

[Toadflax]

snaapz:


it's extremely frowned upon to involve people in your fetish/kink without their permission.

also snaapz:


A good portion of the population thinks that trans is just a fetish


snaapz:


Don't focus on the media


take the win


let it rest


also snaapz:


I'm not telling anyone how to live their lives

[eversonpoe]

I am not bashing or humiliating anyone here but I am on the receiving end

also, just want to specifically address this - no one is bashing or humiliating you, and if you think that the valid criticisms that we're throwing at you are bashing or humiliating, try being a trans person for even half a day out in the world. you have no idea what you're talking about and that in itself offends me.

[Wretchedest]

Also, Snaapz, I see that you are posturing as if to try and understand or "solve" these concepts through debate and conversation, which is ridiculous because *these are all known quantities.* All you have to do is listen to people who actually have these experiences and identities, and try and read up on the many decades of research and information on these topics.

[Toadflax]

I am not trans or cis or anything of that nature.

Because you seem to be missing why everyone is cringing at this, let me explain.

You seem to not understand that "cis" means identifying as the gender you were assigned at birth. So unless you're non-binary and just haven't mentioned that yet, you are in fact cis.

Furthermore, if you thought cis meant some other "alternative" way to identify, the language you used here feels dismissive. "I'm not trans or cis or anything of that nature" sounds like, "I'm not one of those." I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but it's a really bad look to 1) say you know so much about this topic, 2) seemingly misuse a very common word surrounding the topic, and 3) use othering language to separate yourself from people you are claiming to respect.

[snaapz]

I'll leave, sorry for poking my head in this thread. Like I said, rock it and be you! :)


As for the word fetish, it's not some forbidden word I said; it's a real topic of discussion. It's a fact, a lot of people view it as a fetish; some trans even view it as a fetish while others do not.

https://www.transgenderpulse.com/forums/index.php?/search/&q=fetish&quick=1&updated_after=any&sortby=newest

[cdm]

Can you elaborate?


...but people are getting sick of having trans rights forced upon them and shoved down their throats...


...transgenders.


Forcing someone to call you Mrs against their will...

I mean come on.

[decadent]

1) having a conversation in a restaurant is in no way private

2) "more rights"? i'm asking for the SAME RIGHTS that most people already have.

3) their "opinion" is invalidating to my identity and my existence, despite my existence not affecting them negatively

4) if you don't know anything about hormone replacement therapy, the debates about trans athletes are ridiculous. being on HRT puts trans women on par with cis women, trans men on par with cis men, in terms of hormone levels, strength, etc.

why are either of you in here telling me how to live my life? i'm not telling you how to live yours.

Noone is telling you how to live your life, I just meant that you shouldnt try to tell other people, in this case someone in a restaurant having a conversation between them, how to live theirs. If they want to discuss the problem with trans athletes in sports that is their right, don´t you think?

You said you had microagressions - how is a conversation between two people that don´t know you and are not even talking about you (I assume you are not a competing athlete) an agression?

Sorry but all the hormones in the world won´t change the fact that a trans woman twice the size and probably twice the muscular mass of a woman has an advantage. So a discussion about that can be had without having it interpreted as an agression, especially when it is not about you.

[Wretchedest]

Noone is telling you how to live your life, I just meant that you shouldnt try to tell other people, in this case someone in a restaurant having a conversation between them, how to live theirs. If they want to discuss the problem with trans athletes in sports that is their right, don´t you think?

You said you had microagressions - how is a conversation between two people that don´t know you and are not even talking about you (I assume you are not a competing athlete) an agression?

Sorry but all the hormones in the world won´t change the fact that a trans woman twice the size and probably twice the muscular mass of a woman has an advantage. So a discussion about that can be had without having it interpreted as an agression, especially when it is not about you.

It is inconceivably stupid to me that you are conflating their anger with a conversation they experienced in public with an attempt to deny the people having that conversation their rights. I can't even wrap my head around that. That's not a fucking rights issue. What is a rights issue is the ability to exist in a public place safely without having to listen to people talk about them an endangering way.

The word "rights" pertains to legal issues and legal issues only. Let's be real fucking clear about that. No one is suggesting that the offending diners be tossed in prison or fined, but perhaps ejected from a private establishment by well meaning owners.

Also sports is a mode of recreation. Sports do not matter. It's so childish that you people act like sports are a *real issue.* It's a childish game. You guys think that there's some meta game shift where men are transitioning to win at a stupid game? Do you listen to yourselves??? How do you even put your shoes on?

[eversonpoe]

Noone is telling you how to live your life, I just meant that you shouldnt try to tell other people, in this case someone in a restaurant having a conversation between them, how to live theirs. If they want to discuss the problem with trans athletes in sports that is their right, don´t you think?

You said you had microagressions - how is a conversation between two people that don´t know you and are not even talking about you (I assume you are not a competing athlete) an agression?

Sorry but all the hormones in the world won´t change the fact that a trans woman twice the size and probably twice the muscular mass of a woman has an advantage. So a discussion about that can be had without having it interpreted as an agression, especially when it is not about you.


Microaggression is a term used for commonplace daily verbal, behavioral or environmental slights, whether intentional or unintentional, that communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative attitudes toward stigmatized or culturally marginalized groups.

taking estrogen (in the case of trans women) decreases muscle mass and strength; taking testosterone (in the case of trans men) does the opposite. you're being extremely reductive in saying that trans women are "twice the size" of cis women because that is rarely the case. there is no PROBLEM with trans athletes, the problem is with transphobes trying to keep trans athletes from competing.

you're telling me that i shouldn't be offended by people near me having a conversation that is inherently transphobic. that's not dissimilar to telling a black person to just ignore an inherently racist conversation happening nearby. you're minimizing its effect and, yes, TELLING me what to do.

i'm not denying it's their "right" to have that conversation, but that doesn't make it less hurtful or harmful. and also it was a family with kids, which means those kids are hearing their dad spout transphobic rhetoric, which they are likely internalizing, which perpetuates the cycle of discrimination. how do you not see that as a negative outcome?

and i didn't tell anyone anything. i didn't interact with them.

[decadent]

It is inconceivably stupid to me that you are conflating their anger with a conversation they experienced in public with an attempt to deny the people having that conversation their rights. I can't even wrap my head around that. That's not a fucking rights issue. What is a rights issue is the ability to exist in a public place safely without having to listen to people talk about them an endangering way.

The word "rights" pertains to legal issues and legal issues only. Let's be real fucking clear about that. No one is suggesting that the offending diners be tossed in prison or fined, but perhaps ejected from a private establishment by well meaning owners.

Also sports is a mode of recreation. Sports do not matter. It's so childish that you people act like sports are a *real issue.* It's a childish game. You guys think that there's some meta game shift where men are transitioning to win at a stupid game? Do you listen to yourselves??? How do you even put your shoes on?

Oh wow, so people should be kicked out of a restaurant because they have an opinion which they discuss in a private conversation? And how is this discussion endangering anyone at all?

I think this is what snaapz means when talking about extremes.

[eversonpoe]

Oh wow, so people should be kicked out of a restaurant because they have an opinion which they discuss in a private conversation? And how is this discussion endangering anyone at all?

I think this is what snaapz means when talking about extremes.

oh my god, get out of this thread. now.

[cdm]

Reminder to mash that ignore button when people aren't arguing in good faith.

[decadent]

taking estrogen (in the case of trans women) decreases muscle mass and strength; taking testosterone (in the case of trans men) does the opposite. you're being extremely reductive in saying that trans women are "twice the size" of cis women because that is rarely the case. there is no PROBLEM with trans athletes, the problem is with transphobes trying to keep trans athletes from competing.

you're telling me that i shouldn't be offended by people near me having a conversation that is inherently transphobic. that's not dissimilar to telling a black person to just ignore an inherently racist conversation happening nearby. you're minimizing its effect and, yes, TELLING me what to do.

i'm not denying it's their "right" to have that conversation, but that doesn't make it less hurtful or harmful. and also it was a family with kids, which means those kids are hearing their dad spout transphobic rhetoric, which they are likely internalizing, which perpetuates the cycle of discrimination. how do you not see that as a negative outcome?

and i didn't tell anyone anything. i didn't interact with them.

Well studies found that the advantage stays even a full year of hormon therapy: https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-trans-athletes-have-an-advantage-in-elite-sport/a-58583988

I am not saying that all trans women are twice the size but I guess in most cases they have a physical advantage. Which gives them an advantage even after hormones, at least after one year. How is it fair if you have trained your whole life to compete and than get beaten by this advantage? In sports on the highest level it is all about the small details and the fine margins.

[eversonpoe]

love the way these people are ignoring so much of what i'm saying and only responding to the things on which they think they can pull a GOTCHA!

WHY ARE YOU ARGUING WITH ME? WHAT IS YOUR INVESTMENT IN THIS?

[Toadflax]

Noone is telling you how to live your life, I just meant that you shouldnt try to tell other people, in this case someone in a restaurant having a conversation between them, how to live theirs. If they want to discuss the problem with trans athletes in sports that is their right, don´t you think?

You said you had microagressions - how is a conversation between two people that don´t know you and are not even talking about you (I assume you are not a competing athlete) an agression?

Sorry but all the hormones in the world won´t change the fact that a trans woman twice the size and probably twice the muscular mass of a woman has an advantage. So a discussion about that can be had without having it interpreted as an agression, especially when it is not about you.

"Boys who say they're girls" is a microaggression, and "micro" is being extremely generous. It's one thing to overhear people having a respectful conversation about a current issue; it's another to overhear someone use shitty language to describe a people you identify with. It's exactly the same as overhearing someone say, "they've started letting blacks into my country club, so I'm looking around for something else." Just because they're not talking about you doesn't make it not painful. Yes, it is in those people's rights to state their opinions and to state them loudly enough that others can hear. That doesn't mean it's not incredibly shitty.

Also, you're only taking one example and saying it's not a big deal, but she gave three examples, one of which happened to her directly, while the other two spoke in a derogatory way toward her identity. When people say they feel attacked or underrepresented or undervalued, it's not up to us to decide whether their feelings are valid.

[decadent]

love the way these people are ignoring so much of what i'm saying and only responding to the things on which they think they can pull a GOTCHA!

WHY ARE YOU ARGUING WITH ME? WHAT IS YOUR INVESTMENT IN THIS?

My investment is that I find that trans women in sports have an unfair advantage and that there can be a discussion about it without the whole community jumping you.

I understand that the terms they used in the conversation are shitty, so I am sorry you had to hear this there.

So in order to not be responsible for more microagressions, lets leave it at this.

[Toadflax]

Also sports is a mode of recreation. Sports do not matter. It's so childish that you people act like sports are a *real issue.* It's a childish game. You guys think that there's some meta game shift where men are transitioning to win at a stupid game? Do you listen to yourselves??? How do you even put your shoes on?

Sports matter regardless of whether they matter to me (they don't) or you. It's an enormous industry, and the people who excel in the industry make a good living off of it. It also brings families together and is incredibly meaningful to many people. More importantly to this issue, sports breeds celebrities, who can influence entire societies and become heroes and role models to thousands of people. Most major sports celebrities are straight cis men, which means a whoooole lot of people are being shown straight cis men as the exemplar of success, influence, celebrity, etc., while everyone else is relegated to a B-tier position. Representation matters, therefore how any industry that breeds celebrity (sports, movies, music, politics, etc.) handles representation matters.

[Toadflax]

Oh wow, so people should be kicked out of a restaurant because they have an opinion which they discuss in a private conversation?

This right here. This is the problem. She said it bothered her to hear this conversation. YOU said she was saying they don't have the right to do this. YOU said she was saying they should be kicked out of the restaurant.

You are the one creating these "extremes" you're complaining about.

[decadent]

Also sports is a mode of recreation. Sports do not matter. It's so childish that you people act like sports are a *real issue.* It's a childish game. You guys think that there's some meta game shift where men are transitioning to win at a stupid game? Do you listen to yourselves??? How do you even put your shoes on?

Are you kidding me? Professional athletes devote their live to a career in sport. How would you feel as a woman when you spend 20+ years training and devoting your life to a sport and then a transwomen comes in, faster and stronger, brings in an unfair advantage and starts winning in front of women who have until now competed only between themselves? Come on, how is this fair to all girls and women that life for their sports career???

[decadent]

This right here. This is the problem. She said it bothered her to hear this conversation. YOU said she was saying they don't have the right to do this. YOU said she was saying they should be kicked out of the restaurant.

You are the one creating these "extremes" you're complaining about.

Nope, let me quote Wretchedest "Let's be real fucking clear about that. No one is suggesting that the offending diners be tossed in prison or fined, but perhaps ejected from a private establishment by well meaning owners."

I wasnt answering to eversonpoe on that one.

[cdm]

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked

[Wretchedest]

Are you kidding me? Professional athletes devote their live to a career in sport. How would you feel as a woman when you spend 20+ years training and devoting your life to a sport and then a transwomen comes in, faster and stronger, brings in an unfair advantage and starts winning in front of women who have until now competed only between themselves? Come on, how is this fair to all girls and women that life for their sports career???

Where has this happened in a real way at all? When trans women finish transitioning do they place better? No. Is there an influx of trans athletes into the WNBA for instance? No. This is just ridiculous nonsense. About games.

[Wretchedest]

Oh wow, so people should be kicked out of a restaurant because they have an opinion which they discuss in a private conversation? And how is this discussion endangering anyone at all?

I think this is what snaapz means when talking about extremes.

People get kicked out of public places for expression all the time.

If you start talking in a way that is distressing or upsetting to other customers, you are going to be tossed out. This is how business has always been conducted in these spaces.

[Toadflax]

Nope, let me quote Wretchedest "Let's be real fucking clear about that. No one is suggesting that the offending diners be tossed in prison or fined, but perhaps ejected from a private establishment by well meaning owners."

I wasnt answering to eversonpoe on that one.

Understood. But also, in response to your original question, yes, just as transphobic people have the right to state their opinion loudly enough that others can hear, so do restaurant owners have the right to kick them out for doing so. People have been kicked out of restaurants for offensive behavior for as long as restaurants have been around. As for whether a certain behavior qualifies as offensive, that's completely going to vary on a case by case basis. To your point, there's a wide spectrum from a quiet conversation no one was intended to overhear to standing up and pointing at someone whose lifestyle you don't agree with and making a scene. But I'm sure you've been to a restaurant where people were talking much more loudly than they need to be. That in itself can be incredibly disruptive, which of course is made much worse if the actual things they're saying are offensive, whether it's something like transphobia or just something like using foul language.

[decadent]

Where has this happened in a real way at all? When trans women finish transitioning do they place better? No. Is there an influx of trans athletes into the WNBA for instance? No. This is just ridiculous nonsense. About games.

Yes, it has, for example: Lia Thomas became the first openly transgender athlete to win America's top trophy in university sports

Another example was in MMA. How is fighting a transwoman in MMA fair?

