What if the United States split into two countries?

[GulDukat]

Some interesting articles:

Maybe a Conscious Uncoupling of Red and Blue States is the Way to Go? (https://www.newsweek.com/secession-partition-uncoupling-blue-states-red-states-united-canada-1486944)

The Case for Blue-State Secession (https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/secession-constitution-elections-senate/)

I don't think that this is a remote possibility, but what if? We do seem to be two separate countries.

From the Newsweek article:

Those who rally around the American flag, wear patriotic garb and dress like the founding fathers on the 4th of July tend to be Red Staters-so let's let them keep the USA brand and give them three massive Canadian provinces that also generally share the same values: Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. This nation would be the United States of America (USA).

Then, let's ask our friends to the north to slightly adjust their branding by calling themselves the United States of Canada (USC) and give them a dozen or so of our like-minded states like Washington, Oregon, California, New York, Vermont, Connecticut, Delaware, Rhode Island, Maryland, Maine, Massachusetts and Hawaii.

To be sure, USC will get most of the cool cultural centers like Seattle, L.A., Manhattan and Silicon Valley, but I'm not sure Red-Staters will miss them since they were never very fond of them anyway. And while those are significant revenue bases to lose, they'll be made up for by all of the shale in those Canadian provinces and the drilling that will commence immediately when the newly configured USA legalizes oil drilling in Alaska.

Not sure Canada would go along with that. But there could still be a Red/Blue State split. Purple states could vote which country they would like to join. 2/3 majority by the popular vote or state legislature.

[allegro]

All the Red States would depend on Texas, then they’d all go bankrupt almost immediately.

United States of Canada? Nah. Canada is still a federal parliamentary constitutional monarchy under Elizabeth II.

How about the United States of America for blue states.

The red states can go back to being the Confederate States of America.

Lincoln got it all wrong: He should have let the CSA go. The cotton gin would have killed their economy, anyway. Sanctions was a better idea. The red states have been the albatross of the blue states ever since.

(Edit: No offense to people here in red states.)

[Erneuert]

I would say it’s part of an ARG and Trent knew about it when he released In Two in 2013, duh!

[Space Suicide]

If at first you don’t succeed? Secede!

Poor idea, then what happens when these two binary fringe thinking “countries” have opposing ideas within themselves? Divide them again?

All the article showed me is how poisonous these broken, idiotic political parties have become. The sooner they’re both obsolete the better, though realistically that’s not true and would never happen. The US is stuck with these two thinking ideologies until this country falls at this point and this is all we got. Frankly I hate both. They’re two sides of the same coin except different colors. One gives sweet nothings in lip service and do what they want anyways and the other is tactless in delivery and do what they want as well while their base cheers them on.

[cdm]

One gives sweet nothings in lip service and do what they want anyways and the other is tactless in delivery and do what they want as well while their base cheers them on.

I get where you're going here and don't necessarily disagree but this is being awful deferential to the republican party and their...ideals.

[M1ke]

It's a fun thought experiment to speculate about these things, but I think realistically, this isn't a solution.

Just take Texas as an example, the state went red in 2020, but 46.5% (appx 5.25 million people) voted for Biden. So that state goes with the red country and what happens to those 5.25 million people? Are they now considered traitors in their MAGA-loving country? The red state wouldn't be a democracy, I'd be terrified to live anywhere like that.

And what about states that flip/flop between red/blue each election? Where do you put them?

What about global warming? If we say "OK, red states, you're your own country now", and then they destroy the planet going overboard with coal and gas? Essentially you've made it harder to solve that particular problem.

A lot of the problems we are facing is that we've gone so far into individualism that we've forgot about the collective good. You need both, but overboard individualism is driving the anti-mask, anti-vaxx, anti-truth movement. Splitting a country by political ideology just leads further down that road.

[cdm]

Just take Texas as an example, the state went red in 2020, but 46.5% (appx 5.25 million people) voted for Biden. So that state goes with the red country and what happens to those 5.25 million people? Are they now considered traitors in their MAGA-loving country? The red state wouldn't be a democracy, I'd be terrified to live anywhere like that.

If trends continue, Texas, at some point in the near-ish future, will be a blue state.

