The Transgender Thread

[theruiner]

Not a fan of the word she-male, either. To me, tranny and she-male come from the less accepting and ignorant culture of, "Oh, look, it's a freak in a dress" and not actually seeing trans women for the women (and human beings) that they are. It's a way to strip people of their humanity, to make them the butt of a joke instead of acknowledging them as a human being. I understand some people may not mean it that way, but perhaps they haven't thought it all the way through. But yeah. They're both derogatory words, in my book, and anyone who calls me either one of those things is going to get ripped a new one.

[kel]

it's "she mail."

okay, thanks for answering.

[theruiner]

Oh, sorry, dude. I thought you were mentioning that as an example but speaking more broadly about the term in general.

[kel]

no, my question was mainly about word policing and where we eventually draw the line. i read an op-ed in huff post written by a trans woman who was baffled by the controversy.

[allegro]

it's "she mail."

okay, thanks for answering.
She MAIL? Like, YOU'VE GOT SHE MAIL? Like Tyra mail bwa ha ha ha that's too funny!!!!

We have a het friend who has magazines and videos devoted to she-male porn. Lots and lots of it. It was rather shocking to us when we discovered it during a party at his house but maybe not all that shocking actually. His wife knew about it. But then he got caught hanging out too much with a singer named Michelle from the Kit Kat Lounge (http://www.kitkatchicago.com/mobile/index.html) and he was confused. I don't know the term for this but Michelle was GORGEOUS, tall, black, with huge boobs and a huge schlong and she liked having big boobs and a huge schlong. And singing as a female at the Kit Kat.

[playwithfire]

There's no term. It's a matter of whatever Michelle wanted to be called. I would just call her a woman unless corrected, unless she lived off the clock as a guy.

I think this all comes back to gender and sexuality being a spectrum, not a series of clear options.

(For the record I am VERY attracted to that combination of sex characteristics.)

[allegro]

Some of my gay friends just LOVED boobs. LOVED. Beyond loved. Not that they wanted to have any on THEMSELVES, mind you, but ... Just saying ...

[playwithfire]

I was attracted to beautiful women with cocks long before I gave a shit about boobs. I like them more than I used to (used to be way more towards apathy) but it's still not about that. I like women. I like dicks. I like the combination.

[allegro]

I don't think my gay friends were attracted to women at all, though. Just the boobs.

[playwithfire]

But sexually or just "these are delightful"? Anyway, I don't want to derail too much. Some drag performers are creating an illusion, some are women and some prefer another label. It depends on the person.

[allegro]

But sexually or just "these are delightful"?
Good question. To the best of my knowledge, These are delightful.

Drag that have had surgery (Michelle, breast implants) are beyond illusion. It doesn't matter the label, though; like you said, it's whatever is good for them, but from what I can recall, Michelle was comfortable with she-male, she didn't seem too hung up on labels.

[playwithfire]

Yeah, so it comes down to how she thinks of herself (and she may not think of herself as a her at all, we have no way of knowing). There's no term. None that aren't offensive and only still usable in porn-land.

And plenty of drag performers have had extensive surgery (Detox, for an example) without having their sex characteristics changed. Illusion varies.

[allegro]

I never had this conversation with her so I have no idea.

[eversonpoe]

as a gay man, i understand the power of a hateful word (and i stopped using the "t" word years ago), but this week there was a big ruckus over rupaul's use of "she-mail" (as in "ooh, girl, you've got she mail" -- drag race's tyra mail, essentially). ru addressed it, apologized, removed it from the show, and will edit it out in future reruns.

this was done the day chaz bono and his grandmother were special guests. that's just anecdotal info, but coincidental.

was this necessary? does the term "she mail," used in this context, bother any trans members here?

part of the controversy started in a previous episode wherein they played a game for one of the mini-challenges: "female or she-male."
the object was to identify from a zoomed in portion of a picture whether the subject was a "biological woman or a psychological woman."
several transgender folks spoke out about its offensiveness, including Carmen Carrera, a former contestant on drag race, saying that it was offensive and kind of tasteless.
ru decided that it was best to avoid the controversy, so not only removed that segment from the episode, but also removed the "she-mail" from "oooh, girl, you've got she-mail" in all future episodes and airings of re-runs.

also, the woman on huffpo who wrote that op-ed claimed that "Trans people are forever indebted to drag for the mainstream explosion of gender as we see it today" which is utter fucking bullshit, in my opinion.
i love drag and i love rupaul and i love drag race, but that statement is ridiculous, and ru did the right thing by removing the offensive bits. i don't think that it's "over-policing" but proper awareness of your target audience, and sensitivity to the struggle of some of the members of the LGBTQ community.

i was never that bothered by the "she-mail" segment because it was a pun more than an insult, but the "female or shemale" segment definitely made me very uncomfortable. they could have easily called it "queen or drag queen" or something similar.

(source of that huff-po piece) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/our-lady-j/rupauls-drag-race_b_5148719.html?utm_hp_ref=tw)

[eversonpoe]

oh, also, just as an aside, i almost exclusively watch trans porn. it's not a fetish, it's simply what i find attractive, and what i want to be, ideally. i hate the language used on a lot of the sites, but there's not much i can do about that except support the ones that are more inclusive and less offensive. but i've mentioned this over in the spice thread ;)

[allegro]

It kinda goes in both threads though, right? (I've never been in the spice thread and I'm not gonna start now)

Wouldn't "queen or drag queen" be offensive to somebody else?

As far as drag and mainstream, have you ever been to the Kit Kat? You're in Chicago, right? In the early-80s, the only drag clubs were gay bars. I went to drag contests in Detroit gay bars in the early 80s where everybody was channeling Diana Ross and Bonnie Pointer. The Kit Kat is in Boys Town, which is no longer Boys Town because Gen X and their kids moved in and the Boys were forced out and into Andersonville, and the biggest parties at the Kit Kat? Straight chick BACHELORETTE PARTIES! Shitfaced straight women drinking Cosmos. So it's def more "mainstream" than decades ago. Now, whether or not this has made it better (or worse) for the LGBT community I can't say.

[playwithfire]

I find it funny (sad) the number of people who are fond of drag culture but uncomfortable with gay culture. WHAT.

[icklekitty]

as a gay man, i understand the power of a hateful word (and i stopped using the "t" word years ago), but this week there was a big ruckus over rupaul's use of "she-mail" (as in "ooh, girl, you've got she mail" -- drag race's tyra mail, essentially). ru addressed it, apologized, removed it from the show, and will edit it out in future reruns.

this was done the day chaz bono and his grandmother were special guests. that's just anecdotal info, but coincidental.

was this necessary? does the term "she mail," used in this context, bother any trans members here?

Hold, up, RuPaul's been saying "she mail" every episode for six seasons and people are complaining now?



it's not a fetish, it's simply what i find attractive,

I think fetish is defined as what you find attractive that doesn't fit into the status quo? But I know what you mean, the slobbering image that it conjures up isn't flattering.


Some of my gay friends just LOVED boobs. LOVED. Beyond loved. Not that they wanted to have any on THEMSELVES, mind you, but ... Just saying ...

The male gays on ETS keep touching mine :(

[eversonpoe]

Hold, up, RuPaul's been saying "she mail" every episode for six seasons and people are complaining now?

like i said, it was the "female or shemale" segment that was the issue. i think that, rather than throw gasoline on the fire after that, ru decided to remove "you've got she-mail" as well.
like i also said, the "you've got she-mail" never bothered me, because it was a pun, rather than an insult. but i understand the reasoning behind getting rid of it.

[eversonpoe]

I find it funny (sad) the number of people who are fond of drag culture but uncomfortable with gay culture. WHAT.

(i hope this wasn't in reference to anything i said)

i have no problem with gay culture, i just don't like the use of the F word by some members of the community.

i also kind of wish that the LGBTQ community wasn't all lumped together sometimes...there are plenty of people that fall under only one of those letters at a time who tend to be very discriminatory against others who are part of the overall community. i wish that oppression by the majority was more uniting of the associated minorities, but it seems like sometimes it really causes a big divide. :/

[icklekitty]

like i said, it was the "female or shemale" segment that was the issue. i think that, rather than throw gasoline on the fire after that, ru decided to remove "you've got she-mail" as well.
like i also said, the "you've got she-mail" never bothered me, because it was a pun, rather than an insult. but i understand the reasoning behind getting rid of it. I wasn't referring to how it affected you personally.

[playwithfire]

(i hope this wasn't in reference to anything i said)

Definitely not. No worries.

[screwdriver]

oh, also, just as an aside, i almost exclusively watch trans porn. it's not a fetish, it's simply what i find attractive, and what i want to be, ideally. i hate the language used on a lot of the sites, but there's not much i can do about that except support the ones that are more inclusive and less offensive. but i've mentioned this over in the spice thread ;)

total nonsequitur but as a bi-male married to a beautiful woman, I almost exclusively watch trans porn too (I've gotten her mildly into it just by virtue of osmosis)

the language bothers me, like you said, but what's great about the internet these days is that I feel like I can find amateur avenues that I think are people exploring their own boundaries in more honest, less degrading ways

[theruiner]

I thought this was pretty good. Also, I like that Patton Oswalt tweeted it. As if I needed another reason to love that guy.

http://www.cracked.com/article_20997_5-shocking-realities-being-transgender-media-ignores.html

[theruiner]

Ugh. The trans feelings seem to be going away. Like, a lot. I hope I'm wrong. I don't want them gone. But I'm just seriously doubting that this is what I want now.

The funny thing is, I showed a picture of me to a few friends that I took while dressed with a bit of makeup on and I've gotten really positive feedback. One friend (a fellow ETSer) was saying how happy and comfortable I looked, and how she thinks I could pass really well. I'm not saying all that to brag (and I still am not entirely comfortable with the way I look) but it was really nice, and a month or two ago I would have been over the moon. But it's just cruel irony that it's coming at a time when this feels like it might be winding down. I would have killed to have heard that a couple years ago. I would like to really enjoy that, and part of me does, but I realize that it might be all for naught because it's starting to look like I'm not going to do this.

We'll see. I haven't given up hope yet. I'm still going to therapy every week, I'm still living as a woman part time (pretty much any time I'm not at work or out and about). I'm doing the right things, and I'm glad I'm finally figuring this out and finally living it to see what it feels like but I don't like where this appears to be going.

[theruiner]

Sorry. Triple post. Gah. Sorry.

But I just had to share this.

So, I just came back from my hormone consult with two prescriptions- one for spironolactone (testosterone blocker) and one for estradiol.

Granted, it's just a trial run to see how I feel about all this. And I can't start taking it for probably a month (I can't do it until after my labs get back...I go in for labs in two weeks and then it can take up to two weeks to hear back). And I promised my therapist I would wait until she gives the ok (I am completely fine with this). But...in about a month, I should be on estrogen. And a testosterone blocker. Probably for about six weeks. And after that? Well, we'll see. But this shit is happening. After 31 fucking years of waiting, this is finally happening.

[jessamineny]

Starting Jan. 1, the city I live in (Rochester, NY) will add transgender healthcare benefits (http://www.cityofrochester.gov/article.aspx?id=8589961264) for city employees and their family members. Pretty cool. It will even cover reassignment surgery.

[sick among the pure]

Starting Jan. 1, the city I live in (Rochester, NY) will add transgender healthcare benefits (http://www.cityofrochester.gov/article.aspx?id=8589961264) for city employees and their family members. Pretty cool. It will even cover reassignment surgery.

I saw that on FB, one of my friends from back home was a part of the group that got that shit going. So there's still some hope of moving back to WNY...

Tiny update (not tiny so much as quick, because I need to make myself get off the interwebs and sleep 15 min ago) I got my state ID renewed (mostly so I could go to Toronto for NIN in July, yay NY special ID!) and not only updated the photo so I have facial hair and whatnot, but I got my gender marker changed. Next step, hopefully I get the job I'm interviewing for tomorrow, so I can have health insurance, so I can save up for eventual top surgery. Unfortunately, $70-$100k in student loans are looming over my head now, so eventual means super eventual.

[jessamineny]

Ugh. A morning radio show went on a disgusting, moronic rant (http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/05/21/kimberly_and_beck_rochester_radio_hosts_go_on_tran sphobic_tirade_listen.html) about the transgender healthcare benefits in Rochester. There's a change.org petition (https://www.change.org/petitions/mike-danger-remove-kimberly-and-beck-as-hosts-of-the-breakfast-buzz/sponsors/new)to get them removed.

[theruiner]

^^I knew I shouldn't look in the comments section. Why do I always end up looking in the comments section, against my better judgement?

Which reminds me of, and gives me a good excuse to post, this, which I saw floating around a TG FB page and kind of loved.

http://i.imgur.com/UxMIpwp.jpg

Also, one week until I start hormones. Woot! It's been a roller coaster of emotion the last couple of weeks, swinging from being excited and really wanting this to not being sure I want this at all. I have no idea where I'm at at this point but hopefully this will (finally) help to clear things up. Whichever way it goes, at least I'll finally have it figured out. I hope.

[jessamineny]

Update: The vice president and general manager of the radio station issued a statement saying, “Because of Kimberly and Beck’s hateful comments to the transgender community, we have suspended them indefinitely.”

[jessamineny]

Update 2: "This morning Entercom fired Kimberly and Beck effective immediately. Their hateful comments against the transgender community do not represent our station or our company. We deeply apologize to the transgender community, the community of Rochester, and anyone else who was offended by their hateful comments. We are proud of our past work on behalf of the local LGBT community and we remain committed to that partnership." Sue Munn Vice-President/General Manager Entercom Rochester

[Fixer808]

Staggering ignorance, so rarely, but so sweetly punished.

Also, it may have been the panicked reaction of a corporation suddenly finding themselves in an ugly spotlight, but I had to email them to thank them for said reaction. Hell, maybe soon more media companies will realize that they don't need these kinds of idiots on their ships.

[jessamineny]

Those two had been on the air together for about a decade, I believe, so it's a pretty big deal for them to be fired. Thank god.

[Sarah K]

Ugh, I just listened to that.

I mean, I have no radio experience. But I imagine there are some other people around who aren't on the air, and heard that train wreck happening. How was nobody like HEY, STOP?!

Goddamn.

[theruiner]

So...I'm officially on estrogen now. So that happened.

[jessamineny]

wooooooo. I'm really happy for you! :)

[theruiner]

Thanks!

It's been a roller coaster already. Right before I did it I started to get REALLY apprehensive and really felt like I didn't want to do it. I took it two hours ago and for the first hour and a half or so that feeling persisted. But then I started feeling better about it. My therapist said that's very normal when you make such a huge decision. A friend pointed out that it could be OCD/anxiety causing the apprehension. They absolutely both could be right. *shrug* We'll see.

[sick among the pure]

Happy e-day! :D

[allegro]

Medicare lifts ban on gender reassignment surgery (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/ban-lifted-on-medicare-coverage-for-sex-change-surgery/2014/05/30/28bcd122-e818-11e3-a86b-362fd5443d19_story.html?tid=sm_fb).

[theruiner]

So, I am now officially on a testosterone blocker. So as of now, I have almost no testosterone in my body and my main sex hormone is estrogen. That is amazing. And awesome. And kind of blows me away.

[aggroculture]

How do you feel? Do you feel different? Curious.
I have friends who have gone the opposite route, and discussed taking T.

[theruiner]

I haven't felt anything yet, honestly. I wasn't expecting a massive change (though some people do have a big change, for other people it's more subtle) but I was kind of hoping for something.

To be fair, I wasn't on T blockers for the last week I've been taking estrogen so maybe now something will feel different. And the T blocker can take up to a week to start really kicking in. But my testosterone was SUPER low before I started the T blocker so I was kind of hoping that the estrogen would have some effect. The doctor told me when I was in a couple days ago that, even though my estrogen level will still be pretty low (it'll probably be in the normal range for a male but in the very high part of the normal range) with very little testosterone I should notice some effects. He said it's not really a matter of having estrogen so high as it is having that balance- low T, high E. Which is something most men don't experience, and is the balance that most women have (albeit in much higher levels). So it's having estrogen as my primary sex hormone and having barely any T that really should make things feel different.

