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theruiner
01-12-2012, 02:51 AM
Yeah...our own thread to discuss stuff and not derail other topics. All three of us. ha ha.

So...yeah. This thread is for the discussion of various issues that fall under the 'transgender' category. I specifically picked transgender because it's an umbrella term that kind of encompasses everyone, whether you're transgender, transvestite, gender queer, etc., etc. And, of course, people who aren't transgender are more than welcome to jump into the discussion (I'm sure that was obvious, though).

I guess I'll start. The gender issues have become pretty damn intense lately. I would say worse than usual, but they've always been pretty bad. It has kind of ebbed and flowed at times, and right now it's really getting to me. I'm sure getting dangerously close to my 30s doesn't help, because I really feel that ticking clock in the back of my head. I've lost my 20s already, and I don't want to end up losing another decade if transition is indeed what I end up doing. What scares me almost as much is the idea that I'm not transsexual, that maybe it's some other sort of gender disorder, because this really, really hurts, and I'm very much leaning toward the idea of transitioning. But ultimately, I have to do what's best and if that means not doing it then I'll have to face it if and when it comes to that.

In the meantime, I'm in limbo because I don't have insurance at the moment so I have to wait to start seeing a therapist again. And when I do, I want to make sure I see someone who specializes in gender this time. No more screwing around with people who don't know what they're doing.

Anyway...that's enough venting from me. So...yeah. Talk away.


Edit: Just saw this (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/11/girl-scout-cookie-boycott-transgender_n_1199260.html?ref=mostpopular) right after starting the thread. Man, I don't know whether to be angry at, or feel bad for, this kid. I'd like to blame this on youthful ignorance (which it very well might be), but unfortunately, I think most of this country (or at least a huge portion) probably agrees with her.

orestes
01-13-2012, 07:26 PM
This is awesome.


http://youtu.be/aCDtaGCjujc

theruiner
01-13-2012, 09:57 PM
That was awesome! Thanks for sharing that.

Cat Mom
01-14-2012, 01:23 AM
Ruiner, you know I love you and I mean no offense by this, but why does it matter? Why does "gender" matter, to the point that it disturbs you and causes you discomfort to the point that it interrupts your life and hurts you? I'm genuinely curious. Because I don't give a rat's ass about my "gender" anymore than I care about my blood type or liver status.

I am, physically, female. But I don't give a shit. I sometimes have dreams that I'm a guy. And it doesn't bother me. I'm physically attracted to male humans, but that's a different subject. I wear very little makeup, don't like to be bothered by stereotypical FEMALE gender bullshit like clothes and dresses (other than the fact that dresses are more comfortable and cause fewer yeast infections, from a practical purpose), hate shopping, and stereotypical females are NEVER my good friends and I generally hate them because they're vapid.

I'm just trying to figure this out, here, as to these "issues" you always mention, and I'm trying to separate them out from stereotypes, OCD issues, transference, etc.

What IS "gender" other than a social construct? Why can't you be mutable and fluid and just YOU?

Signed,
Genuinely Curious Because I'd Like To Mutilate Malibu Barbie

sick among the pure
01-14-2012, 10:16 AM
So... http://instagr.am/p/g2i1D/

That just happened... ;)

theruiner
01-14-2012, 10:18 AM
So... http://instagr.am/p/g2i1D/

That just happened... ;)
Boom! Welcome to facial hair and the sex drive of a teenage boy, sick among the pure. :p Congrats. That's huge.

@allegro- I'm not offended in the least, and I think it's a perfectly understandable question. I will have to sit down in the next few days, when I have a few minutes and am in the right head space, and I will post a response. I'll try to keep it from being novel-sized (though I can't promise it won't be a novella).

icklekitty
01-14-2012, 01:44 PM
So... http://instagr.am/p/g2i1D/

That just happened... ;)

LMAO, because when I was a teenager I was given a cream that did the exact OPPOSITE of that. Vaniqua.
I sometimes wonder how much money I could make if I could work out how to extract my excess male hormones and swap them with FtM person.

Hula
01-14-2012, 03:01 PM
I adore you for starting this thread, ruiner.

Let's see... Genderqueer-identifying transmasculine is probably closest thing to a comfortable label for me. In short, I was born female, I I.D. as male and would like to transition physically at some point, but there are aspects of femininity that I still want to hold onto so at times it's easier to identify as cisfemale. My dysphoria's mostly physical—I haven't felt comfortable with my chest or what's between my legs in a long time, and things that would normally be considered undesirable in a girl (broad shoulders, narrow hips, plain facial features) have always been my favourite parts of my body. I do get social dysphoria from time to time in the sense that I feel a bit ill when people refer to me by female pronouns; worse than that is when friends who know about my gender issues make quips about me being 'such a girl' as though my behaviour is dictated by the fact that I have two X chromosomes. It's not so much about what's expected of me as a female, though; it's more about my body. Part of what's kept me from seeking medical transition is the knowledge that even if, after hormone treatment, people started to read me as a guy, I'd still physically be female for the most part. I prefer to pretend I'm gender-free in that respect.

To touch upon what allegro asked theruiner: things did get a little easier for me once I started I.D.ing as gender fluid rather than exclusively FTM, but it didn't change the fact that I'm female-bodied or that looking at pictures of men makes me ache to be something I'm really not. I'm kind of back to square one now because the physical dysphoria has returned with a vengeance and I'm now working somewhere that it's probably never going to be okay for me to come out, so I have to put up with being called 'she' all day and face the fact that I honest-to-god cannot do the same manual labour that my cismale workmates can.

Interesting side note—people seem to have an easier time accepting me as a transman than they do accepting me as a guy who acts/dresses in a girly way sometimes. That was the only real issue my friend (the first person I came out to) had with me being trans. Go figure.

sick among the pure
01-14-2012, 04:36 PM
LMAO, because when I was a teenager I was given a cream that did the exact OPPOSITE of that. Vaniqua.
I sometimes wonder how much money I could make if I could work out how to extract my excess male hormones and swap them with FtM person.

That would be lovely.

theruiner
01-14-2012, 07:59 PM
I adore you for starting this thread, ruiner.No prob!

To touch upon what allegro asked theruiner: things did get a little easier for me once I started I.D.ing as gender fluid rather than exclusively FTM, but it didn't change the fact that I'm female-bodied or that looking at pictures of men makes me ache to be something I'm really not.Oh God, TOTALLY absolutely right on. Almost every time I see a woman or even a picture of a woman it hits me like a ton of bricks. It's this incredibly depressing feeling that just washes over me. I've had it my entire life.

Hula
01-15-2012, 11:34 AM
It's a bit of a relief to hear from post-transition trans folk that it is possible for the feeling to go away after hormones/surgery. I'm just terrified I'll feel still feel like half a person if I ever get to that point and don't feel like a 'real' guy. FUN FUN FUN.

Also, this is an interesting link on terminology—specifically 'transgender' vs. 'transgendered' (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joanne-herman/transgender-or-transgende_b_492922.html). I've always thought there was something iffy about saying 'transgendered' (and I assumed it to be a case of poor grammar) but it now makes sense when they compare it to the P.O.C. / coloured people idea.

theruiner
01-17-2012, 05:38 AM
Any of my fellow TGers (for complete lack of a better term) ever watch 'transition' videos on Youtube? I find them both incredibly depressing and incredibly inspiring. Some of them are just insane (ignore the awful music). (http://tinyurl.com/7m57rjp) *EXAGGERATED SIGH*

Hula
01-19-2012, 06:37 PM
I started typing up this big, rambling post in the 'Little Things That Piss You Off' thread only to realise it was turning into a trans* rant. In short:

- my friend, who knows about my gender issues, seems to be going out of his way to point out that I am, in fact, female-bodied
- apparently it's not possible for a gay man to be attracted to me and still be gay
- I'LL WEAR DRESSES AND MAKE-UP IF I FUCKING WANT TO, IT DOESN'T MEAN I'M NOT TRANS AND IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T MEAN MY DICK ISN'T BIGGER THAN YOURS
- fuck.

I wonder sometimes if every day would still be such a struggle if I magically transformed into a guy overnight and erased everybody's memories of me as the girl they thought they knew, but I'm starting to think it's not the constant misgendering that bothers me but rather the ridiculously stubborn way in which people cling onto gender norms. It's like...they can wrap their head around being a tomboy or being a butch lesbian, but if you ask them to call you 'he' you're just inviting a shitstorm upon yourself.

News flash: some boys wear dresses and some girls have cocks. If you don't morally object to the idea of being transgender then I don't see why you're having such a problem understanding it.

icklekitty
01-19-2012, 06:57 PM
Tell them that gender isn't greyscale, it's technicolour. And if they still scoff, tell them I'll fuck them up and they'll have to deal with being beaten up by a ***gi-irl***

Hula
01-19-2012, 07:05 PM
I think I might just do that.

sick among the pure
01-20-2012, 05:13 PM
I've been on T for one week starting tomorrow morning. I still haven't gotten the courage or words to tell my mom about being trans. Through an e-mail. :|

theruiner
01-20-2012, 05:44 PM
I told my mom through IM. And a lot of people tell their parents in e-mail or a letter, so you're in good company.

Just make sure to do it before you have a full beard going. ;)

theruiner
01-21-2012, 12:13 PM
Ruiner, you know I love you and I mean no offense by this, but why does it matter? Why does "gender" matter, to the point that it disturbs you and causes you discomfort to the point that it interrupts your life and hurts you? I'm genuinely curious. Because I don't give a rat's ass about my "gender" anymore than I care about my blood type or liver status.

I am, physically, female. But I don't give a shit. I sometimes have dreams that I'm a guy. And it doesn't bother me. I'm physically attracted to male humans, but that's a different subject. I wear very little makeup, don't like to be bothered by stereotypical FEMALE gender bullshit like clothes and dresses (other than the fact that dresses are more comfortable and cause fewer yeast infections, from a practical purpose), hate shopping, and stereotypical females are NEVER my good friends and I generally hate them because they're vapid.

I'm just trying to figure this out, here, as to these "issues" you always mention, and I'm trying to separate them out from stereotypes, OCD issues, transference, etc.

What IS "gender" other than a social construct? Why can't you be mutable and fluid and just YOU?

Signed,
Genuinely Curious Because I'd Like To Mutilate Malibu Barbie
Sorry for getting back to you so late on this.

So, I want to make a disclaimer right up front that I'm only speaking for myself on this. I know that seems obvious, but I just don't want to make it seem like my case is typical for most transsexuals/transgender people. I'm not even sure I fit the textbook definition of transsexual, or that that's exactly what I have or not, so I might not be the best example.

Anyway...

Ok, so the thing is, it goes beyond just gender expression (though that is certainly part of it.) It's an actual dissatisfaction with ones body. For me (and I know this is different than a lot of transsexuals' experiences) I don't feel uncomfortable in my body as much as I feel like I should be female (my body, I mean). When I see women, just about every time I see a woman, I get an overwhelming feeling of longing and sadness, because that feels like who I really am, and who I need to actually physically be. It's like I was a woman and then woke up one day, inexplicably, in a male body, and I need to get back to who I was. It's felt that way since as far back as I can remember. So this goes way beyond socially constructed gender rules (which I don't believe in, anyway; I think everyone should be able to be who they are and act and dress how they like). This goes to feeling like one is in the actual wrong physical body.

Now, the sort of textbook definition of transsexual is someone who is uncomfortable in ones own body in addition to what I described above. Like I said, I can't say I really fit that, as I don't feel uncomfortable in my own skin, but a lot of transsexuals do (one of the reasons I question if I'm really transsexual). For them, their bodies don't feel right at all. I've heard it described from people who have actually had the big surgery this way: they said they felt that after their surgery, everything felt right immediately, that it was almost like their brain was mapped to have a female body (in this example, obviously reversed for FTM) and it felt completely natural and normal afterward because their brain (or how it was wired, rather) was finally matched up with the body it was supposed to have all along. Which does go with the theory that the brain in transsexuals is wired incorrectly (female brain, male body or male brain, female body). There's evidence of this, as someone mentioned in another thread, I believe, where they're finding that there's a part of the brain that is smaller in females than in males, and they've done autopsies on male to female transsexuals and found that this part of the brain was smaller in them, i.e. that they had, essentially, a "female" brain, at least that part of the brain, anyway. Which seems to back up the consensus among the community for a long, long time, which is that transsexuals were wired for the opposite sex.

Anyway, I don't know if I explained that properly, but I hope it helped to clarify things. Please let me know if that didn't make sense or there's something else you'd like to know about. :)

And please correct me if I got anything else wrong there, fellow transgender peoples (God, I wish I could come up with a decent term for that.)

icklekitty
01-21-2012, 12:59 PM
So the specific problem for you is one of dissatisfaction and not discomfort? That's a really interesting definition, and I sort of understand now why you're not sure if it's a gender or sex issue. Is there a particular kind of woman's body that makes you feel longing and sadness? A particular shape, size, etc? Or is it any female (as opposed to womanly/feminine) form?

Do you therefore think any particular kinds of surgery could help you to be more satisfied? Are you able to pinpoint specific things for change?

RE: hair, have you thought about buying a wig? I have a couple from here (http://www.contrastwigs.com/)that I got when I was losing my hair, and I'd send them to you were they not the wrong colour.

theruiner
01-21-2012, 04:25 PM
So the specific problem for you is one of dissatisfaction and not discomfort? That's a really interesting definition, and I sort of understand now why you're not sure if it's a gender or sex issue. Is there a particular kind of woman's body that makes you feel longing and sadness? A particular shape, size, etc? Or is it any female (as opposed to womanly/feminine) form?Um...I don't know. Most women, I would say, of many different shapes and sizes.


Do you therefore think any particular kinds of surgery could help you to be more satisfied? Are you able to pinpoint specific things for change?I honestly don't know that I would ever be happy unless I went all the way with it. I still feel like I'm in the wrong body, albeit in a slightly different way than the "textbook" definition (or maybe I'm not...part of the reason I want to talk to a psychologist who specializes in gender issues.)


RE: hair, have you thought about buying a wig? I have a couple from here (http://www.contrastwigs.com/)that I got when I was losing my hair, and I'd send them to you were they not the wrong colour.Thanks for the thought, anyway! Yeah, I mean, I actually really want to grow out my hair before I transition. After growing it out for over a year, I just had it cut a few days ago, and I still have mixed feelings about it. The only way I could do it was by telling myself that I can always get it back to that same length a year from now, if I decide to transition, and it'll probably take at least that long (probably longer) before I'd be ready to start living as a woman full time, if it ever comes to that. Like I said, I'm still not particularly happy about having to cut it, though.

Cat Mom
01-21-2012, 10:12 PM
You kinda lose me with the hair thing, since that's a stereotypical "gender" thing imposed TOTALLY by males. Flappers in the 20s bobbed their hair as a giant FUCK YOU to the MEN who all subscribed (and STILL subscribe) to the idea that "real" women have long hair. But we women are NOT our hair. (thanks, India.Arie) Sure, if we're going bald, it sucks, just like when men go bald, but men who define women by "long hair" are fucking living in the stone age. And if you're worried that people will define you by your hair, you got some other issues, there, my friend. You can be a SEXY attractive woman with shorter hair. Because hair is just HAIR. I know some really hot dudes with long hair (G had long hair for MANY years until only a few years ago, and he was a really really sexy dude with long hair).

"Gender Identity" is just that. Gender is a social construct, and identity is which you choose. Or both. You don't have to pick one. You can be fluid and just be "you." Fuck society's "gender" identification, you know? Try to talk with me about frilly dresses or fashion, and you lose me (and may even offend me). Talk with me about cars and boats, I may be more interested. Talk with me about how I hate bras. Or about how I love my vagina although I wouldn't mind trading it for a dick for a few days, just so I could pee under a viaduct or write my name in the snow. But then I'd want my vagina back. Because I like it. I own it, I know how it works, it's mine, I wouldn't trade it, I don't hate it. Do I define myself by it? No. My brain and my intellect is what defines me. My body is just something that gets me to the store and back and gets me from one day to the next.

I like Hula's idea about the whole thing: s/he seems to like aspects of both. And THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Hating parts of your own body is normal FOR ALL SEXES. Shit, I've hated my boobs since I was 13. I was gonna get a boob job until I realized that they're MY boobs and I wouldn't want some other boobs, so I kept them and I love them because they're mine and nobody else's.

You mean, you haven't seen a specialist, yet, who specializes in gender issues?

theruiner
01-21-2012, 10:25 PM
^^Whoa, slow down, allegro. I never said women were defined by long hair or that men couldn't have long hair or any of that. As I said in the 'Piss You Off' thread, that's just a personal preference of mine. To be mad at me for that, you would have to also get mad every woman OR man who has long hair and enjoys having long hair. It's just a personal preference, and I never said or even insinuated otherwise. Yes, as a guy, I think short hair looks better on me, and it's easier to manage. I'm not saying ALL men have to feel that way, I'm just saying what happens to look best on me. As a woman, I would like to have long hair because that's just the way I feel I'd like my hair.

Secondly, yes, I do think having long hair would probably help people transition better, because yes, we are living in the stone age, unfortunately, at least as far as transsexuals go. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would guess that there probably are transsexuals out there who feel having long hair will help them differentiate themselves from their male self, and you know what? I'm not going to knock them if they feel that way. I've lived my entire life feeling I've been the wrong gender, and I know the pain of having people constantly address me as a male when inside I'm not sure that's how I really feel. So if long hair were something that I felt I wanted to do to help curb that issue, it wouldn't be a statement about how women should have long hair, it would be a personal preference, and maybe help me look a little less like my male self, since everyone has known me my entire life with short hair. And if you don't like that, frankly, I don't really give a crap. You haven't been in my situation and you haven't felt what I've been feeling for the past 29 years and you don't know what it's like to have to transition from one sex to another and to begrudge someone that is just ridiculous.



"Gender Identity" is just that. Gender is a social construct, and identity is which you choose. Or both. You don't have to pick one. You can be fluid and just be "you." Fuck society's "gender" identification, you know? Try to talk with me about frilly dresses or fashion, and you lose me (and may even offend me). Talk with me about cars and boats, I may be more interested. Talk with me about how I hate bras. Or about how I love my vagina although I wouldn't mind trading it for a dick for a few days, just so I could pee under a viaduct or write my name in the snow. But then I'd want my vagina back. Because I like it. I own it, I know how it works, it's mine, I wouldn't trade it, I don't hate it. Do I define myself by it? No. My brain and my intellect is what defines me. My body is just something that gets me to the store and back and gets me from one day to the next.

And no one's arguing that gender isn't a social construct. But I feel the way I feel. Yes, I like feminine things, and yes, I do feel that my body is probably wrong. I tried explaining this the best I could. Maybe I failed to explain it correctly, I don't know, but I'm not going to explain it any further. I'm honestly not sure what your point is with this, but, like I said, I did the best I could to explain what it was like. I never, ever, ever said that women couldn't like cars and boats or that men couldn't like frilly dresses. But this goes way, way deeper than just being able to wear a dress. If you think that's what being a transsexual is, or that somehow just being able to do things or wear clothes that are traditionally assigned to women in this society would solve the problem or should solve the problem for a transsexual, then you really, really don't get it, and frankly, I'm too upset right now to explain further. In fact, I don't know that I even want to. I've said what I had to say.