[cdm]

Yes, it has, for example: Lia Thomas became the first openly transgender athlete to win America's top trophy in university sports.

730

You copied and pasted from a google search and you didn't bother to read the article: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html

* chefs kiss *

[thelastdisciple]

Yes, it has, for example: Lia Thomas became the first openly transgender athlete to win America's top trophy in university sports
You spoke of spending 20+ years training and devoting your life to a sport and you think THEY the trans people haven't? That they just walked out of some factory ready to fucking go? It doesn't work like that.

And please tell me what's going to happen when they're stuck competing with a gender that doesn't share their own physical attributes, that does not reflect who they are given society is where it's at right now?

You think that men's locker room is going to welcome a Lia Thomas with open arms in the current climate? It's been bad enough before with the problems of homophobia and racism.

Then what happens after that, will we need leagues exclusively comprised of trans individuals? Oh but guess what, they will also all have different physical attributes, strengths and skill just like any other athlete... can't be having any unfair advantages �� and how do you figure that one out? hmm i wonder? It's almost as if there are different categories and skill levels to accommodate these differences and trans people don't belong only because.... because why? You fear them and what you don't understand, that's the only reason.

[Wretchedest]

Yes, it has, for example: Lia Thomas became the first openly transgender athlete to win America's top trophy in university sports

Another example was in MMA. How is fighting a transwoman in MMA fair?

Your evidence is that one of them won one time?

[decadent]

Arent those two examples? How many more do you want? You asked if it ever happened, I gave you examples.
cdm hey Sherlock, he asked and I answered, what is so difficult to understand? I read the article - it doesnt prove anything. A win is a win, like I said it is about fine margins and Thomas won. Can you prove that Thomas swam at 100%? No, you cannot. Maybe 80% was enough to win and not set a record so all hell wont break loose.

So you all honestly believe that it is fair that trans women should participate in womens sport even though they have an advantage as proven by two different scientific researches?

[eversonpoe]

Arent those two examples? How many more do you want? You asked if it ever happened, I gave you examples.
@cdm (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3012) hey Sherlock, he asked and I answered, what is so difficult to understand? I read the article - it doesnt prove anything. A win is a win, like I said it is about fine margins and Thomas won. Can you prove that Thomas swam at 100%? No, you cannot. Maybe 80% was enough to win and not set a record so all hell wont break loose.

So you all honestly believe that it is fair that trans women should participate in womens sport even though they have an advantage as proven by two different scientific researches?

where's the "two different scientific resarches" that prove trans women have an advantage over cis women? where is it?

everything you're saying comes from a place of ignorance and thinly veiled transphobia. i'm going to ask you one more time - leave this thread. you have no place in this conversation. i don't want you here.

[cdm]

Don't get all bent out of shape because you did a c/p drive-by thinking the article proved your point when it actually refuted it. Take the fucking L.

And given your track record so far, please cite the two different "researches" you're referring to.

[Wretchedest]

Arent those two examples? How many more do you want? You asked if it ever happened, I gave you examples.
cdm hey Sherlock, he asked and I answered, what is so difficult to understand? I read the article - it doesnt prove anything. A win is a win, like I said it is about fine margins and Thomas won. Can you prove that Thomas swam at 100%? No, you cannot. Maybe 80% was enough to win and not set a record so all hell wont break loose.

So you all honestly believe that it is fair that trans women should participate in womens sport even though they have an advantage as proven by two different scientific researches?

But the the way you've attempted to answer this question only proves all of my points.

First of all, your data has no fucking context. Is this above the baseline for normal performance in this field? This consistently so? If so is that increase above the baseline typical for trans individuals? How does that performance stand amongst the other performances of that individual? Turns out, the answer to all of these questions puts this woman at below average... You are just tripping out over nothing.

Presenting only a few victories has a serious problem: it implies that, in order for this to be fair, trans people must lose every time.

And then, when some of that context was provided back to you, you extrapolate into a serious of paranoid, baseless speculations rooted in sheer bigotry. That article does you another severe disservice by pointing out that two of the largest co.petitive sports organizations already have longstanding guidelines about trans inclusion that actually very specific, which shows that these organizations, which have a greater steak in this issue than you do, have already researched these kinds of outcomes and determined them to be a non-issue

[decadent]

But the the way you've attempted to answer this question only proves all of my points.

First of all, your data has no fucking context. Is this above the baseline for normal performance in this field? This consistently so? If so is that increase above the baseline typical for trans individuals? How does that performance stand amongst the other performances of that individual? Turns out, the answer to all of these questions puts this woman at below average... You are just tripping out over nothing.

Presenting only a few victories has a serious problem: it implies that, in order for this to be fair, trans people must lose every time.

And then, when some of that context was provided back to you, you extrapolate into a serious of paranoid, baseless speculations rooted in sheer bigotry. That article does you another severe disservice by pointing out that two of the largest co.petitive sports organizations already have longstanding guidelines about trans inclusion that actually very specific, which shows that these organizations, which have a greater steak in this issue than you do, have already researched these kinds of outcomes and determined them to be a non-issue

How many times do I need to paste the link, just do your homework and check my previous replies:

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-trans-athletes-have-an-advantage-in-elite-sport/a-58583988

So yes, even after a year of hormones treatment they still have an advantage.

[eversonpoe]

1646212260568653824

[Wretchedest]

How many times do I need to paste the link, just do your homework and check my previous replies:

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-trans-athletes-have-an-advantage-in-elite-sport/a-58583988

So yes, even after a year of hormones treatment they still have an advantage.
"If you are looking for information on cisgender athletes, you'd never use studies on non-athletic trans people. You just wouldn't do that. It's just that we don't have any data on trans athletes. So I think you have to take the results with a certain grain of salt."

"None of the experts interviewed support a blanket ban on trans athletes, which is in line with a recent study"

So I don't really take this article as really proving your point. Even so I've absolutely never heard of this website before, so it is very, very difficult to trust it or grant it any kind of authority. I will say that the information presented in this article is very focused on one aspect: muscle mass, which is really just one component of this. It circumvents data that would really matter, which is more results oriented data.

[decadent]

"If you are looking for information on cisgender athletes, you'd never use studies on non-athletic trans people. You just wouldn't do that. It's just that we don't have any data on trans athletes. So I think you have to take the results with a certain grain of salt."

"None of the experts interviewed support a blanket ban on trans athletes, which is in line with a recent study"

So I don't really take this article as really proving your point. Even so I've absolutely never heard of this website before, so it is very, very difficult to trust it or grant it any kind of authority. I will say that the information presented in this article is very focused on one aspect: muscle mass, which is really just one component of this. It circumvents data that would really matter, which is more results oriented data.

If you gonna use random quotes from the article I can do the same:
Do trans women have an advantage when competing in elite sports?Without hormone therapy — yes. But even with hormone therapy, current research suggests trans women still maintain an edge in strength.

The website is probably the biggest German news broadcaster, so no need to take it with a pinch of salt - it is state-funded and as serious source as there is.

[eversonpoe]

everything you're saying comes from a place of ignorance and thinly veiled transphobia. i'm going to ask you one more time - leave this thread. you have no place in this conversation. i don't want you here.

get the fuck out of this thread, decadent. now.

[cdm]

You’re not very good at this.

[BRoswell]

Having a slight advantage doesn't equal an automatic winner. If that was the case, then people might as well not compete against anyone who has trained longer or had more experience overall. This fear-mongering nonsense is just ridiculous.

[botley]

May as well ban Michael Phelps from competing at everything... biological advantages from nose to asshole.

[decadent]

get the fuck out of this thread, decadent. now.

So giving examples, providing research and facts is now called transphobia? I guess everything that doesnt fit your agenda you just call transphobia these days and prefer to use emotions instead of a discussion with facts.

Anyway, I lost enough of my time in this thread, no point to try to discuss a general topic, when all I get back is hate and personal attacks. And you should really think of the hypocrisy in this.

[Swykk]

You aren’t the victim but you are right about one thing—you should definitely stop posting in this thread and you did waste time doing so.

[snaapz]

This is a public forum and thread, not all conversations and discussions go the way you want. You cannot tell people to fuck off and go away if they disagree with some of your views. But good constructive discussions are highly encouraged, not repetitive rants followed by additional rants.

I was also told to go away, even though I am in support of transgender rights. If what you see in the mirror makes you happy then rock it; but I did point out that the current situations and events are creating turmoil and that some things have gotten too far out of hand, I'll never ever ever say that there are more than two genders even though I now face suspension from school or being fired. And "gender identity" is between a child, their parent, and a Dr. Keep it out of schools.

Wake up, the worlds opinion of transgender is heading in the wrong direction after so much work, effort, and progress had been made.

It used to be so simple, now it's politicized and complicated.

[cdm]

You keep saying you support trans rights and then immediately start spouting exclusionary talking points and phrases. You both should not confuse people calling you on your bullshit with a refusal to engage in constructive discussion. Conflating the two is another common tactic and it's not going to work here.

[snaapz]

You keep saying you support trans rights and then immediately start spouting exclusionary talking points and phrases. You both should not confuse people calling you on your bullshit with a refusal to engage in constructive discussion. Conflating the two is another common tactic and it's not going to work here.

You are proving my point, either accept transgender 100% with zero dispute or else you're a bigot, shameful, discredited.

What exactly bothers you about what I said and what specifically is "exclusionary" about what I said?

Caitlyn Jenner and many other transgender people have different opinions too and don't agree on everything.

My belief is that the current situation is too heated and filled with turmoil, pushing harder and faster is not the right approach right now. I want things to progress but evidently the way things are being done today are not working out so well, and perhaps some ideas need to be put on the back burner for now.

[cdm]

You are proving my point, either accept transgender 100% with zero dispute or else you're a bigot, shameful, discredited.

What exactly bothers you about what I said and what specifically is "exclusionary" about what I said?

You asked this, several of us answered, and then you ask it again. "I'll never ever ever say that there are more than two genders..." is a thing you said. Only one group of people are saying that collection of words and it surely isn't the one honestly advocating for trans rights. "Keep it out of schools". Rinse and repeat.

"It used to be so simple, now it's politicized and complicated." Gee I fucking wonder who engineered that? Not the ones attempting to legislate trans people out of existence! Let's blame those uppity trans folk instead!

[BRoswell]

What exactly bothers you about what I said and what specifically is "exclusionary" about what I said?

You're the one that said being trans was simply a fetish for people and that it shouldn't be forced on others. I'd say that's pretty exclusionary.

And bringing up Caitlyn Jenner as an example is pretty laughable considering how much she's profited off being trans yet doesn't want others to enjoy the same rewards. She's just another rich, white, Republican asshole, trans or not.

[snaapz]

You asked this, several of us answered, and then you ask it again. "I'll never ever ever say that there are more than two genders..." is a thing you said. Only one group of people are saying that collection of words and it surely isn't the one honestly advocating for trans rights. "Keep it out of schools". Rinse and repeat.

"It used to be so simple, now it's politicized and complicated." Gee I fucking wonder who engineered that? Not the ones attempting to legislate trans people out of existence! Let's blame those uppity trans folk instead!

I believe there are two genders, what's wrong with that? "Gender identity is how you feel about yourself and the ways you express your gender and biological sex" Therefore I believe that gender is based on sex. I'm not saying I'm right, its just my opinion. I think people should be comfortable with their sex and accept their biology; but not let it stand in the way of being who they want to be.

It's not just politicians who are against transgender rights, in certain states its the people who feel this way and push for old traditions, beliefs, and values. I'm not saying they are right, its just a fact that needs to be realized. Also many parents are vocal about what is being taught in the classroom, many parents think that certain topics and discussions do not belong in JK-6. Sexual orientation doesn't belong in a grade 2 classroom.

Today we see men selling tampons and wearing them in their anus, we see men selling bras and leggings and prancing around, we see men holding babies saying "Im your Dad, you came from my tummy", we also see some age regression which raises red flags with people. Realize that the general population needs time to adjust and accept things, it cannot be forced too quickly or else we face backlash in many forms.

This thread is 'Trans Rights' and I'm discussing some of the roadblocks and issues the community is facing, and what might be causing backlash. Choose to ignore it and pretend everything is fine, or realize more work needs to be done.

I believe that we should let the dust settle and not add more fuel to the fire, otherwise we risk more backlash, turmoil, hate.

What are your thoughts?

[cdm]

Today we see men selling tampons and wearing them in their anus, we see men selling bras and leggings and prancing around, we see men holding babies saying "Im your Dad, you came from my tummy", we also see some age regression which raises red flags with people. Realize that the general population needs time to adjust and accept things, it cannot be forced too quickly or else we face backlash in many forms.

What the in the everloving fuck.

[BRoswell]

Your argument is basically "trans people shouldn't push so hard because it upsets transphobic people", as if not doing so would suddenly make those people more accepting of trans people.

You don't support trans rights. You support "hey, you can do whatever you want so long as its kept in the closet and away from me". Just because you're not calling for their deaths doesn't make you less of a transphobe.


What the in the everloving fuck.

My thoughts exactly. Where the hell are you seeing this stuff happening?

[cdm]

I think you should talk and listen to people who are trans to understand what they deal with and what the real issues are instead of paying attention to the scare tactics around grooming kids at drag shows and child indoctrination in second grade. Those are things that aren't happening. It's the same ol' song and dance. Same as CRT. Same as Defund the Police. IT'S THE SAME. SET. OF. TACTICS AND TALKING POINTS. Don't blame the trans community for that. It's not their playbook. And you certainly shouldn't blame them when you fall for it. And it's exceedingly clear you have.

[decadent]

Your argument is basically "trans people shouldn't push so hard because it upsets transphobic people", as if not doing so would suddenly make those people more accepting of trans people.

You don't support trans rights. You support "hey, you can do whatever you want so long as its kept in the closet and away from me". Just because you're not calling for their deaths doesn't make you less of a transphobe.

What he means is, I assume, that if you push too hard you will upset not only transphobic people but also normal people, that are in the middle and say, whatever, live and let live. It is not only transphobic and 100% trans rights, there is middle ground for people that dont agree with everything and dont accept 100% of the trans rights. And that doesnt mean they are transphobic, it means they have an opinion on certain topics and they stand behind them. Like for example that trans women have an advantage in sports or that convicted rapists should not be in womens prisons, because they identify as women. Just two examples.

[snaapz]

You're the one that said being trans was simply a fetish for people and that it shouldn't be forced on others. I'd say that's pretty exclusionary.

And bringing up Caitlyn Jenner as an example is pretty laughable considering how much she's profited off being trans yet doesn't want others to enjoy the same rewards. She's just another rich, white, Republican asshole, trans or not.


- When did I say it's "simply a fetish"? I was discussing a very real rule among certain communities who know their limits and boundaries. If you were involved you would know that. Like it or not many people view TG as a fetish, I don't. Social media is starting to label some TGs as men dressed up as little girls, don't ignore this type of stuff and fix it right away.
- I was unaware that Caitlyn was just a rich, white, republican asshole. Now I know.


