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View Full Version : A thread about Courtney Love on ETS, oh boy



Sarah K
06-13-2021, 12:13 PM
CQEVkJSFLfk

WorzelG
06-13-2021, 01:34 PM
CQEVkJSFLfk
Do you know what in a weird way I'm glad this is getting dragged out into the open, I've been feeling really shitty lately thinking at some point NIN could be cancelled and some bad shit could have gone down and this looks like it will be some sort of resolution one way or the other!

allegro
06-13-2021, 04:33 PM
CQEVkJSFLfk
What was this? It was removed?

WorzelG
06-13-2021, 04:41 PM
What was this? It was removed?
It’s discussed in this Reddit thread which has links
https://www.reddit.com/r/nin/comments/nz0jkl/what_the_fuck_is_up_with_courtney_loves_story/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

until somebody comes forward who doesn’t have personal 90s beef against Trent comes forward I’m not buying it

ickyvicky
06-13-2021, 06:02 PM
what the fuck?? what does she mean by "want to discredit me?"

WorzelG
06-13-2021, 06:47 PM
what the fuck?? what does she mean by "want to discredit me?"
Doesn’t it all stem from that Details interview when he said he didn’t fuck her - which was pure bullshit IMO but from the video I posted in random NIN comments, her setting a PI to spy on him is certainly reason to be like that.
this is the Details interview
https://www.theninhotline.com/archives/articles/manager/www.theninhotline.com/archives/articles/manager/display_article.php?id=148

M1ke
06-13-2021, 06:48 PM
She's making some pretty heavy accusations there, and she's someone who has shown themselves to not be credible in the past.

I'm in the camp of believing any woman who comes forward and says that they were assaulted, because I know how hard it is for someone to come forward and say that they were assaulted.

In this case though, Courtney Love is not saying that she was assaulted herself. She's saying others were assulted, and that she and others witnessed it.

Courtney Love has (in the past) been shown to be an unreliable witness. I want to hear from other witnesses, or victims, before I'm believing what's said here.

BRoswell
06-13-2021, 07:22 PM
I believe women, but I definitely don't believe her, and that's not because I'm some fanboy who puts Trent up on a pedestal either. Trent was an addict, and that possibility has always existed, as uncomfortable as it is to think about as a fan. That said, she's shown herself to be petty and emotionally manipulative many times, and if it's true that she's sticking by Manson, that gives her even less credibility. Let's be honest: those posts were more about her than any alleged abuse, hence the Starfuckers references. I don't know if she was seeing it for the first time or what, but those posts felt very impulsive. Whatever her reason for posting it, it was definitely not to shed light on past transgressions.

RowanSomething
06-13-2021, 07:47 PM
She's making some pretty heavy accusations there, and she's someone who has shown themselves to not be credible in the past.

I'm in the camp of believing any woman who comes forward and says that they were assaulted, because I know how hard it is for someone to come forward and say that they were assaulted.

In this case though, Courtney Love is not saying that she was assaulted herself. She's saying others were assulted, and that she and others witnessed it.

Courtney Love has (in the past) been shown to be an unreliable witness. I want to hear from other witnesses, or victims, before I'm believing what's said here.

Pretty much echoing this. If it was literally anyone else, I'd be believing it in a heartbeat, and if anyone does come forward, I would believe it. But it's Courtney Love who's saying this, someone who abused Kurt Cobain so badly that it almost certainly contributed to his suicide, defended Brian Warner after people came forward about him, is known to blame rape victims for their trauma because they have 'victim energy,' admitted that she told a rape victim 'what did you think they would do?' after the victim told her she'd been raped, sexually assaulted a trans woman before giving her money to make it look like she'd paid her for it, and many more instances of really yikesy shit.

Like, if her allegations are true, it's blatant hypocrisy from Courtney considering everything she's done. Again, I must stress, if people do come forward about it though, I'm believing them.

Deacon Blackfire
06-13-2021, 07:59 PM
Look I have no delusions that Trent was some kind of chivalrous prince back in the day, but I have a hard time taking this seriously for the same reason I thought it was insane that Sady Doyle's response to Marilyn Manson's abuse victims was to dig up an offensive passage from the book he wrote with Neil "The Game" Strauss after a bitter falling out with Trent and act like it meant Trent should be canceled too. Not only did it totally gloss over the actual victims (MANSON'S victims) but irresponsibly framed a significantly unreliable account (one that Trent has consistently disputed since its publishing) as verifiable reality.

As far back as the pre-With Teeth / With Teeth era, I can recall Trent distancing himself from both Marilyn Manson's book and anything that Courtney Love says. I'm not going to buy her as a reliable source now, especially when she has such nice things to say about the fucking piece of garbage who actually has over a dozen women accusing him of unspeakable abuse. Any allegations like this are serious but there is very legitimate reason to doubt this is being raised in good faith.

implanted_microchip
06-13-2021, 08:39 PM
I hate the suggestion I see here and often that an addict is somehow capable of pedophilia like Courtney is claiming. She’s a terrible source, someone who if anything reduces credibility of claims, and just because someone was a drug addict doesn’t mean they were somehow happily raping children. I’ve had many friends experience addiction and I myself in the past year had to recover from some serious addiction and sure, I did and said many things I regret over the years, but that level of exploitation and violence were never in the cards. I don’t believe any of this because the only person claiming it is a complete lunatic who defends other rapists, bases their views around personal standing and is a documented liar. This is a perfect example of why it’s stupid to treat every claim as equally honest no matter the speaker.

tony.parente
06-13-2021, 10:21 PM
If this is true I’m gutted and prepared to erase nin and Trent from my life the way I did Manson.

allegro
06-14-2021, 12:50 AM
Courtney isn’t talking about sexual assault or “pedophilia.”

She’s talked about this before, a long time ago.

What she described was more, I don’t know how to categorize it; typical abhorrent “rock n roll” behavior that the world grew to accept as “normal,” which was abusive and degrading toward females.

Edit; it seemed to mostly involve the roadies, from what I recall.

ickyvicky
06-14-2021, 10:08 AM
This is from a NIN Fan Facebook group I'm in:

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/201009218_10160919548493776_6201673870227049367_n. jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=_IHMYLAnEnsAX95NG3F&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=b3f4fb39c57a6cb96be990417e34dfb0&oe=60CC768B

Erneuert
06-14-2021, 10:31 AM
This is from a NIN Fan Facebook group I'm in:

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/201009218_10160919548493776_6201673870227049367_n. jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=_IHMYLAnEnsAX95NG3F&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=b3f4fb39c57a6cb96be990417e34dfb0&oe=60CC768B


How many voices are going on inside that woman’s head at once?

thefragile_jake
06-14-2021, 10:35 AM
I'm pretty sure Courtney Love defended Marilyn Manson earlier this year.

I think that tells you all you need to know.

Erneuert
06-14-2021, 10:38 AM
I'm pretty sure Courtney Love defended Marilyn Manson earlier this year.

I think that tells you all you need to know.

She worked with him in 2018 and has said nothing about all the allegations against him. lol at it all.

Swykk
06-14-2021, 10:39 AM
I do not believe anything Courtney Love says about anything, including this.

Erneuert
06-14-2021, 10:43 AM
Google “Trent Reznor Courtney love news” - it’s certainly making the rounds.

icklekitty
06-14-2021, 10:56 AM
Remember that Courtney Love was the Cassandra of the Weinstein allegations - i.e. she was talking about it in 2005 and nobody believed her. It's more than easy to see how she was fabricated to be a fuck-up as a result.

I'm ready to throw NIN in the toilet if needed.

Erneuert
06-14-2021, 11:04 AM
Why is she remaining silent re: Manson though? Seems very picky-and-choosy to me.

thefragile_jake
06-14-2021, 11:06 AM
Why is she remaining silent re: Manson though? Seems very picky-and-choosy to me.

She even accused Grohl of seducing her daughter back in 2012 (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/courtney-love-accuses-dave-grohl-of-hitting-on-frances-bean-cobain-61949/), both of them denied it. There just seems to be a lot of hate in her heart towards Dave and Trent.

shade
06-14-2021, 11:08 AM
Being called a creep by Courtney Love.
Sweet irony.

Entire structure of that post (if that's the original from her account) has "multitude of substances involved" written all over it. Hence the deletion once her management got her under control, I assume.

Swykk
06-14-2021, 11:15 AM
We all saw Closure. Debauchery happened.

Do I think well known liar and relisher Courtney is inflating the details of this up (now it’s underage girls, for example) like fucking Brian did in his book? Absolutely. She does so a lot. Basically whenever she speaks.

If more credible folks come forward? I’ll rethink my position, obviously.

Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)
06-14-2021, 12:04 PM
Is TR even going to bother to address this whack job? Shes also the one who claimed Grohl was trying to fuck her daughter and Frances came out afterward and said it was total bullshit

My guess as to what happened

1. She witnessed crew members doing sketchy shit w girls at shows. Thats not on TR. A lot of crew members are wannabe rock stars and do stupid shit. Mike Patton used to tell stories about how skeezy the FNM crew was in the 90s and make fun of them constantly for chasing after groupies

2. Back when she was stalking Trent after he dumped her, she knew he was going around with random girls (LEGAL) he met immediately after their "breakup" and poor Courtney got upset

3. This woman had Kurt murdered and got her daughter addicted to heroin. OJ is a better source of information than her

Toadflax
06-14-2021, 12:10 PM
I think there are a few things to consider here going forward.