I like Hula's idea about the whole thing: s/he seems to like aspects of both. And THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Hating parts of your own body is normal FOR ALL SEXES. Shit, I've hated my boobs since I was 13. I was gonna get a boob job until I realized that they're MY boobs and I wouldn't want some other boobs, so I kept them and I love them because they're mine and nobody else's.I never said anything was wrong with the way Hula felt. And no, hating parts of your body to the point that you want to have a sex change operation is not "normal" for both sexes. It's a very real and very painful condition, and one which you obviously do not understand. I will not sit here listen to you second guess the way I feel about things and try to minimize what I'm feeling or argue about what I should or shouldn't do with it. I'm done with this conversation. You can keep adding to your post if you want to, I'm not responding to it any more.

Cat Mom
01-21-2012, 11:08 PM
and one which you obviously do not understand
I understand it a lot better than you know.

This whole issue is something that nobody totally "understands." And obviously you don't, either. And that's okay, too.


I'm honestly not sure what your point is with this
My point is that sometimes I think you use gender stereotypes when it comes to females. You say you "feel" like you're a female, but your definition of "female" seems to be based on gender stereotypes. I'm not going to go into private PMs we've had in the past. I'm supportive of you, but I am not supportive of gender stereotypes.

I used to have REALLY short hair. We're talking buzz cut. One time, at the office, an older male attorney came up to me and said, "Your husband must like BOYS." Wtf.

I wasn't "offended" so much as, um, I dunno, amused? Look, we can't change the world, we can only be who we are, and fuck the world.

It just seems like feeling your sex is "probably" wrong vs. "I really really know it's wrong" are two separate things, you know? This is why I wondered if you've talked to a professional who specializes in these things.

I've seen statistics that said something about how the vast majority of cross-dressers are het males. But stereotypes say otherwise.

Maybe you should go on a vacation for a few weeks and BE an anonymous female? Live as one? See if it fits?

theruiner
01-21-2012, 11:24 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't think you understand. You have not demonstrated that you understand. And no, I absolutely do not support gender stereotypes in any way shape or form. But I do feel the way I feel. And if that's supporting gender stereotypes, then there are a HELL of a lot of transsexuals who feel the same, because I've met and talked with them and been on message boards and read books and blogs and websites and have been researching this for years and years and years, and I can tell you that the vast majority of the MTF transsexuals I've met and read about and seen and interacted with grew their hair out and acted feminine and liked feminine things (as well as a lot of masculine things, I'm sure, as most women and men don't fall strictly into either category, nor should they) and they were excited to wear women's clothes. And a lot of the FTM transsexuals wanted to have short hair and wear men's clothes and liked men's things and, I'm sure, some female things to. That doesn't mean they believe in gender stereotypes, that just means they felt the way they felt and liked what they liked, just like a lot of women and men in our society who didn't feel they were born into the wrong sex have hair and clothes and behavior and likes and dislikes that fall very much into what is traditionally considered masculine and feminine and then there are people who fall every where on the spectrum. I won't apologize for the way I feel, and I won't let someone tell me that the way I'm living my life is somehow wrong, or that because I would like to transition to the opposite sex and I would like to have long hair and wear dresses somehow means I'm fitting into "gender stereotypes." If I took hormones and had a sex change and kept my hair short, hated dresses and only wore men's clothes, would I then be acceptable to you?

I don't like being portrayed the way you're trying to portray me because you are, flat out, wrong. And I do not think you understand. What you've said during the course of this conversation makes me think you don't. Maybe I'm wrong. But it definitely seems like you're getting mad at me when maybe you should be getting mad at a LOT of people, like, most of society who oftentimes fall into their traditional gender roles and are ok with that. My whole thing has always been, if you feel more comfortable being in a "traditional" gender role, if you're a woman and you want to have long hair and wear dresses and your interests, hobbies, behavior, whatever, falls into what society terms the "female" category, then fine. I have no problem with that. I have no problem with guys who are the same way on the opposite side, and I have no problem with anyone who falls in between. I do have a problem with people that tell anyone they're wrong for how they feel or what they like or, in the case of transsexuals, that they're wrong for wanting to be in the typical societal gender role. If that's the way they feel and that's what they want, more power to them.

I don't know if that made any sense. Sorry if it didn't. I don't feel like going back to re-read that and edit like I normally would. So forgive me for any redundancies or typos or anything else.


Edit: As far as the way I feel, I never claimed to "know" it's wrong, the way a lot of transsexuals do. There are a lot of people like me, who have these feelings but haven't quite nailed down if we are, in fact, transsexuals or if it's something else and if we are, what we want to do about it. I can only tell you what I've already said. And I've always identified as 'transgender' for that very reason, because that label I know fits, since it's an umbrella term, but 'transsexual' may or may not at the end of the day. Hopefully some day I'll know for sure.

Cat Mom
01-21-2012, 11:27 PM
I am not "portraying" you in any way. I'm having a serious, intellectual discussion, here. When I talked about my not liking to talk about dresses or stereotypical "girl" stuff, I was talking about ME, not you. But you automatically thought I was discussing you. I'm just describing what it's like, for me, to be a female. You are a female, right? So, we're both females. So we can talk as females. And be different kinds of females. But you're having issues with that? Okay.

p.s. I'm not "mad" at all; no part of anything I've said in this entire thread was typed in anger, or anything even vaguely resembling anger. That's totally something coming from your end of the screen, not me. Truthfully, the only thing I've felt is bad for you because you seem to struggle so much with this, and you haven't gotten any professional help. It's obviously a big struggle for you, often. Big enough that maybe somebody could help you talk about it, who specializes in this.


News flash: some boys wear dresses and some girls have cocks. If you don't morally object to the idea of being transgender then I don't see why you're having such a problem understanding it.
Bravo to this. It seems like it shouldn't really MATTER.

theruiner
01-22-2012, 01:34 AM
This is the last part I'll address tonight, not out of anger at all, but just to clarify something.


There's a REASON why you have to go through YEARS of therapy before you can transition, surgically. A lot of it has to do with whether or not you aren't transferring or avoiding other issues.
I'm not trying to nitpick, but you actually don't. At least in the states, my understanding is you have to see a shrink for...I believe it's three months before you can start on hormones. Then you have to live for a year full time as the opposite sex. Then, as long as a psychologist and a psychiatrist sign off on it, you can have surgery. It can take as little as about a year and a half. Some people do take years, sure. Everyone's situation is different, but some people do go through the process pretty quickly.


Edit: It's been a long time since I've read the actual specifics though, so I might be a bit off on the details. Plus, I know the Harry Benjamin Standards are updated occasionally, so something might have changed in that time.

Again, though, I wasn't trying to nitpick, nor am I upset about that. I just wanted to clarify.

Elke
01-22-2012, 03:51 AM
First of all, theruiner, thank you for trying to explain what it's like for you. I've been reading a lot of testemonial type articles about this, but it's always streamlined to convey a point of view. And it can't be easy to try and explain something to someone else that's not entirely clear to yourself, so again (and very genuinly) thank you very much for making that effort.

As for the whole academic car crash with allegro, I think I get her point - though as usual, babe, you phrased it in the worst possible way :)
Personally, I think fewer people would struggle with being transgender or intersex if we weren't such an incredibly binary culture.
If I look at myself, for example, for as long as I can remember I've been queer. I never really had a word for it, so I usually referred to myself as not-straight or lesbian, even though neither are particularly correct. But I was raised by my parents in the most liberal, gender neutral way. I have a younger sister and a younger brother: we all played with Lego and Barbie, we all watched Pinocchio and Cinderella, we all dressed up as pirates and princesses. Our parents were never too bothered by that. My sister was always a girlier girl, but my brother (although very masculine in his physique) has a lot of traits that people associate with women.
I have the lowest of low libidos, bordering on asexual, and when I fall in love it can be a woman or a man but it's usually about brains, not beauty. I don't see mess, I have no patience for 'Venus talk' (you know: women talk in layers, mean one thing but say another, blah blah) and I'm pretty macho when it comes to dealing with other people (I'll offer to carry bags, open doors, make compliments etc...).
Even though I've always banged up against society's walls and restrictions, I've never felt bad or weirded out about myself where my gender or sexuality is concerned, and I'm convinced it's because of the incredible way my parents raised me.
And I can imagine that if I had been raised differently, I might actually be more torn up about my gender, because a large part of me acts and reacts in ways that society defines as typically male.

And I think that might be the point allegro was trying to make: if we as a society would not lay such incredible stereotypical expectations on people about their gender, then maybe being intersex or being genderqueer wouldn't be such a strange thing, and choice wouldn't be forced upon people. And I guess both allegro and I find that preferable, mostly because of who we are.

On the other hand, I'm sure there are people who's body is forcing a choice upon them. Where it's not so much about adhering to internalized societal expectations, but about chemicals and chromosomes. But again, that shouldn't be as difficult to communicate to others as it seems to be now.

I guess it's just sad to see someone struggle with something that really isn't so difficult to understand (not in terms of how it feels, obviously, but in terms of what it is and what needs to be done to help this person) because of retarded societal norms.

allegro, I've been sort of speaking for you, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Cat Mom
01-22-2012, 07:21 AM
No no, Elke, thank you, I appreciate it, you said exactly what I was thinking (but a lot better than I did or could).

Elke
01-22-2012, 11:27 AM
Or I had the benifit of hindsight in this discussion :) Glad I could clear that up a little, though. I do share your frustration, though. I just saw The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo and on the way out ran into some friends of mine who'd also just seen it. They felt Mara hadn't portrayed Salander's fierceness well enough, but chose to phrase it as 'She was too feminine'. And I thought: well, she's a woman, how else had you expected her to be?

icklekitty
01-22-2012, 12:12 PM
Do you specifically mean woman there and not female? (Just checking)

Elke
01-22-2012, 01:16 PM
Yeah, I meant woman. I mean, just for sheer physicality: if you're going to strip someone who's biologically female bare, you're going to see a woman. She's bound to be feminine just in her physicality. I don't know if that's making sense. I'm sure they meant feminine as in 'soft and vulnerable', but that's not what I first thought of :)

icklekitty
01-22-2012, 01:44 PM
The bare sex is female, and you can't have inherent femininity in a female, because femininity is tied to sexuality, not sex. You can have inherent femininity in a woman, though, because the social construct of woman (gender) is the sum of a trend in femininities. So indeed, as you said, you would expect a woman to be feminine, but you shouldn't expect a female to be feminine.

A woman is bound* to be feminine, but you can't strip female to get woman - it's the other way around. To say that stripping a female bare will result in seeing a woman is to presume that all females inherently possess a string of gendered traits, which I'm not sure I would agree with. I think females perhaps have a social predisposition to those traits, but that's an external coat, not something you find when you strip them to their core. The only thing you can be certain you're going to see when it comes to females is their XX chromosone pair and all the tangibly biological side-effects of that. Hence the distinction between transsexual and transgender.




*oh look at my clever literary use of the word bound /smug/

Elke
01-22-2012, 02:26 PM
That sounded way too clever for this time of night (yeah, it's already past my bedtime - how sad am I?) BUT I think I know what happened: in Dutch there's no different word for woman and (a) female. So I tend to use 'vrouw' (woman) for biological sex and 'vrouwelijk' (feminine) for anything that has to do with gender. I sometimes forget to correct that when I translate my thoughts to English. So what I meant is that when my friends called her too 'vrouwelijk', I automatically thougt 'Well, she's 'vrouw', isn't she?'
Does that clear it up?
[Also, I know it's incredibly biased to assume that a female body (bio-sex) has some kind of recognizable female traits, but sadly I can't help myself when it comes to that.]

I thought this (http://www.salon.com/2012/01/22/the_invention_of_the_heterosexual/singleton/) was rather appropriate given our discussion:


I have a number of friends who are negotiating the reverse of this, in that they for a long time identified as lesbians and have now started dating transmen and now have to negotiate the awkwardness of being in what ostensibly looks like a heterosexual relationship. I’ve been around several friends who, when they mention their boyfriend in a queer setting, reflexively say, “Oh, but he’s trans.”
And I think that really points as well to the fact that these are constructed categories. This is about your subjectivity, it’s about your allegiance, it’s about where your social networks are, it’s about the kinds of cultural priorities that you embrace and that you endorse. This is not just what gets you hard or what gets you wet. This is not just about what kinds of sex you have, or the congenital configurations of the people you have sex with. It’s very much about what cultures you participate in. What cultures you ally yourself with, you know, whose flag you fly.

icklekitty
01-22-2012, 02:52 PM
Oh! That's very interesting. I think it's the same in Greek. I had that 3 prong definition drilled into me from the start, so it's like the fundamental framework for all my studies.

I'm curious to look up the definitions in a bunch of languages now.

theruiner
01-22-2012, 07:25 PM
First of all, theruiner, thank you for trying to explain what it's like for you.No prob. And thank you for being so kind about it and coming in to clear things up. I appreciate it. I don't really want to continue talking about it myself, so I'm going to extract myself from the conversation. Not trying to stop it from happening or anything, I'm just taking myself out of it. But I did want to say a quick thanks. :)



You are a female, right?
I'm not upset by this comment or anything, and I don't mean for it to come off that way, but I just wanted to clarify that I don't consider myself female. I don't necessarily think I'm not, either. I just don't know at this point. Not a big deal, but I just wanted to clarify.



Truthfully, the only thing I've felt is bad for you because you seem to struggle so much with this, and you haven't gotten any professional help. It's obviously a big struggle for you, often. Big enough that maybe somebody could help you talk about it, who specializes in this.
Much appreciated. Thank you.

Cat Mom
01-22-2012, 10:09 PM
I'm not upset by this comment or anything, and I don't mean for it to come off that way, but I just wanted to clarify that I don't consider myself female. I don't necessarily think I'm not, either. I just don't know at this point.
And that's totally cool. You don't have to ever know, and you can be both or either or neither, and nobody in this thread will care or judge you. But do know that we care about you and we hope that you find a way to deal with your struggle and get professional help to get you through it?

I also want to take this opportunity to, again, publicly proclaim my love for Elke. I think we were separated at birth. (Even though my birth was way the fuck earlier during the time of the dinosaurs.) The childhood upbringing you described in your post was very similar to mine. Oh, and we were engaged several times.

Also, props to Icklekitty for such awesome posts in this and other similar gender threads. I'm relieved to be among such open-minded gender-neutral educated egalitarians.

Finally, my compliments to Hula for really bringing some great points of honesty and cool poignancy to this thread, much appreciated, much respected. You are awesome.

Edit: Jesus, I sound like I'm on Ecstacy. Wtf.

theruiner
01-22-2012, 11:16 PM
And that's totally cool. You don't have to ever know, and you can be both or either or neither, and nobody in this thread will care or judge you. But do know that we care about you and we hope that you find a way to deal with your struggle and get professional help to get you through it.Well, thank you. Yeah, a professional is the only way I'm going to be able to figure this out. And I do appreciate that it doesn't matter to anyone else, but it's really important to me to figure it out and figure out what I'm going to do about it. Sooner rather than later. But that requires insurance and money and I have neither at the moment, so it'll have to wait.

And for the record (and this is not directed at you, allegro, just in general), and not to dredge up anything from yesterday, but I absolutely, one-hundred percent agree that gender norms or rules are bullshit. Not that I care what people do, or how they want to be, but our society would be much better if we could just let everyone be who they are instead of who we want them to be. Whether or not that will ever happen, who knows. Probably not in my lifetime.

Hula
01-23-2012, 11:08 AM
Finally, my compliments to Hula for really bringing some great points of honesty and cool poignancy to this thread, much appreciated, much respected. You are awesome.

Fuelled by rage with society, fuck yeah!

Firstly I'm just going to say that I've been away for the weekend so I'm really tired and might not be as eloquent as this thread deserves. I was up until almost 2 last night explaining my whole situation with that friend I mentioned here a couple posts ago and I left that particular conversation mentally exhausted and emotionally drained. Maybe it's worth it; I think he understands now. I hope so, at least.

Allegro: I do agree with a lot of your views on gender as a social construct. It's something that has fascinated me since I first started reading about women in literature (both as authors and characters) and I feel like the world is far from how I'd like it to be in that respect.

On Saturday I saw a burlesque show in which one of my favourite webcomic authors, who is a transman, performed in drag doing strip tease. The whole point of his skit was to display awkward sensuality and he succeeded there—what really got me thinking, though, was that this man could so comfortable don women's clothing and perform in such a (humorously) coquettish, feminine manner and look at once sensual and very much masculine. I'm not going to make assumptions about his gender identity in daily life as to be honest I don't know a whole lot about him outside of his webcomic and his transition, but I was blown away that a person who probably suffered terrible gender dysphoria at some point in his life could go up on stage and dress up in such a way—stripping, of all things—without feeling uncomfortable.

Oddly, the performance didn't make me feel more content with the idea of adopting a masculine persona whilst still presenting as a female physically... If anything, it made me feel worse because I was envious of what he had. This is the first time I've felt that way about a transman; usually I catch myself trying to see the physical characteristics in them that might set them out as trans—the narrow shoulders, the wide hips, the soft jawline. He had none of these things and he was a very real image of what I could be, right down to the fact that he could dress up in drag so freely and easily without falling into dysphoria.

Here's where I think I disagree with some of what allegro said:

I don't feel like my gender dysphoria is entirely a gender thing, and to be honest I've never liked the DSM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disord ers) definition of gender identity disorder as a mental illness wherein one's gender identity doesn't match up with their physical sex. I don't know nearly enough about psychology or biology to be able to weigh in on what it is exactly that brings about transgenderism, but from my experience I grew up to be socialised as a girl (for the most—my mum's always been good when it comes to gender neutrality and she makes a point of buying my niece dinosaurs and cars for her birthday as those are what she actually LIKES, not what society says she's supposed to play with) and yet I identify with men more than I do women. I don't know if that's because I don't like women as society has created them to be; I don't know if it's because I don't act or talk or think like the stereotypical women. What I do know is that the gender binary in society only upsets me on a philosophical level; I get annoyed when people tell me to 'man up' not because it's hurtful when you take my situation into consideration, but because I consider it to be sexist. Likewise I silently seethe at work when mothers tell their sons to 'put that back, it's a girl's toy' not because I consider myself to be a male who likes feminine things, but because it sickens me that mothers would actually shape their children's minds in such an archaic way.

I feel like it's not my gender and my physical sex that don't match up; it's more like the me running around in my head is a guy who looks exactly like I do on the outside, only without the breasts or vagina and with a voice just a tiny bit deeper. I suppose I relate to what theruiner said about being a woman for years and then waking up as a man (except in reverse, obviously), except it's only when I'm confronted with the image of myself or with my naked body in the flesh that I stop being the man that I grew up to be and become the woman I feel I was never supposed to be. When I look in the mirror, I'm not saddened by what I see because it's not what I want to see... I look in the mirror and it's wrong, because those breasts don't belong to me and when the hell did I get so short, anyway? Who the hell am I even looking at?

I've tried being a tomboy. I've tried being a boi (in the sense that I identified as male but had no intention of medically transitioning). I've tried being a regular ol' cis girl who plays Xbox and watches extreme sports and prefers the company of her lad friends over that of other girls, but none of these things have worked for me in the long run because they don't address the real issue. My body sickens me. It's not that I want a penis instead; it's that what I have between my legs makes me feel physically ill to the point that I can't orgasm if I'm not using all my energy to keep from thinking about my body. I think sometimes that I'd be happy if I had male genitalia but while I appreciate penises from an aesthetic (and erotic) point of view, I feel like I'd be more comfortable being flat and smooth like a Barbie doll. I don't think that's a societal thing—I never went through the whole drama of being conditioned to think that sex is dirty and that masturbation is bad. If anything, I've always considered myself a sensual person right up until the point that my knickers/boxers come off and suddenly I'm faced with what I really am. I've held off going to a gender therapist because I don't honestly know if I could go on hormone therapy and grow facial hair and get a deeper voice only for my genitalia to remain exactly the same. The thought of other transmen being like this doesn't gross me out, but when I picture it for myself it repulses me.