[chuckrh]

If trends continue, Texas, at some point in the near-ish future, will be a blue state.

God help us if that happens...

[allegro]

Just take Texas as an example, the state went red in 2020, but 46.5% (appx 5.25 million people) voted for Biden. So that state goes with the red country and what happens to those 5.25 million people? Are they now considered traitors in their MAGA-loving country? The red state wouldn't be a democracy, I'd be terrified to live anywhere like that.
That’s Houston and Dallas and urban areas. Assumedly, there’d be a state-wide vote in each state, yay/nay re secession. By that point, if secession won, then I imagine most of the nays would MOVE.

[botley]

The entire continent, including just about every province in Canada, is politically divided along an urban/rural split. It has nothing to do with North/South anymore; the states don't vote, people do. People voting in big cities are working to advance progressive policy, and people living outside cities who continue to reap enormous benefit from the white supremacist foundation of "free land" (stolen from Indigenous people) are dragging us in the opposite direction. There are exceptions, particularly the cowboy cosplayers in some of the smaller cities, of course. But if I had to generalize politics based on geography, it certainly explains more than the red/blue state dichotomy does.

[GulDukat]

A new country made up of former states on the east and west coasts would have flying cars in five years.

The new country made up of former states from the mid-west would look like Mad Max.

[elevenism]

That’s Houston and Dallas and urban areas. Assumedly, there’d be a state-wide vote in each state, yay/nay re secession. By that point, if secession won, then I imagine most of the nays would MOVE.
I'd argue this: SO many poor right wing people are "right wing" because they're racist or "jesus" or "guns" or fear "commies." I think it would wake a lot of people up.
They don't understand that left wing politics provide their food cards and their section 8 and their Medicaid and shit. I've seen these people in documentaries and argued with them in real life, and MOST of them just DON'T GET IT. My mom has a friend like that: she's disabled and lives 100% on welfare, and a couple of side hustles of dubious legality, but she LOVES Trump. This isn't just in Texas, of course. There's a great doc on the subject called What's the Matter with Kansas.

And as far as MOVING, a shitload of the leftists down here can't AFFORD to move. But a year of right wing austerity and true conservatism would make a LOT of fucking people reassess their political affiliation. Also, in Texas, specifically, I'm 99% sure that white folks are a minority now. If everyone could and would VOTE, (and we fixed the fucking gerrymandering,) Texas would be purple TODAY. LAST year.

I WILL say that the food card debate inspired my travelling USAF Chaplain friend to literally register as an independent; this is the dude who baptized me. He DID get it.

Edit: removed the "there are leftists in Texas bit;" you've guys seen me do that one enough times.

[Jinsai]

Ah, it would be amazing for about four months or so, until all the red states realized that Texas can’t support them and they all go broke and start crying about how the Libtards are at fault.

EDIT: or, basically what allegro said

[elevenism]

Also, what @botley (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=469) said. MOST states are a pastiche of red and blue, and i'd take that a bit FURTHER by saying that you have the odd leftist out in the country, and plenty of right wing people in big cities.

THEN, throw in the people who DON'T VOTE, and just take shit as it comes.
And, so, what of Texas in this scenario, where "non hispanic whites" have been the minority for a LONG time? Are we to assume that a nonwhite majority would stand for a big fuckton of Confederate politics?

What about Arizona, Florida, Colorado, Ohio, Virginia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania, Georgia, and the rest of the swing/battleground states of this millennium? What of states that elect a president of one party and a governor of another? You can say people would leave, but a lot of us don't have MONEY to leave. If my family had the money to leave, we'd be citizens of Sweden by now.
My guess is that, in a LOT of these places, no matter which new country they belonged to, things would be MORE divided than ever, locally, and the streets would descend into mass chaos. There's no single cause dividing people geographically like there was in 1860.

All in all @GulDukat (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3921) , it IS a lyrical notion. I once posted on facebook an idea of sending the hardcore Trump Faithful to Puerto Rico and the various atolls and such, where they could live in the Kingdom of Trump, eat Trump steaks purchased from the Trump Patriot grocery, live in Trump houses and stay in Trump hotels.
And we could make room for the Puerto Ricans.
I THINK it was in the same vein as that first article you posted.
I wasn't all the way serious.