1. If this story gains credibility -- i.e. someone comes forward saying they were abused, specifically by Trent -- then their voice should be heard, and Trent should respond. That doesn't mean Courtney Love's voice shouldn't also be heard, but as you guys are pointing out, her track record makes it impossible to differentiate truths from half-truths from all out lies.

2. If Trent was in fact involved or complicit in any kind of abuse, he should have the balls to admit it and apologize rather than issuing some mediaspeak statement that doesn't admit to or apologize for anything.

3. If all of the above comes to pass, the question not enough people ask is, "do we think this person is the same person they were back then?" Do we think the soft-spoken, 56 year-old family man we know today is the same person as the twenty-something depressed alcohol and drug abusing wreck of the mid-90's? to be clear, I'm not saying someone getting their act together excuses anyone of bad behavior in the past, but if they admit to that bad behavior and accept any repercussions, and we feel that person would be incapable of similar behavior now, then that person should be allowed to be forgiven, and we should be willing to forgive them.

P.S. To be extra extra clear, I'm not saying men who are accused of abuse should be given a pass or anything remotely close to it. I just think there's a world of difference between people who exemplified horrifying behavior for decades and people who were fuck-ups in their 20's and have shown themselves to be nothing but clean and respectable for the majority of their adult lives. Again, the latter should absolutely still be held accountable for past behavior, but it doesn't mean that in 100% of cases they automatically should be wiped off the face of the cultural map.

sweeterthan
06-14-2021, 12:33 PM
ets, you need to focus.
what do we know about trent reznor?
what do we know about courtney love?

the truth should be obvious here.

Frozen Beach
06-14-2021, 12:55 PM
She isn't even clear about what type of abuse. Psychological? Sexual? Manipulative? Her accusation is so vague, it could be almost anything.

ickyvicky
06-14-2021, 01:01 PM
I wonder who she's "saving her 1 up" for lmao :p

richardp
06-14-2021, 01:42 PM
I agree with @sweeterthan (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=50), some of yall need to focus and ACTUALLY think about this for a second. "Info" from someone about as reputable as Rudy Guiliani and some of y'all seem genuinely excited about the prospects of abandoning your favorite band already.

halo eighteen
06-14-2021, 01:49 PM
Omfg. She didn't have Kurt murdered. Gtfo with this conspiracy theorist sexist bullshit crap.

Toadflax
06-14-2021, 02:27 PM
ets, you need to focus.
what do we know about trent reznor?
what do we know about courtney love?

the truth should be obvious here.


I agree with @sweeterthan (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=50), some of yall need to focus and ACTUALLY think about this for a second. "Info" from someone about as reputable as Rudy Guiliani and some of y'all seem genuinely excited about the prospects of abandoning your favorite band already.

Totally agree that this is probably some BS, but we also don't want to come across as dismissive hateful dudes who are instantly assuming a woman is full of shit about a man we're fans of. Because of who the two parties are in this case, that may be totally justified, but the important thing is that we listen and process without pretending we have any real idea about what went on during a crazy, debaucherous time.

But as pointed out, it's such a vague allegation that it's not even clear what she's saying, so it's kind of a meaningless statement anyway without details or anyone else to back it up.

Swykk
06-14-2021, 02:38 PM
This is drift but I don’t think Courtney was involved in any plot to kill Kurt. I do think a big reason Kurt committed suicide was because of how awful Courtney was (and still is).

JessicaSarahS
06-14-2021, 02:54 PM
1. She witnessed crew members doing sketchy shit w girls at shows. Thats not on TR. A lot of crew members are wannabe rock stars and do stupid shit. Mike Patton used to tell stories about how skeezy the FNM crew was in the 90s and make fun of them constantly for chasing after groupies

Sketchy shit between consenting adults is fine, but not with children. I wonder if she is confused between young looking girls and actual 12 year olds. The latter claim would need a lot more evidence. I would like to hear out her proof of confirmed 12 year olds. ��

Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)
06-14-2021, 03:00 PM
Sketchy shit between consenting adults is fine, but not with children. I wonder if she is confused between young looking girls and actual 12 year olds. The latter claim would need a lot more evidence. I would like to hear out her proof of confirmed 12 year olds. ��


What I meant was that its not Trent's fault if his crew were doing fucked up things. You have a ton of people on these crews. I can't hold it against the band members if their crew members are depraved assholes unless the band is also participating with the crew in sordid activities like Guns N Roses used to do

WorzelG
06-14-2021, 03:03 PM
I have to say I think you’d have to be a bit bonkers if you WERE a victim to rely on CL backing you up. Personally I think if TR said
“I give in, we did fuck all those years ago and you were the best fuck I ever had” she’d totally forgive him and throw them under the bus! However that’s no reason they couldn’t go to the press separately

Arcspiral
06-14-2021, 03:05 PM
I can't hold it against the band members if their crew members are depraved assholes unless the band is also participating with the crew

Can't you though? It's not like a band is working for the crew. It's the other way around, so if a band is employing an awful and abusive crew, then that's on the band as far as I'm concerned.

ryanmcfly
06-14-2021, 03:08 PM
Well I guess I might hold off on getting that NIN tattoo I’ve been thinking about getting soon. I agree the likelihood is that it’s not legit as Courtney Love is, well, awful. But I don’t want to dismiss anything if the accusations (as vague as they may be) are legit. I still feel a little conflicted right now though.

Zimbo
06-14-2021, 03:10 PM
It always feels weird to speculate and nit-pick someone who is submitting an allegation of abuse. Is it weird that the two people she calls out she also heavily dislikes; all the while staying silent on Manson? Sure, absolutely. Her relationships have always been up-and-down but she went through some major trauma and significant drug abuse. There is no good way to approach this because all directions contain bleakness. There are a myriad examples in which to point to, so as to discredit the allegations. But in doing so, it only furthers the trauma people go through in just contemplating coming forward. Let alone, actually bringing yourself to speak up. As a NIN and Trent fan, I'm just going to stay neutral. To do anything else would be disingenuous.

Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)
06-14-2021, 03:17 PM
Can't you though? It's not like a band is working for the crew. It's the other way around, so if a band is employing an awful and abusive crew, then that's on the band as far as I'm concerned.


I mean they hire the crew to do a job. Some band members do not even associate with their crew so they probably do not even know what they are up to. If some skeezbag crew member is using his status to pick up girls backstage (legal or underage), I doubt the band members would even know about it unless word got back to them

I know Patton told a story about how one time he walked in on Guns N Roses band members and their crew paying girls to do lesbian acts to eachother backstage while they all cheered the girls on (Axl included) and Patton screamed at them for being degenerate fucks and walked out. I just can't picture mr anti social TR hanging out and partying with crew members in 1994. He probably locked himself backstage in his dressing room immediately after the shows and then got the hell out of the venue

tony.parente
06-14-2021, 03:19 PM
Well I guess I might hold off on getting that NIN tattoo I’ve been thinking about getting soon. I agree the likelihood is that it’s not legit as Courtney Love is, well, awful. But I don’t want to dismiss anything if the accusations (as vague as they may be) are legit. I still feel a little conflicted right now though.
I've got 2, so i'm a little anxious. If it was anyone else but Courtney I would be SUPER out of my mind, i'm running out of musical heros.

Shadaloo
06-14-2021, 03:23 PM
I don't doubt there was debauchery, but I really need the other members of Hole to come forward before I start taking any of this seriously.

People have said above what needed to be said. I'm always ready to believe anyone who comes forward with sexual assault claims. But her history speaks for itself, and I wouldn't trust her to tell me the time of day accurately. She's simply no more credible than Brian fucking Warner in my eyes.

Arcspiral
06-14-2021, 04:03 PM
I mean they hire the crew to do a job. Some band members do not even associate with their crew so they probably do not even know what they are up to. If some skeezbag crew member is using his status to pick up girls backstage (legal or underage), I doubt the band members would even know about it unless word got back to them

Yeah, I suppose you're right. I like to think that the band has a little more oversight in that regard, but considering how much is happening on a tour I could see it slipping through the cracks for sure.

Jinsai
06-14-2021, 04:12 PM
If you're going to insinuate this sort of shit, you really need to be a bit more specific and clear with your allegations. This is almost like she wrote a poem or something. I have no idea what she's specifically alleging.

poinoup
06-14-2021, 04:46 PM
We will see how this plays out, but if you're going to allege these sorts of things, can you do it professionally? 56-years-old and posting like that? But if this is just Trent living rent-free in her head for decades... yeesh. I can admit to doing a lot of dumb shit in my younger days, but it was never to a crazy degree. The me of, say, 2004 is far different from today. The line begins to blur (sorry) with Manson years ago, while you can see 90's NIN TR and family man TR as two different people.

It does feel of a red flag to see her also go after Grohl immediately. Just outta nowhere. It feels like the quarterback who pines for the days of high school from thirty years ago.

Can I be a dick and say that she's seen bigger systematic abuse of kids when she was doing heroin while pregnant?

sweeterthan
06-14-2021, 05:11 PM
if her claims were even remotely legit why would she delete?

slave2thewage
06-14-2021, 05:12 PM
https://imgur.com/gallery/IFMfq9i

She’s recanted.

tony.parente
06-14-2021, 05:16 PM
https://imgur.com/gallery/IFMfq9i

She’s recanted.
Lol what a big dummy that person is. Good riddance.

poinoup
06-14-2021, 05:16 PM
"I'm sorry for doing this, even though I totally meant it. I also have now given people against #metoo and cancel culture fuel, and possibly made it harder for some victims to come forward. [15 emojis] Also, fuck Dave Grohl..."