We'll see. Now, if I ever decide to really go for it and have my doses upped so physical changes start happening, then I will really be experiencing something quite amazing. I'm hoping this does affect me mentally but only time will tell. In two weeks if I'm still feeling nothing then I might be a bit more concerned.

[theruiner]

Amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9iFZI4bTPE

[Dra508]

I don't think this is ground breaking, or the first city to do this, but it's forward progress.

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2014/06/11/boston-gender-identity-non-discrimination/

[theruiner]

So...small update, I guess. Not much to update. I switched therapists (in need of a second opinion) and had my first session with her today. I was a bit nervous because I'm running low on T blockers and my doctor is waiting for me to give the ok to keep going before he will refill. Luckily, my therapist said she feels ok with me continuing, at least for a bit longer. So I'm hoping to continue the trial run for at least another month.

No mental or emotional changes to report. Well, there have been a few times when I got really anxious and depressed...but I was like that before. It's hard to tell whether that's the hormones affecting me or just my regular depression.

Physically a couple of really small things but nothing even really worth mentioning. So much for "your boobs are going to start growing really quick." ha!

But yeah, Thursday will make a month on hormones. Crazy.

[Dra508]

So...small update, I guess. Not much to update. I switched therapists (in need of a second opinion) and had my first session with her today. I was a bit nervous because I'm running low on T blockers and my doctor is waiting for me to give the ok to keep going before he will refill. Luckily, my therapist said she feels ok with me continuing, at least for a bit longer. So I'm hoping to continue the trial run for at least another month.

No mental or emotional changes to report. Well, there have been a few times when I got really anxious and depressed...but I was like that before. It's hard to tell whether that's the hormones affecting me or just my regular depression.

Physically a couple of really small things but nothing even really worth mentioning. So much for "your boobs are going to start growing really quick." ha!

But yeah, Thursday will make a month on hormones. Crazy.

Why'd you switch therapist?

Anxiety and depression is gender neutral. Raises hand. :/

[theruiner]

Oh, I know. But going on hormones messes with the emotional equilibrium for some people. So it's hard to tell if it's just my normal depression or the hormones taking me on a roller coaster.

I switched therapists because I had kind of hit a road block with my last one. After 6 months I still wasn't any closer to figuring it out, so we both felt that going to someone else- at least for a little while- for a second opinion might be helpful.

[theruiner]

I was out with a friend tonight and she told me that my face looks different than the last time she saw me. She asked if I had lost weight and I said no, actually, I haven't lost any recently. She swore she could see a definite difference. Which makes me wonder...hormones? Because that's the way they say it goes- you don't see the changes in yourself, at least at first, because they're so gradual, but other people who haven't seen you in awhile will notice the difference. And if that is the reason, then I'm very happy to hear it (and I'm just going to assume that's probably it because it makes me feel good, so there).

Also, my appetite seems to be getting smaller. Maybe it's not related to the hormones at all, but it didn't start until after I started taking them. I could just be reaching for straws at this point, since I'm hoping for changes, however small at first, but haven't really seen much. But those two are interesting. I've been on them for over a month now so while it's entirely possible it's too soon for anything to change, it's also very possible that the changes are happening. I've read enough accounts to know it's possible. Anyway, it'll be interesting to see where things are at at the end of my second month.

[allegro]

Anytime I've been on estrogen I've gained weight LOL.

[GulDukat]

I read this book in grad school and found it to be very informative and readable.
http://www.amazon.com/Queer-Theory-Gender-Instant-Wilchins/dp/B00DT6955S/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404567998&sr=1-8&keywords=riki+wilchins

Wilchins has written a few books on the subject.

[theruiner]

Anytime I've been on estrogen I've gained weight LOL.

Yeah, that was kind of what I was expecting. Or I had always heard that it's more difficult to lose weight on estrogen. I definitely didn't lose any weight. *shrug* I don't know. I'm just happy that something appears to be different.

[sick among the pure]

Yeah, that was kind of what I was expecting. Or I had always heard that it's more difficult to lose weight on estrogen. I definitely didn't lose any weight. *shrug* I don't know. I'm just happy that something appears to be different.

I don't really know enough about MtF hormone transitioning to help, but in my experience going the opposite direction, it wasn't so much about gaining or losing fat so much as redistribution. Less thighs and hips, more stomach.

Physical changes come on depressingly slow. It seems like it takes forever. But that's because you're waiting and wanting and expecting and living in it every second. I remember checking multiple times a day for my facial hair to start growing in and thickening. I didn't even really notice that it was noticeably different until I saw a friend I hadn't seen in months and the first thing she said to me was "Dude, your beard is SO BEARD!"



Slight aside, since I got my gender marker changed on my ID, I am ridiculously excited about NIN later this month. Last year, I had such problems at the boarder. I can't wait to see how much better things will be this time. Also, I had a fun exchange with the nin.com ticket lady, which lead to her remembering me every time she saw me. I hope she's still around, she was SO trans friendly.

[theruiner]

I don't really know enough about MtF hormone transitioning to help, but in my experience going the opposite direction, it wasn't so much about gaining or losing fat so much as redistribution. Less thighs and hips, more stomach.

Yeah, I had thought about that. I was thinking maybe the fat is just shifting away from my upper body to my thighs/hips/butt. Which I figured would be so depressingly slow I'm not even paying attention to it yet, because I know that will take forever. But I know, if I decide to continue down this path, that one day stuff will shift around. It will be fascinating when it does.


Physical changes come on depressingly slow. It seems like it takes forever. But that's because you're waiting and wanting and expecting and living in it every second. I remember checking multiple times a day for my facial hair to start growing in and thickening. I didn't even really notice that it was noticeably different until I saw a friend I hadn't seen in months and the first thing she said to me was "Dude, your beard is SO BEARD!"

Heh...yeah, you're totally spot on about living in it every second. I've spent the last month waiting for SOMETHING to change. And really, pretty much nothing has, at least not anything I've noticed myself (my face doesn't seem different to me so I just have to trust my friend on that, but I haven't seen it myself). And there's just so much variation on how long this takes. I have heard MANY people, many, many people, swear up and down that their breasts started growing in the first month. I've also heard many people say that's insane and their's took three months or more and not to expect anything before then. I know it's a YMMV thing but it could really go either way, and that both gives me hope and frustrated me at the same time.


Slight aside, since I got my gender marker changed on my ID, I am ridiculously excited about NIN later this month. Last year, I had such problems at the boarder. I can't wait to see how much better things will be this time. Also, I had a fun exchange with the nin.com ticket lady, which lead to her remembering me every time she saw me. I hope she's still around, she was SO trans friendly. Woo! NIN! And trans friendly people are the best. I remember buying a dress, years ago, and without a hint of irony or sarcasm, the woman who was ringing up my stuff was like, "Oh, this is cute. This will look good on you." To her it was just a nice thing to say to someone that she probably didn't give another thought to, but to me it was something I will always remember.

[sick among the pure]

Woo! NIN! And trans friendly people are the best. I remember buying a dress, years ago, and without a hint of irony or sarcasm, the woman who was ringing up my stuff was like, "Oh, this is cute. This will look good on you." To her it was just a nice thing to say to someone that she probably didn't give another thought to, but to me it was something I will always remember.

Yeah, the first show I went to (Toronto, also where I'm going later this month) she was walking through the line taking IDs to give out wristbands. When she got to me, she asked if that was my name or my friend's (ironically, my friend who I was with, though she got her own ticket, has the same legal name as me.) All I said was "yeah, I could either pay to have my name legally changed, or see 3 NIN shows. Same price." and she INSTANTLY got what I was saying, and apologized. I just laughed it off, told her it's not a big deal, it happens a lot unfortunately. I let her know that I'd be seeing her again the next show in Cleveland, and then a few days later in Newark, so she could make a mental note. I made an unexpected trip to DC, too, where she instantly noticed me and talked to me for a few minutes. There is nothing better than having official NIN people that are trans friendly (from the choices on nin.com for gender identity, Trent seems good with it all too. Then again, you could also put down stuff like "ninja"...)

[eversonpoe]

the other day, i was talking to an online friend (cis female) who just got breast augmentation, discussing how her recovery was going, what made her choose to do it, and about my eventual desire to transition. after our discussion, i decided to start doing research, because i realized i didn't know much about the actual transition process.

in discussing my possible transition with my fiancee, i had mentioned wanting to keep my penis, because i do. despite wanting to essentially be a woman, i like having a penis. i like having that kind of sex with my female partner. and i guess i assumed that wouldn't be a problem given the prevalence of trans-women in porn who still perform*. but i was wrong. and i feel stupid.
i mean, it makes perfect sense that after a period of time on estrogen, you would lose your ability to ejaculate and eventually your ability to get erections, but i guess i had never thought about it. so my transition might be completely off the table, and i may have to just continue being (what i lovingly refer to myself as) a bearded lady.

*i noticed recently that bailey jay has lost her ability to ejaculate, but many of the other trans-actresses have not. how do they achieve this? maybe this is a question for playwithfire

[playwithfire]

*i noticed recently that bailey jay has lost her ability to ejaculate, but many of the other trans-actresses have not. how do they achieve this? maybe this is a question for @playwithfire (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=15)

This is actually something I learned recently as well, while talking with a friend who might transition.

Like, my familiarity with trans* bodies comes primarily from porn. And those women can do all that stuff, so it was surprising for me to realize that this is something estrogen eventually does away with. I actually still have a lot of questions around it, like, do most actresses take viagra, what? Especially in queer porn, where you see such a wide variety of body types and people having sex however they want... I wonder how often that's at play?

But, there isn't really a good place to learn that information.

Did you notice that with Bailey from watching her videos? I honestly haven't seen many of her videos.

[eversonpoe]

This is actually something I learned recently as well, while talking with a friend who might transition.

Like, my familiarity with trans* bodies comes primarily from porn. And those women can do all that stuff, so it was surprising for me to realize that this is something estrogen eventually does away with. I actually still have a lot of questions around it, like, do most actresses take viagra, what? Especially in queer porn, where you see such a wide variety of body types and people having sex however they want... I wonder how often that's at play?

But, there isn't really a good place to learn that information.

Did you notice that with Bailey from watching her videos? I honestly haven't seen many of her videos.

yeah, my experience parallels yours pretty much, except that i have seen a lot of bailey's videos. in the most recent ones, you can tell that she is still having orgasms, but there's nothing coming out at all. it's a bit disconcerting, because as much as i don't like cumshots, seeing someone with a penis have an orgasm without seeing come is so out of the ordinary.

i wish there was a good source of info for this. :/

[theruiner]

But, there isn't really a good place to learn that information.

Actually...this might be the perfect place to ask such a question: http://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender

That's honestly something I've been struggling with myself. I always thought when I transitioned that I would eventually have bottom surgery and it wouldn't matter if I lost my erections or not. But now that I'm in this in-between stage of not knowing if I want to continue transitioning or not, being on estrogen and T blockers is starting to become scary, because at some point you're past the point of no return. I have heard from both my doctor and another trans person (from their personal experience) that erection problems can start within months (YMMV, obviously, and there are plenty of people who get them much longer than that). Also your testicles will eventually shrink and you become infertile. And I have to imagine if the testicles shrink that could affect your orgasm even if you can maintain an erection. I've also heard from one trans person that Viagra didn't work for them after their erections were gone. Which, if that's true for everyone or at least most people, would be permanent at some point (that's my understanding, anyway).

Any other advice or experience I have in this area is getting a bit too personal for me to answer here on the forums (just not comfortable with that) but if you have any questions about my experience in that particular area, feel free to PM me. I'm a pretty open book but some things I just don't want to talk about in an open forum, but as someone who's been on hormones for over a month now and experienced some of this, I'd be happy to share my experience so far. :) I know that's been really helpful for me during this whole thing.

Also, for anyone interested, the Trans* reddit threads are AMAZING. http://www.reddit.com/r/transgender/wiki/related

Edit: Oh, sorry, eversonpoe, I just saw this part.


yeah, my experience parallels yours pretty much, except that i have seen a lot of bailey's videos. in the most recent ones, you can tell that she is still having orgasms, but there's nothing coming out at all. it's a bit disconcerting, because as much as i don't like cumshots, seeing someone with a penis have an orgasm without seeing come is so out of the ordinary.

i wish there was a good source of info for this. :/

My understanding is that eventually your ejaculate at the very least changes color and consistency. Like I said, I have heard from people who have been able to maintain virility, but for how long I don't know. Whether it can be put off indefinitely for everyone or even just some people I don't know.

I will say this (noting the irony here), be very careful about information given to you from other trans* people. The stuff I'm certain about or almost certain about is stuff I've read over and over and over again over many years of research. After awhile you kind of get a feel for a lot of this stuff and I've learned a lot. But there have been times when people have given me very bad advice. I had a former therapist who runs one of my support groups tell me, flat out, that I should be on a trial run for "at least nine months." I very politely told him sure, thanks for the advice, but in my mind I was like, are you out of your fucking mind?! Yes, in nine months I very well may be infertile and not be able to get an erection again. I could- and this happens a lot- have full blown breasts. My brain is going to be changed from all the hormones, too. A nine month trial period is INSANE and when I mentioned it to my new therapist- who actually knows him- she completely agreed and even mentioned she wanted to talk to him about it because it's bad advice. I've also gotten bad advice from other trans* people, too, stuff that I know for sure isn't true but if I had listened to them I could have made a big mistake. So be careful. Consensus is the best thing you can get. That's why the reddit threads and message boards are so helpful because you get a wide variety of opinion. If you ask a question and 30 people answer the same way, pretty good chance they're correct, as opposed to some of the really bad misinformation that some well-meaning but uninformed members of the community will tell you.

Edit: But then I read a thread tonight on reddit about people who have had orchiectomies and they're still getting erections, so I don't know.

[icklekitty]

Consider also that not all women squirt. You'll be in that...demographic? Odds? You know what I mean. It could take it away, it could make no difference.

[ambergris]

Andreja Pejic (formerly known as Andrej Pejic) comes out as transgender:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/24/andreja-pejic-transgender_n_5619259.html

[theruiner]

Tomorrow officially makes two months on hormones. At this point, I'm leaning toward transition pretty hard. I still am not sure, but I'm just kind of going with the flow for now. I really don't want to stop the hormones at this point. The only problem is, while my testosterone is nearly non-existent (most men are around 200 - 600 or something like that, with 200 being on the very low side; I am at 12 right now) my estrogen levels are barely above normal for a male (40 - 80, mine are at 96). And while I am seeing some very real physical changes (albeit still in the beginning stages) my estrogen should be WAY higher at this point. The thing is, I'm still technically in a "trial run" so until I'm a bit more sure I can't really ask my doc to up the dose just yet. But I can't stay this low forever. At some point, probably soon, I will very likely ask to up my dose. Then, hopefully, things will start happening a bit more quickly.

Anyway, I am kind of surprised at myself that I've stuck with it for this long, considering how apprehensive I was when this "trial run" started. Now it may not even be a trial run anymore. I'm definitely past when I was supposed to stop (month or month and a half was the plan). And, like I said, I don't have any plans to stop at this moment. So...we'll see, I guess. In the meantime, I am enjoying the changes that have already occurred, however small (but definitely noticeable). I am definitely WAY more calm about this whole process than I was before. Yeah, seriously, really am leaning toward going all the way. Crazy.

[theruiner]

Sorry, double post. Sorry!

So, my doctor officially upped my estrogen dosage today. I'm officially at 6 mg a day, the highest dose they'll allow of this particular pill. I asked her if the physical changes were going to come on faster at the higher dose. "Yes, the physical changes are definitely going to come a lot faster." :D

[Dra508]

Sorry, double post. Sorry!