Do I think I'd be the way I am if humans were all socially identical and just had different junk under our unisex clothes? Probably not, but then I think society as a whole would question why some humans have innies and others have outies. Sex would likely still set us apart; the very act of penetrative sex is, in and of itself, a weighted one because there's something so forceful about penetration and something so vulnerable about opening yourself up to that (whether as a female or a bottoming male or somebody giving a blowjob). I don't even know if a completely genderless society could function, even if it weren't for the physical disparities (strength, height and so on) that exist between males and females.

Maybe there is something in my brain that makes me different than other people born female. It would make sense of the fact that I've been comporting myself like 'one of the guys' for the past year and a half ever since coming out to someone for the first time, and yet I still don't feel at home in my body. It would make sense of the fact that I've been flipping the bird at 'gender' quite happily, that I've been told by queers and straight people who admitted to knowing nothing about the LGBT community alike that I seem 'cool' and 'really comfortable in my own skin', and yet I go to sleep almost every night feeling incomplete—feeling like a piece of broken machinery.

I didn't intend for this to turn into such a long, rambling lecture in self-pity—talking to my friend so frankly last night reopened the floodgates on things that I've tried to bottle up for entirely too long. I suppose if I had to summarise, I'd say this: I don't think I'm uncomfortable with my gender, because my gender is just that—mine, regardless of whether it's perceived as male or female or neither or both. If the roots of my transgenderism lay in the fact that I feel uncomfortable being forced into the 'girly' side of the gender binary, my problems would have ceased to exist the moment I cut all my hair off and started wearing boyish clothes only to discover that nobody was trying to get me to be a girly girl again.

Elke
01-23-2012, 02:31 PM
Wow, that was quite a read Hula. Thanks for that.
One thing you said struck me though: Do I think I'd be the way I am if humans were all socially identical and just had different junk under our unisex clothes? Probably not, but then I think society as a whole would question why some humans have innies and others have outies.

I think of a gender neutral world as the exact opposite of that: every single human being completely uniquely themselves however they want to be, without being reduced to one category. The junk is significant, as you yourself indicate so well, and it should be: every part of your body should be significant, and everything you express through it, every possibiliy it opens to you and every way it limits you. What we do right now, to me, is hiding bodies and their symbolic encriptions under masks and layers of clothing, or sculpt them into something they're not. We hide them all the time.
But that's a different discussion :)

Also allegro: right back atcha babe. (I still think our last break-up was a mistake, but who knows...)

Hula
01-23-2012, 02:54 PM
That sounds like a great ideal—the only problem is I think it's human nature (hell, maybe just animal nature) to group together with those who are most like us—you'd probably still get clumps of people identifying with each other more than others and you'd be back to square one. I feel like the queer movement as it stands right now is trying to push society toward what you describe, though. Words like 'gay' and 'straight' are becoming too constrictive for some people and while identities like 'pansexual' are still trapping us into using labels which define us in black or white (instead of just being and not feeling the need to explain or justify it), they're good in the sense that they do acknowledge and include gender neutrality.

I've always liked 'queer' as a sexual orientation / gender identity. It's everything and nothing. I think that's nice.

sheepdean
01-30-2012, 05:44 PM
Dropping in because this came up on my news feed, and it's something worth noting for y'all if you fly in Canada: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2007-82/FullText.html

5.2 (1) An air carrier shall not transport a passenger if

(c) the passenger does not appear to be of the gender indicated on the identification he or she presents;

theruiner
01-30-2012, 07:56 PM
I first read that as "doesn't present as the gender they appear to be" or something, then re-read it and realized I misunderstood it. From a practical standpoint, for transsexuals who decide to transition, it probably won't be much of an issue. When people transition and start living in their preferred gender role full time, one of the first things they do is change their I.D. from their birth gender to their "new" one. It's relatively easy (though I don't know how difficult changing that over might be internationally).

Now, that's just from a practical standpoint, speaking specifically for that situation. From a philosophical standpoint, arbitrary gender rules are bullshit. Everyone should be able to dress however they want, and who is anyone else to tell them "you can't dress that way" or "that's only for one gender and not the other." So a guy shows up in a dress and his I.D. doesn't say female so now they're going to play fashion police and say no, you can't get on, because only women are allowed to wear dresses? Says fucking who? I understand the need for security, and really, this is a huge societal problem, not specific to this law, but it's still crap.

sheepdean
01-30-2012, 07:59 PM
Indeed, I was aware body scanners could "out" people (yay invasive technology...), but I didn't know such actions would kick someone off the flight. And hell, that can cover andro, genderqueer, TV and a hell of a lot of other people based on the various bigotry of the guard interpreting policy.

icklekitty
02-06-2012, 11:23 PM
A couple of pics from the Erotic Heritage Museum in Las Vegas which might interest you:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/silktwisteddagger/6830792931/in/set-72157629203017295

http://www.flickr.com/photos/silktwisteddagger/6830793463/in/set-72157629203017295

sick among the pure
02-06-2012, 11:34 PM
A couple of pics from the Erotic Heritage Museum in Las Vegas which might interest you:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/silktwisteddagger/6830792931/in/set-72157629203017295

http://www.flickr.com/photos/silktwisteddagger/6830793463/in/set-72157629203017295

I love Buck Angel. He's super fucking nice, I interviewed him via e-mail a few semesters back for a paper I did, and we've kept in contact since.

sick among the pure
02-06-2012, 11:36 PM
When people transition and start living in their preferred gender role full time, one of the first things they do is change their I.D. from their birth gender to their "new" one. It's relatively easy (though I don't know how difficult changing that over might be internationally).

Don't quote me on this, because I haven't looked into it myself, but my ex's partner is FtM as well, and she told me that when she was looking into things for him, she found out that in NY state, in order to get the gender marker changed on your license, you have to have undergone surgery.

Hula
02-07-2012, 04:52 AM
Don't quote me on this, because I haven't looked into it myself, but my ex's partner is FtM as well, and she told me that when she was looking into things for him, she found out that in NY state, in order to get the gender marker changed on your license, you have to have undergone surgery.

It varies from place to place. In Sweden, you have to undergo sterilisation to have the marker changed. In some places it's enough to have been in gender therapy; in others you have to have undergone varying levels of surgery (top, bottom or, in places, both). I don't think it's even possible to do it in Ireland—and they're rolling out legislation that'll have us all jumping through hoops, anyway. Then there's all the ridiculous legislation about when you're allowed to actually undergo hormone therapy—some countries want you to officially live X amount of time as your preferred gender before they'll ever let you begin to medically transition. Bull. Shit.

It...kind of sucks to have to go through surgery to be considered 'genuinely' transgender. What about all the people who are trans but perfectly happy with their junk? It's appalling that people should be forced to undergo terrifying and expensive procedures in order to have one tiny thing altered on their identification that could ultimately affect whether they'll ever be considered employable. There might be all sorts of anti-discrimination legislation out there, but that doesn't mean a whole lot in the real world. Then there's the whole issue of if you're trying to live as stealth—maybe you just don't want people to know you were ever legally any other gender than the one by which you present.

Ugh. It's like I skipped past all the gay-bashing growing up so now the world's making it up to me and all the other trans folk by being twice as brutal.

sick among the pure
02-07-2012, 01:23 PM
Then there's all the ridiculous legislation about when you're allowed to actually undergo hormone therapy—some countries want you to officially live X amount of time as your preferred gender before they'll ever let you begin to medically transition. Bull. Shit.

That's where I think the rules are truly moronic. How are you supposed to live any amount of time passing if you're unable to take hormones? I know some people are androgynous enough that the right hair cut, clothes, and way of acting can be enough. But for me, and I'm sure countless others, it's impossible to pass without some sort of medical help. Hell, I've been lucky enough to start on testosterone almost a full month ago, but it'll be a while before it helps get me to a "passable as male" state because of my voice and feminine facial structure. Once my voice lowers, and I finally get some stubble going, then I face my biggest obstacle. Pun kinda intended. I'm kinda stuck, because doctor's won't remove my chest without living a year as a passable male, but I can't pass as a male with my E cups. I could probably get a reduction for other medical reasons, then compress those enough to be ok, but that means two surgeries, twice the cost, twice the healing time, and twice the scar tissue.
I have a compression top, which helps, but I still have a noticeably female chest. I've even tried using an ace bandage over my compression top, then a tank top over that to help all the contours blend together, all of that under a loose t-shirt, and then a hoodie over top, and I look halfway between a chick with a deformed chest, and a dude that's only really fat around his abdomen. :|
I've been exercising, they still won't shrink down any. </ihatemybodyrant>

Can someone please explain why I have to be able to pass for X amount of time BEFORE I CAN GET SOMETHING TO HELP ME PASS?

icklekitty
02-07-2012, 01:43 PM
I think they want to try to eliminate those people for whom this isn't really a transgender problem and to be sure that the surgery etc isn't going to get reversed later. But you're right, the practice doesn't match the intent and they need to find a better system to work out those things.

Hula
02-07-2012, 05:02 PM
I've had moments where it's occurred to me that it's really a good thing they don't just hand out hormones to anybody who presents with transgender tendencies—I mean holy shit, I've flip-flopped on this more often than I care to admit... But on the flip side, the lengths we have to go to in order to prove that we're serious about this are incredibly daunting. They have to be 100% sure we're 100% sure, but when it seems in the current climate as though you'll get rejected for treatment if you don't present as the archetype of a straight manly man or womanly woman, quite often it feels as though it's not worth the effort. I daren't even go to a gender therapist because I'm worried I'll have the door slammed in my face the second I stroll in there with my bootcut jeans and earrings. You'd be amazed how many testimonials there are out there of transguys essentially lying about their history and their current lives out of fear that they won't seem trans enough.

brightshadow
02-10-2012, 04:39 PM
So I'm gonna use this thread to vent a little bit and I hope I don't offend anyone. My roommate and good friend of 8 years recently came out to me as FTM transsexual. He is going to start taking testosterone soon and would like everyone to start calling him by a new name in keeping with his different gender. I care deeply about my friend. He's had a hard row to hoe and I hope this change will give him some of the peace he needs. However I am having a really hard time remembering to refer to him as "he" rather than "she" in conversations and to use his new name rather than the one I have known him by for the last 8 years. I slip up every now and then and I tell him I'm sorry but I still know it hurts his feelings. I'm not trying to be mean but 8 years is a long time and my memory isn't that great to start with...

theruiner
02-10-2012, 06:59 PM
Don't beat yourself up over it. That's a very ingrained thing in your mind, and I'm sure it's difficult for people to try to use the opposite pronouns when they've been using the other ones for years. The important thing is that you're trying, and it sounds like you're a really supportive friend. One of the things I always hear from people who have transitioned is, "Get ready to lose almost everyone you care about." There's a big fear with a lot of people that their friends and family will abandon them, and a lot of times that does happen. So it's great that you're trying to be a supportive friend. You'll get the pronoun thing down, it'll just take a little time.

brightshadow
02-13-2012, 04:13 AM
Don't beat yourself up over it. That's a very ingrained thing in your mind, and I'm sure it's difficult for people to try to use the opposite pronouns when they've been using the other ones for years. The important thing is that you're trying, and it sounds like you're a really supportive friend. One of the things I always hear from people who have transitioned is, "Get ready to lose almost everyone you care about." There's a big fear with a lot of people that their friends and family will abandon them, and a lot of times that does happen. So it's great that you're trying to be a supportive friend. You'll get the pronoun thing down, it'll just take a little time.

Thanks. I'm getting better about it and he's actually one of the lucky ones whose parents haven't disowned him and are pretty supportive, at least financially.

halloween
02-13-2012, 04:42 PM
So I'm gonna use this thread to vent a little bit and I hope I don't offend anyone. My roommate and good friend of 8 years recently came out to me as FTM transsexual. He is going to start taking testosterone soon and would like everyone to start calling him by a new name in keeping with his different gender. I care deeply about my friend. He's had a hard row to hoe and I hope this change will give him some of the peace he needs. However I am having a really hard time remembering to refer to him as "he" rather than "she" in conversations and to use his new name rather than the one I have known him by for the last 8 years. I slip up every now and then and I tell him I'm sorry but I still know it hurts his feelings. I'm not trying to be mean but 8 years is a long time and my memory isn't that great to start with...
There was quite a few people who i go to school with, who all changed pronouns around the same time, it was really rough remembering to switch. Thankfully my friends would correct me politely without getting insulted...

sick among the pure
02-18-2012, 01:42 PM
I came out to my mom last night. I think she took it ok, she was tired and said we'd talk about it more today. All I really got out of her is that she doesn't understand but she loves me, which is much better than I thought, but I also didn't get to mentioning starting T, or wanting to get my boobs chopped off asap. I feel like the physical transition will be the worst part for her.

Hula
02-18-2012, 02:16 PM
I came out to my mom last night. I think she took it ok, she was tired and said we'd talk about it more today. All I really got out of her is that she doesn't understand but she loves me, which is much better than I thought, but I also didn't get to mentioning starting T, or wanting to get my boobs chopped off asap. I feel like the physical transition will be the worst part for her.

One thing I figured out when I came out to my mum is that it's important to lay out (at some point—take it as slowly as you think you need to, for her sake) exactly what being trans will actually mean for you in the long run. I told my mum I'm trans, and from the stuff she spouted about hating ~labels~ and thinking it's damaging to ~conform to gender roles~ I got the impression she didn't understand that I actually want a male body. It's a lot easier to discuss gender with her now in general, so that's the good that came of opening up about it in the first place, but I know that if/when I decide to medically transition, I'll probably have to sit her down and talk to her about it again. In-depth, this time.

Moral of the story: it might feel like you've cleared the air, but just make sure you do tell her what transitioning will ultimately consist of so that she can't delude herself into thinking this issue is less life-changing than it actually is.

sick among the pure
02-18-2012, 05:39 PM
One thing I figured out when I came out to my mum is that it's important to lay out (at some point—take it as slowly as you think you need to, for her sake) exactly what being trans will actually mean for you in the long run. I told my mum I'm trans, and from the stuff she spouted about hating ~labels~ and thinking it's damaging to ~conform to gender roles~ I got the impression she didn't understand that I actually want a male body. It's a lot easier to discuss gender with her now in general, so that's the good that came of opening up about it in the first place, but I know that if/when I decide to medically transition, I'll probably have to sit her down and talk to her about it again. In-depth, this time.

Moral of the story: it might feel like you've cleared the air, but just make sure you do tell her what transitioning will ultimately consist of so that she can't delude herself into thinking this issue is less life-changing than it actually is.

I plan on it, once we get a chance to continue the conversation. Just saying that since we hadn't gotten to that yet, so I'm not out of the woods.

sick among the pure
03-10-2012, 11:45 PM
I have an assignment coming up in a few weeks where I have to be a fake gallery curator. I have to put together a group of images that I would put in this fake gallery. Photography, painting, sculpture, any medium I want, as long as it all goes with a central theme.

My theme is going to be trans-related in some way. Haven't pin-pointed it in a statement yet. But basically trans struggles, both with rights, and with who we are, etc.

So, the point of me bringing this up, I'd like some input. Does anyone here have a piece or series of work related to transpeople that you think I should look into including? Any visual medium, including short video clips (which could be projected and looped on a wall in a gallery setting).

icklekitty
03-11-2012, 06:09 AM
Ohh, crap. Magtig was telling me about a trans artist he was working with. She works with video, but I can't remember her fucking name.

Your project sounds fun. I had to do something similar for my curation course, but a shortlist of pieces had been predetermined.

Magtig
03-11-2012, 01:14 PM
Ohh, crap. Magtig was telling me about a trans artist he was working with. She works with video, but I can't remember her fucking name.

Your project sounds fun. I had to do something similar for my curation course, but a shortlist of pieces had been predetermined.

That would be Zackary Drucker (http://zackarydrucker.com). She's kinda brilliant, kinda funny, and totally hot.

theruiner
03-20-2012, 01:25 AM
Well, I went a few weeks there where the feelings seemed to be gone. Which is strange, but it's happened before. And now it's coming back with a vengeance. Ugh.

I tried finding free counseling in Phoenix (I am sans insurance and money at the moment) but no such luck.

Hula
03-22-2012, 12:04 PM
Ever since I shaved my head for charity I've been veering more toward genderqueer expression (rather than the mixture of very masculine on days when I'm with people I can be open with and very feminine with everyone else). Oddly, it just makes me want to transition ever more strongly. I've been doing the whole staring-at-pictures-of-male-models-until-I-make-myself-sick thing again...

It's funny how we can sort of forget about it for a while only for it to come back and practically consume every day of our lives.

theruiner
03-23-2012, 04:04 AM
I've been doing the whole staring-at-pictures-of-male-models-until-I-make-myself-sick thing again...THIS. A thousand times this. So unbelievably painful.

sick among the pure
03-23-2012, 04:11 PM
I shaved for the first time the other day. Partially because I'm only growing a neck beard and mustache, partly because I CAN. It made me squee, and now I have soft stubble from under my chin down my neck.

theruiner
03-25-2012, 04:30 AM
Welcome to the rabbit hole.

theruiner
04-02-2012, 10:26 PM
Awesome! Some good news! (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2012/04/trump-wont-bar-transsexual-beauty-queen-from-shot-at-miss-universe-canada-title/?fb_ref=abc-fb-recs)

theruiner
04-14-2012, 04:36 AM
Wow, I can't believe I hadn't heard of this yet.

So...a new televised, um...comedy? Not sure. Anyway, a new show about a transsexual woman who is an assassin. This sounds, um...hmmm. I can't really make heads or tails of this. Here, reading stuff!

(http://www.avclub.com/articles/chloe-sevigny-will-play-a-transgender-assassin,57237/)
Edit: Why did I feel the need to read the comments under the article? Bad idea.

Hula
04-14-2012, 04:56 AM
I'm incredibly wary about this. Maybe my opinion's just unfairly coloured because the language in the article was a little problematic :|

If they write it carefully, then I guess this could be okay. I just don't know if I'm cool with any show that could potentially fetishise somebody's trans status. The fact that she finds out she fathered kids ~when she was a man~ (to use their phrasing) makes me think they'll be playing the comedic angle a little too hard at trans people's detriment.

I was going to ask why they never get actual transwomen to play these roles but then I realised there probably isn't a trans actor out there who wouldn't have a problem acting in something like this.

theruiner
04-14-2012, 05:09 AM
Yeah, I don't have much faith in it. I think there's a really good chance (read: almost guaranteed) that this will not turn out well.

I'm glad it's on Showtime, though. That means less people will see it and I won't run into too many ignorant/disparaging comments/conversations (with people who don't know about me; my friends who know are entirely supportive and pretty liberal, anyway). I've been fortunate enough not to run into too many of those awkward conversations in my life (and the few I've had weren't much fun).