Magnetic
06-14-2021, 05:24 PM
Honestly what the hell set her off in the first place? It seems kinda random?

poinoup
06-14-2021, 05:25 PM
Drugs, alcohol and jealousy?

Swykk
06-14-2021, 05:29 PM
She’s a terrible person inside and out.

Jinsai
06-14-2021, 05:41 PM
Sometimes when you’re shitfaced you shouldn’t play around with your phone

Tom
06-14-2021, 05:43 PM
Well, that was all rather pointless and unpleasant.

sweeterthan
06-14-2021, 05:47 PM
Honestly what the hell set her off in the first place? It seems kinda random?

i feel like she’s reading the comments. specifically mine. last week i commented on a consequence of sound post about her. it was a reply to someone saying she doesn’t even write her own songs. i agreed with them and relayed a story about her appearing on a local radio show. her and a dj spent the program writing a song together. she said multiple times that she would credit him on her record. of course when it came out, his credit was no where to be found. her manager made up some story that he actually wrote the song with her. even tho a couple thousand people heard this play out live on the radio. anyway not to center myself here but my facebook profile has a big fat nin logo on it. i know it sounds dumb but when i read her saying something about “try to discredit me” i was like eh, maybe? she probably didn’t read my comment at all and there’s no way to know but the timing sure is funny.

Erneuert
06-14-2021, 05:59 PM
https://imgur.com/gallery/IFMfq9i

She’s recanted.

Well that deescalated quickly.

Jinsai
06-14-2021, 06:05 PM
Well that deescalated quickly.
probably because a team of lawyers just woke her out of a heroin haze

eachpassingphase
06-14-2021, 06:20 PM
She worked with him in 2018 and has said nothing about all the allegations against him. lol at it all.

Courtney was acting very surprised and indignant in her Instagram comments when her followers asked her about Manson a few months ago. She gave the impression that she didn’t believe the allegations and still supported Manson. Additionally, Manson’s wife and Courtney are still following each other and liking each other’s shit on social media, including Courtney’s most recent post.

This whole thing fucking reeks of Manson’s meddling bullshit. It would be so like him to try and manipulate Courtney’s clear obsession with Trent for his own gain. She has always seemed BIG FUCKING MAD that Trent didn’t return her affections.

Sorry for the conspiracy theory moment here, but this all sets off too many alarm bells for me.

If a woman came forward and said “this happened to ME and Trent was involved” - that’s a totally different story. If that hypothetical woman existed and came forward I would support her and listen. But this? Nah, no way.

I wish her recanting on Instagram stories was a little more fucking specific.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sonic_discord
06-14-2021, 06:40 PM
I'm glad she took it back, but IMO, one small message in her IG story is NOT enough. The damage has been done, the story has been published in several publications online, and has been circulating all over social media. Many people online have already passed judgement on Trent and will never hear about her recanting it. TR (and Dave) should seriously sue her for libel and/or defamation of character. The kind of shit she just publicly accused him of is the kind of shit you do not fucking kid around about. Those are VERY serious allegations and making false accusations about that sort of thing should have some equally serious consequences.

ekrekel
06-14-2021, 06:44 PM
probably because a team of lawyers just woke her out of a heroin haze

Do you think Dave and Trent share a "Courtney" lawyer or are there 2 teams of paralegals monitoring her socials 24/7?

Jinsai
06-14-2021, 06:51 PM
Do you think Dave and Trent share a "Courtney" lawyer or are there 2 teams of paralegals monitoring her socials 24/7?

Honestly they probably have some kind of guy who at least knows the guy who represents the gal who knows the guy... there's no way someone at that level doesn't have a thundering "emergency!" notification before any of the people on a fan board hears about it. It goes way beyond a "google alerts" kind of thing.

eachpassingphase
06-14-2021, 06:54 PM
Do you think Dave and Trent share a "Courtney" lawyer or are there 2 teams of paralegals monitoring her socials 24/7?

I feel like I saw somebody say that Dave specifically has a lawyer that deals with her. Maybe that's a myth, I dunno. But I don't think you would need somebody scouring the internet for her online activities. Information travels so fast that it wouldn't take long to hear about her bullshit.

In this situation though, she straight up tagged them in those instagram posts. So they would have seen it immediately. Jesus, imagine eating dinner with your family or whatever and getting that notification on your phone. I would have stroked out for real, even if I knew it wasn't true.

Jinsai
06-14-2021, 06:56 PM
I am almost certain that Dave Grohl has a lawyer who spends a significant amount of his time making sure Courtney Love doesn't fuck with Dave.

ManBurning
06-14-2021, 06:56 PM
My take is she is just jealous of Trent's post 90s success, going on to win golden globes and Oscars.

Of all her "peers" from that era, Trent/NIN and Dave Grohl are the only relevant ones these days.
Hole, Manson, Pumpkins... they're all washed up. None of them went on to score movies and win awards, get into Rock in Roll HOF etc.

Trent is legit the only one that cleaned himself up and made an act for himself.

Courtney doesn't want to come out on Mr Manson because trash likes hanging out with trash.

I don't believe anything that comes out of her mouth.

But it does make some interesting reading material on a Monday.

Zimbo
06-14-2021, 06:58 PM
Lol what a big dummy that person is. Good riddance.


Wow. That was quick. WTF Courtney Love.

allegro
06-14-2021, 07:03 PM
I'm glad she took it back, but IMO, one small message in her IG story is NOT enough. The damage has been done, the story has been published in several publications online, and has been circulating all over social media. Many people online have already passed judgement on Trent and will never hear about her recanting it. TR (and Dave) should seriously sue her for libel and/or defamation of character. The kind of shit she just publicly accused him of is the kind of shit you do not fucking kid around about. Those are VERY serious allegations and making false accusations about that sort of thing should have some equally serious consequences.
But this isn’t new, she’s talked about the stuff that she saw on that tour many times. She wrote a few songs about it. And she is saying “abuse” and she isn’t really saying what it is and who did it. Other than Reznor is a “creep” who is talented. Anything else about “accusations” is being dreamed up in the imaginations of everyone else.

Reznor used to be accused of being the ringleader of debauchery on those tours, and he insisted he was just an “observer.” But many back then were saying it was his tour, he was the boss, and it doesn’t matter how drunk or high you are, you’re still ultimately in charge and it’s your responsibility. And if drunk roadies are banging underage girls on a tour bus in exchange for passes, or if they’re all throwing bologna at a naked girl on all four to see how much of it sticks (all stories that circulated), then the buck stops at the top.

Her point re Grohl is something we all know nothing about unless we examine their financial documents, but I wouldn’t put it past Grohl.

So, what provoked it? Who knows. She’s still a big proponent of feminism, although I don’t know how she’s navigating MeToo with all the Manson victims. She’s giving him a pass and I’m wondering when that will end. It should. She also maybe feels guilty about the NIN tour, because she was THERE and indirectly profited from it, and didn’t “do” anything about it. So it’s not her MeToo (as she says), but she maybe partly blames herself for not doing anything about it. The Grohl situation appears deliberate as part of negotiations.

implanted_microchip
06-14-2021, 07:10 PM
She straight up posted a story claiming Trent was a child predator going after girls as young as 12, it just got taken down because stories aren’t permanent posts. It was a lot more direct than the other post she made and couldn’t be read as anything other than a direct claim. I’m pretty sure someone posted a link to screenshots in here a couple pages back, it’s way more extreme than saying “oh he was encouraging bad behavior on tour.”

allegro
06-14-2021, 07:25 PM
She straight up posted a story claiming Trent was a child predator going after girls as young as 12
She said “systemic abuse of kids by him and his crew.” She didn’t say sexual abuse. You guys did. Again, she’s been telling this story for decades.

thelastdisciple
06-14-2021, 07:37 PM
She said “systemic abuse of kids by him and his crew.” She didn’t say sexual abuse. You guys did. Again, she’s been telling this story for decades.

https://i.postimg.cc/hJbsKhg4/Screenshot-2021-06-14-at-20-35-20-y3ank8nub2571-jpg-WEBP-Image-750-1334-pixels-Scaled-70.png (https://postimg.cc/hJbsKhg4)

This is the post implanted_microchip was referring to.

Click for larger image.

allegro
06-14-2021, 07:43 PM
https://i.postimg.cc/hJbsKhg4/Screenshot-2021-06-14-at-20-35-20-y3ank8nub2571-jpg-WEBP-Image-750-1334-pixels-Scaled-70.png (https://postimg.cc/hJbsKhg4)

This is the post implanted_microchip was referring to.

Click for larger image.

Ahhhhh okay. I didn’t see that one. This will certainly get interesting

thefragile_jake
06-14-2021, 07:43 PM
https://i.postimg.cc/hJbsKhg4/Screenshot-2021-06-14-at-20-35-20-y3ank8nub2571-jpg-WEBP-Image-750-1334-pixels-Scaled-70.png (https://postimg.cc/hJbsKhg4)

This is the post @implanted_microchip (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4417) was referring to.

Click for larger image.

As someone who has a family member battling a horrible downward spiral (no pun intended) with alcoholism, this reads like a late night drunken sad rant when they need to be off social media.

poinoup
06-14-2021, 07:44 PM
It eats her up that she'll be more known for being "Kurt Cobain's wife" than anything else.

Erneuert
06-14-2021, 07:47 PM
In my mind she is always like the female version of Manson: I’ve never listened to either of their bands or songs; they both give off abhorrent stenches just by looking at them, and trouble follows them wherever they go. She’s another dopey clown I’m glad I never glanced at twice.

botley
06-14-2021, 07:53 PM
Maybe let's just back off and let this non-story slide into the memory hole. She took down the post and apologized for it just now on her Instagram.

otnavuskire
06-14-2021, 07:56 PM
Maybe let's just back off and let this non-story slide into the memory hole. She took down the post and apologized for it just now on her Instagram.