So, my doctor officially upped my estrogen dosage today. I'm officially at 6 mg a day, the highest dose they'll allow of this particular pill. I asked her if the physical changes were going to come on faster at the higher dose. "Yes, the physical changes are definitely going to come a lot faster." :D

What happened with the blood pressure issue?

[icklekitty]

Are you going to start coming out now? I am still a bit concerned that you're going this far with hormones without being sure that you want to transition.

[theruiner]

What happened with the blood pressure issue?Actually, that was the reason I went to the doctor, and while I was there about that I brought up how low my estrogen levels were and then she mentioned upping my dose. But yeah, the doctor put me on WAY too high a dose of T blockers. I'm taking Spironolactone to block my T. It's a high blood pressure pill (among other things) but it also has the effect of, in high doses, seriously blocking testosterone. I've heard from other trans* people that the regular dose is around 100, maybe 200, milligrams per day. My doctor had me on 400. And that's on top of my REGULAR blood pressure medication. Which, looking back, is kind of insane. I'm no doctor but that just screams bad idea to me. Of course, I trusted my doctor. Learned from that mistake.

Anyway, so I saw his physician's assistant the other day and in addition to upping my estrogen she cut down my Spiro to 200 a day. While I loved how low my T was (seriously, pretty much nonexistent) it wasn't worth the risk of fainting or worse. Hopefully my T won't go shooting up too far. She thinks it won't, but then she also thinks that 91 (which is where my estrogen levels are at) is "high." Um...no it's not. It's actually really, really low for a trans* person. From the other trans* people I have talked to, it should be 200, 300, 400, somewhere in that ballpark. My therapist said she thought it was supposed to be in the 200s. But here I have the physician's assistant saying, "Well, I mean 91 IS high, but if you want it higher I guess we can try it..." Which kind of frustrates me because I am starting to wonder if I'm taking an effective dose here at all. I guess I am, because I'm having actual physical signs that it's working (albeit relatively subtle) so something. is happening, but whether I'm actually at the right level or not I don't know. But I really don't think so. Between the Spiro disaster and my doctor's P.A. thinking 91 is high I think it might be time to find another doctor for this.



Are you going to start coming out now? I am still a bit concerned that you're going this far with hormones without being sure that you want to transition.Naw, not coming out any time soon. I don't plan on coming out until I'm close to going full time, which at this point is going to be at least a year from now. Though maybe I'll change my mind or maybe things will happen faster, but at the pace it's going I can't see it happening any time soon. No point in coming out to the rest of my family/friends until I need to. Besides, I'm out to most of my friends and my siblings and mom, which is the most important thing.

Also, I sincerely do appreciate your concern about going too far. My sister said the same thing to me the other day. I'm trying to be careful about this but it's getting frustrating. The thing is, I could make a pretty convincing list of evidence that I really want to transition and I could make an equally compelling list that I don't. There's evidence on both sides. What I will say is that I am feeling a lot calmer about things than I did before, and I have been leaning toward transition for weeks instead of being in the middle. Also, I keep coming back to the same argument that keeps getting made over and over in trans* circles when one questions whether or not they're trans: cis gendered people just don't question their gender like this. I didn't spend most of my life desperately wanting to be female, being severely depressed since I was 4 years old and having it consume my life if I wasn't trans*. So that I know for sure- I am, without a doubt, somewhere on the trans* spectrum. That still doesn't mean I should transition, necessarily, but a lifetime of wanting to, to one degree or another, is definitely evidence to that effect.

Anyway, there's just so much to it, too much to go into here. Truthfully, I don't know that I'm doing the right thing at the moment. What I do know is I don't want to go off these hormones, and I've been leaning in the direction of transition for awhile. And I have had a thought in the back of my mind that flutters around whenever I think of stopping, which is that I sincerely, truly, honestly don't know that I could- or would- live the rest of my life as a man. That that isn't an option. So there's that, too. And a lot more. But right now I'm just taking it day by day. I don't know if that's the right thing to do or not but that's what I'm trying at the moment.

[Dra508]

Maybe I'm assuming too much, but I went to the nail salon today and as I was waiting for my toes to dry, this woman came in with her son, probably 10 or 11 years old. She was coming in for a pedicure and her son wanted one too. Then he changed his mind and wanted his nails done (I saw that he already had polish on his toes) and also wanted watermelon decals on all the fingers. I helped translate some of the pricing for the mom since the woman who owns the place, though she tries hard, has a really thick Vietnamese accent.

Am I reading into this too much or is this a really fantastic mom?

[eversonpoe]

fantastic mom. the kind of mom that all moms should aspire to be.

[theruiner]

No, she's a fantastic mom. :)

Actually, I have the exact opposite story, sadly. One of the supervisors at work was talking about how she took her son with her when she went to get her nails done and she was saying that he asked if he could get his nails done too and she told him no, because, "No son of mine is going to get their nails done!" I just shook my head when I heard that.

Also! Facial feminization surgery is kind of amazing, you guys.

http://i.imgur.com/J4GhBCe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bibJrzG.jpg

[Dra508]

I see nose job and brows shaped. Something else?

[icklekitty]

My friend's just had that in Brazil. The recovery period was surprisingly quick, and she just has a few bruises around her eyes. This time she had the top half of her face done, the next one's for the jaw line.

Although I will reiterate that I know shitloads of women who just look like their dad with long hair.

[theruiner]

Yeah, FFS is definitely on the agenda for me at some point down the line, unless hormones do amazing things to my face. Which they probably won't. There will be some change, but not enough. But that's way down the road.

Edit: Also, if I hear one more trans* person say, "I've been on hormones three months and I'm already a C cup!" I'm going to fucking scream.

I know the process is slow and it's different for everyone, but I see so many people who were way ahead of me at this point. Ugh.

It's not so much a matter of patience as it is wondering if I'm on the right level of hormones to do anything. Because you can say, well, it just takes longer for some people, but if your hormone levels aren't high enough (and mine are not even in the normal range) then you're probably just spinning your wheels and not getting anywhere. Wasting time. So it's hard to tell if I'm just spinning my wheels and need to be on a higher dose, like, yesterday or if they are having the intended effect and this is the normal rate of change.

[icklekitty]

What are your drugs/doses if you don't mind divulging?

[theruiner]

I'm on 6 mg of estrogen a day and 100 mg of sprio (T blocker).

Those are normal doses, but I was on 4 mg a day of estrogen previously, which is also a normal dose, and my estrogen level was only at 91, which is really low. I'm hoping that bumping it up to 6 mg will help but if 4 mg was 91 I can't imagine two extra milligrams a day is really going to make that much of a difference. :/

[allegro]

Does your insurance cover this?
This must be expensive!

[Sarah K]

Here is an interview from a lovely young lady that I kind of used to know back when she was performing drag at a bar I used to frequent. Following her journey has been nothing short of amazing.

http://redefiningrealness.tumblr.com/post/92875458659/i-am-redefining-realness-precious-davis

She has also been listed in the 30 Under 30 list for Chicago, and was named on the Trans 100 list this year. And Laverne Cox even gave her a shout out on Wendy Williams not too long ago.

I didn't know her very well. I spoke with her a handful of times. We had a lot of mutual friends. She's so incredibly sweet, and it's great to see her reaching all of this success after all of the struggles that she endured while living in Nebraska.

[theruiner]

^^Thank you for sharing that! I will definitely be reading that when I have some time this weekend. :)


Does your insurance cover this?
This must be expensive!
I'm actually not sure. I think so. Either way, estrogen and Spiro are actually not that expensive, at least in pill form. I pay...I think it's $8 a month for the estrogen and the Spiro is under ten, but I don't remember the exact figure.

Now, there are other forms of estrogen that are WAY more expensive. There's one that comes in a pellet that they stick under your skin and I've heard they can run close to a hundred bucks a piece, and you need like three or four at a time. But they last for 6 months and they give a steady stream of estrogen 24/7, unlike pills which lose their strength as the day goes on. The only problem with pellets is you have to be absolutely sure this is what you want because once they go in, they can't take them out. You just have to let it run its course. So if you get one put in and the next day you change your mind, you're stuck, and you're going to have estrogen pumping through your blood for the next 6 months, along with whatever changes they may make, and there's nothing you can do about it. Which...sounds kind of awesome to me, but logically I know I'm not sure enough to do that yet.

There's also progesterone but that's when you're a bit further along, from what I gather. That specifically really helps with breast growth. Though the estrogen is supposed to do a pretty good job on its own.

[allegro]

I was curious because right now I'm on LoLoEstrin which is a 10mg combo of estrogen and progesterone and it's costing me $42 per month and that's with insurance and Obamacare because it's not generic and no combo is available at that low dose that's generic and Blue Cross are cheap bastards (this is Federal "Cadillac" insurance LOL). Such bullshit. I can't take a higher dose because of my migraines.

[icklekitty]

I'm on 6 mg of estrogen a day and 100 mg of sprio (T blocker).

Those are normal doses, but I was on 4 mg a day of estrogen previously, which is also a normal dose, and my estrogen level was only at 91, which is really low. I'm hoping that bumping it up to 6 mg will help but if 4 mg was 91 I can't imagine two extra milligrams a day is really going to make that much of a difference. :/


FWIW I was on Spiro for a year and it did absolutely jack shit; apparently one of its side effects is feminisation. So your frustrations may be chemically/medically grounded. I saw results (re: head hair loss and too much body hair) when I switched to prostate cancer meds. Flutamide/Finasteride (which I think is also Propecia for hair loss).

I'm pretty sure my oestrogen pills are why I'm an F cup...I've been on it for 15 years though!

[theruiner]

Actually, the Spiro is working great. It was the estrogen I was worried wasn't high enough.

All that may be a mute point now, though. Today something changed. Right now, I don't feel nearly as strongly as I did. For a solid month I was very much leaning toward transition. I felt better about things, I was pretty sure, I was feeling good. Today it felt like a switch went off. Now I'm very much leaning toward stopping the hormones and the transition and being done with this whole thing. I don't know what happened. I'm not happy about it. But it feels like something drastically changed today. And, frankly, I'm really sick of the back and forth. Really, really, REALLY sick of it. Transition or not, my brain needs to just figure out what it wants and do it. Seriously, an entire month of finally not bouncing back and forth, finally feeling like I was on the right path and within a matter of, literally, about two minutes, everything changed. I am very distressed right now.

[jessamineny]

Could it actually be a result of the hormones?

[theruiner]

It could be. That would be a really bad sign, actually. Because everything I've heard from people in the trans* community is, hormones will either feel right or they'll feel wrong. So if this is the hormones feeling wrong that means transition is wrong for me which means...well, it means I'm stuck as a guy for the rest of my life. And that's a shitty outcome.

The thing is, the first month of hormones I felt nothing. I was just as in the middle as I had ever been. The second month on hormones (the last month) I was feeling much better, leaning toward transition. You would think maybe the hormones were finally clicking, that it felt right.

Then, today, this happened. And my doc just upped my dose last week. So the most obvious answer is, the doc gives me a higher dose, I really start feeling it, and it feels wrong, I realize I'm not trans* and stop this dead in its tracks. I tried, I realized I didn't want this, I finally got my answer and the answer was no. But I refuse to give up yet. I refuse. I will not let this go yet.

Also, realizing I don't want this flies in the face of a lifetime of feeling otherwise. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And it's not like the feelings are totally gone. My biggest fear is realizing I don't want to transition- but not having the trans* feelings go away. So I'll spend the rest of my life miserable that I can't be a woman, depressed and lost and feeling as horrible about it as I've ever been, but knowing I can never transition, because when I get too far down the path my brain will swing the other direction. Forever trans*, never being able to do anything about it. And for awhile there I thought I had moved past that, I really thought things were looking up. Now I feel like I've lost it again.

[allegro]

Shit my estrogen is sky high, my hormones are driving me fucking nuts, and I'm female!

Maybe the hormones make you feel like that because, like, welcome to being female? Sometimes this sucks, too, but this is what we put up with (at least you'd never have periods and PMS).

[theruiner]

Maybe. I'll just have to wait and see how I feel in the coming days. But right now it doesn't feel any better. If it continues then I'm definitely stopping the hormones very soon. I guess I should at least be glad that if this is the way I really feel at least I found out before it was too late.

[jessamineny]

As someone who has fluctuating hormones naturally, I can tell you that it is possible for them to play havoc with emotions. That's why new mothers experience post-partum depression -- their hormones are fluctuating a great deal all at once. You might be experiencing a similar sort of phenomenon. Maybe ask around and see if others experienced something similar shortly after changing doses (not necessarily questioning things, but experiencing emotional flux). Your doctor might have insight as well.

The fact that this is only happening after your dosage was raised (since your estrogen levels were pretty low apparently) might actually be a positive sign. (That it's just the hormones being hormones, and not a "sign from above") :::hugs:::

[theruiner]

That actually makes a lot of sense. It got me thinking- I did struggle with this for so long, going back and forth for months, maybe it is the hormones just messing with my emotions and because that is such a sore spot for me that's what my mind started focusing on. I certainly hope so, because I really was feeling so much better and I was hopeful that I had finally started to go in a positive direction.

Thank you both for the support. :) You know, if this IS the hormones then that is kind of what I signed up for. ha ha. I knew that feeling crappy sometimes might be part of it and I wanted the whole experience, so...

[JessicaSarahS]

Shit my estrogen is sky high, my hormones are driving me fucking nuts, and I'm female!

Maybe the hormones make you feel like that because, like, welcome to being female? Sometimes this sucks, too, but this is what we put up with (at least you'd never have periods and PMS).

Yep. That's what it sounds like to me too.

[theruiner]

ha. I never thought feeling crappy could make me feel happy but thinking it might be the hormones actually cheers me up the more I think about it. Plus feeling some solidarity now and that feels great. :)

[JessicaSarahS]

ha. I never thought feeling crappy could make me feel happy but thinking it might be the hormones actually cheers me up the more I think about it. Plus feeling some solidarity now and that feels great. :)

My hormones are out of whack today and I'm having the shittiest day. Welcome! :D

[theruiner]

Well, it's been a couple of days. I've had my moments but I've been feeling better about things. Certainly better than when I posted the other day.

That is, until a few minutes ago when it just hit me all over again like a ton of bricks. But I'm trying to focus on the positive, and that is that I have been feeling better as the weekend progressed. So maybe things will even out again and I'll be back to "leaning toward transition" like I have been the last month. Or, fingers crossed, "decided that I'm definitely going through with this."

Speaking of positive things, I am pretty sure the hormones are actually affecting me. I didn't really have a problem crying before when needed. I've always been pretty in touch with my emotions so it wasn't like with some trans women where the hormones broke down years of emotional repression and they felt like they were finally getting in touch with their feelings. Plus lots of depression, especially lately (having a falling out with my best friend didn't help). BUT, it does seem that I am crying more than I used to. And maybe it's coming a little more easily than before. I was just sitting here a few minutes ago and started feeling bad about my gender issue again and it took probably 30 seconds, maybe less, before I just started crying pretty hard. I don't think I used to go from 0 to 10 that fast before. Which, believe it or not, I consider a really positive thing. It means these little blue pills are actually working.

Also, it does seem to me like my face has changed a bit. Meaning I can actually see it myself, because people have told me I look different but I just didn't see it. I was looking in the mirror earlier and thought, wow, I can actually kind of see it.

And I was very wary of saying anything about this, both because I wasn't sure I wanted to share this much information on the board and also because I wasn't sure if it would weird people out to talk about it, but there has been another interesting change that started about a month ago. Without going into too much detail, let's just say that I now have to be pretty careful when I give people hugs, because ouch.

[allegro]

theruiner

Ohhhhhh yeah OW didn't anybody tell you about that part?!?! Welcome to the 6th grade, girl! :-) You have arrived!!!