[allegro]

Michigan

Michigan should not be considered a swing battleground state. The urban areas are solid blue, and the rural areas aren’t populated enough to care about. Trump won Michigan due to voter suppression in Detroit.

None of this is a serious topic (except for a group of weirdos in the south who fail Econ 101).

Bottom line: Whichever “country” gets California wins.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California

I moved to another state with no job and about $150. My family moved here FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY with zero money. People move with no money, really, they do.

From all the articles I’ve read about Texas, the biggest problem in Texas is not gerrymandering; it’s voter suppression. Hands down absolutely 100% it’s voter suppression. Texas has honed it to an art form.

Greatly reducing the number of polling places in urban areas that are likely to have minority Dem voters and INCREASING polling places where there are Republican voters …
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/23/texas-voting-polling-restrictions/

Resulting in Dem voters being required to travel great distances then wait in line for many hours leads to reduced voting.

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/30/texas-voting-restrictions-senate/

It’s a chicken/egg scenario, but the Republican-district gerrymandering wouldn’t be happening if there wasn’t so much horrific voter suppression.

Also, you have to take into consideration the HUGE numbers of conservatives moving to Texas from other states; I’ve seen numbers showing that the number of 100% born-raised Texans is now greatly outnumbered by “everyone else.” We’re talking people from the northeast, California, Midwest, all looking to lower their income and property taxes and/or get out of cold weather and move closer to like-minded conservative people. Current generations are mobile and aren’t likely to stay in one place. They build careers that are based on mobility.

I truly believe that a Great Migration - or population shift - is going to occur in this country due to CLIMATE CHANGE.

Lake Mead is in BIG trouble right now.

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/148758/lake-mead-drops-to-a-record-low

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nc/triangle-sandhills/weather/2021/07/10/the-american-west-is-drying-up-before-our-very-eyes

Meanwhile, the water levels in the Great Lakes have been at record HIGHS, with beaches and breakwaters that totally disappeared. But THIS YEAR, we’ve seen a big drop; Superior (the biggest Great Lake) dropped 11”.

https://www.woodtv.com/weather/bills-blog/great-lakes-water-levels-continue-to-drop-2/

People are going to be forced to move due to the heat and water supplies, and flooding occurrences. Migration will be north, and to higher elevations.

This will be a HUGE issue for Houston. Already is, really. The power grid situation in urban Texas is shameful. North and South Carolina and Tennessee have been experiencing record storms and flooding. Florida is just a ship ready to sink.

A BIG reason for the “border crisis” is climate change.

[Jinsai]

YES! And if you ever wonder why the Republicans are horrified by the outcome of mail-in ballots, it's because THEY fucking KNOW that the majority is democratic leaning, and not because of Covid really, or anything else... it's because they've rigged it to where, if you wanna vote in an area that is predominantly blue, you have to either wait in line for hours, or just send the vote in the mail like a reasonable person would in that sort of situation

[allegro]

When Texas will accept your gun card as voter ID but NOT your college student ID?

Yeah, that’s intentional.

[elevenism]

Jesus Christ @allegro (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) . Thanks for that vision. When does the Climate Apocalypse begin? : o

Also, you think YOU'RE pissed off about voter suppression in Texas? Try being 7th generation, and being passionate about where you're from, and how it was once part of France and Mexico and Spain, and then watching that shit just TAKEN OVER, irreversibly for the time being, by a local party championing a little bitch from Canada, and bowing to Donald Trump.

And also, try seeing fucking Californians roll up into YOUR town with cowboy hats- the same hats your immediate ancestors wore to tame this harsh land- wearing them like it's some sort of political statement that goes along with their little rebel flags or whatever.

It's horrible.

And yes, @Jinsai (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=272) . They wanna make it harder for anyone who isn't THEM to vote.

THIS is the shit I'm talking about, and it isn't just happening here. And THIS is why I predict a red wave in 2022 and 2024.

They're changing the rules.

And you can BET if it works here, other states will do the exact same shit.