I'm discussing the problems trans community is still facing. This thread is titled 'Trans Rights' and we are discussing why some rights are withheld and what might be driving that. I'm not against transgender rights, albeit I don't agree on 100%. I'm highlighting issues.

[cdm]

- When did I say it's "simply a fetish"? I was discussing a very real rule among certain communities who know their limits and boundaries. If you were involved you would know that. Like it or not many people view TG as a fetish, I don't. Social media is starting to label some TGs as men dressed up as little girls, don't ignore this type of stuff and fix it right away.
- I was unaware that Caitlyn was just a rich, white, republican asshole. Now I know.

You brought up an unnamed fetish and the associated rules to compare, somehow, to the day-to-day of trans people. "If you were involved..." Yeah well we're not. And it sounds something like a secret society...which...fine more power to you. But the trans community does not what a secret society. They want to live their fucking lives. They don't want a secret handshake or even special fucking treatment. They just want to exist and live and, god forbid, thrive. So when you bring up a fetish YOU are equating trans to said fetish. Otherwise why even mention it??

And really, you don't know Caitlyn Jenner's politics? Come on.

[BRoswell]

- When did I say it's "simply a fetish"?


We also have an rule which no one disputes and everyone follows, it's extremely frowned upon to involve people in your fetish/kink without their permission. Forcing someone to call you Mrs against their will and then shaming them for refusing to goes against multiple rules.

It took me a very long time to accept that these lifestyles are branded kink/fetish.

And if you don't believe it's fetish, why did you bring it up in the first place?


Social media is starting to label some TGs as men dressed up as little girls, don't ignore this type of stuff and fix it right away.

How is that the fault of trans people? There's a lot of idiots who think anyone who is LGBTQ+ is a pedophile too, but apparently that's our fault, not theirs for thinking that way.

[snaapz]

And if you don't believe it's fetish, why did you bring it up in the first place?



How is that the fault of trans people? There's a lot of idiots who think anyone who is LGBTQ+ is a pedophile too, but apparently that's our fault, not theirs for thinking that way.

You're right and I was wrong, I can admit that. I didn't mean to label TG as a fetish.

[Toadflax]

what specifically is "exclusionary" about what I said?


I believe there are two genders

You are making it so easy to just quote two things you said that contradict each other. You keep saying 1) I'm so inclusive; I support trans rights; you can be whoever you want! and 2) There are only two genders; I'm not trans...or anything "of that nature;" being trans is a fetish (I see you recanted on this; thank you); keep it out of schools; trans men are having babies and posting videos about it (which apparently makes you so sick you've referenced it three times now); and whatever the fuck your tampon rant above is.

The formula of almost all of your posts is: (vague nice thing about trans / non-binary people) BUT (extremely shitty thing about trans / non-binary people).

And what's frustrating is I get the deeper point you're trying to make. You're trying to say that the more loud and proud people of a marginalized, largely liberal community are, the more defensive conservatives are going to get, which could damage the movement rather than help it. But you're not saying that. You're saying things that feel dismissive of trans people and outright hateful of non-binary people.

If you want to have a civilized discussion in this thread about these issues, you can't keep citing examples of trans people's behavior in ways that makes it sound like you want to vomit. You can say, "this person/community did this thing; I'm concerned this is going to negatively impact lawmakers and be detrimental to the greater movement." You can't say things that sound like, "look at these fucks prancing around. I mean, I fully support them, but only as long as they stay out of my face and keep their mouths shut and you know what maybe they should just stay in their houses at all times."

[eversonpoe]

also, snaapz, you keep equating gender with sexuality. being trans has NOTHING to do with sexuality, at all. full-stop.

you also keep refusing to acknowledge the existence of non-binary people, and you are literally spouting the exact same language that blatant transphobes use to justify their hatred.


I'll never ever ever say that there are more than two genders even though I now face suspension from school or being fired.

why? how does this affect you negatively? seriously, please answer me, because i've repeatedly asked you to do so, to give me an example of how trans and non-binary people's existence and request for respect affects you in ANY way, and you have ignored it.

and yes, the DECISION to transition is between the trans person, their doctor, and, if they're a minor and their family is safe and supportive, their parent(s). but the ACCEPTANCE of a person as trans by ANYONE should NOT BE AN ISSUE.

[snaapz]

You are making it so easy to just quote two things you said that contradict each other. You keep saying 1) I'm so inclusive; I support trans rights; you can be whoever you want! and 2) There are only two genders; I'm not trans...or anything "of that nature;" being trans is a fetish (I see you recanted on this; thank you); keep it out of schools; trans men are having babies and posting videos about it (which apparently makes you so sick you've referenced it three times now); and whatever the fuck your tampon rant above is.

The formula of almost all of your posts is: (vague nice thing about trans / non-binary people) BUT (extremely shitty thing about trans / non-binary people).

And what's frustrating is I get the deeper point you're trying to make. You're trying to say that the more loud and proud people of a marginalized, largely liberal community are, the more defensive conservatives are going to get, which could damage the movement rather than help it. But you're not saying that. You're saying things that feel dismissive of trans people and outright hateful of non-binary people.

If you want to have a civilized discussion in this thread about these issues, you can't keep citing examples of trans people's behavior in ways that makes it sound like you want to vomit. You can say, "this person/community did this thing; I'm concerned this is going to negatively impact lawmakers and be detrimental to the greater movement." You can't say things that sound like, "look at these fucks prancing around. I mean, I fully support them, but only as long as they stay out of my face and keep their mouths shut and you know what maybe they should just stay in their houses at all times."

It doesn't sicken me nor do I want to vomit. I'm worried that it sickens the general population, and based on recent news, backlash, politics, podcasts, and social media I believe that there's more turmoil today than there was a year ago. I also believe that too much exposure too quickly will not help with acceptance, rather it will cause undecided people to shy away and lean right.

I mention tampons (https://www.newsweek.com/boycott-tampax-trends-company-slammed-trans-sponsors-1761556)and leggings (https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/dylan-mulvaney-nike-ad-bud-light-vp-b2318812.html) because they are recent events and I fear that these events are fuelling confusion, misinterpretations, and anger. Drag Queen shows at schools are happening today (https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2023/04/12/international-day-of-pink-celebration-planned-for-tdsb-students-with-stonewall-riots-survivor.html) and even though this protest is led by some rebel news asshole, it's not going smoothly for the LGBTQ2S+ community, and people are questioning why a drag show is even happening at a school (https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/parental-rights-movement-us-canada-1.6796070). Sports (https://www.westernstandard.news/news/female-swimmer-denied-trophy-in-favour-of-transgender-male/article_eed97c0e-bf67-11ed-948d-830db5b1f8b7.html)is a big discussion and maybe it's time to rethink things, rather than put a transgender woman in a 'Woman's Swimming Event' maybe we need to create a 'Swimming Event' which does not discriminate against gender at all. It's time to drop Mens and Womens sports and just play sports.

As for men giving birth (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-64495574), society will need time to get used to this and understand how it all works. Pausing hormones to transition back to female, then after they deliver the baby they revert back to male to raise the baby as its father. Can you blame society for being reluctant to embrace this on day 1 with open arms.

We have laws being introduced which support trans rights (https://women-gender-equality.canada.ca/en/free-to-be-me.html), and we have laws being introduced which attack trans rights (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/23/republicans-target-lgbtq-rights-new-laws). The divide is supported by real people, its evident that people are leaning right and I fear it's driven by some of these rare extreme cases.

[eversonpoe]

...maybe we need to create a 'Swimming Event' which does not discriminate against gender at all. It's time to drop Mens and Womens sports and just play sports.

this is literally the only worthwhile thing you've contributed to this discussion.

also, i'm still waiting for you to respond to my various questions, since you refuse to leave this thread.

[Toadflax]

It doesn't sicken me nor do I want to vomit. I'm worried that it sickens the general population, and based on recent news, backlash, politics, podcasts, and social media I believe that there's more turmoil today than there was a year ago. I also believe that too much exposure too quickly will not help with acceptance, rather it will cause undecided people to shy away and lean right.

I mention tampons (https://www.newsweek.com/boycott-tampax-trends-company-slammed-trans-sponsors-1761556)and leggings (https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/dylan-mulvaney-nike-ad-bud-light-vp-b2318812.html) because they are recent events and I fear that these events are fuelling confusion, misinterpretations, and anger. Drag Queen shows at schools are happening today (https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2023/04/12/international-day-of-pink-celebration-planned-for-tdsb-students-with-stonewall-riots-survivor.html) and even though this protest is led by some rebel news asshole, it's not going smoothly for the LGBTQ2S+ community, and people are questioning why a drag show is even happening at a school (https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/parental-rights-movement-us-canada-1.6796070). Sports (https://www.westernstandard.news/news/female-swimmer-denied-trophy-in-favour-of-transgender-male/article_eed97c0e-bf67-11ed-948d-830db5b1f8b7.html)is a big discussion and maybe it's time to rethink things, rather than put a transgender woman in a 'Woman's Swimming Event' maybe we need to create a 'Swimming Event' which does not discriminate against gender at all. It's time to drop Mens and Womens sports and just play sports.

As for men giving birth (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-64495574), society will need time to get used to this and understand how it all works. Pausing hormones to transition back to female, then after they deliver the baby they revert back to male to raise the baby as its father. Can you blame society for being reluctant to embrace this on day 1 with open arms.

We have laws being introduced which support trans rights (https://women-gender-equality.canada.ca/en/free-to-be-me.html), and we have laws being introduced which attack trans rights (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/23/republicans-target-lgbtq-rights-new-laws). The divide is supported by real people, its evident that people are leaning right and I fear it's driven by some of these rare extreme cases.

You did it!

Now look at the difference between these phrasings:

"Today we see men selling tampons and wearing them in their anus, we see men selling bras and leggings and prancing around"

vs.

"I mention tampons and leggings because they are recent events and I fear that these events are fuelling confusion, misinterpretations, and anger"

Do you see how one reads as fairly objective and focused on the greater issues while the other feels incredibly judgmental and potentially hurtful? I'm not asking you to defend your position. I'm not asking you to clarify your own feelings on the matter. I'm simply asking: do you see the difference? And if so, do you understand how one way of speaking is just going to hurt or anger people in this thread while the other can actually lead to a real, respectful discussion?

[eversonpoe]

just wanna say thanks to my friends in this thread who are being respectful and true allies

i do think it's weird that the people in here who are arguing seem to be pretty consistently ignoring me and only responding to y'all, tho

[cdm]

You cannot blame the trans community for confusion and misinformation purposefully distributed and amplified by bad actors. The "Drag Queen show" article you link is a nice little encapsulation: LGBTQ talk about the history of their struggle and right wing chuds outside protest the scandalous sex show that isn't happening inside. Men giving birth?...I don't even fucking know because that has nothing to do with trans rights nor do tampon hashtags or whatever else.

[eversonpoe]

Pausing hormones to transition back to female, then after they deliver the baby they revert back to male to raise the baby as its father.

fyi - pausing hormones doesn't cause someone to "transition back to female" but it IS recommended during pregnancy to make sure that hormone balances are optimal for supporting the pregnancy

[GulDukat]

Today we see men selling tampons and wearing them in their anus...

I'm pretty sure men have sold tampons as long as they have been around.

Wearing them in their anus? Haven't heard that before.

[eversonpoe]

Wearing them in their anus? Haven't heard that before.

yeah because it's not true, it's propaganda meant to demonize trans people

[cdm]

yeah because it's not true, it's propaganda meant to demonize trans people

Yeah, it has the whole litter-boxes-in-schools vibe.

[Khrz]

yeah because it's not true, it's propaganda meant to demonize trans people

And it's so fucking stupid it's only meant for those who're already demonizing them... Anyone with a couple of neurons to rub together and a modicum of open-mindedness would immediately go "Huh ?"...

It's coming from people who define women through periods and pregnancy, so obviously they believe trans women do the same.

[snaapz]

yeah because it's not true, it's propaganda meant to demonize trans people


Technically now you are anti trans by saying its demonic for a transgender woman to wear a tampon.

There are, most definitely, transgender women who experience happiness and fulfillment through various methods of experiencing a menstrual cycle, so who are you to call them a demon if they experiment and like the way they feel?

[Toadflax]

Technically now you are anti trans by saying its demonic for a transgender woman to wear a tampon.

There are, most definitely, transgender women who experience happiness and fulfillment through various methods of experiencing a menstrual cycle, so who are you to call them a demon if they experiment and like the way they feel?

It's amazing how you can try to put words in someone's mouth in a text-based conversation.

[snaapz]

It's amazing how you can try to put words in someone's mouth in a text-based conversation.

That's what everyone has been doing to me. See how easy it is to take things out of context.

Then why am I painted anti trans in prev posts? I've never described an experience as demonic, I support everyone and everything that makes them happy.

[eversonpoe]

Technically now you are anti trans by saying its demonic for a transgender woman to wear a tampon.

There are, most definitely, transgender women who experience happiness and fulfillment through various methods of experiencing a menstrual cycle, so who are you to call them a demon if they experiment and like the way they feel?

oh my god are you kidding me?

[eversonpoe]

That's what everyone has been doing to me. See how easy it is to take things out of context.

Then why am I painted anti trans in prev posts? I've never described an experience as demonic, I support everyone and everything that makes them happy.

i said that it's PROPAGANDA MEANT TO DEMONIZE TRANS PEOPLE which i am obviously decrying! that is NOT the same as what you have been doing! and you also CONTINUE to ignore my requests for you to answer questions i've directly asked you

[Toadflax]

That's what everyone has been doing to me. See how easy it is to take things out of context.

Then why am I painted anti trans in prev posts? I've never described an experience as demonic, I support everyone and everything that makes them happy.

No, I have quoted your exact words back to you to show how shitty you're being. You turned "it's propaganda meant to demonize trans people" into "who are you to call them a demon." You took words that were sitting right there and just turned them into something else.

[snaapz]

i said that it's PROPAGANDA MEANT TO DEMONIZE TRANS PEOPLE which i am obviously decrying! that is NOT the same as what you have been doing! and you also CONTINUE to ignore my requests for you to answer questions i've directly asked you

Sorry I missed it, what questions do you have?

[eversonpoe]

Sorry I missed it, what questions do you have?

see below:


also, snaapz, you keep equating gender with sexuality. being trans has NOTHING to do with sexuality, at all. full-stop.

you also keep refusing to acknowledge the existence of non-binary people, and you are literally spouting the exact same language that blatant transphobes use to justify their hatred.



why? how does this affect you negatively? seriously, please answer me, because i've repeatedly asked you to do so, to give me an example of how trans and non-binary people's existence and request for respect affects you in ANY way, and you have ignored it.

and yes, the DECISION to transition is between the trans person, their doctor, and, if they're a minor and their family is safe and supportive, their parent(s). but the ACCEPTANCE of a person as trans by ANYONE should NOT BE AN ISSUE.


this is literally the only worthwhile thing you've contributed to this discussion.

also, i'm still waiting for you to respond to my various questions, since you refuse to leave this thread.