[theruiner]

ha ha ha ha!

Yeah. It's not just pain, there's a bit more physically, but not much. And it hasn't really changed since it started a little more than a month ago. But yeah. It's funny, it hurt but hugs didn't bother me until a couple weeks ago when I was leaving after hanging out with the family, and I gave my mom a hug and (silently) was like, ow! Damn! ha ha. I guess that tells me that SOMETHING is happening, at least.

[allegro]

Just WAIT lol it will get worse heh.

You'll feel like two excruciating nipples lol.

[theruiner]

I heard it even hurts to shower at a certain point.

[Dra508]

theruiner

Ohhhhhh yeah OW didn't anybody tell you about that part?!?! Welcome to the 6th grade, girl! :-) You have arrived!!!

Oh, she got rose buds. :D

[theruiner]

Well... ;)

After reading your post, Dra, I started thinking about all the changes that are going to happen to me if I continue and I just started smiling ear to ear.

[allegro]

LOL I remember when I got my first bra, my dad said "now that she's got a living bra, WHAT'S SHE GONNA FEED IT????" ugh.

pretty soon, you gonna need a bra so you don't get hurt every time you put on a shirt.

[Dra508]

pretty soon, you gonna need a bra so you don't get hurt every time you put on a shirt.
Then a sports bra because any running and you feel like the girls are going to be pissed if you don't lock em down good. Birth of the moob.

[theruiner]

It's insane to me that this is actually happening. Insane.

Yeah, I guess soon enough. I'm looking forward to the day that I actually need to wear one. :)

[allegro]

Soon, your nipples will be the bane of your existence. You'll need a bra solely as armor for your protruding extremely sensitive nipples.

And then we'll all celebrate :)

[Dra508]

And then we'll all celebrate :)

Nipplegasm!!

[theruiner]

Well...things are not going well. For the last few days I have had the growing feeling that this is completely wrong and I need to stop. It feels like my trans feelings are going away. Again. I don't know what the hell is going on but I know that if it continues I'm going to have to stop these hormones and soon. This is very, very frustrating and scary and depressing.

[Baphomette]

theruiner, do you think your depression is influencing these feelings?

[theruiner]

I honestly don't know. I really don't.

[Baphomette]

I honestly don't know. I really don't.I can't imagine what you're feeling right now, having a change of this magnitude in your life. But I know how long you've wanted this. And I also know that depression can make everything appear bleak, no matter how much progress has been made or how good things are going. Can you start charting your swings? Your current one began on the 17th, going by one of your FB posts. Did the negative trans feelings start at the same time? You sounded positive in this thread on the 11th.

[theruiner]

Well, I'm feeling better about things, though I'm still not sure what I'm going to do. But in the meantime, I am going to enjoy the happy moments when I can. And I can't believe I'm doing this, because I didn't think I would post a pic until much further into my transition, but I am starting to see some changes in my face, so now I want to share it. Heh.

I know there are things I need to work on. I can't do anything with my eyebrows right now because of work/not being out to everyone/etc., etc. And the dark circles under my eyes SUCK. And I am really self conscious about my weight. But whatever. I am seeing a change. Not a hugely drastic one, but I can see it happening. And I'm feeling much better about the way I look than I did before.

http://imgur.com/a/ItKOx#naSvHOb

[Baphomette]

Well, I'm feeling better about things, though I'm still not sure what I'm going to do. But in the meantime, I am going to enjoy the happy moments when I can. And I can't believe I'm doing this, because I didn't think I would post a pic until much further into my transition, but I am starting to see some changes in my face, so now I want to share it. Heh.

I know there are things I need to work on. I can't do anything with my eyebrows right now because of work/not being out to everyone/etc., etc. And the dark circles under my eyes SUCK. And I am really self conscious about my weight. But whatever. I am seeing a change. Not a hugely drastic one, but I can see it happening. And I'm feeling much better about the way I look than I did before.

http://imgur.com/a/ItKOx#naSvHOb

You look great, Ryan! The changes are subtle but still visible. Wow!!

Re: the dark circles - they're easy to manage, especially b/c of the whole "smokey eye" fad. just use undereye concealer first and then use power eyeliner to get a smudge effect. There's a MAC brush I use that's perfect for this. I have to use an eye drop that gives me the same kinda circles which is why I figured out what to do about 'em.

[Dra508]

theruiner

I think you have the good attitude right now, basically ride the waves and see where it takes you.

I really thought trolls where so 2007, but apparently not:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/21/anti-trans-trolling-spree-forces-wikipedia-to-ban-u-s-house-staffers-for-third-time/?onswipe_redirect=no&oswrr=1

[theruiner]

This looks kind of awesome.

http://www.avclub.com/article/against-mes-laura-jane-grace-star-web-series-about-208862

[theruiner]

You know, as great as the transgender community can be, you don’t get very much support if you realize you don’t want to transition anymore. The few times I have brought it up, and have seen others bring it up, people come out of the word work to try DESPERATELY to convince you that you are still trans, that you really do want this deep down, blah, blah, blah. Guys, it’s ok if I realize that this isn’t who I am. Really. It doesn’t invalidate you at all because someone realized this wasn’t for them.

This is hard enough as it is and to turn to your community for support only to have people trying to steer you in the wrong direction is really frustrating.

[icklekitty]

YOU'RE NOT A REAL TRANS, MAAN
DRAG QUEENS ARE OUR RACISM MAN
CROSSDRESSERS ARE MOCKING US, MAN

Yeah, I've seen a few of those. Talk about destroying your own cause.

[theruiner]

Ugh. I actually saw someone about a month ago go on a giant rant about how SHE was a "real woman" because the minute she realized she was trans she immediately threw out all of her male clothes and only wore female clothes 24/7 and considered herself a woman and it happened overnight and anyone who doesn't do that is "just not a real woman" like she is. She was seriously, like, furious that anyone would consider themselves a real woman if they eased into their transition, were only living part time, didn't immediately flip their life upside down, etc. You were just a poseur. It was seriously disgusting.

Also, lol at the woman on a different trans board who said that, until you get gender reassignment surgery if you wore female undergarments you were just "crossdressing." Because only women with actual vaginas were women. Women who were pre-op or non-op didn't count and were just crossdressing men. I wish I was making that up.

Anyway, I'm still unsure, which hasn't changed at all. The difference is I'm now getting to a point where changes are starting to become evident and I am going to have to force myself to stop the hormones very soon if I am not more sure. I've struggled with it for months but now I can actually see differences in my body (albeit still relatively subtle because, and maybe this is a good thing, I seem to be changing slower than pretty much every other trans person ever).

[DigitalChaos]

To clarify the story, NOT from a right wing site, this is what happened...

There were a couple of teachers who knew that they would be dealing with trans students this year. Since this was new for them, they asked about getting information on how to properly deal with this, so no students would feel left out. LPS then spoke with an outreach program who got back to LPS with some suggestions. Mostly, yes, addressing the class as "Everyone" or "students". There were also suggestions to not split the class up due to gender, etc. All common sense stuff. The "purple penguin" thing that the right wing news sites latched onto was COMPLETELY taken out of context.

Also, these are just helpful hints and suggestions so some kids don't feel left out. It isn't like there are strict rules about it or anything. It was simply some teachers wanting to get a head start on things.

I think it's great. I'm really, really happy to see my former school district taking the lead on this.

Ah, that makes more sense. I'll have to look up the actual context of the purple penguin thing then. I read it and was like "hoooly fuck that is the 'if I can't then nobody can' template that gets a lot of negative attention". No surprise that a right wing source would try to make everything fit that template though.


Since you seem informed, what age are the kids who are trans? Also, at what age can a group of kids realistically comprehend the difference between physical (what reproductive organs you are born with) and mental gender? And what is the accepted terminology to differentiate physical vs mental gender?

[Sarah K]

Since you seem informed, what age are the kids who are trans? Also, at what age can a group of kids realistically comprehend the difference between physical (what reproductive organs you are born with) and mental gender? And what is the accepted terminology to differentiate physical vs mental gender?

It stemmed from Irving, which is a middle school(6th - 8th grades).

Here are some articles on it from the local paper:

http://journalstar.com/news/local/education/lps-staff-s-transgender-training-concerns-parents/article_0b37dd75-758d-50c1-9deb-16901059bc5a.html#utm_source=journalstar.com&utm_campaign=hot-topics-2&utm_medium=direct

http://journalstar.com/news/local/education/lps-gender-issues-training-seeks-to-create-welcoming-environment-for/article_444f3b2e-40bf-54aa-8905-6f9597ce3f0b.html

http://journalstar.com/news/local/education/lps-superintendent-reacts-to-national-attention-directed-at-district-s/article_6bad25d6-98ee-57f6-ae59-9f95cfb14d65.html

I think those three articles give a solid idea of what went down.

And as far as what age can they "know", fairly young. Most trans people I know have felt like they were living in the incorrect body since they were young. And as far as what I know, physical traits are referred to as sex while gender expression can exist anywhere on a spectrum.

I'm admittedly still learning about this, though. eversonpoe, theruiner, and playwithfire are all much better resources for this topic.

[DigitalChaos]

Thanks. And yeah, same. I never really dug into it because I "got it" to begin with.
From a child mental development, they start off unable to comprehend sex/gender. The first thing they pick up is they physical differences because it is simple and obvious. Then they go for several years before they can possibly understand something that is much more mental like gender. I'd imagine you need certain parts of your brain formed to both understand it and to accurately identify as a gender. Just yesterday, my 4yo was talking about how he could become (or wanted to be) a girl. It was clearly mixed into the same area as when he wants to be a super hero/skeleton/baby/animal/etc. So for his age, he doesn't seem capable of processing it.

[theruiner]

My trans bat signal went off. Heh.


Just yesterday, my 4yo was talking about how he could become (or wanted to be) a girl. It was clearly mixed into the same area as when he wants to be a super hero/skeleton/baby/animal/etc. So for his age, he doesn't seem capable of processing it. I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but I can tell you that I absolutely knew at the age of four. There was no doubt in my mind. So, yes, I would say that you can process it that early. Many (though by no means all) trans people realize it around that age.

Which, of course, doesn't necessarily mean that any child who mentions wanting to be the opposite sex is necessarily transgender, just that it's possible.

[allegro]

It was clearly mixed into the same area as when he wants to be a super hero/skeleton/baby/animal/etc. So for his age, he doesn't seem capable of processing it.
When I was that age, I knew little brother and I had different body parts but I didn't understand "why," except that we peed differently (he stood up, I sat down, although lots of times he sat down, too, when no parental figure was looking to make sure that he was peeing the "boy" way of peeing, but he was sometimes too lazy to stand up). They were always trying to make me wear "girl" clothes and wear my hair in nice "girl" ways but that's just social gender bullshit, I hated dresses, they prevented me from climbing trees, and my hair was always a fucking twisted ratty mess. Does this mean I wanted to be a "boy?" Honestly, if you asked me that at the time, I would have told you that's a silly question, I wanted to be me, haha. But my parents let me have a train set, and "boys" toys, and I could have dolls, too. I knew I didn't like being a "girl" in all the "girly" ways that society forced girls to be girls, so my parents didn't force me to always be a girl, so then I didn't have to be and that problem was kind of solved for me. But I didn't understand at the time that being a girl meant that I would eventually have boobs or periods or all that stuff, I didn't know what my body parts were for, etc., I just thought being a "girl" meant being forced to wear frilly dresses all the time, or cooking and cleaning vs. working at a bank or owning a company like my grandpa and I didn't like that. So my grandparents bought me mini restaurant equipment so I could pretend that I owned a restaurant, and my grandma gave me an old tape adding machine so I could pretend that I owned a bank. But I never wanted to wear nail polish or anything like that. My brother and I would play "dress up" together and most the time we'd dress up like NUNS hahahahaha. We actually have photos in the family album of my brother and I cross-dressing and wearing each other's clothes!

Taking away forced gender roles helps ALL children. Really, it does. Clothing, peeing, boys taking their shirt off one way and girls another, toys, hair, all of this shit is society forcing children to conform to gender roles that society has assigned to us, and IT'S ALL BULLSHIT. I'm sure it's not a big newsflash that not all females like wearing dresses. I STILL don't like wearing dresses. I don't currently own one that fits. I don't like getting my nails done, I don't like putting on makeup, I don't like all that "girly" shit that supposedly makes me a "girl" blah blah blah. The more we get away from these forced gender bullshit roles, the better we'll ALL be. Forcing children into "Boys" and "Girls" categories is stupid and unnecessary. This was what the feminist movement was all about. The movement is where we got the "Ms." designation, which STILL drives a lot of people NUTS (but one that I still use). Why do they need to categorize children at all by gender? Making teachers "aware" of it is a good idea.

Jennifer Finney Boylan, who wrote "She's Not There," said she knew that she wanted to a be a girl instead of a boy when she was very young, and she vividly remembers a comment her mother made while ironing her father's shirt, "someday you'll wear shirts like this." And she didn't want to wear a shirt like that, which of course even as a male wasn't necessarily true. But obviously this is more than just about CLOTHES. It has to go way beyond the clothes we think we should wear as the "other" gender or what clothes we're forced to wear. It's the life we'd lead as the other gender, and identifying more with that life to the point of being miserable, and Boylan says that started, for her, as a child. Not forcing any gender roles on any children would definitely help all children. It would help all adults!!

But, calling children "penguins" is kinda dumb? Just call them "children." Maybe there should be a universal term, like "kid."

[DigitalChaos]

I'm now way more interested in this conversation. I guess I never thought of a boy wanting to do societally female things as "having a female gender" (and vice versa). So, if the societal forces are removed (as a parent has a huge ability to do) what is left for someone to feel they have a gender that is different from the sex they were born with?

The fact that I don't force societal gender norms in my kid might be a reason why I don't see gender identity becoming a thing for quite a while... probably around the time sexual orientation starts to come up. But I'm still wrapping my head around the foundation of this.

[allegro]

The fact that I don't force societal gender norms in my kid
Is a GOOD THING!!!

although, my (late) brother told me, when we were grownups, that there were a few disadvantages to being reared by a female, one of which being that he wasn't taught how to "take his shirt off like a boy" and he was in the old "school locker room" for the first time and another boy took his shirt off "like a girl" and was nearly pummeled for it by the other boys, and my brother quickly learned, by observation, how to do it the "boy" way so he wouldn't get his ass kicked for nonconformance.

Btw, Boylan said sexual orientation had nothing to do with it. Gender is a social construct but also an identity construct, vs "biological sex" (science, chromosomes, male, female, intersex). Sexual preference is completely outside of this construct.

[theruiner]

^^Absolutely, allegro. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with being trans. The two often get confused.

Also, on a side note, I read and enjoyed Boylan's book, though it's been years since I've read it. I've heard she put out a second book so I will probably have to track it down and read it, too.



I'm now way more interested in this conversation. I guess I never thought of a boy wanting to do societally female things as "having a female gender" (and vice versa). So, if the societal forces are removed (as a parent has a huge ability to do) what is left for someone to feel they have a gender that is different from the sex they were born with?Being in the wrong body. I can tell you that if you still took away all the socially enforced gender rules I would still be miserable. I distinctly remember being in elementary school and wishing my penis would go away. I remember crying myself to sleep at night because I couldn't change my body. I've had friends ask me, even recently, well, why can't you just crossdress? I understand it's hard for people to wrap their head around but this is about SO MUCH more than that.