It's a bit late for that unfortunately as pretty much every music news site has picked up the story.

allegro
06-14-2021, 07:58 PM
She even accused Grohl of seducing her daughter back in 2012 (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/courtney-love-accuses-dave-grohl-of-hitting-on-frances-bean-cobain-61949/), both of them denied it. There just seems to be a lot of hate in her heart towards Dave and Trent.

Frances’ roommate told Courtney that Dave hit on Frances, meaning the roommate interpreted it as a sexual advance toward Frances. Later, Frances said she didn’t take it that way. But Courtney didn’t make the whole thing up. That being said, Courtney does seem to have a mental situation that is occasionally untreated, where she goes off the rails toward people she seems to feel really hurt her. She’s been reportedly sober for a long time, so any current outbursts are seemingly not due to substance abuse. I see others on social media (not celebrities) who go off the rails out of nowhere sometimes like this, too, with hair triggers.

tony.parente
06-14-2021, 08:14 PM
Courtney is about as sober as Bam Margera

Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)
06-14-2021, 08:29 PM
J Mascis said Courtney used to call his dads house every day for 3 months in the late 80s to try and track down J because she was obsessed with him.......J met her when Dino Jr toured with Nirvana. He said shes a horrible person and thinks shes responsible for Kurts demise. Buzz Osbourne was Kurts good friend and he blames Courtney for Kurts demise as well. Thurston Moore and Kim Gordon spent plenty of time with Kurt. They both fucking despise Courtney. The proof is in the pudding

Trent has 0 women accusing him of abuse
Manson has 999999999999999999999999999999999 women accusing him of abuse

sweeterthan
06-14-2021, 09:41 PM
Trent has 0 women accusing him of abuse
Manson has 999999999999999999999999999999999 women accusing him of abuse

exactly. the facts speak for themselves.

allegro
06-14-2021, 09:52 PM
Maybe let's just back off and let this non-story slide into the memory hole. She took down the post and apologized for it just now on her Instagram.

Here’s her apology
622

Magnetic
06-14-2021, 10:28 PM
".... It was insensitive and it was wrong."
Sorry, I'm angered by her bullshit. Am I alone?

shade
06-14-2021, 10:47 PM
Management and lawyer crew told her what to put up once she was back sober. Look at the text compared to #1and #2..

At this point I don't know what I'm more surprised by - this whole story or the fact that a lot of people here are eagerly ready to throw out one of their favorite bands so easily without any substantial proof.
Remember that everyone claims everything on the internet these days.
Reflection...

allegro
06-14-2021, 11:10 PM
without any substantial proof.

For the record, there is often no such thing in this country as “substantial proof” of these kinds of accusations - even the ones that Manson’s accusers are bringing forth - decades later. Or even not too long after, really.

I’m not saying Love’s accusations are credible, but we should be careful about dismissing accusations of abuse or sexual assault without “substantial proof.”

Big example: From 2001 to 2010, the (Catholic) Holy See examined sex abuse cases involving about 3,000 priests, some of which dated back fifty years (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases). There is no “substantial proof,” only victims’ accounts.

That being said, I really don’t believe there were any “12-yr-olds” backstage during the Self Destruct tour, unaccompanied or not, let alone ones being accosted by Reznor OR his staff. I followed the groupie boards for years, and the only reports on Reznor was that he was frequently with skinny goth chicks and strippers; there were a few who were maybe 18 back when he was recording TDS, but certainly not anyone who could be considered children. Iggy Pop was with younger chicks. The obvious question, for me, was how Love would know someone’s age.

Regarding her apology: She does need to be more responsible for her words. These men have children. Those innocent children don’t deserve the crap they will likely endure from this kind of shit she stirs up. It’s irresponsible and wrong.

I don’t give a fuck about Grohl or Reznor. But I do care about kids.

WorzelG
06-15-2021, 01:21 AM
I always thought if there had been something credible on TR it would have come out in the incredible 2009 hate fest when he got married. Metal Sludge had 3 threads started about him that went on for 100s of pages each. The Metal Sludge community talked of psycho NIN fans and how they were even worse than the Def Leppard community, ha! It also went on for several years but nothing like this even though they were specifically dredging up shit to hate him with. I mean if Metal Sludge staff say you’re a psycho you should probably have a little talk with yourself!

Vertigo
06-15-2021, 01:23 AM
Regarding her apology: She does need to be more responsible for her words. These men have children. Those innocent children don’t deserve the crap they will likely endure from this kind of shit she stirs up. It’s irresponsible and wrong.

I don’t give a fuck about Grohl or Reznor. But I do care about kids.

You don't give a fuck that someone who's known to have social anxiety, addiction issues and suicidal ideation is being associated with child abuse in the international press and social media sphere?

Really?

richardp
06-15-2021, 01:40 AM
You don't give a fuck that someone who's known to have social anxiety, addiction issues and suicidal ideation is being associated with child abuse in the international press and social media sphere?

Really?

Yeeeeeeah I REALLY don't think that's what Allegro was saying...

allegro
06-15-2021, 01:46 AM
You don't give a fuck that someone who's known to have social anxiety, addiction issues and suicidal ideation is being associated with child abuse in the international press and social media sphere?

Really?

No. He’s an adult. We know he’s a recovering addict, I don’t know about any of that other stuff. And he gets accused of crazy shit all the time, and it gets forgotten in a few days. This isn’t in the “international press” just because Courtney Love blathers it; and if it is, it will be forgotten by next week. He was ALREADY accused of helping Manson abuse women, and he had to issue a statement on THAT, and it was all largely forgotten.


Metal Sludge had 3 threads started about him that went on for 100s of pages each. The Metal Sludge community talked of psycho NIN fans and how they were even worse than the Def Leppard community, ha! It also went on for several years but nothing like this even though they were specifically dredging up shit to hate him with. I mean if Metal Sludge staff say you’re a psycho you should probably have a little talk with yourself!
Exactly. If this were going to come out anywhere, it would have come out on Metal Sludge. I never saw it there. Did you?

Look, someone once took photos of his PRESCRIPTION RECORDS and posted them here on ETS at about 2 a.m., that’s how fucking crazy people are.

When he started dating Mariqueen, ”fans” were sending her racist hate messages.

Remember when people effectively ran Justine “Jugs” off the board and off MySpace etc. because of those photos with her and Reznor? (And they were just friends.) Cuckoo for coconuts. Reznor’s own cuckoo fans make Courtney Love look like Mother Theresa.

WorzelG
06-15-2021, 02:03 AM
No. He’s an adult. We know he’s a recovering addict, I don’t know about any of that other stuff. And he gets accused of crazy shit all the time, and it gets forgotten in a few days. This isn’t in the “international press” just because Courtney Love blathers it; and if it is, it will be forgotten by next week. He was ALREADY accused of helping Manson abuse women, and he had to issue a statement on THAT, and it was all largely forgotten.


Exactly. If this were going to come out anywhere, it would have come out on Metal Sludge. I never saw it there. Did you?

Look, someone once took photos of his PRESCRIPTION RECORDS and posted them here on ETS at about 2 a.m., that’s how fucking crazy people are.

Remember when people effectively ran Justine “Jugs” off the board and off MySpace etc. because of those photos with her and Reznor? Cuckoo for coconuts. Reznor’s own cuckoo fans make Courtney Love look like Mother Theresa.
No I didn’t, it would have given me pause for thought, this is the last one entitled NINs Got Some Crazy Bitches Part 3.Goes on for 302 pages, lots of fandom infighting, people saying Trents marriage was a PR stunt
https://forums.metalsludge.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?t=206047

i actually feel I’ve lost some IQ points skimming that!

WorzelG
06-15-2021, 02:24 AM
Sorry for double posting but I’ve been thinking about the fact that mentally unwell fanbases do give you pause when it comes to believing anyone’s story and it reminded me of Lexa Vonn who is clearly a bit unstable but she accused Manson in 2017 of assault that sounds eerily similar to what’s come out now but it was before ERWs testimony, I’m sure she was accused of being a bit nuts here
https://floridanewstimes.com/lexa-vonn-charged-marilyn-manson-with-sexual-assault-in-2017-now-she-is-grateful-to-corey-feldman/126750/

i have to admit I thought she was talking shit too because I thought he was an overweight loser who couldn’t perform on stage for more than 10 mins without being out of breath, so you’re like how can he terrorise people physically?

Maybe the reason he can't perform onstage is he spends all his time hurling axes at women so he's exhausted by show time

shade
06-15-2021, 02:28 AM
For the record, there is often no such thing in this country as “substantial proof” of these kinds of accusations - even the ones that Manson’s accusers are bringing forth - decades later. Or even not too long after, really.

I might have a different point of view here since I've seen the other side of that door and dealt with false accusations against myself, had to play the entire tedious lawyer game, had to defend myself and luckily was believed since people that fake controlled substance prescriptions don't make the most credible witnesses.
If that didn't play out the way it did, then what?
Now I can only imagine how much more destructive it gets when words like "child abuse" and "rape" are involved.

I'm not downplaying sexual assault and child abuse. It's just today's (internet?) culture that makes it so easy to go above and beyond with this. And I think in certain circles (celebrities?) it's even more common.