[snaapz]

No, I have quoted your exact words back to you to show how shitty you're being. You turned "it's propaganda meant to demonize trans people" into "who are you to call them a demon." You took words that were sitting right there and just turned them into something else.

eversonpoe said the media is using certain topics as propaganda and demonizing the transgender community. I am also discussing how these topics are creating turmoil, I'm not saying it, I'm referencing real articles and pain points.

As for my actual opinions, I support transgender rights, be who you are and dont let anything stand in your way, let me know what I can do to help, silence is violence!

But, because I admit that I have trouble saying there's more than 2 genders I am a shitty person?

[eversonpoe]

eversonpoe said the media is using certain topics as propaganda and demonizing the transgender community. I am also discussing how these topics are creating turmoil, I'm not saying it, I'm referencing real articles and pain points.

As for my actual opinions, I support transgender rights, be who you are and dont let anything stand in your way, let me know what I can do to help, silence is violence!

But, because I admit that I have trouble saying there's more than 2 genders I am a shitty person?

do you not see how those second and third sentences are mutually exclusive?

you can't support trans rights and say "be who you are and don't let anything stand in your way!" and then turn around and say "there are only 2 genders"

you either DO or DON'T support trans rights.

now answer my questions about how ANY of this affects you even remotely negatively in any way.

[snaapz]

give me an example of how trans and non-binary people's existence and request for respect affects you in ANY way, and you have ignored it.

Anyone and everyone who is a part of the LGBTQ2S+ community, non-binary included, has no negative impact on me. I love my friends, I love you, and I love everyone. What does affect me is the amount of hate and violence experienced by people who are just wanting to go about their business. Everywhere I look I see the left and the right fighting one another, and the divide is far more separated than ever before and things are getting worse. I wish everyone would pause and let the dust settle.

An example of how trans and non-binary people's existence and request for respect affects me in ANY way is that its helped me cope and accept myself. It's a complicated journey with many routes and end points. Not being alone has had a huge impact, hearing stories of others who knew who they were since they were 3 years old made me realize I'm not alone, and I'm not a freak.

[eversonpoe]

1646582575601975297

this right here is why we can't just slow down and "take the win", snaapz

we are getting closer and closer to the reality of an attempt at trans genocide. so any effort at "politeness" or not "rocking the boat" too hard or whatever you think we should be doing? it's too fucking late for that. it was already bad enough that trans people were getting murdered at a steady pace, now they're trying to stop us from existing.

and in case you don't actually take the time to read that tweet, it makes it nearly impossible for trans ADULTS to get gender-affirming care. that is absolutely unconscionable.

[Toadflax]

eversonpoe said the media is using certain topics as propaganda and demonizing the transgender community.

Close. She said it was being used as propaganda meant to demonize trans people. Then in your response, you said SHE was saying "it's demonic" and was "calling them a demon."

Why is this so difficult for you?

[eversonpoe]

give me an example of how trans and non-binary people's existence and request for respect affects you in ANY way, and you have ignored it.

Anyone and everyone who is a part of the LGBTQ2S+ community, non-binary included, has no negative impact on me. I love my friends, I love you, and I love everyone. What does affect me is the amount of hate and violence experienced by people who are just wanting to go about their business. Everywhere I look I see the left and the right fighting one another, and the divide is far more separated than ever before and things are getting worse. I wish everyone would pause and let the dust settle.

An example of how trans and non-binary people's existence and request for respect affects me in ANY way is that its helped me cope and accept myself. It's a complicated journey with many routes and end points. Not being alone has had a huge impact, hearing stories of others who knew who they were since they were 3 years old made me realize I'm not alone, and I'm not a freak.

then why are you sitting here saying you refuse to acknowledge that there are more than 2 genders? why are you sitting here posting links to stories that villainize trans & non-binary people? why are you CONSISTENTLY ARGUING WITH ME AND ACTING LIKE MY LIFE EXPERIENCE AS A TRANS PERSON HAS NO MERIT?

[GulDukat]

Years ago I read a book for a class called Queer Theory, Gender Theory: An Instant Primer by Riki Wilchins. I think the general public might benefit from reading it. It helped me understand the false dichotomy of being male/female and made me see gender differently.

[snaapz]

I'll end it with this. Carry on like nothing is wrong and everything is okay.

In reality everything is not okay and all of the reasons I mentioned are real problems which are detrimental to progress, in many cases things are getting worse.

I have obviously upset everyone by highlighting some of the issues that exist, if you don't face and realize the facts then you'll never understand why people are angry and against you.

[eversonpoe]

I'll end it with this. Carry on like nothing is wrong and everything is okay.

In reality everything is not okay and all of the reasons I mentioned are real problems which are detrimental to progress, in many cases things are getting worse.

I have obviously upset everyone by highlighting some of the issues that exist, if you don't face and realize the facts then you'll never understand why people are angry and against you.

people are angry and against trans people because of religious zealotry, misinformation, ignorance, and blind hatred. it's REALLY that simple.

trans people are a threat to ABSOLUTELY NO ONE and yet people want us to die, just like people of color during the civil rights movement, just like jews and queer people (and trans people!) during the holocaust. it's all based on hatred with no foundation other than to uphold some bullshit stance—whether it's based in religion, nationalism, racism, etc.—that prevents the status quo from changing.

also, when have any of us ever implied that nothing is wrong? i started this thread because there are SO MANY THINGS WRONG, but they're NOT COMING FROM TRANS PEOPLE! i really do not understand you.

[Khrz]

I have obviously upset everyone by highlighting some of the issues that exist, if you don't face and realize the facts then you'll never understand why people are angry and against you.

I believe you've upset everyone because your position is that people under constant threat of harm and death should stop being confrontational about it. Somehow, the people who wish they'd disappear will accept their existence if trans people could just kindly turn the other cheek. It would somehow appease the tensions.

And everyone understands that what you're advising merely means dying in silence, erased, and denied. Just like every oppressed minority in the history of the world, trans people exist, and wish to do so freely and peacefully.
Never, in history, have any minority been spared by their aggressors because they kept a low profile. Never have their voices been better heard through silence.

That you insist in appeasing the other side of this issue rather than defending those who fear for their existence, is what causes everyone's frustration and anger.

[snaapz]

Then do the opposite of what I think should be done.

Push harder and stay on the current course and watch the general pop become even more angry, watch the laws get worse, and watch rights get taken away. Just like they are today.

You confuse my approach with giving up and giving in.


Majority of Americans reject anti-trans bills, but support for this restriction is risingA majority of Americans oppose restrictions on LGBTQ+ people, yet the latest PBS NewsHour/NPR/Marist poll shows support for such laws is growing as many Republican state and local lawmakers pursue hundreds of bills targeting LGBTQ+ rights around the country.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/majority-of-americans-reject-anti-trans-bills-but-support-for-this-restriction-is-rising

[eversonpoe]

Then do the opposite of what I think should be done.

Push harder and stay on the current course and watch the general pop become even more angry, watch the laws get worse, and watch rights get taken away. Just like they are today.

You confuse my approach with giving up and giving in.


Majority of Americans reject anti-trans bills, but support for this restriction is rising

A majority of Americans oppose restrictions on LGBTQ+ people, yet the latest PBS NewsHour/NPR/Marist poll shows support for such laws is growing as many Republican state and local lawmakers pursue hundreds of bills targeting LGBTQ+ rights around the country.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/majority-of-americans-reject-anti-trans-bills-but-support-for-this-restriction-is-rising

ok so what is your ACTUAL solution? what do you propose we do? other than sit back and let them strip away our rights until they get to kill us?

[cdm]

Majority of Americans reject anti-trans bills, but support for this restriction is rising

A majority of Americans oppose restrictions on LGBTQ+ people, yet the latest PBS NewsHour/NPR/Marist poll shows support for such laws is growing as many Republican state and local lawmakers pursue hundreds of bills targeting LGBTQ+ rights around the country.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/majority-of-americans-reject-anti-trans-bills-but-support-for-this-restriction-is-rising

Did it occur to you that probably has more to do with the bullshit fear mongering and disinformation campaigns rather than the volume at which trans people scream "HEY PLEASE DONT KILL US?"

[BRoswell]

ok so what is your ACTUAL solution? what do you propose we do? other than sit back and let them strip away our rights until they get to kill us?

Their solution is for you to just sit on your hands and wait for the fundamentalist Christians, who believe they are waging a holy war against demonic forces invading their sacred country, to cool off and say "Whoopsie! Got a bit hot under the collar there. Let's be friends!"

Let's be real here: people are going to be pissed off no matter what. People are still pissed off that black people and women have the right to vote and not be treated like trash. Are we supposed to just kowtow to these bigots forever? Fuck that shit, and fuck those people forever and ever.

Social change is painful and agonizing and never goes as fast as you want it to, but if you don't keep your foot on the gas, nothing will happen. History has shown that time and again, so the idea that trans people should just relax, "take the win", and not push aggressively for their right to exist and not be targeted by bigots is absurd.

[Ruined]

To me what is often said about power can be applied to Civil Rights: It's never given, you have to take it. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or clueless. Fuck off to anyone who tells you to politely wait and hope someone decides you deserve to be treated like a human being and allowed to enjoy basic human rights.

[snaapz]

My first post here was an effort to try offer some comfort, I said not to focus on the media and I guess I babbled some garbage that didn't help. I did say that things are heated right now and maybe its a good idea to let the dust settle. I never ever suggested to give up or give in.

I mentioned some tough topics and it's as if I'm the bad person, but they are real events from real transgender people and for some reason it upsets people here.

Honest question.

There are a lot of different movements and groups of people who are achieving their goals, gaining support, and making change at a good pace.

Why is it that the transgender community is currently faced with more push back, hate, and rejection than other groups have dealt with? Does it have to do with religion? Being Gay? Mental Health? People fearing for their children? Sharing a washroom? Fears of losing touch with heritage and tradition? Sports? Education System?

Is it because the general population does not understand what transgender is and what it means to be transgender? Some big changes are being asked and you cannot blame the other side for being hesitant. For example, 'A male give birth. He was impregnated by a female.' These are real things now.

Figure out what people are so afraid of and work on it, which is why I sparked conversation. But rather than discuss it most people here just got angry at me for mentioning real issues.

I've seen church mentioned several times. Is religion the driver?

[snaapz]

1646582575601975297

this right here is why we can't just slow down and "take the win", @snaapz (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=1579)

we are getting closer and closer to the reality of an attempt at trans genocide. so any effort at "politeness" or not "rocking the boat" too hard or whatever you think we should be doing? it's too fucking late for that. it was already bad enough that trans people were getting murdered at a steady pace, now they're trying to stop us from existing.

and in case you don't actually take the time to read that tweet, it makes it nearly impossible for trans ADULTS to get gender-affirming care. that is absolutely unconscionable.

I'll reply since you tagged me. Rather than a tweet here is a link to the entire ER, the one you shared is partial. https://ago.mo.gov/docs/default-source/press-releases/2023-04-13---emergency-reg.pdf?sfvrsn=7f78d4fc_2

I am not sure how I feel about preventing treatment to people with autism, there are so many spectrum's I don't even know what this means. Obviously a non verbal mentally undeveloped child should never get all of the same treatments that other people get. But a functional person with autistic tendencies should not be denied. There are so many spectrum's in between, this part is unclear.

As for the rest, some of the decisions in this ER are based on findings from WPATH, who I am unaware of and I assume is actually on LGBTQs side.

Safeguards are a good thing to have in place. Fifteen therapy sessions is not the end of the world nor is it genocide, it's actually saving lives. Meeting with a good, professional, licensed, graduated psychologist is not a bad thing.


22.The World Professional Association for Transgender Health(“WPATH”)has acknowledged,“In most children, gender dysphoria will disappear before,or early in,puberty” and
23.Many medical, hormonal,or surgical transition interventions are irreversible.
11.A study of 1,655 parental reports found that “parents tended to rate their children as worse off after transition” and “that parents believed gender clinicians and clinics pressured the families toward transition”
18.Puberty suppression presents a risk of stunted growth and failure to attain normal peak bone density
A study spanning 5 decade of almost 5,000 transgenderpeople who had received cross-sex hormones, regardless of treatment type,nevert he less showed a“two- fold increased mortality risk,”which “did not decrease over time”

A lot of the sections in this ER are concerning and have serious health risks.

So, waiting 3 years and 15 therapy sessions is a safeguard and a good thing, not genocide.

LGBTQ should be pounding on WPATHs doors because they just supported "genocide" and obviously fabricated false studies and reports.

What bothers you about this ER?

[theruiner]

So, waiting 3 years and 15 therapy sessions is a safeguard and a good thing, not genocide.

This is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard. Absolutely sickening.

Unless you are trans and you know what it is like to suffer from dysphoria then you can shut the entire fuck up.

[theruiner]

But while I'm here, let's set the record straight on some things.

The regret rates for children are EXTREMELY low.

https://journals.lww.com/annalsplasticsurgery/Abstract/2022/05004/Gender_Affirming_Mastectomy_Trends_and_Surgical.4. aspx
https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/2/e2021056082/186992/Gender-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition
https://www.thedailybeast.com/transgender-teens-dont-abandon-hormone-therapy-as-adults-study-finds
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/avivastahl/transgender-trans-kids-healthcare-science?fbclid=IwAR3ykhqxB87CE92NUzsAPIV9DtJMAAd5Z U6snpHB6iVZ-tDj4E3WFnB0770
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32273193/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32839079/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1102686?fbclid=IwAR1zya634wWcftnzkAZ7lQ0YrW9-wYX06evYlBQ35qhA1hKu1DLNnfDod1M
https://www.gendergp.com/evidenced-research-on-detransition-regret-newsnight/
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/health/transgender-puberty-blockers-suicide-study/index.html?fbclid=IwAR08PaIIFgHKlsJqg4bO23XP81Ivd9 DdXKlFDChuPq0T3WBI-gTfC_1NX88
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/sex-reassignment-outcomes-and-predictors-of-treatment-for-adolescent-and-adult-transsexuals/D000472406C5F6E1BD4E6A37BC7550A4



The "most kids grow out of it before puberty" thing is also a complete myth.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1510327925144440835


There have been over two decades of studies into this and they have shown, overWHELMINGLY that gender affirming care is the best course of treatment. Here are over 50 studies showing exactly that.

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/


There is a literal genocide going on against trans people in this country. For you to come in here and try to say that we should have to wait THREE YEARS for life-saving treatment is not only absurd, it's fucking monstrous. I don't care if these posts are against the rules, aren't polite, get me in trouble, whatever. I'm done being nice to bigots. The time for politeness is fucking over.

[snaapz]

This is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard. Absolutely sickening.

Unless you are trans and you know what it is like to suffer from dysphoria then you can shut the entire fuck up.