There are people all over the gender spectrum, from non-conforming to gender queer to bi-gender to agender and the list goes on. So I can't speak for everyone's experience, but what I can tell you is that for people like me, there's no amount of societal change that is going to make this better. Hormones and, possibly, surgery are the only things.*

The thing is, I can't explain, and I suppose it would be difficult for someone who is not trans to understand (which is ok! I can't wrap my head around being cis, either, really) the pain I feel when I see members of the opposite sex. Am I jealous of the clothes? Sure. I love those clothes. But it's SO MUCH more than that. It's the voice. It's the body. No amount of clothes or behavior or anything short of actually physically transitioning is going to cure that pain for some people, and I suspect that goes for me, too. Actually, it's not just jealousy I feel when I see women- it's pain. Deep, excruciating, down to the bone pain. I don't think I can adequately put it into words in a way that fully explains it. At the end of the day I think the only way to truly understand it is to experience it and, you know, most people can't. Again, that's ok. Like I said, I can't understand the way it feels to be cis. Hell, on some level I can't understand what it's like to be FTM (female to male), although of course I think I understand it better than someone who isn't trans, but I don't identify at all with wanting to be male, so it's hard for me to put myself in their shoes, too. At least completely.

Also, to the mods- should we move this discussion into the Trans thread? I don't want to contribute to any more drift, but I think this is an important conversation. Anyone else want to jump over there? If people still want to discuss it further.


*assuming I still go through with it, which I'm still deciding. But even if I don't I don't see my feelings on this ever changing. I'm just going to put that disclaimer here so I can go on with the discussion without feeling like I'm not representing myself accurately.

[allegro]

theruiner, well, see, you summed it up beautifully, probably better than Boylan describing her childhood and the "shirt" story, in that it goes WAY beyond clothes, it's dysphoria, it's not liking your own body parts and wanting the OTHER body parts, and understanding that wearing dresses does not make you a "girl" because that's just gender bullshit, you can still wear sweatpants and no makeup if you had the girl parts. But you would need to have surgery to go that far.

But, yeah, this is way beyond calling kids "girls" or "boys." Which I think goes beyond if they're trans or not; I think it's important to stop doing that so we stop distinguishing them from a gender standpoint because IT'S FUCKING USELESS.

theruiner, maybe you should re-read "She's Not There" right now. It may give you a pick-me-up just when you need it.

[DigitalChaos]

^^Absolutely, allegro. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with being trans. The two often get confused.

Also, on a side note, I read and enjoyed Boylan's book, though it's been years since I've read it. I've heard she put out a second book so I will probably have to track it down and read it, too.


Being in the wrong body. I can tell you that if you still took away all the socially enforced gender rules I would still be miserable. I distinctly remember being in elementary school and wishing my penis would go away. I remember crying myself to sleep at night because I couldn't change my body. I've had friends ask me, even recently, well, why can't you just crossdress? I understand it's hard for people to wrap their head around but this is about SO MUCH more than that.

There are people all over the gender spectrum, from non-conforming to gender queer to bi-gender to agender and the list goes on. So I can't speak for everyone's experience, but what I can tell you is that for people like me, there's no amount of societal change that is going to make this better. Hormones and, possibly, surgery are the only things.*

The thing is, I can't explain, and I suppose it would be difficult for someone who is not trans to understand (which is ok! I can't wrap my head around being cis, either, really) the pain I feel when I see members of the opposite sex. Am I jealous of the clothes? Sure. I love those clothes. But it's SO MUCH more than that. It's the voice. It's the body. No amount of clothes or behavior or anything short of actually physically transitioning is going to cure that pain for some people, and I suspect that goes for me, too. Actually, it's not just jealousy I feel when I see women- it's pain. Deep, excruciating, down to the bone pain. I don't think I can adequately put it into words in a way that fully explains it. At the end of the day I think the only way to truly understand it is to experience it and, you know, most people can't. Again, that's ok. Like I said, I can't understand the way it feels to be cis. Hell, on some level I can't understand what it's like to be FTM (female to male), although of course I think I understand it better than someone who isn't trans, but I don't identify at all with wanting to be male, so it's hard for me to put myself in their shoes, too. At least completely.

Also, to the mods- should we move this discussion into the Trans thread? I don't want to contribute to any more drift, but I think this is an important conversation. Anyone else want to jump over there? If people still want to discuss it further.


*assuming I still go through with it, which I'm still deciding. But even if I don't I don't see my feelings on this ever changing. I'm just going to put that disclaimer here so I can go on with the discussion without feeling like I'm not representing myself accurately.

I'll move it over later today when I get to a computer if someone doesn't beat me. I was going to ask where the most appropriate place would be to split this thread to.


So, I think this pinpoints exactly how gender goes beyond societal factors. Thanks for taking the time to explain! Some questions, if you don't mind:

1 - Does this fall into the same realm as body dismorphia or similar topics? I think many people could understand the desire to lose weight or gain muscle mass but with much higher logistical hurdles and a negative (instead of positive) support from most others.

2 - most of the physical traits don't show until puberty. Would it be safe to say that the majority of problems (both introspectively and from peers) start around this time? Kids seem pretty asexual before then. I understand societal forces fuck this up from day one, so let's exclude that. I understand your comment about basic genetilia, but I'm attempting to weigh things on a time based perspective too.

3 - this is super tangential, but it has me thinking about other identity based categories and how society accepts them. I'm curious what anyone's thoughts are there. Race immediately comes to mind and that seems to be a "be proud of who you are" situation. Anyone who try's to act/look outside their race gets heavily ridiculed.

[theruiner]

So, I think this pinpoints exactly how gender goes beyond societal factors. Thanks for taking the time to explain! No prob!


1 - Does this fall into the same realm as body dismorphia or similar topics? I think many people could understand the desire to lose weight or gain muscle mass but with much higher logistical hurdles and a negative (instead of positive) support from most others. Admittedly, I don't know much about body dysmorphia. I can tell you that the few times I've seen it brought up in trans circles people seemed to be pretty adamant that the two were not similar. I Googled it just now and kind of glanced through a brief website on it and they don't seem the same (it seems like with body dysmorphia you are never happy with your body, no matter how much you change it, like the alarm in your head that says, "This still isn't good enough" never goes off. I have OCD so I can certainly relate to that feeling somewhat, though not about my body).


2 - most of the physical traits don't show until puberty. Would it be safe to say that the majority of problems (both introspectively and from peers) start around this time? Kids seem pretty asexual before then. I understand societal forces fuck this up from day one, so let's exclude that. I understand your comment about basic genetilia, but I'm attempting to weigh things on a time based perspective too. It's hard to say. Perhaps before then it was social (not being able to dress and act how I wanted, not being perceived as the correct gender/sex, etc.) and, like you said, the anatomy itself, but the pain was definitely amped up at puberty. Watching girls develop the right way while I developed the wrong way (which is the way it felt to me) was horrible. I was already insanely jealous and in pain about not being female but that definitely ramped it up to another level entirely because my body was wrong in so many more ways.

Actually, I should clarify that I don't really feel like my body is wrong in the sense that I look in the mirror and am disgusted by what I see (like some trans people feel). I don't feel uncomfortable in my body and I don't hate it. But I *do* hate the fact that I'm not female. So when I say my body felt "wrong" it wasn't that I was disgusted by my body or it felt foreign, but there was an overwhelming and unrelenting desire to have a female body, and seeing myself go one direction and girls go the other was what was so painful because I wanted what they had.

This actually has confused some trans people, too. "How can you not hate the body you have?" A lot of us don't. I don't hate it but I don't feel happy in it, either. I would be happy being female (at least, I think I would).

[DigitalChaos]

posts have been moved

[theruiner]

UGH. I've decided to stop hormones. I'm very, very anxious to get off them as soon as possible. I'd like to stop them today, cold turkey, but I don't know if I can. My doctor is only open a few hours today and will be long closed by the time I get off work, so if they need me to come in for a consultation to let me know how to get off these things I'm going to lose my mind (I don't know if I have to ween off them or can just stop taking them). I hope they can just get a message to me over the phone from the doctor but I have the feeling they're going to want me to come in for a visit so the doctor can tell me in person, which means I'll have to wait. Which means I might just stop taking them and hope for the best because I don't know if I can wait that long. I'm sure my anxiety and OCD issues don't help but man, I want off these things today. :/

[jessamineny]

I would urge you to wait until you get directions from your doctor. I'm basing this off what it's like to have female hormones biologically, but hormones don't just affect you physically. They have a significant impact on your emotions. I'd imagine cold-turkey would be something like what new mothers experience when they go through postpartum, maybe even worse.

And you're going through an extremely emotional time right now already, having just a few days ago ended your relationship with your best friend of 14 years. Adding any more emotional upset to the mix, especially something at such a fundamental level as your hormones, might be just plain traumatic.

Also, is it worth considering that this upheaval with your friend is actually the cause of what you're going through right now, and that the hormones are just affecting how you're reacting to that stress/those emotions? Maybe because everything is so new, you just haven't learned yet how to process that kind of stress with your changing body?

[allegro]

I know when I went off HRT cold-turkey, I got a helluva a fucking migraine for over two weeks. I'm still having fucking migraines.

Also, be careful not to attribute too much of your emotions to the hormones. You're going through a rough time right now, and this could just be plain old anxiety.

[theruiner]

^^Thanks, Allegro. Yeah, I don't think this is hormonally related. This is just plain old anxiety and depression.



I would urge you to wait until you get directions from your doctor. I'm basing this off what it's like to have female hormones biologically, but hormones don't just affect you physically. They have a significant impact on your emotions. I'd imagine cold-turkey would be something like what new mothers experience when they go through postpartum, maybe even worse.

And you're going through an extremely emotional time right now already, having just a few days ago ended your relationship with your best friend of 14 years. Adding any more emotional upset to the mix, especially something at such a fundamental level as your hormones, might be just plain traumatic.That's a good point. I just want off these things ASAP. I don't like the idea that it's going to continue making changes. I'm getting very close to a couple of physical changes that aren't reversible- and if that happens I don't know what I'm going to do. That would be a disaster.


Also, is it worth considering that this upheaval with your friend is actually the cause of what you're going through right now, and that the hormones are just affecting how you're reacting to that stress/those emotions? Maybe because everything is so new, you just haven't learned yet how to process that kind of stress with your changing body?It could be. But the truth is I've been on the fence about this pretty much the entire time I've been on hormones, almost five months now. And what has concerned me the entire time is, what happens when serious, permanent changes happen that I have to live with for the rest of my life and I'm STILL unsure I'm going to transition? These are not changes I can live with. Some of them can be corrected by surgery, at least one of them can't. And one of those changes I suspect is just on the horizon, if not two of them. So it's just getting too late in the game to continue until I'm much more certain.

[Dra508]

I'd imagine cold-turkey would be something like what new mothers experience when they go through postpartum, maybe even worse.
THIS. theruiner Wait to talk/see to the doc. Your anxiety is getting the best of you. Have you ever thought about meditating? Dead serious. Best thing I ever got into to calm me the fuck down.

[theruiner]

Thanks, Dra. Yeah, I've had a few people mention meditation. I might have to try it. It can't hurt to try, right?

I am feeling a bit better today. I'm still probably going to stop the hormones but if I do I suspect it will only be temporary. Right now I'm just not sure enough to continue, but I know I'm trans, and my need to transition has not gone away, so ultimately I'm probably going to end up back on them. Probably. Even now I am not entirely happy I have to stop the hormones, but I know it's the right thing. And I know that if some of these permanent changes happen, if I put it off and put it off until it gets to that point, that I am going to be in serious trouble, and I would regret it. But it's hard. Because every time I think I'm going to get off them I let myself get sucked back in again and then I put it off. :/ It's very troubling.

[JessicaSarahS]

Thanks, Dra. Yeah, I've had a few people mention meditation. I might have to try it. It can't hurt to try, right?

I am feeling a bit better today. I'm still probably going to stop the hormones but if I do I suspect it will only be temporary. Right now I'm just not sure enough to continue, but I know I'm trans, and my need to transition has not gone away, so ultimately I'm probably going to end up back on them. Probably. Even now I am not entirely happy I have to stop the hormones, but I know it's the right thing. And I know that if some of these permanent changes happen, if I put it off and put it off until it gets to that point, that I am going to be in serious trouble, and I would regret it. But it's hard. Because every time I think I'm going to get off them I let myself get sucked back in again and then I put it off. :/ It's very troubling.

What is scaring you about these changes? How do you envision yourself physically in the next five years?

[ambergris]

Thanks, Dra. Yeah, I've had a few people mention meditation. I might have to try it. It can't hurt to try, right?

I am feeling a bit better today. I'm still probably going to stop the hormones but if I do I suspect it will only be temporary. Right now I'm just not sure enough to continue, but I know I'm trans, and my need to transition has not gone away, so ultimately I'm probably going to end up back on them. Probably. Even now I am not entirely happy I have to stop the hormones, but I know it's the right thing. And I know that if some of these permanent changes happen, if I put it off and put it off until it gets to that point, that I am going to be in serious trouble, and I would regret it. But it's hard. Because every time I think I'm going to get off them I let myself get sucked back in again and then I put it off. :/ It's very troubling.

Hmm, is it possible to stay as you are right now, basically "half-transitioned". I mean, maybe binary identification isn't right for you. Maybe it's better you just do or are as you feel? Sort of intersexual?

[theruiner]

^^Yeah, people have brought that up to me, but I'm not non-binary, or gender fluid or anything. Though I appreciate the advice. :) I have no interest in doing this halfway, though. I'm either going to go all the way with this or I'm not. I would never be happy in-between.

And, to be fair, right now I'm really not in-between. I've been on these things almost five months and there have BARELY been any changes. I'm way, way behind where I should be. Which, considering where I'm at with this right now is probably a blessing in disguise. But it still kind of annoys me because I have a doctor who doesn't have a clue what she's doing. She was insisting three months ago that my estrogen levels were "high" even though I knew from doing tons of research that not only were they not high, they weren't even close to where they should be. But she upped my dose slightly and I stuck with it for three more months and then, lo and behold, barely anything has changed and I'm way behind. Just like I thought. But I tried to trust that she knew what she was talking about and I now know she didn't. But that still doesn't mean these changes I'm worried about can't happen soon, because things ARE changing, just slower than they should be.

[icklekitty]

I definitely agree that your "professionals" weren't the wisest. What's the situation like re: being able to get second opinions/choosing your specialists?

[theruiner]

Well, I have been dragging my feet a bit on finding a new therapist. I like my original therapist now but I still need a second opinion and she's so booked up that she can basically fit me in once a month, if even that. So she's not going to work. I did go to another one for a few sessions but she sucked so I stopped seeing her.



What is scaring you about these changes? How do you envision yourself physically in the next five years?Well, (and this might be TMI, so, be warned, everyone) but there's breast growth (which I already have some of, which may or may not be reversible depending on who you talk to). I'm much more concerned about the nipple changing, which really should have started by now but, thankfully, has not. That's not reversible except through surgery. And then there are changes to the male parts which are absolutely irreversible, even with surgery. And THAT is what scares me the most. If I end up transitioning it won't matter but if I don't (and there's a good chance I won't) that is not something I could live with. Like, I don't even know what I would do if that happened.

As far as where I'll be in five years, I honestly don't know. If I decide to transition I hope I will be physically female long before then. If I don't then I hope I haven't done too much damage to myself. Which is why I have to go off these things asap.

[theruiner]

Sorry for the double post.

So...I called my doctor's office, scheduled an appointment as soon as they could fit me in (a little over a week) so I can get off the hormones. Now I can be alternately depressed and relieved that I'm getting off of them.

[JessicaSarahS]

Sorry for the double post.

So...I called my doctor's office, scheduled an appointment as soon as they could fit me in (a little over a week) so I can get off the hormones. Now I can be alternately depressed and relieved that I'm getting off of them.

Sounds like it's for the best, especially with the uncertainty. Hope all goes well.

[Sarah K]

So, one of my roommates started questioning me about one of my other roommates.

He asked me if she was a "tranny", and if she was, why nobody asked him if it was okay before she moved in.

I said that I wasn't sure what her identity was. I told him that I didn't really feel that it was any of our business unless she chose to share any of that information with us willingly. I encouraged him to RESPECTFULLY ask her questions if he felt some overwhelming need to know more. He kept asking borderline offensive questions to which I just kept responding that he should speak with her.