Elke
04-14-2012, 06:23 AM
I don't know, the credentials don't seem too bad: Paul Abbott's approach is generally thoughtful even though the result is often shocking (and intended to be). I thought this (http://skyatlantic.sky.com/hit-and-miss-more-casting-news) seemed a fairly interesting premise.

Ultimately, and I'm coming at this from a completely different angle, visibility is important. Even if it's portraying stuff badly. Being queer myself, I've seen an increase of bisexual female characters in mainstream media and most of them were evil or slutty or troubled, or a combination of those. But amongst that horrible mess are The L-Word's Alice and Bones' Angela. Increased visibility will conform stereotypes, but it will also allow for better and more truthful characters to emerge. Or at least that's what I personally believe.

On a completely unrelated note, Ruiner: I always read comments, get pissed off and then have to shut off my computer to keep from posting lengthy pissy rants. Of course, your lengthy pissy rants would be awesome, so maybe you should just try it :P

theruiner
04-14-2012, 06:50 AM
I don't know, the credentials don't seem too bad: Paul Abbott's approach is generally thoughtful even though the result is often shocking (and intended to be). I thought this (http://skyatlantic.sky.com/hit-and-miss-more-casting-news) seemed a fairly interesting premise.Well, that does make me feel a bit better. I wasn't familiar with him. I'm glad to hear that he knows what he's doing and is usually thoughtful about these things. I know it seems cynical of me, but I just feel like a lot of people still don't understand trans issues. And not just that they don't understand it, but that they still look at us as freaks and the like. So it wouldn't shock me to have some pretty blatant stereotyping and/or making fun going on.


Ultimately, and I'm coming at this from a completely different angle, visibility is important. Even if it's portraying stuff badly. Being queer myself, I've seen an increase of bisexual female characters in mainstream media and most of them were evil or slutty or troubled, or a combination of those. But amongst that horrible mess are The L-Word's Alice and Bones' Angela. Increased visibility will conform stereotypes, but it will also allow for better and more truthful characters to emerge. Or at least that's what I personally believe.That's a really good point. I still wouldn't be crazy to see some negativity, but if it leads to a more positive, enlightened general view somewhere down the line then that would be great.

On a side note, speaking of TV shows, Six Feet Under I think did an amazing job at presenting homosexuality and bisexuality in a really positive way. One of the many, many reasons why it's my second favorite show ever.


On a completely unrelated note, Ruiner: I always read comments, get pissed off and then have to shut off my computer to keep from posting lengthy pissy rants.I actually really need to do that, honestly. I feel stupid getting into a debate with some idiot over the internet, but it's really hard to walk away from certain subjects (transphobia and homophobia being two subjects that I have a hard time not calling people out for).


Of course, your lengthy pissy rants would be awesome, so maybe you should just try it :PE.A.R.M.A.S. ;)

Elke
04-14-2012, 07:08 AM
:D

I should probably get into 6 Feet Under, I keep hearing good things about it.
But yeah, I think it's about allowing things to progress - but it's easy for me to say, because it's not me being misrepresented, I suppose.

theruiner
04-24-2012, 11:19 PM
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission rules that transgendered people are protected from employer discrimination. (http://www.modbee.com/2012/04/24/2172142/govt-says-transgender-people-protected.html)

About fucking time.

theruiner
04-26-2012, 07:04 AM
Oh, Christ. Bill O'Reilly is apparently upset that a transgender teen was portrayed on Glee. (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-04-20/news/31375885_1_transgender-glee-fox-news)

I'm about to go to bed, but when I have time later, I'll have to try and track down the video and see everything in context before I can make a final judgment on this. But it's Bill O'Reilly, so I highly, highly doubt he was taken out of context.

OH MY GOD, SOMEONE BREAKING ARBITRARY GENDER RULES THAT DON'T MEAN A GOD DAMN THING. What's next? Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

richardp
05-08-2012, 11:18 PM
Tom Gabel from Against Me! came out as a Transgender today and announced plans to change his name to Laura and go through a full transition.

Good for him! I think it's pretty fucking awesome that he's doing this. He's apparently been confused with it for years, and even references it in some of their songs. It takes guts to do this in the modern punk community where so many of the fans can be such single minded tools.

theruiner
05-09-2012, 02:59 AM
Thanks for sharing that! That is awesome.

I'm not a big Against Me! fan (though, to be fair, I haven't heard much of their music), but the article I read mentioned the song "The Ocean" as hinting pretty heavily at her gender issues. (http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/3530822107858671780/) I can say those lyrics really hit home for me (maybe not so much the marriage and children part, but thinking about what your life would have been like, and that incredible longing...that hits home. A lot.)

Hula
05-09-2012, 06:07 AM
Thanks for sharing that! That is awesome.

I'm not a big Against Me! fan (though, to be fair, I haven't heard much of their music), but the article I read mentioned the song "The Ocean" as hinting pretty heavily at her gender issues. (http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/3530822107858671780/) I can say those lyrics really hit home for me (maybe not so much the marriage and children part, but thinking about what your life would have been like, and that incredible longing...that hits home. A lot.)

I just looked up her Wikipedia page and it makes me SO FREAKING HAPPY to see female pronouns all over the place there. Most people who don't come across trans stuff in day-to-day life seem to think there's a point where you stop being your birth-assigned gender and become your real one; I was expecting to go there and see male pronouns up until the part about her being transgender. I've read far too many articles where it's like 'He was the sort of boy who liked Barbie dolls, then he realised he was a she'. I know it's probably not intentionally meant to be offensive, but it's belittling whether it's intentional or not.

Anyway, I'm happy for her. This is a huge thing to announce and an even huger decision to come to, so I'm really glad she's found her path.

icklekitty
05-09-2012, 07:02 AM
The Rolling Stone article did that too. I was really happy to see that!

Hula
05-09-2012, 06:04 PM
Coincidentally (or not) Kotaku posted an article (http://kotaku.com/5909038/a-transgender-transition-inside-ea-sports-will-everyone-stare-at-me) about a transwoman coming out at EA.

Don't read the comments. I made the mistake of doing so and witnessed more than a few instances of cissexism, transmisogyny and general assholery. Keep it classy, people.

theruiner
05-09-2012, 06:14 PM
I always try to avoid comments sections in those articles like the plague for that very reason. I actually saw a comment the other day under an article about the Against Me! singer where someone said something along the lines of, "transsexuals need to have the sense BEATEN into them" (the capitalization was theirs). Horrifying.

That being said, I read the comments under the Rolling Stone article about said person and they were almost universally positive (at least the couple of pages I bothered to read). So that was refreshing.

Hula
05-09-2012, 06:34 PM
I catch myself wondering sometimes if these people would be so vocal in their bigotry if they weren't hidden by the veil of anonymity that the internet provides. I know that here at least, homophobic comments aren't generally thrown around 'openly'—in my town they'll be said in a small group of friends where nobody is known to be gay, but within the group there's a very clear sense that what they're saying isn't cool and wouldn't be 'allowed' if somebody gay were there. They seem to conveniently forget that if the bigo-tree falls in the woods and no gay people are there to be offended by it, it's still offensive as fuck.

Well, I catch myself wondering as much and then I realise that I don't really want to know the answer. Any reality where people can be unashamedly open about their prejudice in front of the object of their bigotry is a reality I don't want to be a part of.

theruiner
05-10-2012, 12:02 AM
To counter some of the negative reactions people have had to this news, check out the bottom of this article (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1684798/against-me-tom-gabel-transgender.jhtml), where they mention how many other bands/celebrities have come out in support of Laura.

My favorite, from the singer of The Gaslight Anthem:


So Tom's gonna be Laura now... and in 2012 I still find people on the internet commenting on another person's life how they insult and condemn a person for his choices..

How about the people who go through this and never find peace and end up committing suicide? Would you rather that? Or maybe he could become a raging drug addict and ruin his life and family? Would you rather that? Or maybe we could have rules from a dictator where everyone gets killed for anything they believe against the government, oh wait, that doesn't work ... How about you leave the guy alone. How about you let another human being make a decision about their lives without your snide prejudices and bigotry? This is one of the hardest decisions a person can make ... Whether you agree or don't, it's not your life. It's not your family. It's not your band, it's theirs.
Awesome.

richardp
05-10-2012, 12:24 AM
Fuck yeah. I've personally yet to see any negative remarks about it, but I know they're out there. The fact that I haven't seen any, though, shows me that there is far more support than there is backlash. As it should be. Any fan of the band out there who's got anything negative to say, obviously isn't a fan. They're just fucking assholes. Whenever the first Against Me show happens this summer, after the announcement, man I can only imagine how special the crowd support is going to feel to her. It's going to be huge.

icklekitty
05-10-2012, 02:51 AM
I know that here at least, homophobic comments aren't generally thrown around 'openly'

I was thinking about that earlier in light of the Obama story. How many homophobic people are on ETS and (presumably) don't pipe up because the majority voice goes the other way?

theruiner
05-10-2012, 04:32 AM
I don't think I've ever done anything that demonstrated the bravery of Tom Gabel.

Oh, man. Does this mean I have to like Mike Shinoda now?

Hula
05-10-2012, 04:53 AM
Argentina just passed a law (http://www.firstpost.com/fwire/argentina-makes-sex-change-surgery-a-legal-right-304725.html) that makes medical transition a legal right—as well as making it possible for people to legally change their name and gender identification on their ID without having to have surgery or go on hormones.

Can I just say I want to live there?

Elke
05-10-2012, 11:35 AM
Oh, man. Does this mean I have to like Mike Shinoda now?

Yes, you do. I'm sure you'll be awesome at it, too.

Dra508
05-10-2012, 12:10 PM
I just looked up her Wikipedia page and it makes me SO FREAKING HAPPY to see female pronouns all over the place there. Most people who don't come across trans stuff in day-to-day life seem to think there's a point where you stop being your birth-assigned gender and become your real one; I was expecting to go there and see male pronouns up until the part about her being transgender. I've read far too many articles where it's like 'He was the sort of boy who liked Barbie dolls, then he realised he was a she'. I know it's probably not intentionally meant to be offensive, but it's belittling whether it's intentional or not.

Anyway, I'm happy for her. This is a huge thing to announce and an even huger decision to come to, so I'm really glad she's found her path.
Honestly, I don't think people who aren't exposed to "trans stuff" recognize the importance of the pronoun. Reading the comments starting with RichardP - he wrote HE through his whole post, where you went straight to HER. I literally read the fifth word in your post, saw the SHE, and said to myself "hey - look at that, Hula is pronoun conscious, that's interesting" and of course that WAS the context of your sentence. I just think we (I include myself totally) aren't aware of it's importance to the person or community. They say awareness is the first step to tolerance so thank you.

richardp
05-10-2012, 12:40 PM
You know I wasn't trying to be offensive, right? But you're right. I've got plenty of gay friends but have never known, personally, a transgender. I wasn't fully aware until my girlfriend pointed out that I should have been typing she instead of he in my first post.

Dra508
05-10-2012, 01:32 PM
You know I wasn't trying to be offensive, right? But you're right. I've got plenty of gay friends but have never known, personally, a transgender. I wasn't fully aware until my girlfriend pointed out that I should have been typing she instead of he in my first post.Yes, of course I know you weren't being offensive which further proves the point right? We don't realize the importance of the pronoun.

Hula
05-10-2012, 01:51 PM
You know I wasn't trying to be offensive, right? But you're right. I've got plenty of gay friends but have never known, personally, a transgender. I wasn't fully aware until my girlfriend pointed out that I should have been typing she instead of he in my first post.

I didn't think you were, don't worry! It did twig something with me when I first read it but almost immediately I remembered not everybody automatically knows the correct protocol about pronouns. Related to that (and to Dra508's comment), it's only really when I notice misgendering in news articles and whatnot that it bothers me because I always feel like journalists should know better. I know journalists are only human and we all make mistakes... I mean, back when I was still going to a trans group I slipped up and referred to a pre-op transwoman in an Asian movie as 'he' and even though I corrected myself right away, I felt sick—and this was after I'd spent a lot of time reading about trans folk. It's just that there's this naive part of me that always hopes the media will be objective, or at least if they choose to cover stories like this, that they'll be sensitive. A rough 6 times out of 10 I'm disappointed, so those 4 times I'm always extra pleased when people go out of their way to use the correct terminology.

I find far too often that journalists adopt this sensationalist tone about transgender people (transwomen, especially) where they're treated like a carnival attraction or something. There was an article a little while back about a little girl who was trans and they kept referring to her as a 'he' whenever they were highlighting the fact that she wasn't born female. It skeeved me out because other than that, the article was presented in a very open-minded way and it seemed like such a glaring mistake/insult when taken in context. There's a difference between a slip of the tongue when it comes to pronouns (or just not understanding how pronouns work in general) and making a point of highlighting the he/she change.

In short: apologies, Richard, if it seemed like I was targeting you there—I honestly didn't intend it that way!

And on a related note (but not sparked by this conversation in any way), I made the decision today that I'm going to go by male pronouns again. I'm sick of feeling like I'm not entitled to ask people to use the correct gender with me because I'm not making any immediate plans to medically transition. For a while I thought it was easier to go the gender neutral route because it was embarrassing to correct people when I was quite clearly physically a female in most people's eyes. Right now getting rid of that niggling feeling every time someone calls me 'her' is more important to me than avoiding uncomfortable moments. That's not to say that I'm ready to come out to everybody yet (my manager used the phrase 'fucking dyke' to refer to somebody the other day so I'd rather not hear what she has to say about trans people) but I'm going to start taking small steps again.

So yes: male pronouns, just a heads-up to everyone. :)

carpenoctem
05-10-2012, 02:28 PM
UNCOMFORTABLE HONESTY TIME: Reading about Tom's choice to become Laura made me feel uncomfortable, and I still don't know quite what to think about it. I don't really know any openly trans people - though I have a friend who recently came out as a lesbian, and when I asked her if she felt more like she was a guy she seemed to be drifting towards yes - so there's no human face for me to attach my compassion (or lack thereof) to. I think that's the biggest problem in LGBT issues of any kind, not understanding that behind the Big Issue is a real person with real feelings, and instead there's just the impulse to demonize them by holding up eccentric fringe groups as examples. For example my mom used to know a guy at work who would tell her about how he would go out into the woods with a bunch of guys, like rent a cabin or something, and they would all wear diapers and pacifiers, take lots of drugs and have orgies. So for a long time my mom actually thought all gay people were adult babies who were unable to avoid succumbing to their ravenous urges to have group sex in the woods the moment they left their 9-to-5 jobs.

Anyway I am open to learning more about transgender issues, and I think it's cool that, particularly in the punk subculture, Laura has the courage to put this out there.

Hula
05-10-2012, 02:37 PM
You'd be a prime example for why putting the word out there is good, not bad. I read some numb-skulled comment yesterday where a guy was basically saying trans people shouldn't publicise the fact that they're trans, but how is everybody going to learn if they aren't exposed to it, if they don't see that trans people (along with other LGBT folk) are exactly like everyone else? Unique—but in the same way that every single human being is unique.

A lot of the time activism isn't about working to educate those who are too far gone (essentially the people who are doing the oppressing), it's about broadening the horizons of people who are open to learn but just don't know any better or have honest-to-god never been exposed to people who don't fit their view of the norm.

Dra508
05-10-2012, 06:46 PM
A lot of the time activism isn't about working to educate those who are too far gone (essentially the people who are doing the oppressing), it's about broadening the horizons of people who are open to learn but just don't know any better or have honest-to-god never been exposed to people who don't fit their view of the norm.Hula. He is so smart.

theruiner
05-11-2012, 01:17 AM
Hula, you got it, dude. :D


Anyway I am open to learning more about transgender issues, and I think it's cool that, particularly in the punk subculture, Laura has the courage to put this out there.THAT is the most important thing. It's ok to be unfamiliar with something, as long as you're open-minded and trying to understand. I can't fault anyone for that.

Goldfoot
05-11-2012, 03:55 AM
Hula, you got it, dude. :D

THAT is the most important thing. It's ok to be unfamiliar with something, as long as you're open-minded and trying to understand. I can't fault anyone for that.

I must not be normal when it comes to mentality to issues of this nature. I don't have any personal experience with someone who fits into this category, but I've never thought there was anything wrong with it. Unless it has a negative effect on other people, I'm completely fine with how anyone wants to live their life. I don't have any ridiculous notion that one fringe group is indicative of everyone that is remotely like them, either. There's this guy I used to work with who is, at least from what I've heard (and this was after I worked with him), gay and a furry. This didn't change my opinion of him. I always thought he was strange, but for other reasons. And not that those things make him strange, or are even a bad thing, just that it wasn't surprising to learn those things about him.

Ugh, here I am trying to make sure you don't think I have any negative feelings about this when my point was just that the people who I do know that lead "alternate" lifestyles, I don't even see them on any kind of regular basis. My point is that even though I don't have any friends, or frequent acquaintances, of this kind, I'm still completely fine with however people want to live their lives. It's very rare that I hear an argument AGAINST that holds any kind of weight to me. Most often it is a religious argument, and since I think all religions are bullshit, they do exactly nothing to convince me that any "alternate" lifestyle is wrong in any way. It's even annoying to me when people express their opinions on these matters when those opinions ARE against people living their life in a way this particular person disagrees with. What does it fucking matter? Like I said, as long as you aren't negatively impacting someone else's life, do whatever you want. Who am I, or anyone else, to tell you that you are wrong?

Elke
05-11-2012, 05:37 AM
I read this really interesting story about someone who changes genders almost every day. This person is, amongst many things, bipolar and has borderline syndrome, and one of its manifestations is that sometimes he'll use a very male genderexepression, and some days she'll be extremely feminine, and she wants to be addressed as such. Reading the article was extremely difficult, because where in English you could say 'one is' or 'they are' if you don't want to use gender, there's no such option in Dutch. The only thing to say is 'het', which is kind of like 'it' and not ever used for people.
I read that article, I think, about four times before I finally got it all.
On the other hand, I call everyone 'love' and 'dude' quite indiscriminately, and sometimes people blow up over that.

I guess my personal 'gender really doesn't matter' approach is extremely personal and doesn't work for other people. Sadly.

icklekitty
05-11-2012, 06:08 AM
I always wondered whether the fact that most feminist/poststructural literature was written by francophone people was due to the fact that that language is SO gendered. Everything is either masculine or feminine. Even knives and forks.

Goldfoot
05-11-2012, 12:02 PM
I guess my personal 'gender really doesn't matter' approach is extremely personal and doesn't work for other people. Sadly.

I've got the same approach. Most of my friends and I use "gender specific" words indiscriminately. My friend's fiancée and her friend call each other dude all the time. It's common for use to use "bitch" toward each other, no matter what the sex, in an affectionate fashion. Of course, after reading into this the little I have on the internet, this sort of behavior doesn't seem to be normal. :-\

Dra508
05-11-2012, 05:12 PM
I've got the same approach. Most of my friends and I use "gender specific" words indiscriminately. My friend's fiancée and her friend call each other dude all the time. IActually, I've found people say dude to me (I'm a women) more in the course of conversation as an exclamation with loss of gender specificity: "dude, you should have seen Thom Yorke dancing. It was awesome."

carpenoctem
05-11-2012, 06:50 PM
A lot of the time activism isn't about working to educate those who are too far gone (essentially the people who are doing the oppressing), it's about broadening the horizons of people who are open to learn but just don't know any better or have honest-to-god never been exposed to people who don't fit their view of the norm.