So you disagree with WPATH and their recommendations and the studies? Because I am agreeing with WPATH, they have used facts and studies to recommend this approach.


Again the facts and reasons which explain what I said have been ignored, rather than discuss this I am once again told to fuck off with zero context.

If what I said is wrong then WPATH needs to be held accountable for fabricating false studies and publishing false results. You're angry at me and for listening to WPATH and providing facts and research WPATH provided. Telling me to fuck off makes zero sense.

I said I was not aware of WPATH and assumed they were legitimate, they sound and appear legit with transgender members on their board.

Rather than telling me to fuck off you could have said ... "there is a lot of scandal with this false organization who have time after time proven that they are not working in the interest of the transgender community"


https://genderreport.ca/bias-not-evidence-dominate-transgender-standard-of-care/

[snaapz]

But while I'm here, let's set the record straight on some things.

The regret rates for children are EXTREMELY low.

https://journals.lww.com/annalsplasticsurgery/Abstract/2022/05004/Gender_Affirming_Mastectomy_Trends_and_Surgical.4. aspx
https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/2/e2021056082/186992/Gender-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition
https://www.thedailybeast.com/transgender-teens-dont-abandon-hormone-therapy-as-adults-study-finds
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/avivastahl/transgender-trans-kids-healthcare-science?fbclid=IwAR3ykhqxB87CE92NUzsAPIV9DtJMAAd5Z U6snpHB6iVZ-tDj4E3WFnB0770
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32273193/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32839079/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1102686?fbclid=IwAR1zya634wWcftnzkAZ7lQ0YrW9-wYX06evYlBQ35qhA1hKu1DLNnfDod1M
https://www.gendergp.com/evidenced-research-on-detransition-regret-newsnight/
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/health/transgender-puberty-blockers-suicide-study/index.html?fbclid=IwAR08PaIIFgHKlsJqg4bO23XP81Ivd9 DdXKlFDChuPq0T3WBI-gTfC_1NX88
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/sex-reassignment-outcomes-and-predictors-of-treatment-for-adolescent-and-adult-transsexuals/D000472406C5F6E1BD4E6A37BC7550A4



The "most kids grow out of it before puberty" thing is also a complete myth.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1510327925144440835


There have been over two decades of studies into this and they have shown, overWHELMINGLY that gender affirming care is the best course of treatment. Here are over 50 studies showing exactly that.

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/


There is a literal genocide going on against trans people in this country. For you to come in here and try to say that we should have to wait THREE YEARS for life-saving treatment is not only absurd, it's fucking monstrous. I don't care if these posts are against the rules, aren't polite, get me in trouble, whatever. I'm done being nice to bigots. The time for politeness is fucking over.


Thank you! My opinion of WPATH and the MR has changed and it's now clear that misinformation is a serious issue. The general population is not aware of this stuff so they believe what they see and hear.

[botley]

Wow, you mean the things people with lived experience say about their lives are true?? And the opposite narrative is based in ignorance of the issue??? Whodathunkit!?

[cdm]

Again the facts and reasons which explain what I said have been ignored, rather than discuss this I am once again told to fuck off with zero context.

The "facts" have been ignored because they're not facts, instead either disinformation, obfuscation, falsehoods, or feelings based on nothing relevant. And there's been plenty of context in this thread, including actual trans people telling you about their experiences. ** Three years and 15 appointments can quite literally be the difference between life and death **. Literally. Imagine telling a cancer patient they have to wait three years for treatment. "Are you sure you want rid of this tumor?"

** edit: I’d also mention the point of this isn’t to make sure anyone is certain they’re ready to transition. The point is to make them suffer for those three years and whatever happens happens ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ “it’s a real shame [insert purposely misgendered pronoun here] died by suicide but we just wanted to make sure they were ready”

[BRoswell]

...and it's now clear that misinformation is a serious issue.

No shit. That's what nearly everyone is this thread has been saying to you.

[decadent]

No shit. That's what nearly everyone is this thread has been saying to you.

Yep, just because almost everyone in this thread says it, its true. lol How did I miss these universal truthtellers until now.

[Deacon Blackfire]

To the trans members of our community here, it's horrible enough that you have to deal with the antagonism and outright hostility and legal threats to your existence that the world is constantly throwing at you - I'm so sorry that you have to deal with such exhausting bullshit on this forum too.

[eversonpoe]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-anti-trans-laws-are-anti-science/


The actual danger comes from denying trans people the medical care they need. A 2020 study in the journal Pediatrics found that trans kids who wanted hormone treatments and did not receive them faced greater lifetime odds of suicidal thoughts than those who received “puberty blockers.” These blockers, known as gonadotropin-releasing hormone analogues, are medically safe, and their effects are reversible. The medications have been in use for decades, most often in children who begin puberty too early. For trans kids, they buy some time for young people to explore their gender identity before their bodies develop permanent secondary sex characteristics such as breasts or Adam’s apples. When they are ready, adolescents can decide whether to stop taking the blockers and continue to develop into the gender they were assigned at birth or to take gender-affirming hormones—testosterone or estrogen—to develop the features that match their gender identity.

[cdm]

I'm not sure what was taken out of context but...

1647720063452188672

The paragraphs on the right are 110% correct. It stems from a fundamental and willful misunderstanding of what it means to be LGBTQ. As a cis white dude I'll never know how that feels but I know and love people who do. Have some fucking empathy for people different than yourself. It's not hard...in fact it's a whole lot easier than the alternative.

[eversonpoe]

I'm not sure what was taken out of context but...

1647720063452188672

The paragraphs on the right are 110% correct. It stems from a fundamental and willful misunderstanding of what it means to be LGBTQ. As a cis white dude I'll never know how that feels but I know and love people who do. Have some fucking empathy for people different than yourself. It's not hard...in fact it's a whole lot easier than the alternative.

one of my heroes from childhood. i read so many of her books and they were so formative for me. i adore her even more, now.

[Jinsai]

Kink/Fetish and BSDM and different things, don't get them mixed up.

A fetish is an extremely strong devotion to something. There are sexual fetishes and nonsexual fetishes: both are obsessive interests.

Let me ask you this then, what basic rights are you seeking?

What in the actual fuck are you talking about? I'm not trans, but this isn't hard for me to understand. When I meet a woman I don't think "that's an interesting sexual kink she's got going on there... but I wish I could stop hearing about how she probably wants equal rights." I say 'good morning' and mind my own fucking business.

[eversonpoe]

What in the actual fuck are you talking about? I'm not trans, but this isn't hard for me to understand. When I meet a woman I don't think "that's an interesting sexual kink she's got going on there... but I wish I could stop hearing about how she probably wants equal rights." I say 'good morning' and mind my own fucking business.

"when i'm a walkin' i strut my stuff and i'm respectful
i'm high as a kite, i just might, stop to say hello"

[snaapz]

What in the actual fuck are you talking about? I'm not trans, but this isn't hard for me to understand. When I meet a woman I don't think "that's an interesting sexual kink she's got going on there... but I wish I could stop hearing about how she probably wants equal rights." I say 'good morning' and mind my own fucking business.

You missed the part before where someone mentioned ball gags and pissing on someone or something, ask them not me.

[snaapz]

I'm not sure what was taken out of context but...

1647720063452188672

The paragraphs on the right are 110% correct. It stems from a fundamental and willful misunderstanding of what it means to be LGBTQ. As a cis white dude I'll never know how that feels but I know and love people who do. Have some fucking empathy for people different than yourself. It's not hard...in fact it's a whole lot easier than the alternative.


You shared a tweet which reads "no child is going to become transgender or gay if they read this book..." which means you're in support of CHILDREN reading this book.

Why are people upset over books?

This book in particular has images of people sucking each others dicks with captions saying "I cant wait to have your cock in my mouth"

Why is it so hard for you to understand that parents do not want their kids exposed to books like these, if you or anyone gave this book to my child I would have you arrested.

Do you not yet understand why the general population is becoming angry?

Kids should be reading Dog Man or Goosebumps, not graphic porn.

What the hell is wrong with you.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqqPt8kaMAEP1pL.jpg

[sick among the pure]

Don't focus on the media too much, it will only bring you down. Find a good community or network of friends and like minded people.

I'm not sure what it's like in the US but here in Canada no one really cares if someone is trans, but people are getting sick of having trans rights forced upon them and shoved down their throats, it's starting to have a negative impact.

The community needs to take a stand against the extreme activists who are painting a bad image for transgenders.

A recent video shows a man, who was born a woman, holding their baby telling it "I'm your daddy, you came from my tummy". There's a line and this has crossed it.

I am part of a community (lifestyle/non sexual thing) and we know our limits and we respect the vanilla and general public.

We also have an rule which no one disputes and everyone follows, it's extremely frowned upon to involve people in your fetish/kink without their permission. Forcing someone to call you Mrs against their will and then shaming them for refusing to goes against multiple rules.

It took me a very long time to accept that these lifestyles are branded kink/fetish.

Trans has come so far, take the win and let it rest for a while because at this point the activists are only damaging the image. 100%.


You missed the part before where someone mentioned ball gags and pissing on someone or something, ask them not me.



I am part of a community (lifestyle/non sexual thing) and we know our limits and we respect the vanilla and general public.

We also have an rule which no one disputes and everyone follows, it's extremely frowned upon to involve people in your fetish/kink without their permission. Forcing someone to call you Mrs against their will and then shaming them for refusing to goes against multiple rules.

It took me a very long time to accept that these lifestyles are branded kink/fetish.

Im pretty sure you’re the one who brought up kink/fet life, and consistently compared it to being trans.
Whether you brought it up or some other bad faith actor in the thread did, you said your own words buddy.

[sick among the pure]

You shared a tweet which reads "no child is going to become transgender or gay if they read this book..." which means you're in support of CHILDREN reading this book.

Why are people upset over books?

This book in particular has images of people sucking each others dicks with captions saying "I cant wait to have your cock in my mouth"

Why is it so hard for you to understand that parents do not want their kids exposed to books like these, if you or anyone gave this book to my child I would have you arrested.

Do you not yet understand why the general population is becoming angry?

Kids should be reading Dog Man or Goosebumps, not graphic porn.

What the hell is wrong with you.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqqPt8kaMAEP1pL.jpg


Do you know any context behind that random screenshot that’s been circulating? What the book is, what’s going on in it, who has access to it, etc. I get the feeling you either know half the story with this screenshot, or you’re intentionally obscuring what’s going on.

[Toadflax]

You missed the part before where someone mentioned ball gags and pissing on someone or something, ask them not me.

Hi, that was me using an extreme example in response to you equating being trans to "forcing your fetish on someone," which you have since admitted you were wrong about.

But it's par for the course that you would misquote and/or misunderstand one of us rather than just going back and reading what was actually said.

[Toadflax]

You shared a tweet which reads "no child is going to become transgender or gay if they read this book..." which means you're in support of CHILDREN reading this book.

Why are people upset over books?

This book in particular has images of people sucking each others dicks with captions saying "I cant wait to have your cock in my mouth"

Why is it so hard for you to understand that parents do not want their kids exposed to books like these, if you or anyone gave this book to my child I would have you arrested.

Do you not yet understand why the general population is becoming angry?

Kids should be reading Dog Man or Goosebumps, not graphic porn.

What the hell is wrong with you.

You know there's LGBTQ+ content that isn't porn, right?

[cdm]

You shared a tweet which reads "no child is going to become transgender or gay if they read this book..." which means you're in support of CHILDREN reading this book.

Why are people upset over books?

This book in particular has images of people sucking each others dicks with captions saying "I cant wait to have your cock in my mouth"

Why is it so hard for you to understand that parents do not want their kids exposed to books like these, if you or anyone gave this book to my child I would have you arrested.

Do you not yet understand why the general population is becoming angry?

Kids should be reading Dog Man or Goosebumps, not graphic porn.

What the hell is wrong with you.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqqPt8kaMAEP1pL.jpg

What the FUCK are you talking about? And what does that random screenshot of an unnamed publication have anything to do with what I posted? I'll save you the trouble: Nothing. It has nothing to do with anything relevant...like most of the things you've posted in this thread. Nothing but random shit skimmed off the top of what's probably 4chan, taken at face value and regurgitated as if it's some sort of evidence or reliable source. It's not. It's bullshit. Every fucking thing you've posted here has been bullshit.

[snaapz]

What the FUCK are you talking about? And what does that random screenshot of an unnamed publication have anything to do with what I posted? I'll save you the trouble: Nothing. It has nothing to do with anything relevant...like most of the things you've posted in this thread. Nothing but random shit skimmed off the top of what's probably 4chan, taken at face value and regurgitated as if it's some sort of evidence or reliable source. It's not. It's bullshit. Every fucking thing you've posted here has been bullshit.

I'm sorry that the book 'Gender Queer: A Memoir' offends you.

1. You said "The paragraphs on the right are 110% correct."
2. The paragraph says that these books are good for a child
3. The book in the paragraph you shared is 'Gender Queer: A Memoir'
4. I shared an image from the book you 110% agree with is good for a child


What's so confusing?

[cdm]

I'm sorry that the book 'Gender Queer: A Memoir' offends you.

1. You said "The paragraphs on the right are 110% correct."
2. The paragraph says that these books are good for a child
3. The book in the paragraph you shared is 'Gender Queer: A Memoir'
4. I shared an image from the book you 110% agree with is good for a child


What's so confusing?

You're posting two pages of the book out of context suggesting it's basically porn. You're also suggesting that this shouldn't be available to students of an appropriate age. I disagree with that. This should absolutely be available to high schoolers if they choose to read it. "...if you gave this to my child i'd have you arrested." Great, because that's not a thing that happens in the real world. Instead books are sought out at book stores and libraries by people interested in the subject matter. If a high school student wants to check this book out they either A. think they might identify with it in some way B. find it relevant from a gender studies standpoint or C. might just want to read something from someone's else's perspective. You seem to be unable to separate this from porn, which says more about you than it does me.

[snaapz]

You're posting two pages of the book out of context suggesting it's basically porn. You're also suggesting that this shouldn't be available to students of an appropriate age. I disagree with that. This should absolutely be available to high schoolers if they choose to read it. "...if you gave this to my child i'd have you arrested." Great, because that's not a thing that happens in the real world. Instead books are sought out at book stores and libraries by people interested in the subject matter. If a high school student wants to check this book out they either A. think they might identify with it in some way B. find it relevant from a gender studies standpoint or C. might just want to read something from someone's else's perspective. You seem to be unable to separate this from porn, which says more about you than it does me.

I never said this book is 'basically porn'; but there is graphic sexual activity on more than just two pages.
I never said this book shouldn't be available for students of an appropriate age; I actually ready the first 26 pages and find it quite interesting and can already see how it could turn out to be a great self help book.
I said 'why is it so hard for people to understand why parents dont want this in schools'. If the graphic images (dry humping, dick sucking) was removed then parents would not be so against this book being in schools.
I did say if someone gave this book to my child I would have them arrested.