Is this right? I mean, should I try to answer what general questions that I can? I wouldn't answer anything about her specifically, but I mean just about the topic as a whole. I dunno. It was really weird.

[theruiner]

Just my opinion, but I would just tell him it's none of his business and leave it at that. Honestly, it really, really shouldn't matter to him. At all. Why in he world he thinks anyone should have to ask him if it's "ok" with him that a trans* person moved in is beyond me. Or why he would care.

I just really don't get people. Are you going to date this person? No? Then STFU. (Aimed at him, not you, obviously).

[JessicaSarahS]

He asked me if she was a "tranny", and if she was, why nobody asked him if it was okay before she moved in.


What an asshole. It doesn't matter at all! And I hate when people use the word "tranny." :mad:

[sick among the pure]

He asked me if she was a "tranny", and if she was, why nobody asked him if it was okay before she moved in.

I want to punch your roomie so hard right now.

And on that note, I have to suddenly switch from my daily topical T to weekly injections and I am nervous as fuck. But I'm also kinda excited in a weird way because I feel like T shots are a weird kind of "right of passage" for trans men.
Still trying my hardest to save up for top surgery, and toying with the idea of setting up a kind of donation fund, but god damn I feel like I'll see another NIN show before I even meet with the surgeon again...

[eversonpoe]

What an asshole. It doesn't matter at all! And I hate when people use the word "tranny." :mad:

oh, have you seen the newest incarnation of our board troll, whose current username is "tensiontrannytrash"? yeah, i reported that shit IMMEDIATELY.

[Sarah K]

Yeah. When he opened with that word, I knew it was going to be bad.

I just keep thinking about it. Like, I don't want there to be any weird tension or some awkward confrontation between them, and feel like I could have helped or something. I really didn't know what to say in the moment.

[theruiner]

So, I've decided to do something a little crazy and I'm feeling pretty damn good about it.

I called my doctor a few days ago and scheduled an appointment for next week to go in and get off these hormones. I absolutely had every intention of doing that and had no second thoughts about it. Until, that is, I stumbled upon a random post on Reddit that changed things.

Now, I have no idea if this is true or not. I need to research it, but whether it's true or not it had a really positive effect so I'm pretty glad I came across it. Someone started a thread asking about going off hormones for awhile and possibly going back on them later or something like that (which is exactly what I've been thinking about...going off them might be temporary, I just need more time to figure this out without the ticking clock of physical changes hanging over my head while I do). And one of the people who responded warned them that, from what they had heard, once you have been on hormones for a few months, if you go off of them, they will never work again if you ever go back on. Which absolutely scared the shit out of me. I felt completely trapped- IF this is true (and I still don't know if it is, have to research that), then I'm really in a bad spot- do I stay on them and possibly make changes that I might regret for the rest of my life? Do I go off them and just resign myself to being stuck in the wrong body for the rest of my life? If I stay on them and decide to transition then great. If I get off them and decide I don't really want to transition after all then great. But what if I stay on them and realize, too late, that this isn't for me? What if I get off them and then realize that I can't live the rest of my life like this, only to have to face the cold reality that I might never be able to change it now, that I'll be stuck in my original form forever and there's no going back? There is still a VERY good possibility that I am going to ultimately decide to transition.

So that fucked me up. Got really depressed and scared. And then I remembered an idea that I had been playing around with for awhile now. Everything I've heard about San Francisco- from other trans people, from my therapist, from just sort of general knowledge- is that it is an EXTREMELY trans* friendly place. I mean, I know that's the sort of stereotype but I've heard people say that it really is true. I remember someone from my support group years ago saying something like, "The minute you get off the plane you're in an instant safe zone, and you can be whoever you want and no one's going to bother you."

I wouldn't even think about so much as running to the store dressed up at this point (since hormones haven't really changed much of anything yet) but in San Fran? Assuming people are right (and I really hope they are) that might be a place I can go and actually feel comfortable being myself. It would give me a chance to dress and live how I want and actually really test this out and see how it makes me feel.

So that's what I'm doing. I'm cancelling my doctor's appointment and waiting to go off the hormones, at least for a little while longer. I'm hoping I can get a Friday off work so I can leave on a Thursday and come back on Sunday, giving me four days and, most importantly, two FULL days to act and dress how I want and just go out into the world as me. And see how that feels. Knowing me, I will probably come back just as conflicted as ever, but at least I can say I tried. It might (fingers crossed) actually help me figure out if I really want to go through with this (I suspect I do). And maybe the decision whether to stay on hormones or get off them will become clear.

Now, IF it's true that you can't go back on them after you've gone off because they won't work anymore, and if this trip doesn't clear things up, then I've got a pretty huge decision to make. I could honestly see myself going either way. But I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to my trip. Besides the gender thing, I really, really love San Francisco, and haven't been since I was a kid. I never had the chance to really explore the city, so I'm going to go and do some touristy stuff. What sucks is that I'll basically be by myself the whole time, but I'm trying to remind myself that this trip is kind of a necessity, and whether I have someone to hang out with or not, there's a very legitimate reason why I should go. Besides, I do have a couple of friends that live nearby so maybe I'll see if they want to grab dinner one of the nights I'm there.

Anyway, I'm really sticking with this. It's impulsive and it's going to be expensive but I think I owe it to myself to try. I feel good about it. I feel like I'm really trying to go in a positive direction here. We'll see how it goes.

[Dra508]

Have fun in SF. Being impulsive can definitely be a good thing.

[Sarah K]

I have a friend out that way. I can ask him for tips of some local stuff to see.

I'm impulsive as fuck, to my detriment at times. But it's fun. :D

[theruiner]

^^That's awesome! Thanks! Yeah, let me know. I definitely could use some advice on some fun things to do out there.

[theruiner]

Officially 5 months on hormones. This is an admittedly flattering (read: slimming) angle, but I can't stop looking at this stupid picture. And I know, I know I could change my mind, but my initial reaction, my feeling on this right now is: I can't imagine going back. I don't want to go back now. I'm starting to see someone staring back that makes me happy. Maybe I'm finally getting over the hump (fingers crossed). Maybe.

But either way, right now I'm feeling pretty great. Anyway, here's said picture (I can't believe I'm posting pictures so soon).

http://i.imgur.com/A6SHo09.jpg

[eversonpoe]

you're looking gorgeous. i hope that you can find the right balance in your emotions and stick with it because it really does seem like it's making you happy (most of the time), and if you can break through that barrier where you feel comfortable with yourself, you'll be in great shape to continue.

<3

[theruiner]

^^You just made my day. Seriously. Thank you!

Yeah, I'm hoping it sticks this time. Honestly, the more I think about it the more sure I am that I really don't want to go back at this point. The thought of going back to the way I was, erasing the progress I've made and having to start over at square one is really starting to become unthinkable. I want this momentum to continue. Heck, I'm even seriously thinking about (read: am almost certainly going to) starting laser on my chest and abdomen (though I'm still nervous about starting on my face but I'm going to have to soon if I really am going to keep going). But yeah, right now I'm feeling pretty great about it and I'm trying to focus on that and not freak out too much about it.

[theruiner]

I love this SO MUCH.

http://i.imgur.com/KyRJ9WT.png

[eversonpoe]

I love this SO MUCH.

http://i.imgur.com/KyRJ9WT.png

that is so freakin' adorable. that little smile in the last panel.

i definitely think that (in ANY situation) the over-zealousness of some people to label EVERYTHING can be problematic. whether it's discussing music and its genres or something far more serious and personal, like gender identity. the label you put on it should be what YOU feel most comfortable having on it. and if you don't want to label it, then don't.

[Dra508]

Note: There's a long road to understanding among the masses. My bf told me the other day that one of the guys he works with was telling him about a meeting he had with a potential customer, a large hotel chain. He said to him "I just had a meeting with a cross dresser." WTF! I sort of gave it to him as he lost an opportunity to learn and to teach. /head desk.

[icklekitty]

You need to google Andrew O'Neill. He's "labelly" closer to a transvestite; he dresses in womens clothes every day and wants to look like a girl, but is happy in his body, voice, mannerisms etc. He's just recorded a radio show which I went to see which will air in December; I will try to link it at the time. Prepare your VPNs! He's an ambassador for The Queer Alternative too.

[theruiner]

This is probably the best analogy for being trans I've ever heard:


For cis people, gender is like wearing a shirt that fits. Sometimes it itches for a sec, but by and large you don't really notice you're wearing it throughout the day. For us, gender is like wearing a shirt that's a size too small. It's constantly pinching and itching. Sometimes we can forget about it for a sec, but it's always noticeable and the only way to fix it is to put on a bigger shirt.

As seen on Reddit. Love it.

[Sarah K]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/08/transgender-kid-rapping_n_6124062.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

[marodi]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/gay-south-florida/article4055600.html

This is absolutely disgusting. Shame on the family of this woman. I know it must be hard to understand and accept what she was going through but to erase completely who she was after she died is unacceptable.

At least many of her friends and co-workers will remember her as she truly was: a beautiful, vibrant woman. Rest in peace Jennifer.

[slave2thewage]

Ugh, fucking 4chan:

http://www.transadvocate.com/4chan-plans-genocide-against-transgender-women_n_14746.htm

[eversonpoe]

Ugh, fucking 4chan:

http://www.transadvocate.com/4chan-plans-genocide-against-transgender-women_n_14746.htm

what the fuck? the lengths people will go to in order to spread hate never fails to surprise me.

[theruiner]

^^And the first comment! UGH. I really hate people sometimes.

[theruiner]

UGH.

So my coworker saw something under a blanket in our parking lot and thought it might be a body (spoiler alert: it wasn't). She told my boss and my boss told me and a coworker to go investigate. Why us? Because we're men. Or "men" in my case. So that hurt. Then, on our way out the door, she's like, "Thanks, guys! You're both so manly!"

UGH. I hate that. I've always hated that. I wanted so much to be like, "Actually, I'm not a man. And please don't call me that." Wanted to, but didn't. But I HATE when people do that. "Oh, can you help me carry this? You're such a strong GUY." No, STOP IT. I really look forward to no one saying that to me again (not that anyone should be reinforcing gender stereotypes anyway, but this especially hurts and I will be glad when people at least won't be stereotyping me wrong anymore).

[theruiner]

Today makes 6 months on hormones. Unreal.

(Also, triple post...sorry!)

[theruiner]

Aagghh! Sorry, I have way too many posts in a row, I know. But this thread doesn't get much activity anymore so...yeah. That's why. But still, I feel bad.

Anyway, I wanted to share this. A friend of mine grabbed an old pic of me from a few months ago and put it up with my latest pic (that I took just after the 6 month mark on hormones). They seem to be doing something because my face has definitely filled out. My friend said it looks much softer. I've still got a long way to go but at least it seems like it's getting there.

Disclaimer: I'm wearing makeup in the latest picture (on the right) and I don't think I'm wearing any in the first picture. BUT I still think there's a difference that you can't attribute to makeup.

So...ta-da. I feel so damn narcissistic right now.

http://i.imgur.com/TlfTMyn.jpg

[playwithfire]

OMG YOU LOOK SO GOOD

Caps

[theruiner]

Thank you! You have no idea how great that feels to hear.

Yeah, I just e-mailed that pic to my therapist (we just got done having a phone session and she hasn't seen me in person in awhile so I wanted to show her what I look like now). She was like, yeah, there's no doubt any more that you're changing, it has definitely affected your face. :D

[Dra508]

So...ta-da. I feel so damn narcissistic right now.

[

You shouldn't feel that way. This is important to you so it's important to us, your interwebz friends. I can't articulate the difference with a physical attribute like "your nose is narrower" or "your neck is thinner" , but here is definitely a change, a softness. Way to go. I'm happy this makes you happy.

Edit: binge watching Transparent on Amazon after hearing the creator's interview on Fresh Air today.

[Magtig]

There was this douchebag at the Xmas party I went to last night. At the end of the night one of my friends who invited me was very upset about his behavior. She was right that he was a douchebag, but when I asked, 'Oh, was that the guy whose date was tall?' She replied, with an incredible amount of venom & disgust, 'You mean the chick with the dick!?' His date hadn't done anything wrong, and I wasn't even sure she was trans but she did look that way.

I wish I would have reacted a little differently, but I guess I did okay. I said, 'Oh, I have absolutely no problem with that even if she does have a dick, but that guy was an asshole.' Now if I ever want to take a trans date somewhere I'm going to feel uncomfortable around her (my "friend"). Finding out about the ugly side of a person you thought you liked is so depressing. I can't get it out of my head today. I grew up with enough shaming bullshit from religion. It's pretty hard to tolerate that crap from supposed liberal forward thinking friends.

[orestes]

Finding out about the ugly side of a person you thought you liked is so depressing.

(Side note: I'm learning this firsthand right now. :| )

[eversonpoe]

There was this douchebag at the Xmas party I went to last night. At the end of the night one of my friends who invited me was very upset about his behavior. She was right that he was a douchebag, but when I asked, 'Oh, was that the guy whose date was tall?' She replied, with an incredible amount of venom & disgust, 'You mean the chick with the dick!?' His date hadn't done anything wrong, and I wasn't even sure she was trans but she did look that way.

I wish I would have reacted a little differently, but I guess I did okay. I said, 'Oh, I have absolutely no problem with that even if she does have a dick, but that guy was an asshole.' Now if I ever want to take a trans date somewhere I'm going to feel uncomfortable around her (my "friend"). Finding out about the ugly side of a person you thought you liked is so depressing. I can't get it out of my head today. I grew up with enough shaming bullshit from religion. It's pretty hard to tolerate that crap from supposed liberal forward thinking friends.

you handled it ok for the first time ever being in a situation like that and, especially, being caught off guard by a friend. it's hard to confront friends about fucked up behavior, because you never know if they're going to respond by acknowledging their mistake or by becoming defensive. so i think you did pretty well. yeah, you could have said "...but that guy was an asshole, and your'e being one now!" but that probably wouldn't have gone so well haha.

[Magtig]

In my revisionist history version of the event I would have said, 'Hey, that guy's an asshole, but if you have a problem with him dating trans chicks then you have a problem with me dating trans chicks, and that would actually hurt coming from a friend. I just don't see how his dates gender has any relevancy.'

Unless someone has a better suggestion of what to say in this situation.

[eversonpoe]

In my revisionist history version of the event I would have said, 'Hey, that guy's an asshole, but if you have a problem with him dating trans chicks then you have a problem with me dating trans chicks, and that would actually hurt coming from a friend. I just don't see how his dates gender has any relevancy.'

Unless someone has a better suggestions of what to say in this situation.

that is actually perfect, in my opinion.

[Dra508]

Not to apology for the gaffe, but I think a lot of folks don't truly know how to navigate this area. I have a friend who used to say 'he-she' and really didn't know that was offensive.

[Magtig]

There's an awful lot of confusion for sure, but this wasn't one of those cases.

However, I'm definitely in favor of moving away from the PC police state we find ourselves in right now. The height of this ridiculousness came when RuPaul was attacked for using "tranny" on Drag Race. You may not personally like the term, but RuPaul is the enemy? Really?!

RuPaul's own response to the controversy is particularly illuminating. Shortly after the incident she was interviewed by Marc Maron on the WTF podcast, and she responded by saying that if you're going out into the world expecting people to use the right words in order for you to be okay, you're going to be in for a rough ride. She added that we need to assess the intent behind the words people say in context with what we know about their character. When Jonah Hill basically feels as if he has to humiliate himself on national television, a guy who had a history of supporting gay rights, we might be going a little overboard. But assessing a person's character or past requires thought and understanding. Going redzone when someone uses a word you don't like, on the other hand, doesn't. Even worse, it makes people think that they're activists when they're really just the word police. Words are cheap. Actions aren't.