This. Although I like to think no one is too far gone. Unfortunately it may take some kind of tragic event to get them to think differently - it seems like I hear a lot of stories about gay/lesbian/trans suicides, and only in the aftermath do their families start reconsidering their stances. Not that everyone has to be forced to change their stance, they just better be loving and treat that gay/trans person as a human being, considering those who are opposed to it are often opposed for religious reasons! Anyway. It just irritates me because Jesus would've been hanging out with these people and giving them hugs like that group of Christians did (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=christians hugging at pride parade&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CG8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.practikel.com%2F2012%2F01%2F2 7%2Fchristian-group-shows-up-to-chicago-gay-pride-holding-apologetic-signs%2F&ei=cKWtT4LDNYaqgweC_ZS3CQ&usg=AFQjCNGX7-Mcvo6q-08gwU0GjJwBzKRBNw) at the pride parade in Chicago, not sitting behind a desk on the 700 Club, airing self-righteous venom to the world from the safety of a television studio.

richardp
05-11-2012, 07:26 PM
Actually, I've found people say dude to me (I'm a women) more in the course of conversation as an exclamation with loss of gender specificity: "dude, you should have seen Thom Yorke dancing. It was awesome."

Yeah I call EVERYONE dude. Dude to me is not like a gender thing, but more so like... the equivalent of calling someone a friend or something.

theruiner
05-11-2012, 07:56 PM
I've called my best friend "dude" for years (she's a lady). But then I had another friend, back in high school, chew me out for it, so ever since then I've been very careful not to repeat that mistake.

playwithfire
05-11-2012, 08:10 PM
I once tried to figure out a gender neutral pronoun in French class. Not everyone understood why I was asking and me trying to very vaguely explain didn't help. I didn't want to be like BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ARE GENDERQUEER GOSH

sick among the pure
05-11-2012, 09:10 PM
I'm starting to wonder if my tall/long mohawk has a bit of a feminine look to it, and if I should then but it to a shorter, thinner one. Also, getting rid of sideburns since real side burns are starting to grow in, and these are kinda hiding that.
Thoughts?

(pic for reference for those who have not seen)
http://i53.tinypic.com/16m7rl3.jpg

Hula
05-12-2012, 03:23 AM
It's hard to know without seeing the shape of your face—certain hairstyles make my jaw look really square and manly, but if I part it a little differently I look all round-faced and girlish so I guess it comes down to the whole rather than any one portion of it. The 'hawk itself doesn't look feminine, at least not to me.

theruiner
05-12-2012, 05:09 AM
It doesn't seem feminine to me.

Elke
05-12-2012, 06:45 AM
I'm going to third that.

sick among the pure
05-12-2012, 12:47 PM
I'll post a pic of it down once it's clean enough that I'm not all "I LOOK NASTY!" because it's summer vacation and I've been playing video games since my last critique. Think Richard Patrick, in the meantime (if I'm remembering my NIN band members correctly that is).
I think my problem is I feel like since it's long when it's down, it looks more like a chick with an undercut than a guy with a mohawk that's down. It's not practical, or healthy for my hair, to have it up half the time. Think Richard Patrick, in the meantime.

Sutekh
05-12-2012, 08:03 PM
Gender is a social construct, and identity is which you choose. Or both.

both... the constructivists have a strong case but biology would seem to carry certain implications - ie breasts & uterus - but I will stress, I do not believe the individual is necessarily bound to or innately inclined to pursue any particular role

The ideals that trans people strive for do interest me... are they entirely constructed? Or does biology imbue identity with some hardwired reflexes

Social ideas of gender (in my opinion) stem from extremely broad observations of biology, the mildly rational basis of which, I believe, confuses people & leads to the persistence of debate on these issues. People naturally love simple totalising summaries of complex issues (ESPECIALLY bi-polar, two-dimensional accounts, see political left/right male/female etc) but the reality is a mind boggling plurality

blah blah, sorry for jargon I've had a couple

Hula
05-13-2012, 05:12 AM
blah blah, sorry for jargon I've had a couple

You managed to sound intellectual after having 'a couple' at least :P

What you wrote is quite interesting, though. Even as a transman and somebody in favour of abolishing the idea of gender as a strictly binary factor, I feel like there are some inherent ties between biology and gender. I guess it's just hard to ignore the possibility when you consider that gender had to come out of somewhere. Some of them are more obvious than others: women are traditionally seen as 'mothering' and 'gentle', likely because of their biological role as mothers. I imagine men are traditionally seen as strong and aggressive because in antiquity it would've been necessary for them to do all the hunting and gathering while their mates were heavily pregnant and incapacitated. I don't necessarily feel that all women are inherently mothering, though, because you've got my mother who just doesn't know how to handle herself around children even though she's had two and you've got me who never wanted children, not to mention the whole transmasculine thing.

I do wonder sometimes if there's a default 'mode' for males and females (speaking on the most basic biological level here; I'm aware of intersex people and those who identify outside the binary) since hormones surely have to play a part in things, and when you look at how different a man's body turns out to be compared to a woman's when as children they were both virtually identical (superior upper body strength even when they aren't particularly physically active, typically greater height, etc etc) it'd be silly to ignore that there are at least some gendered/biological differences.

It's times like this I wish I'd taken gender studies or something in college. We touched upon it briefly in English Lit during the women's writing module, but that was more about social constructs within gender than biology versus upbringing. I suppose how I feel, without being fully knowledgeable on the subject, is that there probably are some inherent differences between the sexes that propagated the idea of gender. I think the gender binary has become a little bit more irrelevant every day as the years have gone by and women have shifted the historically sexist idea that all they're good for is cooking and raising children and speaking when they're spoken to, but I do see some merit to the idea that women (for the most part) are inherently womanly (whatever the fuck that even means these days) and men are inherently manly. Obviously you have exceptions, and you have people who identify outside of male or female, and you have people like me who are 5'6", have the strength of a kitten and want desperately to be a 6-foot-tall man with incredible deltoids and a massive package. Then again, my dysphoria has always been more physical than social, so the only time I've been bothered by the idea of such a rigid gender binary is when I'm reminded that there are people who still to this day think all women are feeble (both of body and mind) and should and will always be inferior to men.

I'm probably not the best person to speak about it when my idea of my own gender has been so strongly tied to the body I wasn't born with :|

I ramble entirely too much this thread. I feel like I should try to make what I say more concise but then I start to lose my intended meaning.

WHATEVER, I DO WHAT I WANT.

theruiner
05-13-2012, 05:30 AM
Obviously you have exceptions, and you have people who identify outside of male or female, and you have people like me who are 5'6", have the strength of a kitten and want desperately to be a 6-foot-tall man with incredible deltoids and a massive package.Once again, if only we could switch bodies, all your dreams would come true. ;)

icklekitty
05-13-2012, 05:37 AM
both... the constructivists have a strong case but biology would seem to carry certain implications - ie breasts & uterus - but I will stress, I do not believe the individual is necessarily bound to or innately inclined to pursue any particular role

The ideals that trans people strive for do interest me... are they entirely constructed? Or does biology imbue identity with some hardwired reflexes

Social ideas of gender (in my opinion) stem from extremely broad observations of biology, the mildly rational basis of which, I believe, confuses people & leads to the persistence of debate on these issues. People naturally love simple totalising summaries of complex issues (ESPECIALLY bi-polar, two-dimensional accounts, see political left/right male/female etc) but the reality is a mind boggling plurality

blah blah, sorry for jargon I've had a couple

Technically breasts and uterus define sex, which transpeople still have to put down as what is physically there. I agree with allegro re: the definition between gender and identity, but I also think that bit you've put in bold there is completely true.

In an ideal world, we'd have sex (because no matter how you identify, this is necessary for some medical things, I think) and sexuality, but no gender. Gender is the most retarded thing in the world and has no purpose other than to foster micro-mechanics of power; and we're ALL trapped by it.

Hula
05-13-2012, 05:41 AM
Once again, if only we could switch bodies, all your dreams would come true. ;)

We are the literal definition of 'I only want you for your body' :P

Massive package, you say... Where's a wacky scientist when you need one?

Dra508
05-14-2012, 04:03 PM
My big ass corporate employer is encouraging us to celebrate International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia by giving us a banner to put in our email signature. I think I'll save all my emails and send them all on Thursday, May 17th.
https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=b2e88f7739&view=att&th=1375b6d51d8d4581&attid=0.1&disp=emb&zw&atsh=1

theruiner
05-14-2012, 04:09 PM
That's awesome! You work for a kick-ass company. I've never worked for a place that so much as acknowledged that, let alone did something like that.

orestes
05-14-2012, 06:09 PM
We are the literal definition of 'I only want you for your body' :P

Massive package, you say... Where's a wacky scientist when you need one?

Here you go, (http://www.goodvibes.com/display_product.jhtml?id=13BC01&kbid=1003) Hula. (http://www.babeland.com/soft-pack/d/1417_c_151) ;)

theruiner
05-18-2012, 07:28 AM
So, um...you know that whole, like, seeing pictures of the opposite sex and/or seeing people of the opposite sex while out and about and then that horrible depression just washes over you? Yeah. It happens all the time, but a few times last week it was worse than usual. Ugh. I fucking hate this so much.

I'm in limbo until I get medical benefits, then I can see a therapist and really delve into this. Until then, it's just trying to cope like I always have. Stupid dysphoria.

I'm a broken record. But thanks for letting me vent.

playwithfire
05-18-2012, 09:39 AM
Does seeing "transgender" used as a noun make anyone else cringe? I was reading an article on Beth Ditto just now and read this.


"Although Beth had developed strong feelings for Kristen she waited until her nine-year relationship with transgender Freddie Fagula ended in January 2010 before embarking on a romance with Kristen."

Surely that's not PC. I know it's better to say "transgender" than "trangendered" but I thought that was as an adjective. Like "transgender artist" or whatevs.

Hula
05-18-2012, 02:07 PM
I know this is going to sound really stupid, but I shaved my pits today 'cause there's the slightest chance I might be seen without my clothes this weekend and just... I feel like I've let myself down. It's always been such a silly little show of masculinity but it's the little things that help me through the day. The fact that I was so quick to do it out of fear that the person in question would think I was a freak or turn me away or whatever makes me worry that I'll never be fully comfortable being myself with people I'm sexually/emotionally intimate with. On top of that I'm scared I'll put my transition (and my happiness) on the back burner in the long run if it means I can have some semblance of a 'conventional' lifestyle.

I FEEL LIKE SUCH A FRAUD. Ugh.

Anyway.


Surely that's not PC. I know it's better to say "transgender" than "trangendered" but I thought that was as an adjective. Like "transgender artist" or whatevs.

Yeah, transgender as a noun makes me cringe SO MUCH. I've seen people identify as 'a transgender' or 'a bigender' themselves, though, so I guess it's just a matter of people not really knowing any better—even when they are transgender themselves.

Elke
05-19-2012, 06:10 AM
Hula, the only time I shave my armpits is when I go swimming or have to wear like a formal dress. I always keep them neatly trimmed, because I have the kind of hair that would turn me into Robin Williams if I didn't keep it tamed, but I don't shave because I get infections fairly easy when I do. [I'll also have the biggest moustache when I go through menopause. I'm already cringing at the thought of having to wax my face.]
Anyway, it seems like you're making concessions that even women shouldn't be making, but I know how people react to anything but hairless skin on a woman. So in my own limited way, I feel your pain, man.

On the whole noun/adjective thing: I never quite got that. I hate, hate, hate labels. I've always gone for the broadest possible words, myself, like 'not-straight' or 'queer' or even just 'different'. Everything else is putting yourself in a box, however you frame it. So for me, but this is really just my personal feeling on the matter, the difference between an adjective and a noun is like the difference between a cage or a cell. Who gives a shit? Apparently people do, and I don't mean to belittle that, but on a personal level I really, really don't get it.

theruiner
05-19-2012, 07:36 AM
I know this is going to sound really stupid, but I shaved my pits today 'cause there's the slightest chance I might be seen without my clothes this weekend and just... I feel like I've let myself down. It's always been such a silly little show of masculinity but it's the little things that help me through the day. The fact that I was so quick to do it out of fear that the person in question would think I was a freak or turn me away or whatever makes me worry that I'll never be fully comfortable being myself with people I'm sexually/emotionally intimate with. On top of that I'm scared I'll put my transition (and my happiness) on the back burner in the long run if it means I can have some semblance of a 'conventional' lifestyle.

I FEEL LIKE SUCH A FRAUD. Ugh.Don't beat yourself up over it. It's tough. A few years back, I just said 'fuck it' and shaved my legs. Before I was just shaving above the knee because I could wear shorts and no one would notice. But then one day I decided to do the whole thing. It was awesome. I loved it. I felt like I had kind of hit the release valve a bit and let some of the real me out.

Then I stopped, and haven't done it since. Maybe at some point in the future (well, especially if I end up transitioning). But I was playing with fire, and the last thing I want is to have to explain to people why my legs were shaved, especially people I'm not out to.

I guess what I'm saying is, don't feel like a fraud; you're not one. You're trying to get by without drawing unnecessary attention to yourself, without making things uncomfortable for yourself. It's great if you are ready to do such a thing, but you should never feel like you have to if you're not ready.

P.S.: I realized recently that I'm the only MTF on the board (at least the only open one). Weird. Where my MTFs at?!

sick among the pure
05-19-2012, 08:02 AM
Have any transmen who have been on HRT felt random very light menstrual-like cramps? Sometimes I get the slightest cramp, and it weirds me out, because (according to my period tracker app) it's been over 100 days since my last period. My doctor said my T levels are "average" so I'm really confused.

jessamineny
05-19-2012, 08:48 AM
Have any transmen who have been on HRT felt random very light menstrual-like cramps? Sometimes I get the slightest cramp, and it weirds me out, because (according to my period tracker app) it's been over 100 days since my last period. My doctor said my T levels are "average" so I'm really confused.

I can't give you any personal insight, but have you ever had ovarian cysts or been checked for them? Apparently developing PCOS is a risk of long-term HRT... But if you already had an underlying case of PCOS, perhaps HRT could have aggravated it? Just a thought.

sick among the pure
05-19-2012, 09:25 PM
I can't give you any personal insight, but have you ever had ovarian cysts or been checked for them? Apparently developing PCOS is a risk of long-term HRT... But if you already had an underlying case of PCOS, perhaps HRT could have aggravated it? Just a thought.

I don't think I have ever had them, but I haven't been (and can't really be) checked because I have vulvodynia, so I can't handle any kind of pelvic exam.

theruiner
05-21-2012, 06:18 AM
Kevin and Bean, the morning show on Kroq in L.A., had a call-in topic about a week ago asking for transgendered people to call in and talk about what it's like. I'm just getting around to listening now. So far so good, and I think it's awesome that they broached the topic, so far haven't made fun and are really giving a lot of exposure to something that a lot of people don't understand.

That being said, you can tell that they're not experts here. Bean actually said, "We want to talk to people who are transgender or people who are in the process of becoming transgender." Um...what. :D I didn't know you could 'become transgender.'

I know it was an honest mistake. It made me kind of chuckle.


Edit: Oh, God. "They shave down your Adam's apple to make your voice change." What.

Edit #2: The last call they took was from a woman who's ex transitioned from male to female, and I was a little apprehensive when the call started, but by about 30 seconds in it became clear that she was totally supportive of her ex and, even though their marriage dissolved, at least partly because of this, she just wanted her to be happy. And I have to tell you, after listening to the beginning of the segment, when they read really disgusting, horrible comments people were making in the wake of the Tom Gabel story (all the usual "your chromosomes don't change, so you'll never be a real man/woman, you have a mental illness, etc.), to have the segment come around and end with someone so supportive and understanding was outstanding. I did not expect to cry while listening to Kevin and Bean, but damned if I didn't do just that.

theruiner
06-01-2012, 05:40 AM
The full Rolling Stone story of the Against Me! singer is now online. (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-secret-life-of-transgender-rocker-tom-gabel-20120531)

Dra508
06-01-2012, 05:14 PM
The full Rolling Stone story of the Against Me! singer is now online. (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-secret-life-of-transgender-rocker-tom-gabel-20120531)Very interesting article. Thanks for posting. I never read Rolling Stone anymore.

I gotta say, her wife doesn't seem to get it. How could she not know her new middle name?

Goldfoot
06-01-2012, 09:42 PM
So for me, but this is really just my personal feeling on the matter, the difference between an adjective and a noun is like the difference between a cage or a cell.

Can you clarify what you mean by this? Are you referring just to the situation mentioned, where the term transgender is used as a noun, or are you referring to the whole language? An adjective and a noun are definitely different things. I'm not trying to derail the thread, as I'm sure you realize the difference between a noun and an adjective, but the way you worded that, especially comparing them to a cage and cell (which are both nouns), is bugging me.

Elke
06-02-2012, 02:33 AM
Yeah, that was obviously meant to mean 'transgendered the adjective' and 'transgender' the noun.

Dra508
06-04-2012, 05:11 PM
Janet Jackson to produce transgender documentary (http://news.yahoo.com/janet-jackson-produce-transgender-documentary-214046303.html)

icklekitty
07-02-2012, 12:40 PM
Transgender basics: http://www.gaycenter.org/gip/transbasics/video

Magtig
07-02-2012, 03:46 PM
The full Rolling Stone story of the Against Me! singer is now online. (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-secret-life-of-transgender-rocker-tom-gabel-20120531)
The part of the article where she finally came out to her band, and they kind of freaked out and were saying they had to start working out so they could better protect her, was really touching and totally hilarious at the same time.

I'm still struggling to completely come to grips with my simple attraction to trans women. Not the attraction itself, but being open about it with others. I haven't told anyone in my (Mormon) family, and I'm not even sure why I should, especially after just spending the last three weeks with them. Part of me says it's not any of their business and there's simply no need, and another part will never be satisfied with silence. Many of my friends don't know either.

Anyone in here have experience with this one?

icklekitty
07-03-2012, 02:59 AM
Yes, but the explanation isn't entirely relevant to this thread, other than pansexuals being attracted to transpeople. I have different attitudes to three groups of people:
1) work - don't know anything (aside from a few freelance clients) and too much shit-stirring goes on in this office for me to want to
2) family - I don't really see it as important/significant to tell them, but I don't know how they'd take it because despite being non-conservative on other issues, there isn't so much as an openly gay person in my (gigantic) family. There are lots of questions about whether I've found a "serious boyfriend" yet. They don't exactly have a leg to stand on when it comes to judging relationships, but it feels better/less stressful for them not to know. I think. I'd sort of rather they find out about it than I tell them, at least.
3) friends - all my friends know. When it comes up, I tell them. I don't hide it. I couldn't handle being scared of a friend's approval and think I'm better off without them if they can't accept it, because if they don't accept it, they have some moral/ethical issues I can't get on board with.

sick among the pure
07-05-2012, 05:39 PM
So...

I just called and made an appointment for next wednesday with a really good local top surgeon who takes insurance (my insurance "should" cover SRS 100%, according to their website and the representative I talked to when I called them a few weeks ago).
And my ex back up in NY is grabbing the name change forms from the local court house and mailing them down to me tomorrow.

Shit guys, if I'm lucky, I'll be "legit" by November.

Quick question for any FtM who have had top surgery, did your surgeon's secretary tell you to bring photos of what you're looking for in terms of a finished product for your chest? I thought that was kinda weird and don't know how to take that or where to go from here.

orestes
07-11-2012, 07:44 PM
I don't know if anyone here would be interested but this (http://www.the519.org/My%20Files/Trans%20Resources/Sex%20Work/1510_519_transwomen.pdf) safe sex book is now available as a pdf.