To compare the random internet rambling of some psycho bitch to the Catholic church scandal is taking this too far..That's a whole different level. These self-proclaimed saints are the biggest sinners.

allegro
06-15-2021, 02:31 AM
No I didn’t, it would have given me pause for thought, this is the last one entitled NINs Got Some Crazy Bitches Part 3.Goes on for 302 pages, lots of fandom infighting, people saying Trents marriage was a PR stunt
https://forums.metalsludge.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?t=206047

i actually feel I’ve lost some IQ points skimming that!

Hey, it’s no secret that Trent Reznor’s fans are some of THE craziest wackos on the planet whose levels of obsession are unrivaled.

Remember Blaine? The author of wolf erotic novels who claimed that she and Reznor had been communicating after he read her books, and then she said he started somehow tracking her computer, and John Malm was in on it? And she was gonna go to the FBI?

WorzelG
06-15-2021, 03:51 AM
Apparently one of the only ‘celebs’ to like the original post was Manson’s wife, it’s clear to me that Manson put her up to it just so he could bring others down with him. Fuck off Manson

Trent needs to apologise for inflicting Marilyn fucking Manson on the world IMO

Courtney Love needs to get off social media and make another fucking album if she wants relevance. Why is that so hard to do?

reznovka
06-15-2021, 04:46 AM
No I didn’t, it would have given me pause for thought, this is the last one entitled NINs Got Some Crazy Bitches Part 3.Goes on for 302 pages, lots of fandom infighting, people saying Trents marriage was a PR stunt
https://forums.metalsludge.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?t=206047

i actually feel I’ve lost some IQ points skimming that!

WTF did I just read? O.o
These people need help...

WorzelG
06-15-2021, 05:31 AM
WTF did I just read? O.o
These people need help...
This is a forum, Donna's Ho Board, where on the first page of threads there is discussion about Taime Downe of Faster Pussycat - these people are stuck in a time warp! Is being a groupie dying out now or is any discourse around it on instagram or wherever?

GulDukat
06-15-2021, 08:07 AM
Here’s her apology
622

She makes some pretty damning accusations and then does a 180 the next day. Very odd.

allegro
06-15-2021, 08:10 AM
She makes some pretty damning accusations and then does a 180 the next day. Very odd.

Not for her, no. She likely had a manic episode. Or a depressed one. She types first, thinks later. She needs to reverse that process.

GulDukat
06-15-2021, 08:10 AM
WTF did I just read? O.o
These people need help...

Metal Sludge is a message board for 50 year-old men who want to debate the best Cinderella album, Dokken vs. LA Guns, etc.

Jinsai
06-15-2021, 08:36 AM
there's another weird angle to this w/ Courtney Love... besides her being notoriously unstable and "terrifying" and prone to getting wasted by all reports... she shows up in that book, The Game by Neil Strauss (the same guy who co-wrote Manson and Motley Crue's auto-biographies).

In case anyone is unfamiliar with this book, it's about the author becoming involved in the Pick Up Artist (PUA) "community," which is basically a super sleazy group of pathetic incel dudes who trade tricks on how to brainwash women into having sex with them.

Anyway, it's been a long time since I read this really gross book, but for some reason, against all reports I've heard, he paints Courtney as this sweetheart who is fascinated with his crew of PUAs and loves hanging out with them. At the end of the book the author marries the bassist in Hole.

The point I'm meandering around is... I don't know... if ANY of that is true, Courtney Love seems to be someone who is delighted by fucked-up disgusting people, and not horribly offended by depraved behavior.

Haysey_Draws
06-15-2021, 09:00 AM
I was away for 2 days and this happens and ends...good grief. I still stand by if someone does come out with a claim against TR i'll take it seriously, but to come out with such a heavy accusation and then within 24 hours revoke it just makes anyone with an actual claim less likely to come forward. People will just say "is this another CL story?" she's done nobody any favors...

ickyvicky
06-15-2021, 09:18 AM
Alrighty then, now that's all said and done with....

I'm surprised nothing has come out yet with the police investigations on Manson. Since all this started in January/early February?

wizfan
06-15-2021, 09:24 AM
At the end of the book the author marries the bassist in Hole.

Huh, Neil Strauss and Melissa Auf der Maur were married once? Or was it a different bassist? I never finished that book.

Jinsai
06-15-2021, 09:47 AM
maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I'm pretty sure that was the ending of that book... like "and then I learned something, and fell in love with the bassist in Hole."

Jazzkokehead
06-15-2021, 11:11 AM
If any actual abuse happened, I would certainly like to know about it, but Courtney Love may be the only person in music with less credibility than Manson. The fact that she seemed to backtrack so quickly doesn't help. Like, if you know something, don't make vague accusations (25 or 30 years after the fact, no less) - be specific about what you were witness to.

She claimed that other members of Hole would back her up. If they corroborated her version of events, I'd certainly listen. But so far, they haven't. I know Trent was heavily into drugs and alcohol in the 90's, so I'm under no illusion that he was a saint. Still, substance abuse doesn't necessarily translate into pedophilia, which seems to be what she's suggesting here.

ekrekel
06-15-2021, 12:00 PM
...there's no way someone at that level doesn't have a thundering "emergency!" notification before any of the people on a fan board hears about it....

TR: "What do you think I keep you asshats around for?" /s

ETS may be one of the better sources for these sort of on-goings, who better? If some PR intern is tasked with doing it, I'd be surprised if NIN Spotting wasn't a regular resource for this sort of thing.

otnavuskire
06-15-2021, 01:06 PM
Music media sites are finally changing their stories to reflect the "apology."

CSPSmith
06-15-2021, 10:56 PM
Remember Blaine? The author of wolf erotic novels who claimed that she and Reznor had been communicating after he read her books, and then she said he started somehow tracking her computer, and John Malm was in on it? And she was gonna go to the FBI?

Dude, I was catfished before catfishing was even a sport. Let it go and move on. I certainly have.

WorzelG
06-16-2021, 04:16 AM
The comments about Courtney on a lot of the instagram music posts are really nasty - I mean I found this annoying but wouldn't say the things being said on the loudwire one for example!

Of course it just dredges up the 'you killed Kurt' crowd and most of them are women IMO so its not as simple as 'what do you except from misogynist incel men' which is how people usually pass it off!

allegro
06-16-2021, 12:44 PM
I did find out another thing - Courtney was in Epstein's black book and actually circled as being a potential witness!

https://gawker.com/here-is-pedophile-billionaire-jeffrey-epsteins-little-b-1681383992

Did you read the rest of the black book (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1508273-jeffrey-epsteins-little-black-book-redacted.html) for who ELSE is in there?

Read the rest of the story in your link as to why those names are circled as potential material witnesses. The whole thing was a money-making scam, for which the culprit went to prison and has since died. The circles were made by HIM.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1508099-rodriguez-fbi-affidavit.html

WorzelG
06-16-2021, 01:11 PM
Did you read the rest of the black book (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1508273-jeffrey-epsteins-little-black-book-redacted.html) for who ELSE is in there?

Read the rest of the story in your link as to why those names are circled as potential material witnesses. The whole thing was a money-making scam, for which the culprit went to prison and has since died. The circles were made by HIM.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1508099-rodriguez-fbi-affidavit.html
Yes he tried to sell it but I didn’t think that meant the info was erroneous, it’s still the black book isn’t it?

sonic_discord
06-16-2021, 01:23 PM
Did you read the rest of the black book (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1508273-jeffrey-epsteins-little-black-book-redacted.html) for who ELSE is in there?


Not at all surprised to see Ghislaine Maxwell and most of the Trump family in there, but wasn't expecting Steve Gottlieb!! Haha!

Toadflax
06-16-2021, 02:43 PM
Huh, Neil Strauss and Melissa Auf der Maur were married once? Or was it a different bassist? I never finished that book.


maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I'm pretty sure that was the ending of that book... like "and then I learned something, and fell in love with the bassist in Hole."

It was Lisa Leveridge, who was in a different Courtney Love band.

MrLobster
06-16-2021, 02:57 PM
He's been married once (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Strauss#Marriage_and_divorce) (wiki link)

I've started listening to his true crime podcasts and reconciling the Game guy with this iteration is kind messing with me but he's allowed to change for the better.

ekrekel
06-16-2021, 04:42 PM
..........Cortney was in Epstein's black book and actually circled as being a potential witness!.......

ahhhh, the sweet smell of near-certain perjury....

reznovka
06-17-2021, 12:53 AM
https://www.instagram.com/p/CQKwMGyDN1R/?utm_medium=copy_link

And the next page found the old quotes.

shade
06-17-2021, 01:27 AM
https://www.instagram.com/p/CQKwMGyDN1R/?utm_medium=copy_link

And the next page found the old quotes.

Misogyny in music? I'm laughing hard at some of the memes they have up there. Ouch. No wonder a lot of people can't take feminism seriously anymore... If only it wasn't so sad.

allegro
06-17-2021, 02:02 AM
ahhhh, the sweet smell of near-certain perjury....

She wasn’t pegged as a potential witness by any prosecution: it was by some guy trying to sell the black book for ransom, who was arrested and then put in prison.

WorzelG
06-17-2021, 03:36 AM
Elie Weisel is in the black book. David Blaine is in the black book. Barbara Walters is in the black book. Simon LeBon is in the black book. Henry Kissinger is in the black book. David Koch is in the black book. Ethel Kennedy is in the black book. Mick Jagger is in the black book. Michael Jackson is in the black book. Tony Blair is in the black book. Conrad Black is in the black book. Alec Baldwin is in the black book.
OK OK I'll prob delete my post

M1ke
06-17-2021, 07:18 AM
Misogyny in music? I'm laughing hard at some of the memes they have up there. Ouch. No wonder a lot of people can't take feminism seriously anymore... If only it wasn't so sad.