So, Dra508, your friend may have used the term 'he-she' but he might have been doing so without any bad will or intent. It's easy enough to tell people, "I'd prefer if you used the term 'X'." It's hard to volunteer or run a shelter for homeless LGBT people (http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/the-forsaken-a-rising-number-of-homeless-gay-teens-are-being-cast-out-by-religious-families-20140903) who have been exiled from their families.


youtu.be/QWKHx1ExoQY


youtu.be/PMz80FKusUA

[theruiner]

Finally starting to work on my voice. I bought this voice lesson thing months ago and finally stopped being lazy and started working on it. I feel really good about it. I'm glad I'm taking active steps toward my transition.

Also, should be starting laser hair removal soon (on my face and my body). I'm still nervous since I'm not completely sure I am going to transition, but I've been pretty confident that I'm probably going to for awhile now and I can't really put it off much longer. So I'm still somewhat undecided about the laser thing but leaning very heavily toward yes. I'm hoping it will become more clear as I get a consult and maybe schedule an appointment. Starting to get real.

Oh, also...so that side by side photo I posted on the last page...I thought the first photo was from months ago but I was wrong. I figured out that the first photo was from month 5 on hormones, and the second was from month 6. So my face changed a LOT in one month. Like, I don't know what happened but something must be clicking because that was a pretty drastic change in such a short amount of time. I hope it continues at that pace!

[Dra508]

So, Dra508, your friend may have used the term 'he-she' but he might have been doing so without any bad will or intent.
Yes, I absolutely believe in that particular case there was no ill will. At the same time, there are folks that belittle or disparate using the same words and go on to say they have no ill will. That's ignorance,

[allegro]

This is like women being called "bitch."

A bitch is a FEMALE DOG.

But, the feminist movement had to decide whether it wanted to focus on a stupid word, or on much bigger issues, like job opportunities, equal pay, education, childcare, political voice, birth control, legal capacity, etc. We ultimately chose the latter. "He-she" or "she-male" are both descriptive in a world trying to understand these gender issues.

Bitch is not.

Learn from the feminist movement: Choose your priorities.

P.s. We took back Cunt as ours: http://www.amazon.com/Cunt-Declaration-Independence-Expanded-Updated/dp/1580050751

[theruiner]

This is horrible and all too common.

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/read-17yearold-trans-girls-heartbreaking-suicide-note-20141230

[Dra508]

This is horrible and all too common.

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/read-17yearold-trans-girls-heartbreaking-suicide-note-20141230

Ugh. Sounds like her parents are going to deny her in death too.

[miss k bee]

Saw this on my FB newsfeed. Very sad story. Some of the comments from people on the article were just so backward and disgusting. RIP Leelah.

[slave2thewage]

Her parents are fucking monsters. RIP.

[theruiner]

Some of the comments from people on the article were just so backward and disgusting. RIP Leelah.I try to avoid comment sections under trans articles. They tend to be cesspools of hatred and ignorance. Every once in a while curiosity gets the best of me and I almost always regret it.

That being said, I read the comments under the Jezebel article on this yesterday and every single one was supportive. Which doesn't surprise me; I kind of figured that would be a safe to read.

[Sarah K]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/11/jeffrey-tambor-best-actor-tv-comedy_n_6432408.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

:)

[theruiner]

Stupid people and victim blaming piss me off.

Other person (after I pointed out that over half of all homicides of people in the LGBT community were trans people): "Yeah, well, I know a few trans people and I want to know how many of those people brought it on themselves! I mean, if you're not going to tell someone you're trans and then try to date them then you brought it on yourself!" Um...wat.

Also, apparently violence against trans people is a "first world problem" and we really shouldn't be wasting time or energy trying to solve it. It's awesome to have your (very real) fears invalidated by someone so incredibly ignorant and out of touch. I guess as long as it doesn't affect them then it's no big deal.

Of course, this person KNOWS some trans people, so obviously that makes them an expert! People can't be this stupid, right?

I debated whether to put this in the 'Little Things That Piss You Off' thread or here. Don't know which one was better but it seemed more appropriate here. :/

[orestes]

A sad statistic. (http://www.buzzfeed.com/dominicholden/two-transgender-women-of-color-killed-within-nine-days#.xrLeLPQo)

[theruiner]

Proposed Florida bill would make it illegal for transgender people to use the correct restroom (read: trans women would have to always use the men's room, even after transition and vice versa) INCLUDING single person bathrooms and violators could face jail time.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/02/06/florida_bill_would_imprison_trans_people_for_using _public_bathrooms.html

So, once again, trans people aren't really people and their safety isn't important at all. We're just freaks, we're not human, we should have to just go into the wrong bathroom and hope for the best. And if some of us get assaulted or murdered? Well, I guess that's what we get for being freaks.

In the meantime, at least the general populace is saved from the horrible, sick transgenders!!1

[Dra508]

That's ridiculous. I don't know how you enforce that anyway. It's not like you have a scarlet letter on your shirt. Ugh.


Oh yeah and Bruce Jenner.....

[theruiner]

So, I know this movie doesn't look very good. The acting seems pretty bad and the whole thing just seems kind of amateur (doesn't help that the trailer is VERY poorly made). BUT it's a romantic drama/comedy about a trans woman and the star of the movie is an ACTUAL trans woman instead of a cis actress for a change. And that's pretty awesome and rare. For that reason alone I want to see this. I'm hoping it's better than the trailer makes it seem. There were a couple of lines that made me laugh (I've watched the trailer three times and the last line made me laugh every time).

Also, I totally have a crush on Michelle Hendley now. Holy crap, is that woman gorgeous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNdW9TzxGrk

[Magtig]

EVOLVEFEST (https://www.facebook.com/evolvefestival)​ combines two things I despise: new age nonsense and bigotry. At first I thought those were odd bedfellows, but apparently there's a whole chunk of new agey people who are serious homophobes and anti-semites (which they're in denial about, of course). For example, they claimed that transgendered people simply aren't honoring their masculinity or femininity and that their real problem is narcissism. Oh, and they're here to help heal them. Does that remind anyone of anything? How about the so called 'pray the gay away' camps some Christian groups (sadly) still employ?

While I'm on that topic: New Age is really just Christianity-lite where negative thought replaces sin in an all-too-familiar system of shame and self loathing. Groups like Evolvefest prove my point. Read this post of theirs -an APOLOGY for a post that was way worse (http://sensiblereason.com/evolvefest-homophobic-anti-semitic-transformation-festival/)- and tell me it's not chock full of redneckian bigotry (it's not natural! it'll lead to peadophillia being legalized!) wrapped in fluffy "I love you and everyone else too" language: https://www.facebook.com/evolvefestival/posts/10152645447322011:0

:mad:

FUCK THESE CUNTS.

[theruiner]

For example, they claimed that transgendered people simply aren't honoring their masculinity or femininity and that their real problem is narcissism.
Oh, for fuck's sake. Where do people get these ideas? I swear, people will twist themselves into mental knots to avoid accepting reality at all costs. I don't get it. How are we a threat to people? What negative impact are we having on their lives by transitioning? Seems like it doesn't affect people at ALL yet some people (a lot of people) are obsessed with us. Like, it's this mental hangup where they truly believe (because of societal conditioning, let's be honest) that MEN SHOULD BE MEN and WOMEN SHOULD BE WOMEN and for someone who was living as a man (notice I didn't say IS a man) to transition is an ABOMINATION!!! And they seem to be REALLY interested in what's between our legs, which also perplexes me.

tl;dr: assholes

[Magtig]

Well, Evolvefest (god, that name) got cancelled because of their bigotry! http://www.edmtunes.com/2015/02/evolvefest-cancelled-light-ceo-hate-speech/

So fucking A. Yay!

[Dra508]

That David Bryson dude is a whack job. One of the evolvefest post contradicted itself like three times. I don't know, but hasn't past news taught us that those that swing the big moral stick are usually the ones "guilty" of these supposed immoral tendencies? So many of their past posts were contradictory too: we love everyone except.... And it's our constitutional right to blah blah blah.. Gay Wall Street. What?

yoga and political opinion just don't go together.

[Sarah K]

http://www.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2015/02/05/taja-dejesus-identified-as-woman-found-stabbed-to-death-in-stairway

http://www.buzzfeed.com/dominicholden/transgender-latina-woman-killed-in-san-francisco#.oc9kM5OxZ

Ugh.

[theruiner]

God dammit

[theruiner]

So, I finally had the opportunity (and got up the nerve) to tell my mom yesterday that I'm on hormones. I had already come out to her when I was younger but hadn't really updated her at all about any of this. Thankfully, it went really well. She had a couple of concerns, mostly making sure that this is what I really want and also concerns about my safety. Both legitimate concerns. Safety, especially, is a big one, and I have no idea how that's going to go once I'm full time (IF I continue, which I probably will) but at the end of the day it's a risk I'm willing to take because the alternative just isn't much of an alternative at all.

Also, this Sunday makes 9 months on hormones. 9 months! Kind of crazy how normal this has become. It's just a part of my life now. The fact that physical changes are going very, VERY slowly has also helped me adjust to it without it being too much too fast.

[Dra508]

Moms worry about everything. Mine still asks me not to stand in front of the microwave or use my mobile phone too long.

[theruiner]

^^This is true. And, really, those are very legitimate concerns, especially about safety. Other than that, though, she really took it well. I didn't sense any resistance or feel like she was in denial or anything. And it was nice to be able to open up to her a bit more. I've always kept my femininity hidden from her, even after I came out as trans, so yesterday was the first time that I could finally start to let me guard down. For example, we were talking about the physical changes that occur from hormones and I was like, "And, you know, the fat tends to shift away from the gut area and move toward the butt, thighs, hips and, obviously, boobs." And then I was like, "And it would be NICE if I got some fat in my hips and butt but as of right now not so much. Hopefully it'll happen at some point and it's just taking its time." That is NOT something I would have said to her before. I am just flat out saying like, yes, I really look forward to hopefully having a more feminine figure, including my butt. To my mom. That was kind of big for me. Or telling her that I wear makeup, that I went to San Francisco to be able to dress how I want and be out and about and see how it feels (I had only told her that I went up there to explore the city previously, which is also true but not the entire reason). So it was great to finally be able to catch her up on all that stuff and really tell her about the changes that are occurring and let her into that side of myself.

Also, I was really hoping that by telling her maybe it would be easier for me to figure this out or I would start to feel better and more sure about transitioning, instead of still feeling like I'm not totally sure. Like maybe that was part of my mental block about it. And while I'm not sure yet, I have to say that today I'm feeling MUCH better than I have in awhile. Not just feeling like a weight has been lifted by finally telling her (though there's that, too) but also I've just been feeling a lot more confident that I really want to do this, that I really want to go all the way with it. So we'll see if it lasts but it sure is nice.

[Dra508]

One of my favorite radio shows, State of The Re:Union that I unfortunately miss listening to a lot, had an episode a couple months ago called
trans families
http://stateofthereunion.com/trans-families/

as well as this short I did listen to tonight.

https://soundcloud.com/stateofthereunion/a-couple-twice-born

[theruiner]

^^I heard the original awhile back. Pretty interesting! I will have to try to listen to the new short when I get home. Thank you for sharing.

Also, this was awesome and really inspiring. Kind of hard to watch for me, because it brought out a lot of sadness about the childhood that I so desperately wanted and missed. But it's a pretty fantastic story. I didn't read the article (it is LONG) but the video is great.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/02/21/transgender-cincinnati-childrenshospital-hormone-therapy-enquirer/23697339/

[Dra508]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/07/world/asia/chinese-advocate-of-sexuality-opens-door-into-her-own-private-life.html?smid=nytcore-ipad-share&smprod=nytcore-ipad

[theruiner]

I can't even wrap my head around this.

http://time.com/3744918/jazz-jennings-transgender-clean-clear/

[Dra508]

One of my favorite radio shows, State of The Re:Union that I unfortunately miss listening to a lot, had an episode a couple months ago called
trans families
http://stateofthereunion.com/trans-families/
]

Finally got an hour to listen. I love how it was a Boston family profiled. Awwwww, hometown make me proud.

[Dra508]

hometown make me proud.
Boston continues impress me.

IYM

http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2015/03/genderfluid-identity

Clearly, I am just a empathetic learner here. I do really appreciate the time taken in this article to even articulate other views, very respectfully I must say.

[theruiner]

This is awesome.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/03/21/3710017_school-defends-decision-on-transgender.html?rh=1

[kel]

This is awesome.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/03/21/3710017_school-defends-decision-on-transgender.html?rh=1
YES!

finally something positive from here.

[theruiner]

The lord giveth and the lord taketh away.

http://www.fredericksburg.com/stafford-schools-reverse-restroom-stance-for-transgender-student/article_5b083186-d2a9-11e4-9b1d-2ffa10528634.html

[sick among the pure]

Oh, the fun of chest congestion when you wear a chest binder...
#transguyproblems

[theruiner]

That sounds awful. :(

Other than that, how is transition going?!

[theruiner]

On the one hand, this is kind of awesome. The amount of visibility here is great and I'm hoping it will help more people understand and accept trans people. On the other hand, reality shows. Ick. So there's that.

Still, seven new shows about trans people is kind of amazing. No FTM representation (seriously, WTF) but I guess it's a start.

http://www.autostraddle.com/7-tv-shows-about-trans-women-coming-soon-to-your-tv-284608/


And speaking of positive trans news, there's also this, which is pretty great.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/modcloth-hires-first-transgender-model-787269

[Dra508]

http://www.themavenofmayhem.com/2015/04/world-meet-my-daughter.html

Speaking of visibility.

[theruiner]

Morons try to make it so transgender people can't use the correct restroom in California.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/04/20/3648783/california-transgender-bathroom/


Respecting transgender identities in any government-run facility would become illegal, and citizens would be encouraged to hunt down transgender people trying to pee in peace for a cash reward.

Yup. That's a thing.

[Dra508]

theruiner listens to NPR so this won't be news for you.

http://www.npr.org/2015/04/19/400826487/transgender-man-leads-mens-health-cover-model-contest

[theruiner]

^^And to add to that...

Vogue's interview with Andreja Pejic is also their first ever profile of a transgender model:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/21/vogue-andreja-pejic_n_7109362.html


All this visibility is awesome. I am a little nervous about what's going to happen after Bruce Jenner's interview tonight but hopefully positive things will come of it. More exposure means more education which hopefully means more people being supportive.

[allegro]

I taped the interview, watching it now. I just LOVE Bruce Jenner, I have loved Bruce since the 76 Olympics, I was rooting for Bruce when he moved into the Malibu house, and split from Kris and finally started getting independent and I'll be first in line to be Bruce's best girlfriend.

[theruiner]

Man, so many thoughts about that interview.

First of all, I thought it was awesome. I feel that they handled the interview respectfully and they gave out a lot of very useful and important information and statistics about trans people in general. I think that someone going into that special without knowing anything about this topic would walk away with a pretty good understanding. I genuinely hope this does some real good and opens up some eyes and clears up some confusion for a lot of people.

As for Bruce himself (he specifically said he still prefers male pronouns for now; I completely understand that since I'm approaching my transition the same way) I didn't know much about him going in but man do I have an enormous amount of respect for him now. I was in tears in the opening two minutes watching his hesitation, his nervousness as he prepared to come out to the entire world. I could feel it in my bones- there's no turning back now. There's no putting this cat back in the bag. I'm going to tell the entire world that I'm a woman in just a few seconds. I can relate so much to that (on a smaller scale, of course) and it's something I have struggled with myself as I have thought about coming out to the remaining people in my life that don't know. You're not only opening yourself up to ridicule and cruelty but you're also going to permanently change how people perceive you. There's no going back on that. And you're also talking about maybe the most personal thing imaginable. For your entire life this was your secret, this was your struggle alone and now you're letting other people into that private world.