Showing pornographic pictures to a child is considered sexual abuse. Child sexual abuse can include non-touching behaviors. Purposely exposing a child to adult sexuality is considered a form of child sexual abuse, whether or not a child is touched.

[cdm]

I never said this book is 'basically porn'; but there is graphic sexual activity on more than just two pages.
I never said this book shouldn't be available for students of an appropriate age; I actually ready the first 26 pages and find it quite interesting and can already see how it could turn out to be a great self help book.
I said 'why is it so hard for people to understand why parents dont want this in schools'. If the graphic images (dry humping, dick sucking) was removed then parents would not be so against this book being in schools.
I did say if someone gave this book to my child I would have them arrested.

Showing pornographic pictures to a child is considered sexual abuse. Child sexual abuse can include non-touching behaviors. Purposely exposing a child to adult sexuality is considered a form of child sexual abuse, whether or not a child is touched.





Define child.

Edit: Also...these two statements in the same post is really incredible:


I never said this book is 'basically porn'

and


Showing pornographic pictures to a child is considered sexual abuse.

So which is it?

[snaapz]

Define child.

In this case it doesn't matter, the book is rated 18+ which excludes all children. However, I think the general population thinks of age 3-9 when someone says child.

https://www.amazon.ca/Gender-Queer-Memoir-Maia-Kobabe/dp/1549304003/ref=sr_1_1?crid=117SNO416JZGD&keywords=gender+queer+a+memoir&qid=1681845119&sprefix=%2Caps%2C129&sr=8-1

I'm not bashing this book, I'm debating the original tweet and how it can be and is misunderstood by the general pop.

[cdm]

In this case it doesn't matter, the book is rated 18+ which excludes all children. However, I think the general population thinks of age 3-9 when someone says child.

https://www.amazon.ca/Gender-Queer-Memoir-Maia-Kobabe/dp/1549304003/ref=sr_1_1?crid=117SNO416JZGD&keywords=gender+queer+a+memoir&qid=1681845119&sprefix=%2Caps%2C129&sr=8-1

I'm not bashing this book, I'm debating the original tweet and how it can be and is misunderstood by the general pop.

I'm kind of at a loss. We're not talking about distributing this willy nilly to 8 year olds. It's about students of a certain age having access to the book through libraries. Should this be available in high school libraries? I believe an unequivocal yes.

[eversonpoe]

In this case it doesn't matter, the book is rated 18+ which excludes all children.

ok then what's the issue here?

it feels like you are CONSTANTLY grasping at straws to paint trans/queer people as villains while repeatedly claiming you "support" the community, and it's getting tired. i don't understand why you keep coming into this thread. if you're not here to be supportive (which you have not been other than ONE GOOD THING you said), then why are you here???

[snaapz]

ok then what's the issue here?

it feels like you are CONSTANTLY grasping at straws to paint trans/queer people as villains while repeatedly claiming you "support" the community, and it's getting tired. i don't understand why you keep coming into this thread. if you're not here to be supportive (which you have not been other than ONE GOOD THING you said), then why are you here???

I didn't share the tweet which says this book is not harmful to children, how is this my fault? I commented on the OP.

Trans rights are being attacked and support from the general population is going in the wrong direction. Fight tooth and nail for access to health care and basic rights, but there are a lot of unnecessary things going on right now which are not favouring the TG community.

We have many LGBTQ members and drag queens openly speaking out against these questionable agendas, its not just me.

You continue to mistake me.

If you've identified as a woman since you were a child then this 3 year wait should not be a problem, I believe in some safeguards to help protect TRANS-CURIOS people from making the wrong decision.

[cdm]

If you've identified as a woman since you were a child then this 3 year wait should not be a problem...

You don't support shit. You spout whatever misinformed bigoted shit you want and then deflect the blame to other people like it's their problem. It's not. It's a you problem. You are the transphobe. Now I'm going to take my own advice on the ignore function.

[eversonpoe]

You continue to mistake me.

no, i really don't think so.

i'm not here to have debates about my right to exist, about the rights that my community is asking for. i'm here to feel supported and cared for in a tiny little corner of the internet that used to feel like a haven away from discrimination. but you keep coming into this thread and spouting ignorant and/or hateful rhetoric. so for the fourth(?) time, i'm going to ask you to leave this thread, and stop acting like you're an ally, because you're not. you have a LOT of work to do and i'm not going to do it for you.

[eversonpoe]

oh, also, looks like i'll be getting off twitter:

1648339266634670081

[BRoswell]

"I'm not transphobic!"
*says transphobic shit*
"You misunderstood me! I'm an ally!"
*says more transphobic shit*

[Toadflax]

"I'm not transphobic!"
*says transphobic shit*
"You misunderstood me! I'm an ally!"
*says more transphobic shit*

It's like the Columbo of being shitty.

[Toadflax]

This video appropriately came out yesterday. It talks about Anita Bryant, a woman who was championed and then finally ostracized for telling gay people they could be gay as long as it wasn't at anyone—and how that's exactly what is happening to trans people today.

It also talks about the motte-and-bailey argument, which is when someone says something fairly innocuous and then layers another argument on top that's far harder to defend. Then, when challenged on the second argument, they instead fall back on the first one as if that's all they were saying.

I don't know why, but it seemed appropriate to share...


youtube.com/watch?v=EmT0i0xG6zg

[sick among the pure]

If you've identified as a woman since you were a child then this 3 year wait should not be a problem, I believe in some safeguards to help protect TRANS-CURIOS people from making the wrong decision.

no. Just flat out fucking no. Just because people who are uninformed and unaffected think we should have to wait multiple years after a diagnosis to be allowed to start treatment doesn’t mean it’s a good stance. What do medical professionals with DECADES of research, study, and a much fuller understanding of the situation than you somehow have wrong? Oh that’s right, they’re trying to actually help us, not eradicate us. That’s what they have wrong.

Listen, I know you know yourself and your medical needs more than I do, but I think you should wait 3 years to get that medicine. I think you should wait 3 years after a diagnosis to get that growth removed. I think you should wait 3 years to get those corrective eye lenses. I think you should wait 3 years to get that filling. I think you should have to wait 3 years to get that tattoo. To get that piercing. To wear that shirt. To go to that concert. To buy a car. I think you should have to wait 3 years to do literally anything with your own life. Because I don’t like the idea of it.
That’s what this argument of “if you really do need this, you can just wait a few more years!”

[theruiner]

If you've identified as a woman since you were a child then this 3 year wait should not be a problem
Fuck off into the sun

[decadent]

When I see how unstable and hysterical some of the replies in this thread are 3 years really seems like a good period. To calm down and get a little bit of perspective.

[theruiner]

Your attempt at trolling is really pathetic

[sweeterthan]

When I see how unstable and hysterical some of the replies in this thread are 3 years really seems like a good period. To calm down and get a little bit of perspective.

hey there decadent, this comment isn’t supportive or even necessary to the discussion. i would rethink posting in this thread if this is all you have to offer.

[decadent]

hey there @decadent (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=651) , this comment isn’t supportive or even necessary to the discussion. i would rethink posting in this thread if this is all you have to offer.

Hey there, I am not sure why you are picking on me here.

You call this discussion:



Fuck off into the sun

And also in the same discussion someone is comparing changing your gender through surgery to getting a tooth filling or eye correction.

I mean seriously?

snaapz and I are arguing that 3 years are not too long for such a life changing decision.

Some people here are saying waiting 3 years is genocide and sharing hysterical tweets. This is what I mean with unstable and hysterical.

Did all of you know what you want in life when you were for example 14 years old? Looking back now, is it the same things that you imagined now? Some people here want to make it possible the teenagers to make such a huge decision immediately, no wating, lets just go for it. We have here some total extremism and there is no discussion from these same people that claim to be for freedom etc. Just attacks and hate towards me, snaapz and whoever dares to have a critical thought.

[cdm]

Please spare a thought for the stupid uneducated ignorant fucks out there wanting to legislate the lives of other people based on feels. So yes, really, fuck off into the sun.

[theruiner]

Hey Decadent? We don't owe bigots discussion or debate. Fuck off.

[Toadflax]

Did all of you know what you want in life when you were for example 14 years old? Looking back now, is it the same things that you imagined now? Some people here want to make it possible the teenagers to make such a huge decision immediately, no wating, lets just go for it. We have here some total extremism and there is no discussion from these same people that claim to be for freedom etc. Just attacks and hate towards me, snaapz and whoever dares to have a critical thought.

Answer me this simple question: why do you think you (or I) should get to have any say whatsoever in how someone else lives their life?

[sick among the pure]

When I see how unstable and hysterical some of the replies in this thread are 3 years really seems like a good period. To calm down and get a little bit of perspective.

Hey bud, fuck off into the sun. ;)

[BRoswell]

I'm not trans, but I have friends who are, and unless you've seen the physical and psychological toll that gender dysphoria can have on a person, you don't get to lecture people on what an appropriate amount of time is for gender affirmation care. Saying someone should wait three years is basically the equivalent of shrugging your shoulders and saying "you'll get over it".

[sweeterthan]

Hey there, I am not sure why you are picking on me here.

You call this discussion:



And also in the same discussion someone is comparing changing your gender through surgery to getting a tooth filling or eye correction.

I mean seriously?

snaapz and I are arguing that 3 years are not too long for such a life changing decision.

Some people here are saying waiting 3 years is genocide and sharing hysterical tweets. This is what I mean with unstable and hysterical.

Did all of you know what you want in life when you were for example 14 years old? Looking back now, is it the same things that you imagined now? Some people here want to make it possible the teenagers to make such a huge decision immediately, no wating, lets just go for it. We have here some total extremism and there is no discussion from these same people that claim to be for freedom etc. Just attacks and hate towards me, snaapz and whoever dares to have a critical thought.
I wasn't talking about any other posts in thread but the one of yours I quoted. no one has attacked you but there are a few people in this thread who are sick of your backhanded insults that you're posting as opinion. your post is an ad hominem attack and yeah I have no problem with them telling you to fuck off. especially since you can't seem to find your lane without being demeaning. Maybe that's not your intent but you directly called people in this thread "hysterical" about the topic at hand.

[Swykk]

decadent and snaapz: You aren’t allies. You’re transphobic.

And now you’re on my ignore list. Your continued nonsensical harassment is unacceptable. Your inability to read the helpful advice provided here speaks volumes. Get lost.

[decadent]

Answer me this simple question: why do you think you (or I) should get to have any say whatsoever in how someone else lives their life?

Where do you see me having a say how others should live their life? I am asking questions and discussing why the mentioned period could make sense in some cases. Where do you see me critisizing how people here or eslewhere should live their lives?

[eversonpoe]

When I see how unstable and hysterical some of the replies in this thread are 3 years really seems like a good period. To calm down and get a little bit of perspective.


Where do you see me having a say how others should live their life? I am asking questions and discussing why the mentioned period could make sense in some cases. Where do you see me critisizing how people here or eslewhere should live their lives?

uh...see your first quoted post?

you have literally contributed NOTHING to the discussion other than insults toward me and the trans community, as well as to those in here standing up for us. you have repeatedly spouted thinly veiled transphobic rhetoric and treated this issue of LITERAL LIFE AND DEATH as a trivial matter on which people WHO AREN'T TRANS OR MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS should have an opinion for some reason.

so i'm going to ask the same of you that i asked of snaapz, and that's to leave this thread. this is a place for SUPPORTING trans people, not questioning us. there is no debate to be had. you either think we deserve rights or you don't, and the fact that you can't understand that there are people calling for our extermination SIMPLY FOR EXISTING is abhorrent. please leave.

[eversonpoe]

This video appropriately came out yesterday. It talks about Anita Bryant, a woman who was championed and then finally ostracized for telling gay people they could be gay as long as it wasn't at anyone—and how that's exactly what is happening to trans people today.

It also talks about the motte-and-bailey argument, which is when someone says something fairly innocuous and then layers another argument on top that's far harder to defend. Then, when challenged on the second argument, they instead fall back on the first one as if that's all they were saying.

I don't know why, but it seemed appropriate to share...


youtube.com/watch?v=EmT0i0xG6zg

there's some good stuff in here but there's also some iffy stuff. there's been a lot of talk about it on "trans twitter"

[Toadflax]

Where do you see me having a say how others should live their life? I am asking questions and discussing why the mentioned period could make sense in some cases. Where do you see me critisizing how people here or eslewhere should live their lives?

Um, in the post I directly quoted where you support a 3 year waiting period for gender reassignment. And in the previous post where you said people who are seeking reassignment should take 3 years "to calm down."

Also in the sports discussion from the other day where instead of suggesting ways in which trans people could compete in competitive sports, you heavily suggested that they shouldn't be allowed to participate full stop. Your words: "So you all honestly believe that it is fair that trans women should participate in womens sport even though they have an advantage as proven by two different scientific researches?" These are exclusionary words, not inclusionary ones. And to be clear, the point here is not to rehash the advantage thing; it's that you came from a place of keeping trans people out of sports (read: having a say in how other people live their lives). You could have made your case about advantages and then suggested ways to address it, i.e. using body type / physicality to determine athletic classes instead of gender, but instead you posted 10+ posts focusing exclusively on why trans people should be kept out of sports.

Again, I don't think it's valuable to go down the sports rabbit hole again. I just want you to see from our perspective why your posts have been hurtful to some of us on here. You've shown very little support of the trans community, instead taking the side of people in a restaurant having a transphobic conversation loud enough for other people to hear, suggesting trans people shouldn't play sports without offering ways in which they might be included, telling people seeking reassignment they need to "calm down" and wait 3 years, etc. Do you see how every one of your posts has either been negative or dismissive towards the trans community?

[Toadflax]

there's some good stuff in here but there's also some iffy stuff. there's been a lot of talk about it on "trans twitter"

Interesting! I was specifically just citing those two examples as being reflective of the behavior of certain people in this thread.

I also hadn't watched the whole video yet, but I have now. I'm curious about what the iffy stuff is if you don't mind sharing.

[eversonpoe]

Interesting! I was specifically just citing those two examples as being reflective of the behavior of certain people in this thread.

I also hadn't watched the whole video yet, but I have now. I'm curious about what the iffy stuff is if you don't mind sharing.

suggesting taking koffler down (who honestly has very little reach/influence) but to "just block" rowling is a weird stance, people are freaking out about her criticizing vaush (i don't even know who that is, really), idunno. overall it's a great video with a LOT of good info and points. i personally don't really have a problem with it other than that first bit about koffler/rowling.

[snaapz]

Fuck off into the sun


If you've identified as a woman since you were a child then this 3 year wait should not be a problem

What I mean is the 3 year requirement has already been met since nearly all transgender people have been this way since they were born. It's very common in the community for people to say "I've been this way since I was 4 years old". If you have never raised this with your family doctor or a therapist then yes, it might be difficult to "ensure" with documentation. But my point is that TGs have far exceeded this 3 year requirement.