Fixer808
07-11-2012, 08:02 PM
bring photos of what you're looking for in terms of a finished product
And so of course you brought this, right?
http://cdn.ifanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/captainliefeld.jpg

Dra508
07-12-2012, 05:33 PM
So...

I just called and made an appointment for next wednesday with a really good local top surgeon who takes insurance (my insurance "should" cover SRS 100%, according to their website and the representative I talked to when I called them a few weeks ago).
And my ex back up in NY is grabbing the name change forms from the local court house and mailing them down to me tomorrow.

Shit guys, if I'm lucky, I'll be "legit" by November.

Quick question for any FtM who have had top surgery, did your surgeon's secretary tell you to bring photos of what you're looking for in terms of a finished product for your chest? I thought that was kinda weird and don't know how to take that or where to go from here.I equate this to when you get a hair cut. Stylist find it easier if you show them a picture. I totally see a surgeon do the same thing. Bring a couple pictures of what you want. Dooo it. Can you really be that far along? Dumb me has always been under the impression that it's a long drawn out process...Good luck.

sick among the pure
07-14-2012, 07:06 PM
I equate this to when you get a hair cut. Stylist find it easier if you show them a picture. I totally see a surgeon do the same thing. Bring a couple pictures of what you want. Dooo it. Can you really be that far along? Dumb me has always been under the impression that it's a long drawn out process...Good luck.

I'm... kinda? I've only been on T since January, but I'm in the right network of people to get shit done. My medical center is specifically for LGBT people, my doctor deals only with trans* paitents, they have a therapist on site for talking with me and ok'ing hormones, and later on letters for surgery/gender marker change for ID's. They have a few recommended surgeons in the area, which is how I found mine. I've technically been out for years, and lived my "real life" experience (being called by my male name and pronouns) for about a year this fall. It's just awkward because I'm in a weird in-between stage where my legal name and gender are female, but I go by male, so at school luckily by now most everyone I have to deal with who would need to know both do, and I have facial hair and a deeper voice and can totally pass if not for my chest. So I'm "that far along" but at the same time I'm not.
All I know is, by November (when I lose my mom's insurance which is good enough to actually "most likely" cover surgery, I should be at a point where I can pass as male and have no weirdness or questions.

jessamineny
09-06-2012, 12:28 PM
For those of you who are transitioning, gender-fluid... a story about the new Web site Buck Angel Dating.

http://www.salon.com/2012/09/06/the_trans_man_of_your_dreams/

Dra508
09-08-2012, 10:14 AM
http://www.wgbh.org/programs/Greater-Boston-11/episodes/Sept-5-2012-Prisoner-Wins-Sex-Change-Surgery-Case-41033

Prisoner Wins Sex-Change Surgery CaseSo many angles on this one.

marodi
10-24-2012, 11:12 AM
Lana Wachowski speaks about nearly committing suicide as a teenager (http://www.tvguide.com/News/Lana-Wachowski-Nearly-Committed-Suicide-1055025.aspx?rss=breakingnews&partnerid=imdb&profileid=01)

Fortunately she didn't and her testimony may be helping others going through the same struggle.

theruiner
10-25-2012, 07:35 PM
I heard a coworker today tell another coworker of mine that he should come in on Halloween as a "tranny." Ugh. First of all, I hate that God damn word so much. Secondly, for obvious reasons, I found that whole idea pretty offensive. Of course, I kept it to myself.

icklekitty
10-26-2012, 05:12 AM
I always assume that tranny means transvestite and not transsexual/transgender. But I know that a lot of people think both mean the same thing. Even though it's a real preference for some, I can see how you can "come as" a transvestite, but not a transperson.

theruiner
01-24-2013, 08:10 PM
Yeah, I shed a few tears. Faith in humanity restored.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-R4vDcM65UI

orestes
01-24-2013, 09:24 PM
I heard a coworker today tell another coworker of mine that he should come in on Halloween as a "tranny." Ugh. First of all, I hate that God damn word so much. Secondly, for obvious reasons, I found that whole idea pretty offensive. Of course, I kept it to myself.

Ugh, the previous store manager at work challenged us to raise money for the local kid's hospital. The goal was something like 11k and if we met it he would wear a dress to work for a day. Every time it was brought up in staff meetings people would tease him about wearing something ridiculous like a strappy dress or he'd have to shave his legs. He was a fucking asshole and this type of behavior only highlighted it.

orestes
02-15-2013, 05:42 PM
Today's Nerdist podcast (http://www.nerdist.com/2013/02/nerdist-podcast-shadi-petosky/) is with Shadi Petosky, who's going through gender reassignment.

Euphemism
02-17-2013, 03:39 AM
I'm very attracted to transgender people of any original gender, androgyny is a beautiful liberating thing. Too bad I live in the south...

sick among the pure
05-27-2013, 10:17 PM
Long time no posts, but, um, I thought I'd share this thing I'm doing with you guys. I'm officially a curator, for a show on transmen, and my school is making sure everyone knows.
http://uarts.edu/events/2013/05/wayfinder-forging-identity
I hope I make my brothers proud...

orestes
06-24-2013, 08:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mCptVSLNAg&amp;feature=c4-overview&amp;list=UU3Ic1DIdHPuC_uY-Ky5rnIw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEJ9zRATO4A

theruiner
06-27-2013, 09:32 PM
Wow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g35kGQGwwM8

Dra508
08-22-2013, 07:43 AM
Interesting turn

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/bradley-manning-chelsea-manning-female-95791.html

This will be the same legal fight the prison system has been fighting in my state against a convicted murderer who wants to transition. The state doesn't want to pay. This story is federal and can set a massive precedent either way.

Iran_Ed
08-22-2013, 09:29 AM
Interesting turn

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/bradley-manning-chelsea-manning-female-95791.html

This will be the same legal fight the prison system has been fighting in my state against a convicted murderer who wants to transition. The state doesn't want to pay. This story is federal and can set a massive precedent either way..

This has long been known, or at least known within my circles. It was form of torture the government used. The inability to identify as she pleased. She's been through enough, I'm glad she feels comfortable to put this out for wide consumption, but knowing this country and the picture they've tried to paint of her already. This "gender change" will probably be seen as the reason these "illegal" act were committed. I bet this becomes more of a scandal than the actual crimes that were committed.

Dra508
08-22-2013, 11:53 AM
^^^ I'm going to bet it was not widely known amongst the average citizenry. I didn't know and I'm way not average, reading at least three different newspaper/websites a day.

I don't know about the news/topic becoming more of a scandal. I was reacting to this news from the perspective of how will this be handled with a person entering the prison. Her desire to 'begin therapy' while a resident in the federal corrections system will be interesting to see how it is handled.

Massachusetts, a very progressive state in some areas, is pushing back on funding
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/02/appeals-court-hears-mass-inmate-sex-change-case/ydqBqn3CsGXAQMMsNbWxYO/story.html


*and I notice that Politico used the wrong pronoun.

Iran_Ed
08-22-2013, 02:18 PM
^^^ I'm going to bet it was not widely known amongst the average citizenry. I didn't know and I'm way not average, reading at least three different newspaper/websites a day.

I don't know about the news/topic becoming more of a scandal. I was reacting to this news from the perspective of how will this be handled with a person entering the prison. Her desire to 'begin therapy' while a resident in the federal corrections system will be interesting to see how it is handled.

Massachusetts, a very progressive state in some areas, is pushing back on funding
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/02/appeals-court-hears-mass-inmate-sex-change-case/ydqBqn3CsGXAQMMsNbWxYO/story.html


*and I notice that Politico used the wrong pronoun.

I thought more people knew. Before the trial even began one of the arguments being used was that the stress over her "gender confusion" led to self hatred and hatred for the country. I'm not sure if that was brought up during the actual trial, but that might just be most infuriating cases of character assassination I've seen. As for the scandal part there shouldn't be any, but people in this country never seem to get angry at the things they most likely need to be angry at.

Chelsea Manning goes to prison for having a working conscience and handles it better than a large percentage of people ever would. She's become a personal hero of mine.

Christo
08-22-2013, 05:49 PM
The defence also fought for questions to be asked upon jury selection to determine whether or not potential jurors were in anyway homophobic/transphobic. They were denied.

I've known about Manning's gender dysmorphia for a while, easily a few years. It was quite widely reported in European media.

The amount of horrible transphobic comments I've read, heard and seen today has made me feel sick. It's a shame that this is going to be spun in a "this horrible she-man is a fucking psycho fag that wants to hurt our country" angle. But at the same time, it brings trans people into the forefront of the news and will hopefully also bring up more discussion and healthy debate.

Dra508
08-22-2013, 09:54 PM
^^^ I'm going to bet it was not widely known amongst the average citizenry. I didn't know and I'm way not average, reading at least three different newspaper/websites a day.

I don't know about the news/topic becoming more of a scandal. I was reacting to this news from the perspective of how will this be handled with a person entering the prison. Her desire to 'begin therapy' while a resident in the federal corrections system will be interesting to see how it is handled.

Massachusetts, a very progressive state in some areas, is pushing back on funding
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/02/appeals-court-hears-mass-inmate-sex-change-case/ydqBqn3CsGXAQMMsNbWxYO/story.html


*and I notice that Politico used the wrong pronoun.

Edit: I actually feel bad that I wasn't aware this. I am officially under a rock and will work to be more informed.

theruiner
08-23-2013, 06:42 PM
You know, it's really nice to know that this board tends to be very accepting and progressive on things like this. After seeing all the horrible comments the last few days about this (and, in spite of me knowing better, I couldn't help but read some of them) I have been reminded of just how ostracized we are as a community. Quite honestly, not that I'm considering anything, but there are times when I see and hear some of the horrible things people say about trans* people and part of me- a small part- almost feels like killing myself. I'm not saying that to be dramatic or anything, that's just genuinely the way I feel. It just feels like most of the god damn world hates who I am and it is so incredibly depressing. This is difficult enough to deal with under the best of circumstances, let alone being confused, let alone not knowing exactly HOW I'm going to pull this off (or if I even can) if I decide to transition let alone the increasing feeling of depression lately that's come about anyway without having to be reminded, over and over again, how much people would think I was a freak for trying to be who I am. Hell, I heard a co-worker refer to someone a couple weeks ago as a "he/she." Of course, she's also incredibly homophobic so this doesn't surprise me.

Anyway, like I said, it's just nice to know this is a safe place to go where I can be reminded that there are people out there who aren't assholes.

On another personal note, I'm really starting to feel like I'm edging closer and closer to deciding to transition. I was talking to my best friend a couple weeks ago about the subject for the first time in awhile and she made a really great point: in spite of my confusion, she thinks (and she stressed that she's not saying this for sure, this is just her gut feeling) that transition is probably right for me because of how much pain this is causing me. As she said, I am a very anxious person anyway, and I mull over even simple decisions, so it makes sense that I just haven't been able to feel convinced enough to do this yet. But she said she thinks the pain I feel whenever I see women, the intense, sad, agonizing pain and the feeling that that's really who I am, is probably my gut telling me my answer. I think she might be right.

*=You know, having been immersed in this community for years I still am not entire sure what the phrasing should be. Transgender? Transgendered? Transsexual? My understanding is that transgender is an umbrella term that sort of encompasses anyone who doesn't feel that their gender conforms to society's expectations, where as transsexual (raises hand) means someone who actually physically wants to change their sex, but they fall under the transgender umbrella, too. Anyway, neither here nor there, I suppose.

Iran_Ed
08-23-2013, 07:25 PM
I haven't heard anyone out in public say anything about Manning yet. I honestly don't think people care about any part of this. The trans part or the political part, which they need to be concerned about.

I also saw footage earlier this week of a trans woman being beaten in Russia by ordinary citizens in daylight while others just watched and admired.

Theruiner, while I'm not trans, I understand your thinking. If you look at a map and point out which places it's ok to be an out LGBT and you have political protection, you see the world is a hell of a lot smaller.

Iran_Ed
08-25-2013, 02:36 PM
If you look at a map and point out which places it's ok to be an out LGBT and you have political protection, you see the world is a hell of a lot smaller.

http://jjarichardson.tumblr.com/image/59320334333 It's worse than I thought it was.

orestes
08-25-2013, 03:43 PM
If anyone would like to write to Chelsea Manning, here is her address (must be addressed as Bradley)

Bradley E. Manning
89289
1300 N. Warehouse Road
Fort Leavenworth, Kansas 66027-2304

Iran_Ed
08-25-2013, 05:14 PM
(must be addressed as Bradley)

How kind of them.

You know I would, but I feel that would put the NSA on my ass so fast.

Dra508
09-05-2013, 05:15 PM
Traveling in Texas, I happened upon this segment on the local NPR show:

http://www.kera.org/2013/09/05/making-the-outside-match-the-inside/

eversonpoe
09-05-2013, 09:06 PM
once again, a thread that i didn't even know existed on this board and am happy to find (though i'm a bit sad about all of the horrible things going on in the world regarding the trans* community).

a brief history of me, as a trans* individual:
for a very, very long time, i wanted to transition (from male to female). it took me a while to figure out why i was always so uncomfortable in my own skin, but when i was about 13, the pieces started falling into place. during high school, i actually started a small fund to put toward my eventual SRS, but plans for that fell through. after high school, i was still very uncomfortable and very confused, and ended up in a 4-year (abusive) relationship with a woman who crammed the need to "be a man" and "man up" down my throat. i lost a lot of myself during those years, but i have worked to find those parts of me again.

i eventually came to terms (and later become about 75% comfortable) with the fact that i'm just a woman in the body of a man, who happens to like having a beard. i consider myself queer in several ways: genderqueer, pansexual, and just plain weird, so i feel the word "queer" is the best way to describe myself. my fiancee loves that i'm extremely feminine but also loves my beard, though i know that if i ever got back to a place where i felt the need to transition, she would fully support me.

anyway, sorry if i'm just randomly jumping into the middle of a conversation, but i got really excited when i saw this thread!

theruiner
09-06-2013, 07:06 AM
^^We have a lot in common (including, sadly, an abusive relationship). I also have a beard which I don't mind terribly. That made me feel really weird and uncomfortable for awhile (the fact that I don't mind it) and still kind of does, but my brother put it this way: dude, it's just an outfit. Which actually makes a lot of sense. It's not so much that I like having a beard as it is that it looks decent on me. For someone who has struggled their whole lives to actually feel like I'm not really ugly, the fact that I found something that fits me (for now) is ok. I'm not wearing it to feel manly, I'm wearing it because it looks decent. But I would drop this thing like a bad habit the minute I decide to transition (and it may happen soon).

icklekitty
09-06-2013, 07:16 AM
One of my closest friends wears a beard with waist-length hair and full make-up. He also likes to wear suits and suck cock. Whatever works.

I have another friend that's a few steps behind eversonpoe. He's GQ, and has just come out of a 20 year marriage with a woman who wanted him to be 100% masculine; she even gets weirded out by his latex clothes. But they've split up and he's moved into a new place and is just starting to flourish as himself. It's really lovely to watch. One thing he mentions is that when he started coming out to people - his friends, his cleaner, his personal trainer - he was both liberated by their acceptance but also mad at his ex-wife for suppressing him for so long and making him feel wrong.

theruiner
09-06-2013, 08:39 PM
^^I appreciate it.

Make no mistake, though, the minute I decide to transition the beard is gone. And then electrolysis to make sure it never comes back. I already have mixed feelings about it and may shave it off at some point.

theruiner
09-13-2013, 03:34 PM
Hmmm... (http://www.avclub.com/articles/cw-developing-drama-about-transgendered-teen,102822/)

(ten characters)

eversonpoe
09-13-2013, 06:19 PM
Hmmm... (http://www.avclub.com/articles/cw-developing-drama-about-transgendered-teen,102822/)

(ten characters)

if they manage to do it right, this would make me SO HAPPY.

theruiner
09-18-2013, 09:03 PM
This hurts SO BAD.

I feel like I'm at the point where I can't even wait until I can get to a psychologist (which should be soon). I feel like I can't go another day like this. :( Depression is creeping up on me again, big time.

icklekitty
09-19-2013, 06:42 AM
Is there a place where you can read up on how psychology sessions for this usually go? I knew that for my (non-gender) stuff that she'd ask me to keep a mood diary and write a summary of significant events in my life, so I turned up with that and said "I've been waiting too long, let's do this".

sick among the pure
09-19-2013, 11:54 PM
This hurts SO BAD.

I feel like I'm at the point where I can't even wait until I can get to a psychologist (which should be soon). I feel like I can't go another day like this. :( Depression is creeping up on me again, big time.


Hang in there, ruiner. The worst part is leading up to the psychologist visit. Not that it's all rainbows (ok, there are some rainbows) after that, but that was the (emotionally/mentally) hardest part. You can do it.

theruiner
09-23-2013, 02:38 AM
Is there a place where you can read up on how psychology sessions for this usually go? I knew that for my (non-gender) stuff that she'd ask me to keep a mood diary and write a summary of significant events in my life, so I turned up with that and said "I've been waiting too long, let's do this".That's the point I'm getting to. I honestly feel like I'm losing my mind. My depression is so bad right now. I'm in the process of trying to find a psychologist, so we'll see how that goes. I need to see someone ASAP.



Hang in there, ruiner. The worst part is leading up to the psychologist visit. Not that it's all rainbows (ok, there are some rainbows) after that, but that was the (emotionally/mentally) hardest part. You can do it.Thanks. I'm trying. The hardest part is the doubt. I'm finally at a place where I can financially pull this off (which was the biggest hurdle for years). If I need to transition, I can do it now. So now it's just a matter of working through the confusion and figuring out if this is really right for me which, frankly, appears to be the case more and more. I was telling my best friend the other night that I honestly could see myself living as a woman within a year. If things go well, I really do think that's a possibility. It's crazy, scary and exciting to possibly be this close. But in the meantime, every day that I'm stuck in gender/sex is killing me.

icklekitty
09-23-2013, 07:04 AM
I think your hunger/desperation is the thing that's going to propel you forward re: getting through the stages quickly. It feels like shit, but people are going to listen.

marodi
09-30-2013, 01:15 PM
http://kotaku.com/xbox-one-presenter-humiliated-me-on-stage-says-transge-1421596988

A "comedian" was trying to be "funny". He only prove to be a major jerk.

theruiner
09-30-2013, 07:01 PM
I can't even begin to tell you how much shit like that hurts and the impact it has on people. I have internalized a lot of the hatred and ignorance I've seen and heard about trans people my entire life and it is such a deep, deep pain I just can't explain it. I know logically that I'm not a freak but I know that as soon as I come out and start living in my real gender and sex what most of the people I meet will be thinking about me. People like this have no clue- absolutely no IDEA- what this does to people, how this affects them and hurts them on such a deep level and the consequences of the things they say. Truly sickening.

eversonpoe
09-30-2013, 08:30 PM
i had a dream the other night that i transitioned. i hadn't really thought about it as a serious option in a while, but the dream has my mind racing about it. and not just because i was a babe ;)

when i told my fiancee, her only negative response was "but what about your beard?!" which i thought was very sweet.

theruiner
10-02-2013, 08:58 PM
Transitioning has finally become a serious option for me and it scares me and excites me at the same time. Just wish I could clear away the confusion and know whether I really want it or not. :/

On the other hand, at least I'm actually at a point where I can finally do something about this if that's the way it's going to go.