Ok, I'm projecting a bit but that is what I feel and I would imagine he has some similar fears. Or maybe not. But I felt for him because I could see the fear and the hesitation and I know those feels.)

I also love that he said he's not a spokesperson for the whole community, that he's speaking only for himself (I think I actually shouted at my TV, something like "THANK YOU!" I also had a few "amens" during the special, too.

Also, Jenny Boylan!!! That was awesome.

So, yeah. Those are my thoughts. Quite a few tears, a lot of gratitude and appreciation that he did this and is trying to do his part to make things better for the rest of us. I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. I hope it helps.

[Dra508]

^^ I dvr'd the interview, but don't have time to watch until tomorrow. Looking forward to it.

And for those of you who don't watch regular TV. I thought this was an interesting profile. Never mind the elite private schools in the story, they actually are more diverse and accepting, in a lot ways then your local schools.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/quiet-revolution-behind-word-transgender/

[Sarah K]

Oh my god I just watched the interview... I've spent the last two hours crying. Goodness.

While I love the Kardashians, I'm so glad that the focus remained on him telling HIS story instead of two hours of asking Kim what she thought about Bruce's story. They are obviously an important piece to his life, and I thought it was balanced.

I really thought that everything was handled very well.

[Jinsai]

the bit where he brought up his political leanings and naively implied that he expected (or at least hoped) politicians on the right side of the American political spectrum to be in any way allies to his identity was tragic.

[Dra508]

Bruce Jenner's mom. [emoji3]

[allegro]

the bit where he brought up his political leanings and naively implied that he expected (or at least hoped) politicians on the right side of the American political spectrum to be in any way allies to his identity was tragic.
Actually, never say never (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/12/transgender-republican-_n_5488529.html).

Also, The Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) is legislation proposed in the United States Congress that would prohibit discrimination in hiring and employment on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity by employers with at least 15 employees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_Non-Discrimination_Act). In 2013, 10 Republican Senators voted in favor of ENDA (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/11/07/who-voted-for-the-employment-non-discrimination-act/) which is actually quite a bit of progress:


How many Republicans voted for the bill?: 10. Sens. Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.), Susan Collins (R-Maine), Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.), Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah), Dean Heller (R-Nev.), Mark Kirk (R-Ill.), John McCain (R-Ariz.), Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska), Rob Portman (R-Ohio) and Patrick J. Toomey (R-Pa.).

According to this "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING SODOM AND GOMORRAH (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/10-republicans-vote-yes-as-transgender-enda-bill-passes-u.s.-senate)" web site:

Its protections for “transgender” workers would allow a biological male who self-identifies as a female to use the company's women's restroom or locker room. It would also allow employees to sue if they believed they had faced “discrimination” on the job, experienced a hostile work environment, or had not received a job because of their sexual preference or cross-dressing habits.

I'm actually surprised that people are surprised that Bruce is "politically conservative." Duh.

[theruiner]

This is a wonderful, absolutely spot-on and informative article disputing all the arguments people make against transgender children.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/melissa-mclaren/transgender-children_b_7147966.html

[Sarah K]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/storywall/transgender-today

The NYT is running an editorial series on trans lives.

[theruiner]

So, I know it's a reality show and a lot of it (though not all of it) feels fake but I have to say I'm hooked on this show "New Girls on the Block" on the Discovery Life channel. I've been buying the episodes on Amazon and am trying to pace myself so I don't burn through it too fast.

It basically follows this group of trans women who all happen to be friends. I really appreciate that they are really trying to show that they are all just normal people living pretty ordinary lives. It's kind of nice to see normal, everyday people who just happen to be trans on a show like this. I'm still kind of blown away by how much media the trans community is getting right now.

[sick among the pure]

Reading up on my insurance plan options right now, but where I work, the insurance plans all cover SRS surgery... I think I'll actually have chest surgery before summer. I'll finally be able to walk around without a 3-layer binder under my shirt slowly causing me to over-heat and die.

[theruiner]

Yup. This is what it's like.

http://manicpixienightmaregirls.com/may-22-2015/

[orestes]

Saw a trailer for this before Mad Max tonight and damn if it didn't make me tear up a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8W77vScGcg

[theruiner]

So, today makes one year on hormones. One year. Kind of crazy. And what's weird is just how normal it's become. It doesn't feel weird or novel anymore, which I guess is good.

The downside is that I still haven't figured out what I want to do or if I want to transition. Which sounds kind of insane a year into hormones. But I can't bring myself to go off them. I suspect I will end up transitioning but I'm still having such mixed feelings on it that I also think there's a possibility I won't. I don't know.

Anyway, so, yeah. I guess I just wanted to mark the anniversary somehow. I wish I was in more of a celebratory mood about it but I'm not. But it's something, I guess.

[allegro]

I guess if you're going to out your 65-yr-old female self in public, photos by Annie Leibovitz on the cover of Vanity Fair (http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/caitlyn-jenner-bruce-cover-annie-leibovitz?mbid=social_twitter) is the ultimate way to do it. (She looks like Jessica Lange.)

http://photos.vanityfair.com/2015/06/01/556c7a224ae56e586e457d3e_vf-cover-bruce-jenner-july-2015.jpg

https://youtu.be/0OwDp2LMVbg

[Conan The Barbarian]

Wow, I was expecting a train wreck, but she looks really good. Good for her.

[Dra508]

Wow........

[marodi]

She's gorgeous! She looks better than I do and I'm almost 20 younger.

Way to go girl!

[theruiner]

She looks amazing. I'm telling you, facial feminization surgery is magic.

[Dra508]

^^^^ seriously, magic.

I'm a bit disappointed by some of my FB friends who think they are open minded, but really their comments are pretty insensitive. :(

[theruiner]

Yeah, I've been a little nervous about peoples' reactions but so far so good.

She was brought up at work today but I quickly tried to change the subject. I really hope it doesn't come up tomorrow. I am going to excuse myself from the conversation if it does. Even if someone asks me directly, I won't talk about it with anyone.

[Baphomette]

My only negative reaction is about the magazine itself. I hate Vanity Fair for a variety of reasons. But those photos are amazing.

[allegro]

My only negative reaction is about the magazine itself. I hate Vanity Fair for a variety of reasons. But those photos are amazing.
I agree, I wish she (or her PR rep) would have chosen a magazine other than VF, but Annie's photos are great. And VF is a way better choice than People, natch, heh.

[DigitalChaos]

handing Caitlyn the Arthur Ashe Courage Award is kinda bullshit though. It's not too surprising in a world that hands awards out as a tool instead of the true meaning of the award (see: obama's nobel peace prize) but cmon... How about Renee Richards? Sylvia Rivera? Christine Jorgensen? How does a celebrity doing celebrity shit after transitioning display courage compared to them?

[DigitalChaos]

Yeah, I've been a little nervous about peoples' reactions but so far so good.

She was brought up at work today but I quickly tried to change the subject. I really hope it doesn't come up tomorrow. I am going to excuse myself from the conversation if it does. Even if someone asks me directly, I won't talk about it with anyone.

Is your workplace fairly negative toward transgender? I actually haven't heard anything where I work, but we are pretty positive. We actually made someone send out a company wide apology for causally using "tranny" when retelling a story. We even had a group of LGBT kids come by the office for an event and we made sure to ask about preferred pronouns.

[allegro]

handing Caitlyn the Arthur Ashe Courage Award is kinda bullshit though. It's not too surprising in a world that hands awards out as a tool instead of the true meaning of the award (see: obama's nobel peace prize) but cmon... How about Renee Richards? Sylvia Rivera? Christine Jorgensen? How does a celebrity doing celebrity shit after transitioning display courage compared to them?

The award has only existed since 1993, and is mostly a sports-related award. Jenner was, at one time, rated as the greatest athlete in the world (http://www.teamusa.org/News/2015/April/30/How-Bruce-Jenner-Became-The-Worlds-Greatest-Athlete), so there's that. If you weren't around during that time, it may be difficult to imagine Bruce on every box of Wheaties and nearly every American glued to their TV sets rooting for him during the Summer Olympics of 1976.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zLX4pe-Xs0


Last week, his daughter Kylie was on TV heli-skiing at Big Sky. The adrenaline thing is totally genetic.

[theruiner]

Is your workplace fairly negative toward transgender? I actually haven't heard anything where I work, but we are pretty positive. We actually made someone send out a company wide apology for causally using "tranny" when retelling a story. We even had a group of LGBT kids come by the office for an event and we made sure to ask about preferred pronouns.
It's hard to tell. It hasn't really come up very often. The only thing I've really overheard was a few coworkers in another section talking about it and it didn't seem like they were saying anything very positive (though I only heard part of the conversation in passing, so who knows). Thankfully I haven't heard anything else today and no one has asked me about it directly.

[DigitalChaos]

The award has only existed since 1993, and is mostly a sports-related award. Jenner was, at one time, rated as the greatest athlete in the world, so there's that.
I don't know the rules about posthumous application, but Sylvia died in 2002. Renee is still alive.
After all the initial hype fades and we get another story of the day, this isn't going to be something people think is award-deserving courage... especially compared to all the other's who displayed much more courage.

Renee was also an athlete and actually fought for transgender rights in sports all the way to the NY Supreme Court. And she fucking won! She then continued playing after transition.
She feared for her life while playing and needed bodyguards.

[allegro]

I don't know the rules about posthumous application, but Sylvia died in 2002. Renee is still alive.
After all the initial hype fades and we get another story of the day, this isn't going to be something people think is award-deserving courage... especially compared to all the other's who displayed much more courage.

Renee was also an athlete and actually fought for transgender rights in sports all the way to the NY Supreme Court. And she fucking won! She then continued playing after transition.
She feared for her life while playing and needed bodyguards.

Yes, I was actually alive and around when Renee Richards was playing tennis. In the end, awards don't mean anything. Not even the Nobel. And this is just some dumb award. No offense to Arthur Ashe, RIP, but Robin Fucking Roberts has gotten this award. She's a nice lady who has battled cancer and she's the host of Good Morning America. But I doubt that Renee is sitting around going "I deserve that fucking award!" She just wanted to play tennis.

But to be the World's Greatest (male) Athlete who won the DECATHLON and won Gold for the United States and was Mr. Gold Medal to America, but then publicly changes to a female at the age of 65? Sorry, dude, but that takes a LOT of fucking courage.

[DigitalChaos]

Yes, I was actually alive and around when Renee Richards was playing tennis. In the end, awards don't mean anything. Not even the Nobel. And this is just some dumb award. No offense to Arthur Ashe, RIP, but Robin Fucking Roberts has gotten this award. She's a nice lady who has battled cancer and she's the host of Good Morning America. But I doubt that Renee is sitting around going "I deserve that fucking award!" She just wanted to play tennis.

lol. Yeah, I highly doubt she is doing that... she always seemed pretty humble. Im just being annoyed about the abuse of awards... it feels like a recent thing connected to the "everyone gets a gold start" culture we have created. It further compounds the self-importance in the current generations when they see everyone around them getting awards while the more impacting historical individuals seem further lost to history. Jenner's involvement in reality TV and Kardashian further contaminate the situation of putting yourself on a magazine.

[DigitalChaos]

Can't believe I forgot to mention Manning, even though she has no relation to sports. Talk about insane courage (regardless of whether you think everything she did was right or wrong).

[allegro]

Im just being annoyed about the abuse of awards... it feels like a recent thing connected to the "everyone gets a gold start" culture we have created.
One posthumous award recipient was a coach at the Columbine massacre. Howard Cosell received this award. A bunch of people who were on the downed PA 9/11 plane received this award posthumously.

Jenner has indicated that she believes that what she is doing will "save lives" because it is estimated that the suicide rate among transgender teens is 40%; and if she can come out and have the courage to do this, maybe she can be inspirational to others. She says she receives mail every single day from people indicating that what she is doing has encouraged them, or they ask for help in their process. She says she has been trying to be "very careful" in "how" she does this, so that it's handled in the right manner, in a dignified and classy way, where she has control and nothing is "leaked," and that's why she has a PR person helping her out.

The VF article says that some of the envelopes are addressed simply to "Bruce Jenner, Malibu, CA" and they still arrive.

[Jinsai]

handing Caitlyn the Arthur Ashe Courage Award is kinda bullshit though. It's not too surprising in a world that hands awards out as a tool instead of the true meaning of the award (see: obama's nobel peace prize) but cmon... How about Renee Richards? Sylvia Rivera? Christine Jorgensen? How does a celebrity doing celebrity shit after transitioning display courage compared to them?

To imply that these people didn't receive due recognition on par with any "award" that you can give out is a disservice to everything but the concept of medals and awards. There's a reason you know their names, and it's not because they were handed a trophy.

[DigitalChaos]

To imply that these people didn't receive due recognition on par with any "award" that you can give out is a disservice to everything but the concept of medals and awards. There's a reason you know their names, and it's not because they were handed a trophy.
Well shit, I guess Nelson Mandela wasn't very recognized and needed that Arthur Ashe award a few years back to help him out.

[marodi]

The award has only existed since 1993, and is mostly a sports-related award. Jenner was, at one time, rated as the greatest athlete in the world (http://www.teamusa.org/News/2015/April/30/How-Bruce-Jenner-Became-The-Worlds-Greatest-Athlete), so there's that. If you weren't around during that time, it may be difficult to imagine Bruce on every box of Wheaties and nearly every American glued to their TV sets rooting for him during the Summer Olympics of 1976.




But to be the World's Greatest (male) Athlete who won the DECATHLON and won Gold for the United States and was Mr. Gold Medal to America, but then publicly changes to a female at the age of 65? Sorry, dude, but that takes a LOT of fucking courage.

Amen sister! I remember too watching the 76 Summer Olympics (aka the one that happened in my backyard and where we built that joke of a Stadium) and the 2 names that everyone remembers from it are Nadia Comaneci and Bruce (now Caitlyn) Jenner.

So yes, what she does now takes fucking courage indeed. And I admire and love her more for it than I did back in 76.

[allegro]

Well shit, I guess Nelson Mandela wasn't very recognized and needed that Arthur Ashe award a few years back to help him out.

Sometimes I think you don't actually read these posts, dude. Are you in a hurry or something? ("To imply that these people didn't receive due recognition on par with any 'award' that you can give out ..." and "There's a reason you know their names, and it's not because they were handed a trophy.")

Anyway, this ESPN award thing is just trolling in this thread.

[DigitalChaos]

Sometimes I think you don't actually read these posts, dude. Are you in a hurry or something? ("To imply that these people didn't receive due recognition on par with any 'award' that you can give out ..." and "There's a reason you know their names, and it's not because they were handed a trophy.") :rolleyes:
You should read what Jinsai quoted when making the statement. Jinsai's reply was a rebuttal to something that didn't exist. It also has an unstated logical conclusion of either A: Jenner is deserving of the award because Jenner hasn't had enough recognition (which would be bullshit) or B: Giving an award to someone less deserving is ok because it doesn't diminish those who were more deserving... also bullshit.. Yeah.. let's pretend Jenner's Olympic gold medal was given to a different athlete who placed last because "giving the guy who place last an award doesn't diminish the fact that everyone recognizes Jenner's superior performance" ... lol

[Dra508]

I think the timing was a bit unfortunate for giving Jenner that award today just because folks are making it about it being a publicity stunt and not the fact that Bruce Jenner did have success in a sport and also showed (is showing) courage in her life today. Robin Roberts same thing - she did play ball in college, she did overcome several bouts with cancer. Any of you want to understand that award, watch the doc on Jimmy V who received the first ESPY Courage award. :'(
DigitalChaos - the crack about Mandela needing the ESPY award to help him was unnecessary. Usually, what you say is really useful around here and often a great counter point for me. This one - nuh huh. Mandela spent so many years locked in a hole - he came out and did a lot of good including, putting a Rugby team together that helped his country come together. That's what ESPN is trying to highlight with this award - not one of these folks wants that award. They are just being recognized.