(C)Fails to ensure that,for at least the 3 most recent consecutive years,the patienthas exhibited a medically documented, long-lasting, persistentand intense pattern of gender dysphoria


Seriously the volume of abuse I get here is unreal.

You want me dead now and everyone likes that? (f off into the sun) --> https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/dbtech/thanks/images/likes.png sweeterthan (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=50), cdm (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3012), sick among the pure (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=266), Swykk (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=285), eversonpoe (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=588) and 1 others (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/thanks.php?do=list&contentid=577188&varname=likes) liked this post

[BRoswell]

Why is everyone so angry and defensive?

Maybe because you keep telling everyone how much you support trans people, yet you keep bringing up transphobic talking points? Paradoxes tend to frustrate people.

[snaapz]

Maybe because you keep telling everyone how much you support trans people, yet you keep bringing up transphobic talking points? Paradoxes tend to frustrate people.

Trans Rights are the discussion here, I'm responding to posts and highlighting some of the reasons why things are happening. Such as safeguards before certain treatment is given, and why books are banned from some libraries.

My argument is that things are getting much worse and if they continue down this path then support and acceptance will continue to get worse and worse. I never said give up, i said let the dust settle and reexamine.

For example, some CIS women have a problem with sharing a change room for sports and being forced to undress with a person who has a penis. Based on feedback here the approach is to keep fighting and never give an inch. My suggestion is to pause and think of other solutions.

I said some TG wear tampons in their anus, it's true. Why are people angry at me for mentioning it? Be proud of TGs who choose to experiment and do whatever it takes to fulfill their gender dysphoria.

[eversonpoe]

If you've identified as a woman since you were a child then this 3 year wait should not be a problem

What I mean is the 3 year requirement has already been met since nearly all transgender people have been this way since they were born. It's very common in the community for people to say "I've been this way since I was 4 years old". If you have never raised this with your family doctor or a therapist then yes, it might be difficult to "ensure" with documentation. But my point is that TGs have far exceeded this 3 year requirement.


(C)Fails to ensure that,for at least the 3 most recent consecutive years,the patienthas exhibited a medically documented, long-lasting, persistentand intense pattern of gender dysphoria


Seriously the volume of abuse I get here is unreal.

You want me dead now and everyone likes that? (f off into the sun) --> https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/dbtech/thanks/images/likes.png sweeterthan (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=50), cdm (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3012), sick among the pure (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=266), Swykk (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=285), eversonpoe (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=588) and 1 others (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/thanks.php?do=list&contentid=577188&varname=likes) liked this post

the volume of hate and abuse you get here...you mean the valid criticisms people are leveling at you for being a hypocrite and spouting transphobic rhetoric?

how about the ACTUAL death threats i've gotten for over 20 years, the harrassment i suffer nearly every day on public transit, the very real fear i have of being MURDERED if i go anywhere alone right now? do you have ZERO empathy? people talking to you with frustration because you are speaking (falsely) about issues on which you have NO AUTHORITY TO SPEAK is NOT abuse.

the three year requirement to which you're referring depends on a LOT of factors, and it's not something that can just be universally applied to all trans people and have it not be a big deal.

also, do you have ANY idea how many trans adults there are who don't come out in any way until their 30s? 40s? even 50s?

i knew i was trans when i was 8, finally had the language for it when i was 14, but didn't actually DO anything about it until my mid-30s because i was stuck in one abusive relationship after another. if i'd had to wait ANOTHER three years after finally ending my marriage before being able to begin medical transition, i wouldn't be able to start until NEXT SPRING. and if that were the case, i would likely be dead, because the dysphoria that i was experiencing every day, and the lack of support that i was receiving from my ex-wife was so devastating, that i didn't want to live like that.

THAT is what you are arguing for, and THAT is why we are (rightly) calling you transphobic.

also, you have been asked to leave MULTIPLE TIMES. if you feel you are being "abused" in this thread, WHY ARE YOU HERE?

[BRoswell]

Your ignorance and lack of empathy is not everyone's problem to solve. It's YOUR problem, and it's one that you don't seem to have any interest in solving.

And why do you keep bringing up the tampon thing? Who gives a damn what someone does with their own asshole so long as it's not hurting anyone?

[cdm]

You want me dead now and everyone likes that? (f off into the sun) --> https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/dbtech/thanks/images/likes.png sweeterthan (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=50), cdm (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3012), sick among the pure (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=266), Swykk (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=285), eversonpoe (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=588) and 1 others (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/thanks.php?do=list&contentid=577188&varname=likes) liked this post

I have you ignored but since you tagged me...it's called hyperbole. I'd settle for you just leaving and never coming back. Stop acting like you're a victim. You're not a victim, you're an asshole.

[eversonpoe]

Trans Rights are the discussion here, I'm responding to posts and highlighting some of the reasons why things are happening. Such as safeguards before certain treatment is given, and why books are banned from some libraries.

My argument is that things are getting much worse and if they continue down this path then support and acceptance will continue to get worse and worse. I never said give up, i said let the dust settle and reexamine.

For example, some CIS women have a problem with sharing a change room for sports and being forced to undress with a person who has a penis. Based on feedback here the approach is to keep fighting and never give an inch. My suggestion is to pause and think of other solutions.

I said some TG wear tampons in their anus, it's true. Why are people angry at me for mentioning it? Be proud of TGs who choose to experiment and do whatever it takes to fulfill their gender dysphoria.

is "TGs" short for "transgenders"? because if so, that's a fucking slur. i'm not "a transgender" i'm a "transgender woman" which can be shortened to "trans woman" but don't call me "a TG"

second, NO, trans women do NOT "wear tampons in their anus[es]", that is fear-mongering misinformation. if a trans woman who has not had bottom surgery has tampons in her purse, it's so that if someone who menstruates needs one, she can help out.

and yeah, you keep repeating the same thing about "things are getting worse" but not realizing that they're getting worse BECAUSE OF TRANSPHOBES, NOT BECAUSE OF TRANS PEOPLE.

the "dust" that needs to "settle" is blatant fascism, and if we let that take even greater root, we are literally going to be exterminated.

[sweeterthan]

I said some TG wear tampons in their anus, it's true. Why are people angry at me for mentioning it? Be proud of TGs who choose to experiment and do whatever it takes to fulfill their gender dysphoria.

you tried to clarify what you were saying in your previous post in a way that almost seemed genuine but then you post this. i have no idea why you keep bringing this up. no one else is talking about this except you. you just brought it up again. what does anyone sticking anything in their bum have to do with being nice to people who don’t fit into one of two checkboxes? i’m seriously at a loss as to why you brought this up again like it has any validity.

[sick among the pure]

If you've identified as a woman since you were a child then this 3 year wait should not be a problem

What I mean is the 3 year requirement has already been met since nearly all transgender people have been this way since they were born.

Even if that is genuinely what you mean (and it’s doubtful as hell after what all else you’ve been saying, but benefit of the doubt to explain why this is a problem) and you believe “oh, you’ve known since you were a young child, that totally meets the 3y criteria!” the problem is that’s only your interpretation and not what is actually being pushed as law.
When I finally came out as trans and started seeing the multiple medical professionals (both physical and psych) about it, there was a one year rule. Knowing since I was a kid, having distinct memories of moments linked to it, having “dressed” the part most my life without the label attached… that doesn’t mean anything toward the one year. The medical gatekeeping we ALREADY FACE is extreme, but yeah I had to go through another year after I began seeing professionals before I could do much more than “socially transition” (which is really all that minors are able to do, but I was in my mid 20’s). The three year period is AFTER diagnosis. It’s an arbitrary pause on treatment, with cruelty as the only reasoning behind it. They hope we die, one way or the other, or face loss of insurance due to loss of job it’s tied to due to legislation they’re trying to pass to make it legal to refuse hiring or fire someone for being trans. It’s something that some centrists will think is just reasonable enough they can get it passed (alongside those who want active harm against the community already supporting such legislature). It started with just kids can’t get medical treatment. It moved very quickly to adults, after 3 years. What benchmark you think they’ll push next? Because they’re not going to stop. If you genuinely can’t see the attempts at eradicating trans people, especially after this fucking political party stood together behind a speech that actively called for it in those very terms, then that’s on you.

[eversonpoe]

I can't stop laughing at the phrase "fulfill their gender dysphoria" and how it shows a fundamental lack of understanding around anything having to do with the trans community. dysphoria is not something you fulfill, it's something you attempt to eliminate, or at least minimize.

[marodi]

Trans Rights are the discussion here, I'm responding to posts and highlighting some of the reasons why things are happening. Such as safeguards before certain treatment is given, and why books are banned from some libraries.

My argument is that things are getting much worse and if they continue down this path then support and acceptance will continue to get worse and worse. I never said give up, i said let the dust settle and reexamine.

For example, some CIS women have a problem with sharing a change room for sports and being forced to undress with a person who has a penis. Based on feedback here the approach is to keep fighting and never give an inch. My suggestion is to pause and think of other solutions.

I said some TG wear tampons in their anus, it's true. Why are people angry at me for mentioning it? Be proud of TGs who choose to experiment and do whatever it takes to fulfill their gender dysphoria.

That's it, I just can't anymore.

First: I am a CIS woman and I'd rather undress in a changing room full of trans women (with penis or without) than in a room full of other CIS women. Ever seen Carrie? Go watch that shower scene again.

Second: you want to know why people are angry at you for the stuff you're mentioning? It's because it looks like you are doing your best to get the most extreme examples to support you points. Before you started posting in this thread, I've never heard about trans people putting tampons in their anus. As a CIS woman who had to deal with tampons for a couple decades, I can tell you that they are a bitch to wear in a vagina; they don't just slide in there by themselves. They are irritating and highly annoying. I freaking celebrate when I had a hysterectomy at 33. SCREW YOU, TAMPONS!!! But if some people want to wear them in their anus... good for them; it's a free world.

Another example you brought was a trans person saying: "I'm your Daddy, you came from my tummy." Tell me, since I am a CIS woman, was this supposed to offend me? Because it didn't. Why would it? It doesn't take anything away from me. Why should I care?

I guess the real question I have is this: do these fringe examples bother you? I think they do more than you let on.

Hi! My name is marodi. My pronouns are she/her. I am a CIS woman and I am proud of my trans friends. And I will fight with them and for them against everything.

[cdm]

While we all enjoy a cooling-off period to regain composure and just generally mellow out...let's check in with FLA...

CrO26hnJP7L

[BRoswell]

Florida is (literal) hot garbage. There are good people there, but it seems like everyone I know who is from there couldn't wait to leave. My only hope is that they'll go too far and end up shooting themselves in the foot...or sink into the ocean. Either one will do at this point.

[elevenism]

Florida is (literal) hot garbage. There are good people there, but it seems like everyone I know who is from there couldn't wait to leave...

Idk exactly how old you are, but I just turned 43, and Florida was a swing state when I first started looking at politics.
And guess who (still) has the majority when it comes to dems vs republicans in Florida, as far as registered voters...
That'd be the dems.
I mean, Florida, and, Jesus Fucking Wept, I hate to say this...but Florida is KIND of like Texas: it's about 50/50, as far as the gvmt parties you guys support. (Edit: im pretty much done with all of it).
It's all bullshit. I'm kind of a Weather Underground/ Carlos the Jackal fan.
ANYWAY,
The right cheats through gerrymandering. The left promises us shit, and doesn't deliver.

Edit: bottom line is that no one wins in states like this, unless you're in the appropriate place.
This topic hits as close to home as possible, for me, so this isn't just semantics: I'm just saying I wouldn't blame an entire STATE for not being with it on a particular human rights issue.

[bobbie solo]

While I certainly empathize with anyone leaving these cruel, backwards red states b/c of the abhorrent legislation they've been pushing through over the last few years (guns, trans stuff, gay stuff, book banning stuff), the brain drain that will ensue in these states is what the leaders of these states want. They want rational, Dem voting people to leave so they can expand their majorities. Again, I get why people are leaving (my brother is most likely leaving Florida in the next 2 or 3 years), but it is going to just exacerbate the problem unfortunately. People leaving states like Texas, Ohio or Florida are probably the worst ones b/c the Republican majorities in those states are not insurmountable. Leaving a state with a horrendous state gov't like Idaho prolly doesn't matter b/c the margins are too high no matter what & probably will never improve.

[Toadflax]

While I certainly empathize with anyone leaving these cruel, backwards red states b/c of the abhorrent legislation they've been pushing through over the last few years (guns, trans stuff, gay stuff, book banning stuff), the brain drain that will ensue in these states is what the leaders of these states want. They want rational, Dem voting people to leave so they can expand their majorities. Again, I get why people are leaving (my brother is most likely leaving Florida in the next 2 or 3 years), but it is going to just exacerbate the problem unfortunately. People leaving states like Texas, Ohio or Florida are probably the worst ones b/c the Republican majorities in those states are not insurmountable. Leaving a state with a horrendous state gov't like Idaho prolly doesn't matter b/c the margins are too high no matter what & probably will never improve.

This is why the electoral college makes me so angry. It makes no goddamn sense that a person in a swing state can move to an always-blue state where they feel happier/safer/more at home, and now their vote basically just doesn't matter.

[sick among the pure]

This is why the electoral college makes me so angry. It makes no goddamn sense that a person in a swing state can move to an always-blue state where they feel happier/safer/more at home, and now their vote basically just doesn't matter.

That’s actually a reason why I was comfortable moving from NY to CO. It’s another safe state, but it’s close enough to being purple that my vote will still matter (where as in NY my vote only mattered for primaries, if NY ever goes red in numbers the country is a loss imo). Priority number one is always going to be “can I still exist if I live there” because my future votes don’t matter if I’m dead.

[poinoup]

I had a big write up I was going to do, but everything has been said above better than I could scrawl.

One of my closest friends is trans, and there is nothing but support from me, period. When she got married, I was her best man. That is such a funky thing to say.

[elevenism]

I had a big write up I was going to do, but everything has been said above better than I could scrawl.

One of my closest friends is trans, and there is nothing but support from me, period. When she got married, I was her best man. That is such a funky thing to say.

it's fucking insane.

i'm not gonna out anyone, but this shit DEEPLY affects a couple members of my family.

[Plastic Star]

Hi there

I wanted to post this under an anonymous account, because I’ve been a member of this community for well over a decade and I’m not going to risk having my main account get banished for having an opinion.


Moreover, an opinion that doesn’t go with the herd mentality that’s become a cancer on this forum.


@eversonpoe you ought to be ashamed of yourself. The bad name you’re giving our trans community with your selfish, narcissistic, melodramatic prima donna behavior as exhibited in this very thread is downright embarrassing. I’d almost feel embarrassed for you, if I didn’t see through the charade. The world doesn’t revolve around you. Try taking some personal accountability from time to time and grow up.


@Swykk I’m not sure what the hell you’re trying to do in this thread, but it’s definitely not working. Nobody cares if you’re going to ignore them. It’s obvious that you’re hurting inside and you have some issues you need to deal with. Maybe devote your energy towards that instead.