Hey, the quote in there certainly looks bad given the context that we're looking at things through right now.

I mean, I think he's trying to say "don't make music for underage girls, we don't need to pander to them" in an angry way because he wanted to support Manson in making music that pushed the boundaries, but the quote is "Fuck underage chicks"..."I told Manson to just do it".

That really looks bad given what Manson's done.

But I have to question myself too, am I just looking at this through rose coloured glasses because I'm a fan, and I don't want it to be true? I don't know. I hope not, because if that quote was meant in the literal sense then that's pretty fucked.

WorzelG
06-17-2021, 07:22 AM
Hey, the quote in there certainly looks bad given the context that we're looking at things through right now.

I mean, I think he's trying to say "don't make music for underage girls, we don't need to pander to them" in an angry way because he wanted to support Manson in making music that pushed the boundaries, but the quote is "Fuck underage chicks"..."I told Manson to just do it".

That really looks bad given what Manson's done.

But I have to question myself too, am I just looking at this through rose coloured glasses because I'm a fan, and I don't want it to be true? I don't know. I hope not, because if that quote was meant in the literal sense then that's pretty fucked.
Somebody had put up a few posts of a discussion on instagram about it from people who were there but they've been taken down. I'm sure Leviathan was there and it was being transcribed on the hotline so maybe he can shed some light

slave2thewage
06-17-2021, 07:38 AM
He’s literally ranting about those girl acts that were dominating pop music at the time. It’s badly worded (given that it’s from late 1999, it’s within the realm of possibility that he wasn’t sober during this) but the context is obvious when reading the whole thing.

I swear, Facebook has destroyed reading comprehension over the last five years.

sonic_discord
06-17-2021, 09:39 AM
Yeah, that is absolutely taken out of context. He's clearly saying "fuck Mandy Moore and fuck [catering to] underage chicks [as an audience], just go do what you do without being concerned about commercial appeal." Do you really think TR would publicly tell a journalist that he told Manson to fuck underage girls? Like seriously?

Haysey_Draws
06-17-2021, 11:23 AM
I can see these out of context comments being big news (off the back of the CL non story) for 5mins and then the next big online dog pile will happen. There's isn't enough here for most to really get riled by, and the few that actually looks into them will see the context and how much of a non story it is. The only ones who really get vocal will get distracted when a bigger target with more tangible evidence (or more easily out of context sound bites) appear.

That's internet 2021, everyone loves a dog pile. An easy punch to score internet kudos with the smallest effort...

Wretchedest
06-17-2021, 11:57 AM
I don't want to be so quick to rush to the defense of someone just because I like their music, and we can be skeptical of Courtney's claim without stigmatizing things that are stigmatized like addiction, etc.

Also... There are groupie boards?

sweeterthan
06-17-2021, 01:39 PM
here’s what Leviathant posted to reddit a few months back when this came up there.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nin/comments/mahhcr/trent_said_something_very_troubling_22_years_ago/gru7o9w/

the quote is dumb. who cares if little girls make music? i’m sure trent has a different pov now.

reading is fundamental.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jinsai
06-17-2021, 02:28 PM
I don't want to be so quick to rush to the defense of someone just because I like their music, and we can be skeptical of Courtney's claim without stigmatizing things that are stigmatized like addiction, etc.

Also... There are groupie boards?what seems clear is Courtney ran onto Instagram and said something stupid because she was wasted. It's not worth analyzing beyond that point.

reznovka
06-17-2021, 02:38 PM
I don't want to be so quick to rush to the defense of someone just because I like their music, and we can be skeptical of Courtney's claim without stigmatizing things that are stigmatized like addiction, etc.

Also... There are groupie boards?

There is one person, not a victim, claiming that she saw (and watched without acting) something more than 20 years ago. The interview quotes surfaced on twitter a while ago and there was noone claiming to be a victim.

So we have no crime but a crazy professional widow posting stuff for some minutes and deleting it.

Even if I wouldn't care about Trent I'd be on his side.
Give me another member of Hole telling the same story or a victim, then I'd change my view but right now we have the unreliable narrator throwing shit at people.

sweeterthan
06-17-2021, 03:38 PM
Misogyny in music? I'm laughing hard at some of the memes they have up there. Ouch. No wonder a lot of people can't take feminism seriously anymore... If only it wasn't so sad.

misogyny is in every industry no doubt. we cannot let shit like this distract us from doing what’s right. unfortunately i’m easily baited when it comes to nin and i commented on the post. i put matt’s reddit post in a reply to the account. i hope they read it and take the post down or at least clarify the context.

it’s really weird to me that people want to convict trent reznor based on something courtney love and marilyn manson said. they’re both abusers. the people in their lives have told us so. reznor told us so. i don’t see why anyone would believe either of them on the subject of him.

M1ke
06-17-2021, 03:48 PM
here’s what @Leviathant (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=1) posted to reddit a few months back when this came up there.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nin/comments/mahhcr/trent_said_something_very_troubling_22_years_ago/gru7o9w/

the quote is dumb. who cares if little girls make music? i’m sure trent has a different pov now.

reading is fundamental.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks, I'm glad to read about it from someone who remembers the interview.

I don't recall this exact one, but I did read and watch many interviews in that time period, and shitting on pop music was a regular theme in his interviews back then. If he was drinking at the time, it would make sense that his thoughts might not have come out fully formed, which could easily lead to this sort of quote.

Thanks for posting that, I'm going to go back to not wondering about it unless something new comes to light.

WorzelG
06-17-2021, 04:00 PM
That comment about little girls making music reminds me of support for Queen Kwong where she said it was like a brother relationship when she was 17 I think. I just think if he was some underage girl perv he’d have tried it on with her.

Wretchedest
06-17-2021, 06:27 PM
There is one person, not a victim, claiming that she saw (and watched without acting) something more than 20 years ago. The interview quotes surfaced on twitter a while ago and there was noone claiming to be a victim.

So we have no crime but a crazy professional widow posting stuff for some minutes and deleting it.

Even if I wouldn't care about Trent I'd be on his side.
Give me another member of Hole telling the same story or a victim, then I'd change my view but right now we have the unreliable narrator throwing shit at people.

This is kind of what I'm talking about though like... Can we not call a Grammy winning artist in her own right a professional widow? Ffs

onthewall2983
06-17-2021, 07:11 PM
This is kind of what I'm talking about though like... Can we not call a Grammy winning artist in her own right a professional widow? Ffs

When Johnny Carson was told he was a national treasure by Mike Wallace, he joked back “now you know what the dollar is worth”.

Jinsai
06-17-2021, 07:28 PM
Courtney Love is not just a "grammy winning artist" as if that REALLY means shit... it's an award your label buys for you. She has issues, and it's not been something people haven't talked about. She dragged a journalist by her hair into the street and tried to beat the shit out of her because she didn't like something she said. People are scared of her, and it's not because she's a "grammy winning artist"

ltrandazzo
06-17-2021, 11:00 PM
I’m still the person who chuckles at the end of Captain Marvel where “Celebrity Skin” plays over the end titles of a movie where the lead wears a NIN shirt for around half the film.

reznovka
06-17-2021, 11:45 PM
This is kind of what I'm talking about though like... Can we not call a Grammy winning artist in her own right a professional widow? Ffs

It's a quote by Tori Amos and all I know her for in the last years if being the wife of Kurt Cobain, being in fights and now she ranted about Grohl because of money for music she didn't write.

Wretchedest
06-18-2021, 02:58 AM
Courtney Love is not just a "grammy winning artist" as if that REALLY means shit... it's an award your label buys for you. She has issues, and it's not been something people haven't talked about. She dragged a journalist by her hair into the street and tried to beat the shit out of her because she didn't like something she said. People are scared of her, and it's not because she's a "grammy winning artist"

Right. But there are mysognystic undertones to acting like she rode someone else to the top and didn't do anything on her own. I am not defending the things she has done, by any means, I am just weary of these kinds of characterizations. It's not the "Grammy" in my comment that matters it's the fact that she created works on her own and framing a complex traumatic traumatic event as something a complex person experienced in a wholly positive way is absolutely toxic no matter who you are talking about. It's not just disparaging to her, but to all survivors of suicide. The oversimplification does us no favors.

WorzelG
06-18-2021, 03:18 AM
Right. But there are mysognystic undertones to acting like she rode someone else to the top and didn't do anything on her own. I am not defending the things she has done, by any means, I am just weary of these kinds of characterizations. It's not the "Grammy" in my comment that matters it's the fact that she created works on her own and framing a complex traumatic traumatic event as something a complex person experienced in a wholly positive way is absolutely toxic no matter who you are talking about. It's not just disparaging to her, but to all survivors of suicide. The oversimplification does us no favors.
I absolutely think she should do a new album - however to slag off Grohl because he has other sources of income and isn't reliant on the Nirvana fortune is beyond the pale. I mean she can't get much money for the albums she released as Hole because they are so few so is it really so off to call her professional widow as the nirvana money is what she lives off? I mean her last album was 2010 - do another album and tour and the income is sorted

reznovka
06-18-2021, 07:52 AM
I absolutely think she should do a new album - however to slag off Grohl because he has other sources of income and isn't reliant on the Nirvana fortune is beyond the pale. I mean she can't get much money for the albums she released as Hole because they are so few so is it really so off to call her professional widow as the nirvana money is what she lives off? I mean her last album was 2010 - do another album and tour and the income is sorted

That's exactly my point. I don't wanna say that she didn't do anything on her own. She's part of one (if not THE most) successfull female band. She has my repect for that.