[Wretchedest]

I actually think dissolving the union is the only way to prevent a civil war at this point. California currently has a surplus, ranks extremely low in per Capita covid cases, and is the 5th largest economy in the world. Why can people from Kentucky wield our power? At this point the u ion only gives money and power to people from states that do nothing like Mitch McConnell. I don't want to be in the same country as them, nor they me. Let's call it

Also in my "never going to happen" fantasies: ending the senate. Packing the courts. Term limits on justices. Etc. Etc.

[Jinsai]

If California really walks, the rural dickheads will rise up, and be joined by rural dickheads across the nation, and then they'll do something like burn down the Hollywood sign.

Whatever. I'm not scared of Y'all Queda.

[Wretchedest]

The rural dickheads in California? I don't know. I love in a part of can with a lot of agriculture, and sure some of them are conservative but they're not gonna "rise up."

Elsewhere? Those guys run the other states already.

[Jinsai]

The rural dickheads in California? I don't know. I love in a part of can with a lot of agriculture, and sure some of them are conservative but they're not gonna "rise up."

Elsewhere? Those guys run the other states already.

California is a huge state. For reference, look at a map highlighting the areas that voted to recall Gavin Newsom, and then for laughs look at how similar it looks to a map of unvaccinated COVID outbreaks

[allegro]

I’d move to California TOMORROW if you didn’t tax pensions. Illinois doesn’t, so that’s why we stay here. It’s one of the few blue states that doesn’t tax pensions. Otherwise, I’d be packing. I’d likely RENT and not buy.

One of my best friends is trying to talk me into moving to S Carolina where she now lives, but that ain’t happening, nope. G would rather get neutered.

When the civil war climate change apocalypse happens, I’m gonna be as far north as possible. Like, maybe Duluth.

Signed,
Forever Yankee (snort)

[elevenism]

What's crazy is that I saw a poll indicating that this is what most Americans WANT.

And I watched a news piece suggesting that it would play out with any sort of violence, or even necessarily end with a divided country.

It would.be more like States defying the federal government, and the government placing sanctions on them. And some of these states could form coalitions.

I think that's probably right. And Texas' Abortion bullshit might have been the first shot.

We'll see what happens after Dec 1.

Of course, the gvmt could easily turn off a state's internet, for instance, but these types of showdowns COULD be imminent, especially if a Donald Trump gets back in, with a huge house majority and a filibuster proof senate majority.

I don't think we'll see two countries, but the fact that there's enough malaise and distrust and division that literally MORE PEOPLE WANT IT than don't, is disturbing as fuck.

[burnmotherfucker!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d2-7XItFYE

[elevenism]

This is in the news again, bright and early:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AS11SbvLmM

The guest speaker does research for the CIA to predict civil wars in other countries and says that by our OWN metrics, as in, if the CIA, were looking at another country that fit the current data set HERE, they'd have that country labeled "at risk," and very nearly "high risk," for civil war. We'd be on a CIA civil war "watch list."

[richardp]

This is in the news again, bright and early:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AS11SbvLmM

The guest speaker does research for the CIA to predict civil wars in other countries and says that by our OWN metrics, as in, if the CIA, were looking at another country that fit the current data set HERE, they'd have that country labeled "at risk," and very nearly "high risk," for civil war. We'd be on a CIA civil war "watch list."

No doubt. 2024s gonna be the year. It's gonna happen. I can feel it.

[elevenism]

According to the CIA's "polity data," which is apparently a very important metric for measuring a country's level of democracy, and is used by our own government, the USA is no longer a democracy, nor a flawed democracy.

As of Jan 2021, it's classified as an "anocracy," which is a "is a form of government loosely defined as part democracy and part dictatorship, or as a 'regime that mixes democratic with autocratic features'."

This puts us in the company of Russia, Ukraine, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Niger, Haiti...

So much for the whole "beacon of democracy and freedom to light the world" bullshit, i guess.

[allegro]

Not surprising at all. Sadly.

[DVYDRNS]

Can we have a country for people who think both sides are totally ridiculous?

[Jinsai]

Can we have a country for people who think both sides are totally ridiculous?

I think everyone agrees they're both ridiculous.... i just think I find solidarity with thinking the republicans are MUCH more ridiculous, and I only have two choices.