And sweeterthan? Get over yourself. There’s a reason you’re known in certain sectors of this community as “Hitler”. Your favoritism and arrogance is well documented, believe me. Ever wonder why Orestes left ETS? You’re the reason, that’s why.


Seriously, the level of entitlement in this thread is beyond cringe. Trainwreck threads like these are exactly why Trent won’t come around here anymore, and why he called this place out on the Dischord last year for being a bunch of whiny babies. The guy certainly has a point. That’s why a lot of other good people stopped coming around, as well. What person in their right mind wants to put up with this herd mentality bullshit that solves nothing and just works against whatever it is you’re trying to accomplish?


Some of you really need to take a good long, hard look at yourselves before you start casting judgments on others.


Wake the fuck up already.

[theruiner]

It is incredibly cowardly to hide behind an anonymous account. Speaking of being ashamed.

Second, the "herd mentality" is people calling out bigots. Which they should. No one is giving trans people a bad name here. What we ARE doing is defending ourselves. Sorry if you don't like it.

Third, you're a coward.

[elevenism]

Uhhhhh...enjoy your Dischords, @Plastic Star (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=8433) ?

You're talking shit that affects my KID.
I bet you wouldn't say it to our FACES.

This is a thread for people who ARE affected by these things: NOT for the hateful bullshit YOU'RE spewing.

Is that what you do, here? Wait for the Return of Trent?

"WAKE the fuck up?"

GROW the fuck up.

[sweeterthan]

admitting that you have a duplicate account will get you banned pretty quick but feel free to pm me a list of those i’ve run off from the board so i make a tshirt and wear their names to the next nin shows.

that tampon post really struck a nerve i guess. enjoy your new bio. :)

[ltrandazzo]

I mean, I kind of know why Orestes left but go off.

[sick among the pure]

Ah yes, stuff like this is why Trent doesn’t come around here anymore, unlike the Discord where… literally the same discussions are had and everyone also agrees trans rights or fuck off. Or are you a only posting here because you already got banned from the Discord for being anti-trans there too? Because I do know of a few people who got booted from there for less than the two trolls in this topic have said. But yeah, ETS is just full of trans-positive Hitlers. Fucking lol at your little tirade.

[ltrandazzo]

I actually have more to say because this kind of pisses me off now.

I haven't spoken to orestes in close to ten years but if I did, I'm sure she'd be fucking annoyed and pissed that her name is being put in with a transphobic rant towards eversonpoe. You can call her a friend or not, but know that you're definitely not if you think that mentioning her in the same post as that bullshit above is something she'd be OK with.

If you're actually trans, then there's somewhat of an understanding that part of the beauty in that is that no one person is the same as the other. eversonpoe can represent herself however she wants and you can do a general courtesy of keeping your fucking mouth shut instead of spewing out that bullshit. The fact that people like Swykk and sweeterthan make it a point to stick up for her and speak out in support should have ZERO bearing on any of this.

So I'm gonna leave you with this - post under your actual name and stop being a fucking coward. Own your words. I won't ban you for them, but I'll sure as hell roast you for them. At the same time, if I'm actually wrong about your real identity, fuck you, but if you are who I think you are, I say this emphatically - Kick rocks, chew glass and absolutely go fuck yourself. Asshole.

[cdm]

Edit: Asked and answered.

[elevenism]

DISCHORD , @sick among the pure (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=266) . Not discord. :p

Our Lord and Savior, T-Rex will Return, as soon as we stop supporting the LGBT community.

Meanwhile, there's Dischord.

[BRoswell]

I wanted to post this under an anonymous account, because I’ve been a member of this community for well over a decade and I’m not going to risk having my main account get banished for having an opinion.

Whoever you are, you're a coward.

[Swykk]

Go fuck yourself, Geoff. Nobody wants you here. You’re a pathetic hateful cancer not to mention a stalker.

It’s particularly bold of you to talk about Trent knowing he’d fucking despise you because you’re a dim bigot.

[sweeterthan]

i think it’s pretty obvious who it is.

[elevenism]

i think it’s pretty obvious who it is.

I don't wish to talk shit to someone, if I'm not SURE.
@Swykk (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=285) said it was a Giraffe? Like, Geoff Giraffe from Toys R Us?
sweeterthan I propose a ban on Cartoon Animals joining the board.

I mean, fuck it.

If you guys know, please let the rest of us know.
I promise I won't harm anyone.

[sick among the pure]

I always find it funny when people think the guy who dressed up in lipstick and makeup and had a whole era of gender-fuck expression, the guy whose fan club had trans options in your profile way back in the 2000’s when NOBODY else did, the guy who has time and again been up front with support for the queer umbrella as a whole… that he would turn up his nose at trans people… *checks notes* being allowed to live their lives.

[eversonpoe]

Hi there

I wanted to post this under an anonymous account, because I’ve been a member of this community for well over a decade and I’m not going to risk having my main account get banished for having an opinion.


Moreover, an opinion that doesn’t go with the herd mentality that’s become a cancer on this forum.


@eversonpoe you ought to be ashamed of yourself. The bad name you’re giving our trans community with your selfish, narcissistic, melodramatic prima donna behavior as exhibited in this very thread is downright embarrassing. I’d almost feel embarrassed for you, if I didn’t see through the charade. The world doesn’t revolve around you. Try taking some personal accountability from time to time and grow up.


@Swykk I’m not sure what the hell you’re trying to do in this thread, but it’s definitely not working. Nobody cares if you’re going to ignore them. It’s obvious that you’re hurting inside and you have some issues you need to deal with. Maybe devote your energy towards that instead.


And @sweeterthan (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=50)? Get over yourself. There’s a reason you’re known in certain sectors of this community as “Hitler”. Your favoritism and arrogance is well documented, believe me. Ever wonder why Orestes left ETS? You’re the reason, that’s why.


Seriously, the level of entitlement in this thread is beyond cringe. Trainwreck threads like these are exactly why Trent won’t come around here anymore, and why he called this place out on the Dischord last year for being a bunch of whiny babies. The guy certainly has a point. That’s why a lot of other good people stopped coming around, as well. What person in their right mind wants to put up with this herd mentality bullshit that solves nothing and just works against whatever it is you’re trying to accomplish?


Some of you really need to take a good long, hard look at yourselves before you start casting judgments on others.


Wake the fuck up already.

ahahahahahahahahahaahahahHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAahahahahahahahahahaha

ah, yes, personal accountability, a thing i've NEVER done, you're right. the world DEFINITELY revolves around me, didn't you get the memo? being defensive of a community and asking for respect from people and requesting they not spread misinformation is SO selfish. /sarcasim

you're fucking pathetic. everything you've tried to do to fuck up my life has come to nothing. crawl back into your sad hole, honey. i'm happy and healthy and i hold my head high in the face of all this bullshit facing us, in the face of trans women being murdered on a regular basis, because i refuse to be anyone but myself. and you'll NEVER get me to stop.

[eversonpoe]

1649490514054373376

[Wretchedest]

This makes me so fucking sick. It's unbelievable that anyone can get behind this. And we still have these spineless cowards coming in here, a thread where let's be super clear, nobody fucking wants them here, on a forum where they are pretty deeply unwanted, to come out to pull some contraction crap that ends up leading to this shit. Unbelievable. If you're coming in here on a second anonymous account, afraid to post on your normal, already pretty anonymous account, to support *this kind of hateful bullshit.* It's time to evaluate your life choices. It's sick.

[Swykk]

But but but *I* have issues and am deeply hurting inside, @Wretchedest (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=107).

It’s definitely me, and not the cowardly asswipe that stalked a bunch of us all over the internet FOR YEARS pretending to be someone else. And is STILL running scam accounts here. Like, how does Geoffrey keep track of all his different accounts here? And dollars to donuts, he got tossed from DISCHORD too.

But it’s us. Not him.

I’m the one that needs help.

The guy is a dopey clown (wink wink) and while it feels good to stomp him out, we’re giving him what he wants, which is attention. I am guilty of that.

Also, fuck DeSantis.

[leo3375]

Come to Minnesota, where you can get gender-affirming care without worrying about the state betraying you to your state! (https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/protestors-amass-at-capitol-ahead-of-gender-health-care-bill-vote/)

Minnesota also is banning "conversion therapy" for minors and undoing laws that create unnecessary barriers to those seeking abortions.

[eversonpoe]

1649502779126460416

this is disgusting. democracy is a fucking joke. fascism is alive and well.

[elevenism]

I always find it funny when people think the guy who dressed up in lipstick and makeup and had a whole era of gender-fuck expression, the guy whose fan club had trans options in your profile way back in the 2000’s when NOBODY else did, the guy who has time and again been up front with support for the queer umbrella as a whole… that he would turn up his nose at trans people… *checks notes* being allowed to live their lives.

This.
This is fucking priceless.

I'm right there with you. It's fucking hilarious, and absurdly ironic.
All i'd add is that we're talking about a dude who was inspired by, slightly mentored by, and friends with, the cat who wrote Queen Bitch.

[eversonpoe]

This.
This is fucking priceless.

I'm right there with you. It's fucking hilarious, and absurdly ironic.
All i'd add is that we're talking about a dude who was inspired by, slightly mentored by, and friends with, the cat who wrote Queen Bitch.

wHeN dId NiN gEt PoLiTiCaL!?!?

people are so willfully ignorant...amirite?

[sweeterthan]

it’s the entitlement of misogyny. they can pick what they like about reznor and ignore what he actually stands for. i mean, hitler was a huge supporter of the lgbtq community, right? This thread got nice and quiet when the “anonymous” (wink, wink) poster showed up. what a coincidence that two people are no longer invested in their bad opinions disguised as arguments.

anyway, a lot of men on twitter are mad that lizzo invited drags queens on stage with her in tn. they’re saying it’s obscene. if you watch the video, these people are fully clothed, singing and dancing. there’s a twitter meme that says something like “america is the town from footloose now.” agreed. theyre are losing their minds over imaginary surgeries and a concert while ignoring gun violence that is actually killing children every day. i really hope the stokers of this fake morale hysteria reap what they sow.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/3o6MbudZJtl8nNebaE/giphy.gif

and then there’s this fucked up shit:

https://twitter.com/ryanegraney/status/1650210930498600963?s=46&t=gor26k2466vn-NnZCnbztw

we can’t wear pants now? how much energy can we waste on this useless agenda? get out your red hooded capes, ladies.

[GulDukat]

GOP's 'anti-woke' panic is turning off voters: strategist (https://www.rawstory.com/anti-woke-2659906266/)

There is going to be a backlash. After DeSantis's failed bid for the presidency and after he leaves office, maybe some of this hysteria will die down in Florida.

[eversonpoe]

GOP's 'anti-woke' panic is turning off voters: strategist (https://www.rawstory.com/anti-woke-2659906266/)

There is going to be a backlash. After DeSantis's failed bid for the presidency and after he leaves office, maybe some of this hysteria will die down in Florida.

hopefully. because right now being trans in florida is essentially a death sentence.

[GulDukat]

I recently heard Florida being referred to as "1930s Germany with theme parks."

[decadent]

it’s the entitlement of misogyny. they can pick what they like about reznor and ignore what he actually stands for. i mean, hitler was a huge supporter of the lgbtq community, right? This thread got nice and quiet when the “anonymous” (wink, wink) poster showed up. what a coincidence that two people are no longer invested in their bad opinions disguised as arguments.


What coincidence is that? And who are you to tell me whether my opinion is bad or not? I have posted arguments and facts but got to hear that it is either black or white. Well, guess what - it is not.

You are here to back up your ever-whining buddy eversonpoe who since 10+ years on this forum has never stopped complaining and blaming others for whatever is wrong in her life. This continues to this day and in this thread with her current agenda for which she has found a posse here that dont wnat to think about issues or facts, but follow blindly the "100% or transphobe" cult.

Btw since this discussion started I have received private messages from members here, that are also fed up but dont want to speak up exactly because of the mob here. You should let this sink in.

[Swykk]

I know I said I was going to ignore you PlasticStar/decadent/Geoff but I didn’t know Alex Jones was a NIN fan.

”Many people are saying…” Where is everybody? Show us. Or shut up.

”(woke) mob” Sure, buddy. Sure.

Your “opinion” sucks shit. It’s bigoted assholery. It’s a low bar to clear to explain how and why you’re transphobic. Go away.

[sweeterthan]

What coincidence is that? And who are you to tell me whether my opinion is bad or not? I have posted arguments and facts but got to hear that it is either black or white. Well, guess what - it is not.

me? i’m nobody. just a user on a message board with an admin account (which seems to bother some people in your messages, i guess. lol.) and yes your opinions are terrible because you can’t express them without being degrading to people who are affected by the topic. you feel so justified in expressing them that you can’t even see why they’re bad.


You are here to back up your ever-whining buddy eversonpoe who since 10+ years on this forum has never stopped complaining and blaming others for whatever is wrong in her life.

Yes absolutely i will back her up. She needs support because of people like you who try to steer thread in the wrong direction. You’re here to insult Eversonpoe in a thread related to her very own life. You couldnt even respond to me without doing it. Are you trans? Are you gay? no? then shut the fuck up about anyone “whining”. her posts are personal and on topic. Her existence is scrutinized daily by our media and our government (well maybe not yours…) but instead of listening and letting her share her experience in a thread she created, you come in here and instigate with unrelated tangents while calling her unstable and hysterical. basically gaslighting her. Keep it up and i’ll ban you. I’ll truly do not give a fuck how long you’ve been here. it is not a license to be shitty. I was nice when i called you out but you can’t accept that grace and be quiet on a topic that you have no insight on. Instead you continue to double down.


follow blindly the "100% or transphobe" cult.
i’m actually going to add this to the board rules. If you can’t deal with it, feel free to see your way out.


Btw since this discussion started I have received private messages from members here, that are also fed up but dont want to speak up exactly because of the mob here. You should let this sink in.
why would i care if some cowards are messaging you about their shitty opinions instead of sharing them? oh no. their contribution isn’t missed if that’s all they have to offer. what are they so afraid of? a response? certainly if they could express their opinions with out attacking another member of the board, they shouldn’t be afraid at all. Maybe ETS isn’t the place for them. Feel free to add them to that list of names you’re gonna send me.

[decadent]

So you are gonna provoke me with insults about bad opinion etc. and when I reply you start threatening me with a ban?

That is some nice work, no wonder people dont want to write here.

[sweeterthan]

So you are gonna provoke me with insults about bad opinion etc. and when I reply you start threatening me with a ban?

That is some nice work, no wonder people dont want to write here.

provoking you to what? get banned? your response is your own. own it.

[decadent]

provoking you to what? get banned? your response is your own. own it.

"This thread got nice and quiet when the “anonymous” (wink, wink) poster showed up. what a coincidence that two people are no longer invested in their bad opinions disguised as arguments."

Why did you need to mention me in the post above? What do I have to do with the banned user? What coincidence are you talking about?