But all I know her for nowadays is fighting over money she doesn't deserve.

Jinsai
06-18-2021, 11:29 AM
it's totally fair to point out that there's misogynistic tones to a lot of the criticism that gets thrown at Courtney. It's also fair to say we should be able to criticize her without being accused of sexist dog-piling.

allegro
06-18-2021, 01:32 PM
But all I know her for nowadays is fighting over money she doesn't deserve.

This is what Courtney said:

"I’m over being made small. And being ‘forced’ to ‘just drop it’ when it affects every generation of my descendants."

See this: https://www.thethings.com/who-inherited-more-from-kurt-cobain-frances-bean-or-courtney-love/


When Frances started getting funds from her trust, it made her in control of all the publicity rights to her father's name and image instead of Love, but the Hole singer was still in control of two-thirds of the estate.

The same year Frances started receiving funds from her trust, Love sold her the rights to Cobain’s name and likeness, in exchange for a reported $2.75 million loan from the trust.

Love's net worth as of right now is $100 million, mostly from what she inherited from her husband, but since she gave it all to Frances, it is unclear how she's still worth a good sum of money.

Recent legal documents also say that Frances earns over $100,000 per month from her father's estate in the form of royalties, publishing rights, and investment dividends.

They say that Cobain's estate is estimated to be worth about $200 million, through royalties, etc. That's why Frances' net worth is slated at $200 million. She'll eventually get the whole inheritance, including any future assets, whether they be worth $200 million or $450 million when she's 30.

Frances Bean Cobain will be 29 on August 18, 2021.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2019/02/07/kurt-cobains-daughter-frances-bean-talks-guilt-inheriting-fortune/2806822002/

https://www.cnbc.com/2014/04/04/kurt-cobain-and-the-big-business-of-dead-celebs.html


But all I know her for nowadays is fighting over money she doesn't deserve.
So do you mean a mother fighting over money that her daughter doesn't deserve? Or Kurt's grandchildren don't deserve? Because THAT is what this is really about.

allegro
06-18-2021, 01:55 PM
[Professional Widow] a quote song by Tori Amos
Tori Amos wrote that song because Tori Amos was being a mean bitch. Plain and simple.

WorzelG
06-18-2021, 02:14 PM
This is what Courtney said:

"I’m over being made small. And being ‘forced’ to ‘just drop it’ when it affects every generation of my descendants."

See this: https://www.thethings.com/who-inherited-more-from-kurt-cobain-frances-bean-or-courtney-love/



Frances Bean Cobain will be 29 on August 18, 2021.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2019/02/07/kurt-cobains-daughter-frances-bean-talks-guilt-inheriting-fortune/2806822002/

https://www.cnbc.com/2014/04/04/kurt-cobain-and-the-big-business-of-dead-celebs.html


So do you mean a mother fighting over money that her daughter doesn't deserve? Or Kurt's grandchildren don't deserve? Because THAT is what this is really about.
theres no mention in that of what the rest of Nirvana are earning though and they seem to be doing ok. Tiniest violin being played for her financial woes here. Frances gets $100,000 a month, boo hoo

allegro
06-18-2021, 02:21 PM
theres no mention in that of what the rest of Nirvana are earning though and they seem to be doing ok. Tiniest violin being played for her financial woes here

Nobody involved has "financial woes," nor are they claiming such. It's about principle, that's how she sees it. It's not about money, it's about control. It's about "legacy."

She was pissed when "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was licensed to be used for a Muppets movie, for instance, under the song management agreement. It's about brand, and when you make royalty decisions, it can affect the brand. It's all complicated stuff. She's allowed to have an opinion about it. She's the widow of the guy who wrote all the songs and her daughter owns all the publishing rights.

Courtney is worth over $100 million. She doesn't have any financial woes. She is no longer collecting anything from Kurt's estate. Whatever her opinion is, it's in the interest of her daughter.

So Dave's the "good guy" and he's really rich, but Frances and Courtney are already rich enough. See, this is the dopey stuff, here. We aren't in a position to "defend" any of these people. We don't KNOW them. But, people immediately go "Courtney is a bitchy addict whore, Dave is a great guy" but don't factor in Courtney's mental issues and maybe didn't witness that whole year or two or more of shit that went on after Kurt killed himself, but I saw that tour, I followed her on Usenet, and it was like watching somebody killing themselves, slowly. She was like a walking wound. But she's still labeled a pariah, blamed for Kurt's death even though he was a junkie way before her, even though he was a mess, had his own mental health issues; it's so much easier to just blame her.

And, really, this has all just become drift in this thread, now, because she's apologized and this is all moot.

allegro
06-18-2021, 05:30 PM
Also... There are groupie boards?

Yes. There’s one where Bebe Buell occasionally hung out and got into fights.

There's the Penis Chart (http://metalsludge.tv/classic/?p=27041).

The now-defunct Groupie Dirt was one of the funniest.


Any girl who would seriously consider bedding Bas [Sebastian Bach] needs to be committed (as in loony bin, not ardent in pursuit!!). Sebastian is a bitter, two faced spoiled brat with a head the size of a country and a brain the size of an amoeba.

Here’s the archived Groupie Dirt report on Trent Reznor (http://web.archive.org/web/20040901055245/http://www.groupiedirt.com/).

Meanwhile:


Red Hot Chili Peppers lead singer Anthony Kiedis apparently isn't so hot: he's been described as "boring," according to one groupie who had him. She adds, "I know he likes 15-year-old girls and I'm in my 20s, so maybe I'm too old for him!"

Meanwhile, see this story (https://www.kqed.org/pop/61190/the-groupie-myth-how-teens-are-exploited-both-on-the-road-and-online). And this one (https://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2014/04/that-one-time-i-was-a-teenage-groupie).

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/mar/15/i-wouldnt-want-this-for-anybodys-daughter-will-metoo-kill-off-the-rocknroll-groupie

reznovka
06-18-2021, 11:27 PM
So do you mean a mother fighting over money that her daughter doesn't deserve? Or Kurt's grandchildren don't deserve? Because THAT is what this is really about.

Did the daughter write the songs? I know it's her right to get the money but "deserving" isn't the right word here. She's a model and I guess she doesn't need the money.
I still get your point.

But why does Love have to post about it publicly?
If it's her right, a court will give it to her. That's it.

Magnetic
06-19-2021, 09:02 AM
If it's her right, a court will give it to her. That's it.

I don't have a dog in this fight, and I think CL is a piece of shit.... But the legal system isn't some magical place where everything is put right. It's a lot of politics, money and power play.

Back to the topic, I wish there was some sort of comeuppance for her posting bullshit and then recanting. Not everyone reads the recant.

reznovka
06-19-2021, 11:54 AM
I don't have a dog in this fight, and I think CL is a piece of shit.... But the legal system isn't some magical place where everything is put right. It's a lot of politics, money and power play.



It's still useless to attack him via IG story. This could be bad for a case since some might fact check the stories and won't give her anything. I don't really care tbh.

Still waiting for the other Hole-members to back her up.

Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)
06-19-2021, 03:18 PM
Frances admitted herself in an interview that she doesn't deserve the money and feels guilty over getting it.....And this idea Kurt was a vagabond junkie before Courtney is total bullshit. Its been reported multiple times she was the one who introduced Kurt to heroin. Thurston Moore and Kim Gordon have talked about how much they loved Kurt and what a nightmare it was having to deal with her and how Kurt changed whenever he was around her. Mark Arm and Buzz Osbourne said he turned into a different person once she came into the picture. Grohl told stories at how Kurt was fun to be around when they were roomies in 1990 and then once Courtney hit the scene, Kurt turned into a different person and a total junkie......Shes a soul sucking vampire who wrecked his life.

From the infamous Vanity Fair 1992 article

There have been rampant reports about the couple’s drug problems, and many believe she introduced Cobain to heroin. They are expecting a baby this year, and even the most tolerant industry insiders fear for the health of the child. “It is appalling to think that she would be taking drugs when she knew she was pregnant,” says one close friend. “We’re all worried about that baby.”

"Reportedly, Kurt didn’t do much more than drink until he met Courtney."

“Courtney and Kurt are the nineties, much more talented version of Sid and Nancy,” says one executive. “She’s going to be famous and he already is, but unless something happens, they’re going to self-destruct. I know they’re both going to be big stars. I just don’t want to be a part of it.”

Twenty different sources throughout the record industry maintain that the Cobains have been heavily into heroin. Earlier this year, Kurt told Rolling Stone that he was not taking heroin, but Courtney presents another, extremely disturbing picture. “We went on a binge,” she says, referring to a period last January when Nirvana was in New York to appear on Saturday Night Live. “We did a lot of drugs. We got pills and then we went down to Alphabet City and Kurt wore a hat, I wore a hat, and we copped some dope. Then we got high and went to S.N.L. After that, I did heroin for a couple of months.”“It was horrible,” recalls a business associate who was traveling with them at the time. “Courtney was pregnant and she was shooting up. Kurt was throwing up on people in the cab. They were both out of it.”




"According to several sources, Courtney and Kurt went to separate detox hospitals in March. “After a few days, she left and went and got him,” says one insider. “They never went back."

"Only about a quarter of what Courtney says is true,” says Kat Bjelland, the leader of Babes in Toyland. “But nobody usually bothers to decipher which are the lies. She’s all about image. And that’s interesting. Irritating, but interesting.”