Iran_Ed
10-03-2013, 01:51 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-kate-dale/this-is-why-trans-people-rarely-speak-up-when-were-misgendered_b_4030525.html

People are cruel, but man the gaming community can be unrelentless.

Necrodoommonkey
10-03-2013, 08:33 PM
Transitioning has finally become a serious option for me and it scares me and excites me at the same time. Just wish I could clear away the confusion and know whether I really want it or not. :/

On the other hand, at least I'm actually at a point where I can finally do something about this if that's the way it's going to go.

I'm at that point too. It's shitty. Even with a somewhat supportive wife, there's still a chance of things turning sour if I start hrt. But if I don't transition, I'll probably regret it every single day for the rest of my life and holy FUCK the keyboard in ios7 is horrible. It seriously took 3 goddamn minutes to type that.

eversonpoe
10-19-2013, 12:09 AM
ever since i had my transition dream a couple weeks ago, i've been thinking more and more about it. all of my closest friends are very, very supportive of my potential decision.

well...my fiancee and i were watching the "nanageddon" episode of mighty boosh tonight and she made a joke along the lines of "will you still love me when i'm old?" so i tried to make a lighthearted joke about transitioning and being a grandma with her, but since we'd both had a couple drinks, she took it way too seriously, and the night went very, very south.

she's apparently not as supportive as i'd previously thought, and i spent about an hour consoling her while she was crying on the bathroom floor about feeling like a bad person.

meanwhile, i had to sit there, straight-faced, assuring her that i love her (which i obviously do).

i'm not in the best mood right now...

orestes
10-24-2013, 10:58 PM
A clothing line catered for women and transmen. (http://www.saintharridan.com)

theruiner
11-24-2013, 01:13 AM
So, I came out to my sister tonight. It went really well. She wasn't the least bit phased. She thought I was joking at first, because I do joke around a lot about a hell of a lot of things (and I had just been joking around a minute before). She was just really sad that I had gone through this and that I continue to go through it. She was incredibly supportive. Good kid, that one.

Fixer808
11-24-2013, 01:31 AM
Your sister rocks.

AgentofChaos
11-24-2013, 05:56 AM
ever since i had my transition dream a couple weeks ago, i've been thinking more and more about it. all of my closest friends are very, very supportive of my potential decision.

well...my fiancee and i were watching the "nanageddon" episode of mighty boosh tonight and she made a joke along the lines of "will you still love me when i'm old?" so i tried to make a lighthearted joke about transitioning and being a grandma with her, but since we'd both had a couple drinks, she took it way too seriously, and the night went very, very south.

she's apparently not as supportive as i'd previously thought, and i spent about an hour consoling her while she was crying on the bathroom floor about feeling like a bad person.

meanwhile, i had to sit there, straight-faced, assuring her that i love her (which i obviously do).

i'm not in the best mood right now...

Can't help myself... curious as to how this played out one month later... any further details?

eversonpoe
11-24-2013, 06:37 PM
Can't help myself... curious as to how this played out one month later... any further details?

haven't really brought it up again. :/

she's been dealing with a lot of stress (she hates her job) and we've been really getting into the details of wedding planning (it's not til next september but we're trying to do as much now so we don't have to panic when it gets closer), so it just isn't a good time to try to even talk about the possibility.

Dra508
11-24-2013, 09:04 PM
Your sister rocks.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AgentofChaos
11-24-2013, 09:47 PM
haven't really brought it up again. :/

she's been dealing with a lot of stress (she hates her job) and we've been really getting into the details of wedding planning (it's not til next september but we're trying to do as much now so we don't have to panic when it gets closer), so it just isn't a good time to try to even talk about the possibility.


Sorry I have to. So.... you think a good time to discuss this further would be AFTER the wedding? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is not the right call. It's one thing to love a person unconditionally and make a commitment to them. But in as much as a person doesn't chose to be gay, it would be very hard to force someone who is into men to basically turn around and be with a woman. It's a bait and switch. I'm married and I love my wife to the ends of the earth. But if she turned around and wanted to transition, I'd feel pretty fuckin betrayed. I married a woman. I'd want to help her, and I'd want her to be happy of course, but on a long enough time frame I don't think I could sustain as it wouldn't be a two way street any longer. You need to get this out in the wash now. Being married for a year, 5 years, 10 years, and deciding at that point would be incredibly selfish, in the exact same way it's selfish for gay people to enter into straight marriages for social reasons only to eventually cheat and become "full time gay" many years later. Sure everyone works on their schedule of self discovery, but deep down you have to know what the realities are for yourself and you need to be 100% open about that before you tie the knot. She needs to know that this is something you are seriously considering and may ultimately do down the road. If she's ok with that, great. But it sounds like she isn't, and your suppressing so you don't have to deal with it now, which isn't fucking healthy for you or fair to her. And if you aren't sure, that's ok too but then you should probably put things off until you figure that out. Do the right thing for yourself and her and don't marry this woman until you have this serious discussion.

theruiner
12-16-2013, 06:21 PM
So...I just scheduled my first appointment with a therapist that specializes in gender. I've gone to therapists before but never a specialist. This is huge for me. I really, really think I might end up transitioning and relatively soon. If everything comes together I might be on hormones within a year (this is just my completely unprofessional calculation but I really think it's a possibility). I can't believe I'm actually doing this.

jessamineny
12-16-2013, 06:26 PM
So fucking happy for you! ::big hugs::

sick among the pure
12-16-2013, 08:54 PM
YAY BIG SETBACK.
So, I've been slowly saving up to get top surgery, because let's face it, going to a NIN pit in a binder sucks, I don't wanna do that anymore. And then this weekend BLAM fiance's car quits working. Our savings is going to have to go toward that first. Some days I feel like I'm never going to get surgery. I haven't even gotten the money together for my name change yet.

Fixer808
12-16-2013, 09:02 PM
It'll happen, don't worry! Me and Tom Petty know that the waiting IS the hardest part, but you'll get there.

PUNCHLINE
12-21-2013, 09:35 AM
Ive been reading this thread with interest, some of the comments are the same as Ive been hearing for years, about gender being "fluid" and how you should just be you, etc etc. Unless people are going through it it`s hard to understand really, an academic viewpoint is exactly that, just textbook and theory. At the end of the day a lot of it is down to trying to find piece of mind and an identity, and that doesnt just mean "being YOU", lol. Life isnt that easy.
Its one of the last great taboos, the last great social stigmas to go through: these days being gay is generally accepted, but dressing as a member of the opposite sex in public in an everyday social setting is really the quickest way to become a freakshow unfortunately. :(:(

theruiner
12-23-2013, 08:15 PM
So...today was my first time seeing a therapist who specializes in gender. I'm seriously walking on clouds right now.

There were three major roadblocks to this happening and two of them are now gone. She dissolved one of my biggest fears, and one of the things that's been holding me back, in one conversation. Now there's two other things to figure out- one more (very personal) roadblock and then figuring out if this is really what I want. But I'm well on my way. This was a very real possibility before but today it became even more real. This, seriously, honest to god, might actually be happening. I can't wait to see where this goes next.

Fixer808
12-23-2013, 11:56 PM
I'm happy it went so well for you! First step's the hardest.

Magtig
01-13-2014, 12:08 AM
Wow! One of my best friend's 14yr old daughters did this video on transgender history for her National History class. It's incredible to think that this generation will be replacing the tired old thoughts and attitudes with knowledge like this. If you like it, leave an encouraging comment; this had to have taken a ton of work.

http://youtu.be/ngEucyf6vT8

sick among the pure
01-13-2014, 09:12 PM
Is it bad that a major reason I'm applying for jobs at a specific school (even if it's just a janitor, yay Bachelor's degree...) is because their health insurance covers trans health costs, which includes top surgery, and could cover pretty much all of is but a small copay? Because I will gladly clean toilets with my degree paper to get rid of my chest.

icklekitty
01-14-2014, 06:36 AM
Well, that post made me come up with about 20 Trent Reznor jokes in 30 seconds. But it sounds like a good idea because the gain of no-breasts is worth the "loss" of a few years looking at toilets. Also it means you can launch into your chosen career as your actual self, fresh slate etc.

theruiner
01-18-2014, 08:43 PM
So, two things. First, I dress in women's clothes all the time and it's always pleasant but tonight it just feels so nice. I don't know what it is. It feels right, I guess. It's a nice little sliver of happy in an otherwise confusing and emotionally draining situation.

Second, Monday my therapist is going to do "the evaluation" to determine what her official opinion is on the gender situation (and, I suppose, whether or not she thinks I should ever transition). I am keeping in mind that this is ONLY her opinion and she's not God and if I disagree with her (which I very well might) I can always find another therapist, that even if she says no, you shouldn't transition, that's not the final word on the subject and I can still pursue it with someone else. I know all that. But it's still potentially going to be uncomfortable and frustrating.

The thing is, if I knew for sure one way or the other it would be different. I don't know. I'm still struggling with it so if she comes back with, no, you are not transsexual (as opposed to transgender, which I know I am) and thus shouldn't transition, I can't say for sure that she's wrong. But I am going to be VERY skeptical and will probably go seek another opinion. And I won't let myself be swayed unless I genuinely think she's right. This is my life and my path and no one else is going to tell me who I am.

I know I sound a bit hostile but I'm just...this whole process is very frustrating. I kind of understand a bit more now why so many transsexuals have such a huge problem with "the gatekeepers." If they don't give the ok, you don't transition. Well, not safely, anyway. And you probably won't find a doctor to actually do gender reassignment surgery without their ok. So having my fate in the hands of another person is a bit scary. But, like I said, there are other therapists and I can always go to someone else if I feel this one is wrong.

Dra508
01-19-2014, 10:49 AM
I can understand the anxiety of feeling like someone else might have " your fate in their hands", but you're saying you aren't sure so maybe just take the therapist evaluation as her opinion no matter what she says. You've been thinking about this for a long time, you haven't been talking about it with "the pros" very long so maybe it'll be good to have the time to work out the unknowns or unsure parts so you really are sure- either way.

Having said that, I heard a friend's recent experience with a therapist (not this domain- family therapy) and it was clear for many reasons he was not the greatest therapist. One definitely can't just hand over decisions.

sick among the pure
01-19-2014, 08:29 PM
Having said that, I heard a friend's recent experience with a therapist (not this domain- family therapy) and it was clear for many reasons he was not the greatest therapist. One definitely can't just hand over decisions.

God yes. I went through 3 therapists for depression when I was younger, one of which was CERTAIN my depression was because of my mom's battle with breast cancer, ignoring the fact that I had symptoms years before she was diagnosed.
You can't let any one professional tell you what to do with your life, just understand what they say and why, take that into consideration, and do what you think is best for you. Take all the time you need.

Dra508
01-24-2014, 06:57 AM
http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/living-transgender-teenager]
My local NPR station is doing a series on a transgender teen.

theruiner
01-27-2014, 04:17 PM
I don't know how to feel about this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL8gwe2D2q4

icklekitty
01-27-2014, 04:26 PM
Transpeople can be vapid camwhores too.

theruiner
02-18-2014, 05:16 PM
So, my therapist is pretty convinced that I really am transsexual (my word, not hers; she and I have different definitions of that word, I found out) and that I would be happy transitioning. I am not as convinced. In fact, I've really been having very serious doubts. She thinks that, deep down, I know what I want (and that what I want is to transition) but fear is getting in the way of me seeing that and causing the confusion. I think it's the confusion about my feelings that's causing the fear. I want to believe that she's right, I really would like to believe that I want to- and will- transition, but I have been having such extreme doubts and have been leaning the opposite direction. The fact is this isn't making much sense to me anymore, I'm not feeling it. This has happened before but never for this long. Still, some part of me must want this because, as I told her, I would be disappointed if she told me she thought I wasn't transsexual*.

In fact, the other day, after the weeks of doubt I've been expressing to her and how it doesn't feel right any more and blah, blah, blah, I asked her flat out if she still felt that ultimately she thinks I would be happy transitioning or if she had changed her mind and she said that no, she hadn't changed her mind, and she still thought that's what would make me happy. And you know what? I was relieved to hear that. Really relieved. I would have been very upset if she had said the opposite, in spite of the way I've been feeling. And I even told her, flat out, if she ever told me she thought I shouldn't transition I would find another therapist, because I am not even remotely ready to believe that yet.

So...I don't know. It's very confusing, very stressful and very depressing. And there are times when it does feel right, but they are fleeting and few and far between.

Oh, also, I went to a transgender support group the other day, the first one ever of this particular group (my therapist put it together) and it was horribly uncomfortable. I'm not going back for any more. There's another support group in Phoenix that I've been to a few times that I was a LOT more comfortable at. Maybe I'll attend some of their meetings instead. I am realizing that it would be nice to meet other people in the community and maybe even make some new friends. Because I don't have any transgender friends in real life (though I have some online, thanks to this wonderful little message board!)

*=I know I'm transgender (which is an umbrella term that kind of encompasses anyone who doesn't feel that they are exactly the gender they were assigned at birth/society wants them to be) but the question is whether or not I'm transsexual (whether I feel my body is wrong and want to actually physically take hormones and possibly get gender reassignment surgery).

Dra508
02-18-2014, 10:03 PM
^^^ just a comment on the therapy. Seems to be very typical technique trying to make/ get to your own decisions. As depressed as you might get about some of it, don't you think that that is part of the process? I do.

What was wrong with the support group that makes you not want to give it another shot?

theruiner
02-20-2014, 05:23 PM
Well, one of the rules of the support group (I found out after I got there) was that if you ever decide to leave the group you have to come back for one last session and tell everyone you're leaving and why. I was not comfortable with that. There's another group I have gone to before (and probably will again) that didn't have any sort of rule like that. You were free to come and go as you please and I was actually specifically told by someone that people sometimes come once or twice and never come again, others come and then leave for periods of time and then come back. There was no pressure to come in and have to explain yourself to everyone. I understand the reasoning behind such a thing but it's not something I'm comfortable with, so I'm thinking I'm just going to go back to that other support group I had gone to years ago instead.

Plus, the other group was WAY cheaper. This support group costs $30 a session and they're only an hour. The other one was a donation of $5 or $10 (can't remember which) and was an hour and a half and (at least when I went) the first support group of the month (there are two every month) has a bonus hour and a half "group therapy session" that anyone could go to on top of the regular hour and a half session. Three hours beats the very strict one hour time limit on this one.

Also, I decided that I would go dressed up (this was the first time I have ever been out in "public" en femme). I hated the way I looked and felt really uncomfortable and depressed about that. Plus just the vibe of the session was really uncomfortable to me and I can't put my finger on why but it just was. The other group I mentioned felt WAY more inviting. Maybe it's because everyone was nervous but it was just a way friendlier atmosphere at the other one and I had some very nice, enjoyable conversations before and after that group. There were a lot more people and it was a way more laid back atmosphere than this one.

So, yeah. Not going back to this one. I've thought about it over the last few days after my therapist asked me to consider it but the answer is definitely no. I will, however, go back to the other one because I remember it being such a good experience. I am NOT going dressed up to that one, though. Not any time soon.

theruiner
02-24-2014, 07:22 PM
This was seriously awesome. I cried twice today reading this damn article. The first time was when I read it initially and the second time was while re-reading it. It's just...it's amazing. One of the most powerful things I've ever read in my life. Maybe that's partly because I've been this kid and I know what it's like to feel like you have to hide who you are and I spent my entire childhood trapped in the wrong body and wrong gender and couldn't tell a soul about it, but this hit me hard. And it made my day.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/09/my-son-wears-dresses-get-over-it/279333/

playwithfire
03-22-2014, 10:14 PM
"Mr. Angel" -- an amazing documentary about trans performer and activist Buck Angel, just hit Netflix streaming. It's a fantastic watch, and features a nice chunk of commentary from muh boss. Buck is a fucking hero.

http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/70273275?strkid=1518222906_0_0&trkid=222336&movieid=70273275

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rhg7G4Kn914/Urt2HExoxrI/AAAAAAAAvIY/gQUFIQuZh4A/s400/21043527_20130924163028956.jpg

sick among the pure
03-22-2014, 11:36 PM
"Mr. Angel" -- an amazing documentary about trans performer and activist Buck Angel, just hit Netflix streaming. It's a fantastic watch, and features a nice chunk of commentary from muh boss. Buck is a fucking hero.

http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/70273275?strkid=1518222906_0_0&trkid=222336&movieid=70273275

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rhg7G4Kn914/Urt2HExoxrI/AAAAAAAAvIY/gQUFIQuZh4A/s400/21043527_20130924163028956.jpg

Thanks for the heads up, I'll be adding that right away. I love this man, and everything he does. I had some e-mail correspondence with him at one point, when I wrote a college paper on him (and interviewed him for it). I almost met him, twice, because he often comes to the Philly Trans Health Conference.

orestes
03-23-2014, 02:55 PM
These are amazing transitions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6HaVYg6kB4

orestes
03-23-2014, 02:56 PM
FtM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99aSOLC3JL4

theruiner
03-23-2014, 03:25 PM
Transition videos are amazing. I'll try to track down some of my favorites later when I have a bit more time. I can't tell you how inspiring they can be or how much hope they give me.

eversonpoe
03-23-2014, 10:33 PM
"Mr. Angel" -- an amazing documentary about trans performer and activist Buck Angel, just hit Netflix streaming. It's a fantastic watch, and features a nice chunk of commentary from muh boss. Buck is a fucking hero.

http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/70273275?strkid=1518222906_0_0&trkid=222336&movieid=70273275

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rhg7G4Kn914/Urt2HExoxrI/AAAAAAAAvIY/gQUFIQuZh4A/s400/21043527_20130924163028956.jpg

i've heard some very unsettling things about how venomous buck is toward certain large groups of people, so i don't know. when i first heard of him, i thought he was awesome...but after reading things like this (http://genderterror.com/2013/12/12/buck-angel-and-transgasm/), i'm not so sure. : /

eversonpoe
03-23-2014, 10:37 PM
also:

sarah (my fiancee) and i had a big, long talk today about many things; long-term goals like buying a house and having a kid, as well as more pressing issues like our sparse sex life, and we FINALLY discussed the possibility of my transition.

the short version:
she was very positive, and very understanding, and (very fairly) said that it would be strange having me change so much, but that she would support me, and obviously still love me.
i'm already extremely feminine (other than my beard) and i don't know if i'd ever want to transition as far has having bottom surgery, but she assured me that she would remain by my side if i ever decided to take any steps in this direction.

so...yay! :D

playwithfire
03-24-2014, 12:00 AM
i've heard some very unsettling things about how venomous buck is toward certain large groups of people, so i don't know. when i first heard of him, i thought he was awesome...but after reading things like this (http://genderterror.com/2013/12/12/buck-angel-and-transgasm/), i'm not so sure. : /

Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of that. I do think a small portion of the criticism edged into over-sensitivity, but hell, at least people are asking tough questions and having high standards. The impression I got from that wasn't that Buck was a jerk, but that he had some learning still to do and doesn't like being wrong. Hopefully he realizes that. I do still think he's a good guy (my boss being good friends with him may give me a slightly biased opinion because my boss is a really good person and I trust her taste in people) but those are clearly some real opportunities for him to grow.