“Courtney’s delusional,” says Bjelland, who hasn’t spoken to her in a year. “I called her a while ago because I was worried about her baby and her sanity, but I never heard back from her. In the past, I always forgave her, but I can’t anymore. Last night, I had a dream that I killed her. I was really happy.”

reznovka
06-19-2021, 04:48 PM
Wait what?! I thought heroin wasn't TR's thing 0.o

shade
06-19-2021, 05:02 PM
Nah, it wasn't.
Alcohol and blow. Although he accidentally confused it with heroin.

Substance abuse sucks either way. In the end it doesn't matter what TR or CL or Kurt or whoever the fuck are doing or have been doing, it's always going to hell.. and very few make their way back.

sweeterthan
06-19-2021, 07:23 PM
it’s hard for me to ignore it when people are using my (matt’s) fan site to further perpetuate what courtney love accused him of. i do not find her brilliant. i don’t like most of her work (except 200 cigarettes) and the radio dj story i mentioned earlier in this thread was eye opening. she put on act and then pretended like it never happened. the DJ thought about suing her but he backed off probably coz he doesn’t have her kind of lawyer cash.

anyway i do hope this story goes away. i’m sick of it. it got her tons of attention and i’m sure that satisfies her in some way. the misogyny in music instagram profile blocked me which isn’t surprising but it is disappointing. they’re stance is that using the word “fuck” is a rape joke and we all know that’s not what reznor was saying. i bet the person who runs the account knows what he’s saying and they don’t care. they want courtney to be “right” when she already apologized and recanted. no one wins here.

Swykk
06-19-2021, 07:49 PM
Agreed @sweeterthan (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=50), and honestly it’s surprising as well as disappointing to see a few folks here advocating for such a shitty person. If you’d asked me before that waste of breath (CL) made her dumbass Instagram post if ANYONE at ETS would take it seriously, considering the source being one of the most unreliable I could ever think of, I’d have laughed and said there’s no fucking way. Zero credibility. I’m kinda pissed this thread has this many pages over this nonsense. It’s just another of her lies.

In fact, can we get a mod to cut this shit mountain from this thread out of respect to actual victims?

CSPSmith
06-19-2021, 10:23 PM
Anyone who thinks this woman is "insane" or unbalanced or even worse, a victim, is a fool. There is calculation behind her actions and her words. Regardless of what he may or may not have done, you're seeing exactly what she wants you to see and believe. She's gaslighting every single one of you, and possibly even him.

First, she never recanted anything. She "apologized for her words." That's what an abuser says when they're trying to make you doubt your own feelings and not take an ounce of blame for their abuse. "I'm sorry you feel that way," is another way to put it. She's not really sorry for anything. This is just her way of wounding him without getting any blood on her hands.

Second, one reason she's not sorry is because she didn't really, actually do anything to be sorry for, did she? Did she call him a pedophile? Nope. Did she accuse him of sexually abusing anyone? No again. Did she say he raped anyone?

Of course she didn't! She's too smart for that! One, she could get sued for slander unless she could prove it (and I highly doubt she can) and two, flat out saying what you mean isn't the way emotional and psychological manipulation works. Master manipulators (gaslighters) insinuate everything. They never paint a clear picture of anything because the last thing they want you to do is have even the slightest grip on what's going on. Case in point, what the hell does he do now? How is he supposed to handle this? Oh, and by the way, was there actually something terrible that happened to a child that he was too drunk or stoned to remember? Should he feel like shit right now?

None of us know the answer to that and he probably doesn't know either. But you know who does know?

She does. She is the manipulator. She's the gaslighter. She is the abuser and quite possibly has been all along. Besides, if she saw a child being abused back then and didn't say or do anything about it she is just as guilty as he is. She was a grown woman. She was not 12. She should have spoken up before or while it was happening. Not 20 years later when it was oh, so convenient to destroy someone's life and career.

As for why she would do this, besides the fact that some people are just assholes, it's very simple. Twenty years ago there were three crabs in a pot. Her, Manson and Trent. Trent climbed out. He cleaned up, sobered up, and became a downright respectable husband, father and musician.

That left her and Manson in that pot. And oh, hell no, that was never going to float with either of them. What she's doing right now is putting him back in his place instead of climbing her ass up to where he is. How dare you act like you're not the same drug addicted, messed up, easily dismissed fuck up that we all used to be? How dare you better yourself or clean up or leave us behind?

You don't have to be a rock star to learn just how fast the people around you - sometimes the ones closest to you - will try to tear you down when you outgrow them. I just hope he turns to what truly matters in life - his wife, his kids, his music and his real friends - and doesn't let her do to him what she may have done (either accidentally or purposely) to Kurt.

The strange thing about this is that I actually like Courtney. I don't know her personally but she seems like a strong, brilliant woman who's incredibly good at playing and winning games men have played for years. But women who are exceptional at this kind of game have to be careful not to use their talents the way men have for so many years lest we make the same mistakes they have. In short, this was a total dick move on her part. And women don't have to be dicks to be powerful.

CSPSmith
06-19-2021, 10:29 PM
And I agree. Close the thread.

Leviathant
06-19-2021, 11:55 PM
In the 90s, a lot of women who achieved national levels of recognition were written off as "crazy" or "bitch" or "stupid" or "sluts" or whatever, and decades later, that culture of misogyny appears in very stark relief when looking back with a modern eye at the celebrity gossip, late night talk shows, print press, and more.

That doesn't mean that everyone's suddenly a reliable narrator.

I largely kept my head out of this stupid fiasco, aside from adding some editorializing to the top of that Yahoo chat 'transcript' that got linked to last week.

I'm proud of the response here, it largely echoes my own thoughts on the topic. It would be a hell of a reckoning and astonishingly disappointing if something awful surfaced and was real, but as linked earlier, self-described groupies have spent decades looking for anything to give Trent a hard time, peaking when he finally got married. Nothing's come of it, and I'm not really surprised, given my own experiences at dozens and dozens of shows, and running a NIN news site for 20+ years.

There's better language to use when talking about Courtney Love. She can be right about somethings while still being demonstrably unreliable. She's clearly got demons of her own, and that's a real shame - and as these six pages cut from the other thread demonstrate, she's a highly effective chaos agent.

I've never met her, I don't expect that I ever will. I try not to let her take up any more of my attention than she already has. But then I also DGAF about TMZ or other celebrity gossip trash.

I often say I wouldn't wish fame on my worst enemy. Count this as one more reason why.

I don't want to lock this thread. I hope y'all will let it sink on its own.

ickyvicky
06-28-2021, 10:41 AM
Now she's trying to start shit about someone "stealing" her cover album. Girl, find something else to do. Honestly, I didn't even think of Live Through This when I saw that.

https://pitchfork.com/news/courtney-love-accuses-olivia-rodrigo-of-stealing-hole-album-cover-concept/

eachpassingphase
06-28-2021, 10:57 AM
Now she's trying to start shit about someone "stealing" her cover album. Girl, find something else to do. Honestly, I didn't even think of Live Through This when I saw that.

https://pitchfork.com/news/courtney-love-accuses-olivia-rodrigo-of-stealing-hole-album-cover-concept/

The depressed/deranged beauty queen look isn’t even a thing that Courtney invented. It’s basically a trope at this point ever since the original “Carrie” movie came out. Maybe before then even.

But sure, Olivia “stole” it from Courtney. Ok beloved, keep telling yourself that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

allegro
06-28-2021, 01:30 PM
Now she's trying to start shit about someone "stealing" her cover album. Girl, find something else to do. Honestly, I didn't even think of Live Through This when I saw that.

https://pitchfork.com/news/courtney-love-accuses-olivia-rodrigo-of-stealing-hole-album-cover-concept/

Weird, I instantly thought of it.

The Carrie artwork didn’t look like that (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d7/Carrieposter.jpg/220px-Carrieposter.jpg), at all. Carrie doesn’t have any Alice Cooper mascara running all over her eyes. Sissy Spacek didn’t even wear any makeup (https://carriemovies.fandom.com/wiki/Carrie_White_(1976)) in that movie.

Love’s inspiration for the art WAS Carrie.

She got photographer Ellen von Unwerth to do the shoot.

https://www.anothermag.com/art-photography/11646/the-story-behind-hole-s-iconic-live-through-this-album-cover-ellen-von-unwerth


And if those “best of” lists are any testament to Von Unwerth’s work, Billboard – back in 2015 – placed Live Through This at number 12 in their 50 Greatest Cover Albums of All Time.

The “Live Through This” cover always makes me think some burnout chick in high school (Dazed and Confused) made herself Prom Queen while she’s totally drunk. I love it.


The running eye makeup in both covers is exactly the same. Again, zero makeup on Carrie. Love isn’t asking for money. She says a thank you to her and Von Unwerth and maybe some flowers would be nice.

https://uploads-dailydot-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/AW/s/uploads.dailydot.com/2021/06/olivia-courtney-carrie.jpg?auto=compress%2Cformat&fit=scale&h=350&ixlib=php-3.3.0&w=700&wpsize=fp_800_350

poinoup
06-28-2021, 05:10 PM
Get the Elvis estate on the phone, there's been so many "ripoffs" of the cover of his debut.

allegro
06-28-2021, 07:06 PM
Get the Elvis estate on the phone, there's been so many "ripoffs" of the cover of his debut.

Of a font color and style. And they weren’t coy about where it came from. But it wasn’t copyrighted.

And neither is Love’s and Van Unwerth’s concept, although the cover photo itself, is.