I don't think most people realize that bottom surgery isn't something most transmen get. While people absolutely have the right to choose it and do whatever they want with their bodies, it isn't anywhere on the same level as genital reconstructive surgery for transwomen. Like not even close.

icklekitty
03-24-2014, 07:51 AM
I don't think most people realize that bottom surgery isn't something most transmen get. While people absolutely have the right to choose it and do whatever they want with their bodies, it isn't anywhere on the same level as genital reconstructive surgery for transwomen. Like not even close.

By get do you mean understand or receive?

playwithfire
03-24-2014, 10:04 AM
Sorry, receive.

icklekitty
03-24-2014, 10:13 AM
Very interesting.

playwithfire
03-24-2014, 10:19 AM
Yeah, I mean, I shouldn't and don't want to diminish it as a viable option for people who want it and understand the processes, because of course it is.

sick among the pure
03-24-2014, 01:17 PM
Yeah, I mean, I shouldn't and don't want to diminish it as a viable option for people who want it and understand the processes, because of course it is.

I agree. I am all for anyone who wants to have the surgery, but where medical science stands right now, it's not nearly what I would want. FtM genital reconstruction surgery just really hasn't caught up to the level that MtF is at right now. Which, for my bank account, I guess isn't a terrible thing, as I don't see having enough money just for top surgery alone for years. I just have my fingers crossed that by the time I'm financially stable, maybe a combination of stem cell research and the exciting world of 3-D printing will have advanced enough that they can grow or print me something that is much more functional and aesthetically correct than what is possible now.

playwithfire
03-24-2014, 01:25 PM
Gives the "D" in "3-D" a whole new meaning.

theruiner
03-24-2014, 05:48 PM
Yeah, it really sucks that bottom surgery for FTM isn't very advanced. I am very curious and excited to see what new techniques and procedures will be available in the future for both FTM and MTF. It would be nice if there was something new like, say, in the next few years but I imagine it's going to be awhile.

Then again, maybe it'll be quick. Maybe there will be a game changer here in the next few years. They're already talking about genes that they can turn off and on that can change one's gender (or something along those lines, though they've only studied it in rats so far but they had successfully changed a rat's genitalia from female to male by a trick of genetics, which is kind of mind blowing, honestly. It doesn't even seem like it's possible).

So, on a personal note, I'm still really wrestling with this. Right now it just seems so up in the air as to whether I'm ever going to transition or not. I really could see it going either way. I know what I want to happen (I hope I ultimately realize that transition is the right way to go) but I have to make sure that's the right path. My therapist has actually said that she's open to the possibility that I could try hormones for a brief (very brief) period of time at some point to help me gauge whether it feels right or not (if I haven't figured it out by then). That's at least six months away because I have a lot of weight to lose first before I'll be healthy enough to do so but I'm not against the possibility. The only issue are the physical changes, which can begin in as little as two weeks. That's a pretty serious thing to take into consideration, even for a trial run. But if I still haven't figured this out in six months I might have to just bite the bullet and try it because I can't imagine living much longer in this state of not being sure.

icklekitty
03-25-2014, 07:41 AM
1. Wait, is your psychiatrist recommending hormone medication? I'm sure that should be done by a gender reassignment doctor.
2. Are you seeing a gender reassignment doctor yet? It sounds like you're at the point where you would benefit from that, as that kind of doctor can help you visualise your female self and let you consider what "me after" might look like (almost in a mommywhatwillIlooklike kind of way). And from my experience of friends who are taking hormones right now, that comes way, way later. Like, they had to already be living as women first. I can ask one of my friends to write to you if it might help?

theruiner
03-25-2014, 06:25 PM
Hiya!

Yeah, my psychologist actually asked me yesterday if I would consider a consultation with a medical doctor regarding hormones. In fact, I actually called and scheduled it today (though my appointment is a month away). It's only going to be for a consultation and possibly a blood test but I don't see myself diving in at this moment.

Also, I have heard that it might be different in the U.K. but over here it's generally your therapist who gives the yes or no on hormones and then you see a doctor (usually an endocrinologist though the one she recommended is a D.O.) who prescribes it and monitors you medically. And you don't have to be full time over here to go on hormones. In fact, it seems like most people I've read about on message boards/blogs/etc. usually go on hormones for awhile while still living in their original gender until they have feminized enough that they feel comfortable going full time (which is the way I'm going to do it, too, if I decide to transition). It takes awhile for noticeable feminization (the general consensus seems to be a year before you're really in the "well, I probably should start living full time because everybody mistakes me for female now anyway" camp). But of course it can vary by individual.

But yeah! Progress! I was actually going to mention the news here today anyway so, yeah. There it is. I'm actually going to get a consultation on hormones. Again, I'm not even close to committing yet or even doing a trial run but I don't think it would hurt to find out more.

theruiner
04-06-2014, 07:02 PM
So, my best friend and my therapist have both floated the idea of living more as a woman, really trying it out and this weekend I decided I was going to do just that. Originally it was only going to be yesterday but then I woke up today and just felt like doing it again. So I've spent the entire weekend dressed as a woman (except when I left my place, but the entire time I was in my place this whole weekend I didn't wear men's clothes at all). I have never done that before. I dress every night but it's usually a couple hours after I get home and for the last couple of hours before bed (and to bed). But never during an entire weekend. It was nice. It was interesting.

Also, in spite of the fact that I really was pretty convinced that this consultation with an endocrinologist in a few weeks would be just that, a consultation, I am much more open to the possibility of trying hormones for awhile as a trial run. I really am starting to think that that's the only way I'm ever going to clear this confusion. If it feels right, well, that should be a pretty good indication. If it feels wrong then...well, that's a pretty good indication, too. I don't think I'll be cleared to do it because of health reasons (though once I lose this weight it will be a different story) but I suppose it's possible.

Which means that it is possible, just possible, that I might actually be on hormones a month from now. Which is kind of amazing. Just the fact that that's even a possibility now. This has gone from something I've thought about every single day since I was four years old to now actually really being a serious possibility and SOON. It's weird. And I really feel like I am starting to lean in the direction of wanting to transition for sure. That's the way I felt yesterday, at least. Today the nagging doubts come back. But you know what's funny? When the doubts aren't clogging my head, when I start focusing on transition, I'm happy. The further away I move from that the unhappier I am. Which to my therapist seems to be an indication that that's what I really want and I would like to think she's right. Unfortunately, there's just too much legitimacy to the doubts, it's not just coming from nowhere and I think there are very strong reasons why this might not be a good idea. BUT I'm still hoping that I'm wrong and there are times when it feels so right and I feel very calm and at peace with it (transitioning). So...I don't know. All I know is I'm finally making very real steps on this journey, something I have never done before. This time next month I might be on hormones. Just the fact that that's even a possibility is crazy to me. We'll see, I guess.

sick among the pure
04-06-2014, 08:54 PM
Ok, so, I need the opinion of people who can really understand my situation.
I have to go up to NY later this month to renew my permit. (A friend of mine is taking me to the Toronto NIN show, so I need to pretend I'm a NY resident still a little longer so I can cross the boarder. If I had a job, and enough time, I would just opt for a passport.) I am 100% getting a new photo, because not only is my photo on my current ID just so ridiculously old, but since I've been on T for over 2 years now, I don't really look anything like my photo. Hell, it was taken before I got my mohawk. I had problems with people not believing it was my ID in the past, mostly due to transitioning (I should be happy I pass so well that they don't believe it, but it sucks when you're stuck trying to get back into the US for a half hour). SO. I have the option of changing my gender marker on my ID, since I have the necessary letter from my doctor (which is all NY needs). But I won't have the money and time to get my name legally changed for a while still. A year minimum. Do you guys think I should get my gender marker changed as well when I renew, or just get a new photo and hold off on the gender marker until I can change my name? I don't know if having the gender marker match my appearance, but not name, would make it more or less confusing for people who don't fully understand (/believe in? yeah, that's a thing...) trans* people.
Oh, as for the US boarder douche, he asked if I had a second ID. I don't. Because who has 2 government photo IDs? I had to give him my credit card, which also had my legal name on it, and wait a half hour for him to decide if I was me. I never thought I'd miss Philly, every time I've used my ID down here, it sometimes takes a few seconds to "get it", but everyone does.

Dra508
04-07-2014, 08:44 PM
http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/04/07/transgender-artists-whitney

jessamineny
04-07-2014, 10:35 PM
Ok, so, I need the opinion of people who can really understand my situation. <snip>


Your birth name is pretty traditionally feminine iirc, so potentially you'd have to continually deal with explaining that you haven't legally changed your name yet (and keep facing delays at the border). But you're already dealing with that anyway since the image on your current ID doesn't look like you...

sick among the pure
04-07-2014, 11:26 PM
Your birth name is pretty traditionally feminine iirc, so potentially you'd have to continually deal with explaining that you haven't legally changed your name yet (and keep facing delays at the border). But you're already dealing with that anyway since the image on your current ID doesn't look like you...

Yeah. And I mean, you've met me a few times now. If I handed you a photo ID with a very feminine name and photo, but male gender marker, do you think that would make a difference in believing it was my ID? If I worded that weirdly, I am half awake, lol.

jessamineny
04-08-2014, 07:28 AM
I, personally, wouldn't notice the gender on an ID, and because of the traditionally feminine name would automatically assume you were a very butch woman. I'd assume the same for other "regular" people, but I'm not sure what "official" people (like border guards or cops) would look at then do about it. Do you know a cop (or know anybody who does) so you could ask for their feedback?

Fixer808
04-08-2014, 08:48 AM
who has 2 government photo IDs?
Well to get into the US from Canada I need a passport, so I suppose my second ID would be my driver's license, but that's probably beside the point... As for your question, shit... I don't know. I would say change the gender marker, because that's who you are.

sick among the pure
04-08-2014, 08:15 PM
Well to get into the US from Canada I need a passport, so I suppose my second ID would be my driver's license, but that's probably beside the point... As for your question, shit... I don't know. I would say change the gender marker, because that's who you are.

For NY state residents, you can get a special driver's license that has an RFID chip with info so you don't need a passport. It's one of like 3 or so states that have them (as far as I know). It's a little extra money, but way less than half the cost of a passport, and only takes 1-2 weeks instead of like 6 or more.

theruiner
04-09-2014, 07:42 PM
I just bought this. I'm starting right now. Wow. Here we go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gQN_dGyJ5U

Cat Mom
04-10-2014, 06:27 PM
I just bought this. I'm starting right now. Wow. Here we go.
Holy crap! How do they do that?

theruiner
04-10-2014, 09:58 PM
Right?! I guess I'll find out how well it works in a month. :)

Cat Mom
04-10-2014, 10:02 PM
That's friggin' amazing!!

theruiner
04-10-2014, 10:12 PM
I am looking forward to freaking out my best friend if I can get my voice that good. ha! I mean, I posted about starting on Facebook but if she didn't see that post then hopefully it will be a little weird when I answer the phone in my new voice one of these days. ;)

Assuming it works that well but it seems pretty legit. I'm only on the first lesson so far. Of course this is just the "beginner" course so I'm sure there are more (and it probably takes more to get that good) but I'll see how I'm doing in a month. If there's a lot of progress I'll consider doing the next one.

Also, this week has been crazy. Since my therapist asked me to start embracing and living the life more, I've just been doing more and more feminine things. I'm still not sure if I'm going to transition but I don't see any harm in experimenting, trying it out more and more, adding more elements to what I'm doing. It's kind of been a bit of an adventure. Baby steps, granted, but a lot of them. I think I'm going to go out to dinner Saturday after my support group fully dressed with some of the other people there. Granted, we'll be in a very gay/trans friendly part of town (which is probably best for my first time out dressed) but it's still a big step for me! Never been dressed outside of a support group (which I only started doing recently as well).

Cat Mom
04-10-2014, 10:17 PM
I am looking forward to freaking out my best friend if I can get my voice that good. ha! I mean, I posted about starting on Facebook but if she didn't see that post then hopefully it will be a little weird when I answer the phone in my new voice one of these days. ;)
Girl, you could freak my ass out with that shit, too! That is awesome! I'm sure with enough practice, you can master it. There's gotta be some "trick" that's easy to master.

(I wish I could lower my voice. I wonder if there's a video for that.)

playwithfire
04-11-2014, 06:15 AM
Girl, you could freak my ass out with that shit, too! That is awesome! I'm sure with enough practice, you can master it. There's gotta be some "trick" that's easy to master.

(I wish I could lower my voice. I wonder if there's a video for that.)

No trick. My guess is that she's putting her voice in a more mixed placement (resonating less in the chest/more in the head) and stuff like that. If you wanted to lower your voice, I'd say practice speaking in chest voice more (resonance somewhat out of your head, larynx relaxed), which would probably be better for you anyway... lots of crazy stuff.

I actually do wonder about whether voice feminization limits vocal capabilities, but if it does, the cost is worth it.

Cat Mom
04-11-2014, 10:24 AM
No trick. My guess is that she's putting her voice in a more mixed placement (resonating less in the chest/more in the head) and stuff like that.
Well, but that's a "trick." It's not the "natural" voice. My "natural" voice borders on shrill, it's always been this way. But she (prior post) revised her "natural." We worked with some speech and phonation for my communication degree and there can be some level of stress on the larynx if you don't do this stuff correctly.

playwithfire
04-11-2014, 10:03 PM
Well, okay. Lots of people talk in mix, though, so I think it really depends on what you want out of things. There are lots of ways to not screw up your voice. I'm actually really curious about this process.

edit - OOH. BAM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_therapy_%28transgender%29#Physiological

Cat Mom
04-11-2014, 10:29 PM
A series of tricks, yup. Whole bunch of them! Mostly the larynx, though. The voice is very complicated. Fascinating stuff.

theruiner
04-13-2014, 02:41 AM
So, today was pretty insane. I took some pretty big steps today.

First, I went out shopping with a friend of mine this afternoon. I put on mascara and, what the hell, lip gloss. Just walked around with it. Just decided to say "fuck it."

While we were shopping I was talking to her and was like, yeah, I almost think I need a purse at this point because the last time I went to my support group dressed I had no pockets and thus no place to put the insane amount of stuff I carry around with me. She's like, so...why don't you buy a purse? So that's what I did. I was never interested in purses up until this point but I have to say, now that I have one, I kind of love it. I felt very feminine wearing it, using it. Every time I opened it up and pulled something out of it it made me happy.

So, after this afternoon's shopping trip, I went out to my support group meeting dressed again tonight. And afterward we went to Denny's. So I officially, for the first time in my entire life, actually went out in public dressed up. It was surprisingly easy. I was a little nervous at first (just a little) but by about halfway through I didn't even give it a second thought. I was a little concerned about the bathroom (since I haven't had any hormones and haven't transitioned, like, at all, there was no doubt I was using the men's room still...but the thought of going in there in a skirt and make up was a but unnerving). Fortunately there was no one in there.

Then I realized that I needed something at the store, and I didn't want to wait until tomorrow. Crap. Do I go home and change or do I just go as is? Fuck it, I'll just go the way I am.

Yeah. That felt like a good idea right up until I pulled into the Wal-Mart parking lot. Why it was so crowded at 11:45 at night is beyond me but there were a lot of cars in the parking lot. I looked at the door and just waves and waves of people were coming out. I hesitated for a moment but then I went for it. And the entire time I was in there I was saying to myself- out loud, under my breath- why am I doing this, why am I doing this, why am I doing this? I got what I needed, stood for what felt like an excruciatingly long time while the guy in front of me sloooooowly bagged up his stuff, counted his change, scratched his ass, tapped his foot a few times, recounted his money, etc., etc. All the while there's no line behind me but if I was there any longer there would have been. All I wanted, more than anything in the world, was to just get my crap and get out of there as quickly as possible. Finally the checkout opened up, I bought my stuff and high tailed it to my car.

Other than one guy who I could have sworn did a double take at me as I walked by him, no one seemed to notice me. But man, that was uncomfortable. From what everyone who has transitioned has told me, it gets easier every time you do it, but I'm definitely not there yet. Not something I plan on repeating any time soon.

But yeah. Oh, also, the people at the support group were super nice. It was great to talk to people who have been through the same thing. There were so many times tonight where one person would say something and the rest of us would go, yup, I've been there, I know EXACTLY what you mean. It was funny, one of the women there said she had felt this way since she was four years old. And I thought to myself, huh, that's the exact age when I first realized it, too. And before I could say anything, another woman goes, "Oh, wow, I was four, too!" And then another woman said, "Yeah, I was four when I first noticed, too. Weird." And then I said it and then I think maybe even another person said it. All of us, or most of us, it seemed, pinpointed the age of four. Weird.

Anyway, it has been a great day and I am tired and going to bed. Kind of bummed to take these clothes off but tomorrow's another day (and, much like last weekend, I will wrap up this weekend dressed as a woman pretty much the whole time, with the exception of running to the store tomorrow...not doing that again).

eversonpoe
04-14-2014, 08:55 AM
re: going to the store - there is something about bix box stores that gives me panic attacks, so i actually fully understand why that, of all of the things you did that, caused you so much anxiety. but serious props on not only being able to deal with it, but for all of the positive experiences you had!

theruiner
04-14-2014, 05:53 PM
Thanks!

Yeah, I decided that from now on, dressed or not, I'm going to carry my purse with me whenever I go out. For a few reasons- one, I like it and it makes me feel more feminine, two I really want to live this more and more and this is just another aspect of that and three I really want to push myself to do things, even if they make me uncomfortable, because the more I do it the more I will get used to it and feel better about it.

I went out a couple of times yesterday with my purse (while otherwise being in guy mode) and it was EXTREMELY uncomfortable. But I'm going to keep doing it. I can't move forward if I don't keep pushing myself to move further into uncharted territory.

Wolfkiller
04-16-2014, 12:53 PM
I was going to ask about the role of gender stereotypes in the world of trans, but I feel like that was cleared up rather well right on the first page! That's what I get for being a lurker and not starting at the beginning...

Instead I'll ask how you guys all feel about the word "tranny." Up until recently, I wasn't aware that was considered an offense word. Is that universally accepted as a no-no, even when not being used in an insulting way? Just curious how the ETS crew feels about it.

eversonpoe
04-16-2014, 04:25 PM
I was going to ask about the role of gender stereotypes in the world of trans, but I feel like that was cleared up rather well right on the first page! That's what I get for being a lurker and not starting at the beginning...

Instead I'll ask how you guys all feel about the word "tranny." Up until recently, I wasn't aware that was considered an offense word. Is that universally accepted as a no-no, even when not being used in an insulting way? Just curious how the ETS crew feels about it.

i feel the same way about it that i do about fag, which is to say it makes my blood boil and i don't think anyone should use it.

i know that a lot of people in the gay community use the F word because they've "taken it back" but i don't actually see any power in doing that. the word still has deeply ingrained negativity in it, especially for me personally, and i hate it.
likewise, i have never found the T word to be anything but terribly offensive. if i ever transition and someone calls me that, you can bet i'm going to lose my temper.

theruiner
04-16-2014, 06:46 PM
Agreed. I think it's a disgusting word and I can't stand hearing it.

kel
04-16-2014, 06:49 PM
as a gay man, i understand the power of a hateful word (and i stopped using the "t" word years ago), but this week there was a big ruckus over rupaul's use of "she-mail" (as in "ooh, girl, you've got she mail" -- drag race's tyra mail, essentially). ru addressed it, apologized, removed it from the show, and will edit it out in future reruns.

this was done the day chaz bono and his grandmother were special guests. that's just anecdotal info, but coincidental.

was this necessary? does the term "she mail," used in this context, bother any trans members here?